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Omniskeptical
04-10-2015, 02:46 PM
I was wondering what the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 .

John Reece
04-11-2015, 08:25 AM
I was wondering what the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 .

According to the critical apparatus in Nestle-Aland 28th edition, the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 is P75 א[+ symbol for original hand *.2b which Hebrew font will not allow me to display adjacent to upper right corner of א where it belongs] A B K L W Θ Ξ Ψ f1.13 33. 700. 892. 2542 aur f vg syc.p.h** samss bo.

The manuscript evidence for omitting καθ᾿ ἡμέραν is comparatively so weak that it is not even noted as a variant reading in textual commentaries such as those by Metzger and Comfort.

Omniskeptical
04-11-2015, 12:52 PM
According to the critical apparatus in Nestle-Aland 28th edition, the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 is P75 א[+ symbol for original hand *.2b which Hebrew font will not allow me to display adjacent to upper right corner of א where it belongs] A B K L W Θ Ξ Ψ f1.13 33. 700. 892. 2542 aur f vg syc.p.h** samss bo.

The manuscript evidence for omitting καθ᾿ ἡμέραν is comparatively so weak that it is not even noted as a variant reading in textual commentaries such as those by Metzger and Comfort.According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist. The other gospels don't add them either. The Family of Nuns and Priests and their children need to bleed like that in monetary terms.

John Reece
04-11-2015, 01:55 PM
According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist.

I will wager a $100 donation to TWeb that you cannot cite any documentation from any of the sources you have named that say "the words didn't exist".

If "the words didn't exist", they would not occur in Greek editions as diverse of the following:

Nestle-Aland 28th: Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

Textus Receptus: Luke 9:23 ἔλεγε δὲ πρὸς πάντας, Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτόν, καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

Tischendorf: Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

Westcott & Hort: Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

Omniskeptical
04-11-2015, 03:48 PM
Wilbur N Pickering, The Greek New Testament According to Family 35, page 134, note 18:
18αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP || 1 καθ' ημεραν P75A,B,W [13%] TR,OC,NU

f35 means Von Soden's collation. CP means Complutensian Polyglot. HF means Hodges and Farstad. RP means Robinson-Pierpont. It is a Catholic, Masochistic interpolation. It is easier to prove this one came from the vulgate.

John Reece
04-11-2015, 04:52 PM
According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist.


Wilbur N Pickering, The Greek New Testament According to Family 35, page 134, note 18:


18αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP || 1 καθ' ημεραν P75A,B,W [13%] TR,OC,NU

f35 means Von Soden's collation. CP means Complutensian Polyglot. HF means Hodges and Farstad. RP means Robinson-Pierpont. It is a Catholic, Masochistic interpolation. It is easier to prove this one came from the vulgate.

Where does it say "the words didn't exist"?

As for your comment that "It is easier to prove this one came from the vulgate", I would note that the Latin Vulgate is just one of nearly two dozen witnesses to the existence of the words καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, the primary and most important witnesses being Greek manuscripts.

Consider again the witnesses listed in the critical apparatus in Nestle-Aland 28th edition, wherein the manuscript evidence for reading καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 is as follows:

P75 א[+ symbol for original hand *.2b which Hebrew font will not allow me to display adjacent to upper right corner of א where it belongs] A B K L W Θ Ξ Ψ f1.13 33. 700. 892. 2542 aur f vg [(= Vulgata) represents agreement of the most important editions of the Vulgate in support of the same Greek reading.] syc.p.h** samss bo.

Omniskeptical
04-12-2015, 06:40 AM
Where does it say "the words didn't exist"?
18 αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP

Why isn't in the majority of manuscripts?

According to Pickering, Von Soden says 87% of his manuscripts or facsimiles had it.

John Reece
04-12-2015, 08:10 AM
18 αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP

Why isn't in the majority of manuscripts?

According to Pickering, Von Soden says 87% of his manuscripts or facsimiles had it.

You have changed the subject rather than responding to my question (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184558&viewfull=1#post184558).

You ignore my question; I ignore your question.

Omniskeptical
04-12-2015, 09:33 AM
You have changed the subject rather than responding to my question (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184558&viewfull=1#post184558).

You ignore my question; I ignore your question.Excuse me, 87% didn't have them according to the apparatus. It was a typo on my part. Yes, it says this somewhere in Von Soden. Otherwise, the Majority Text version wouldn't omit it.

No I didn't change the subject. You pretended to refute my answer, then I demonstrated that you were wrong by showing an accurate apparatus. I even told you it was Von Soden, but you didn't get any more specific in your response. You were specific on how specific I needed to be.

Omniskeptical
04-12-2015, 09:52 AM
Von Soden's greek new testament pdf volume 2, page 316
5557

John Reece
04-12-2015, 10:07 AM
Von Soden's greek new testament pdf volume 2, page 316
5557

Invalid.

Omniskeptical
04-12-2015, 10:15 AM
Invalid.Only if you don't understand the picture. Seriously, does it work?

John Reece
04-12-2015, 10:45 AM
Only if you don't understand the picture. Seriously, does it work?

Seriously, no: When I wrote "Invalid" I was copying the message I received when I clicked on the link:

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator."

Omniskeptical
04-12-2015, 10:48 AM
Seriously, no: When I wrote "Invalid" I was copying the message I received when I clicked on the link:

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator."How does one upload an image from their computer to Tweb? I did give the page number, and an inexact book title. Should I give you the download link?

John Reece
04-12-2015, 11:11 AM
How does one upload an image from their computer to Tweb? I did give the page number, and an inexact book title. Should I give you the download link?

I have no idea how such things work or what one does with them.

Omniskeptical
04-12-2015, 12:45 PM
There is more invested into the interpolation than I had previously thought. It is rarely admitted as not in the M-text, but the reading is never in the other gospels' indirect quoting the words. The only time is in Luke 9:23, and the Greek interpolation show signs of Modern Greek, and english influences. Kata does not mean each but rather according to, down from, or after.

John Reece
04-12-2015, 01:49 PM
There is more invested into the interpolation than I had previously thought. It is rarely admitted as not in the M-text, but the reading is never in the other gospels' indirect quoting the words. The only time is in Luke 9:23, and the Greek interpolation show signs of Modern Greek, and english influences. Kata does not mean each but rather according to, down from, or after.

Where to begin?

Let's take this one assertion at a time; otherwise, I will not be able to make sense of your many strange expressions.

First, please explain what you mean by "the reading is never in the other gospels' indirect quoting the words"? To what are you referring?

DesertBerean
04-12-2015, 02:08 PM
John, he's been put on vacation for a while due to his behavior elsewhere...

John Reece
04-12-2015, 02:14 PM
John, he's been put on vacation for a while due to his behavior elsewhere...

Thanks for the notice!

I'll just add some information that seems relevant to some of his assertions.

John Reece
04-12-2015, 02:48 PM
Kata does not mean each but rather according to, down from, or after.

Little do you know.

Here is the entry for κατά in A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature Third Edition (BDAG):


κατά (Hom.+) prep. (s. the lit. s.v. ἀνά beg., also LfgrE s.v. κατά 1346; with the gen. 74 times in NT; w. acc. 391 times in NT).
A. w. the gen.
1. marker of extension or orientation in space or specific area
a. of location that is relatively lower, down from someth. (Hom. et al.; LXX; Ath. 1, 4 κ. κόρρης προπηλακίζειν=to smack on one side of the head) ὁρμᾶν κ. τοῦ κρημνοῦ rush down (from) the bank (cp. Polyb. 38, 16, 7 κ. τῶν κρημνῶν ῥίπτειν; Jos., Bell. 1, 313) Mt 8:32; Mk 5:13; Lk 8:33. κ. κεφαλῆς ἔχειν have someth. on one’s head (lit. hanging down fr. the head, as a veil. Cp. Plut., Mor. 200f ἐβάδιζε κ. τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχων τὸ ἱμάτιον.; Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 499, 5 of a mummy ἔχων τάβλαν κ. τοῦ τραχήλου) 1 Cor 11:4.
b. of position relatively deep, into someth. (Od. 9, 330 κ. σπείους ‘into the depths of the cave’; Hdt. 7, 235; X., An. 7, 1, 30) ἡ κ. βάθους πτωχεία extreme (lit. ‘reaching down into the depths’; cp. Strabo 9, 3, 5 [419] ἄντρον κοῖλον κ. βάθους) or abysmal poverty 2 Cor 8:2. This may perh. be the mng. of πλήσσειν τινὰ κ. τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν strike someone deep into the eyes ApcPt 11:26 (cp. Demosth. 19, 197 ξαίνει κ. τοῦ νώτου; PPetr II, 18 [2b], 15 [246 BC] ἔτυπτεν αὐτὸν κ. τοῦ τραχήλου).—κ. γαστρός Just., D. 78, 3 for ἐν γαστρί Mt 1:18 (cp. Ath. 35, 2 τὸ κ. γαστρὸς ζῶον εἶναι).
c. extension in various directions within an area, throughout (so in Luke’s writings; Polyb. 3, 19, 7 κ. τῆς νήσου διεσπάρησαν; PGiss 48, 8 κ. κυριακῆς γῆς; Jos., Ant. 8, 297; SibOr 3, 222; 4, 24; 5, 305) γνωστὸν γενέσθαι καθ᾿ ὅλης Ἰόππης become known throughout all Joppa Ac 9:42. καθ᾿ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας 9:31; 10:37; Lk 23:5. φήμη ἐξῆλθεν καθ᾿ ὅλης τῆς περιχώρου 4:14.
2. down upon, toward, against someone or someth, fig. ext. of 1.
a. w. verbs of swearing, to denote what one swears by (Thu. 5, 47, 8; Lysias 32, 13; Isaeus 7, 28; Demosth. 21, 119; 29, 26; SIG 526, 4ff; 685, 25; UPZ 110, 39 [164 BC]; BGU 248, 13; Jdth 1:12; Is 45:23; 2 Ch 36:13) by ἐξορκίζειν (q.v.) Mt 26:63. ὀμνύναι (q.v.) Hb 6:13, 16. ὁρκίζειν (q.v.) Hs 9, 10, 5. Sim. ἐρωτᾶν κ. τινος request, entreat by someone Hv 3, 2, 3.
b. in a hostile sense, against
α. after verbs that express hostile action, etc. διχάζειν Mt 10:35. ἐπαίρεσθαι 2 Cor 10:5. ἰσχύειν Ac 19:16. κακοῦν 14:2. στρατεύεσθαι 1 Pt 2:11. φυσιοῦσθαι 1 Cor 4:6
β. after words and expressions that designate hostile speech, esp. an accusation ἔχειν (τι) κ. τινος have or hold someth. against someone Rv 2:4, 14, 20. φέρειν J 18:29. ἐγκαλεῖν Ro 8:33. ἐντυγχάνειν τινὶ κ. τινος 11:2 (TestJob 17:5). κατηγορεῖν Lk 23:14. ποιεῖν κρίσιν Jd 15a. τὸ κ. ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον the bond that stands against us Col 2:14. ἐμφανίζειν Ac 24:1; 25:2. αἰτεῖσθαί τι 25:3, 15. αἱ κ. τινος αἰτίαι vs. 27. εἰπεῖν πονηρόν Mt 5:11 (cp. Soph., Phil. 65 κακὰ λέγειν κ. τινος. X., Hell. 1, 5, 2; Isocr., C. Nic. 13; Plut., Mor. 2a λέγειν κ.; SIG 1180, 1 λέγειν κ. τινος; Just., A I, 23, 3; 49, 6 κ. τῶν . . . ὁμολογούντων). λαλεῖν ῥήματα Ac 6:13; cp. Jd 15b (TestDan 4:3; JosAs 23:15). μαρτυρεῖν κ. τ. θεοῦ give testimony in contradiction to God 1 Cor 15:15. ζητεῖν μαρτυρίαν κ. τινος testimony against someone Mk 14:55. ψευδομαρτυρεῖν 14:56f. ψευδομαρτυρία Mt 26:59. γογγύζειν 20:11. στενάζειν Js 5:9. διδάσκειν Ac 21:28. συμβούλιον διδόναι (ποιεῖν v.l.) Mk 3:6; σ. λαβεῖν Mt 27:1. ψεύδεσθαι Js 3:14 (Lysias 22, 7; X., Ap. 13; Ath. 35, 1 καθ᾿ ἡμῶν . . . κατεψεύσατο).
γ. after expressions that designate such a position or state of mind in a different way εἶναι κ. τινος be against someone (opp. ὑπέρ) Mk 9:40 (WNestle, ZNW 13, 1912, 84–87; AFridrichsen, ibid., 273–80); Ro 8:31; (opp. μετά) Mt 12:30; Lk 11:23. δύνασθαί τι κ. τινος be able to do someth. against someone 2 Cor 13:8. ἔχειν τι κ. τινος have someth. against someone (in one’s heart) Mt 5:23; Mk 11:25; Hs 9, 24, 2; cp. ibid. 23, 2, where the acc. is to be supplied. ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν J 19:11. ἐπιθυμεῖν Gal 5:17. μερίζεσθαι καθ᾿ ἑαυτῆς Mt 12:25. Cp. 1 Cl 39:4 (Job 4:18).—κατά prob. means against also in ἔβαλεν κατ᾿ αὐτῆς ἄνεμος Ac 27:14. ἐτελείωσαν κ. τ. κεφαλῆς αὐτῶν τὰ ἁμαρτήματα they completed the full measure of sins against their own head GPt 5:17.
B. w. acc. (so in the NT 399 times )
1. marker of spatial aspect
a. of extension in space, along, over, through, in, upon (Hom. et al.; OGI 90, 7 ἐκ τῶν κ. τ. χώραν ἱερῶν; PHib 82, 19; PTebt 5, 188; LXX; Just.; Mel., HE 4, 26, 5) Ac 24:12. καθ᾿ ὅλην τ. πόλιν throughout the city Lk 8:39 (cp. Diod. S. 4, 10, 6 καθ᾿ ὅλην τὴν Ἐλλάδα). ἐγένετο λιμὸς κ. τὴν χώραν ἐκείνην 15:14. κ. τὰς κώμας 9:6. κ. πόλεις καὶ κώμας 13:22 (Appian., Maced. 9 §1 and 4 κ. πόλεις; Just., A I, 67, 3 κ. πόλεις ἢ ἀγρούς).—κ. τόπους in place after place Mt 24:7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11 (Theophr., περὶ σημ. 1, 4 p. 389 W.; Cat. Cod. Astr. III 28, 11 ἐν μέρει τ. ἀνατολῆς κ. τόπους, VIII/3, 186, 1 λιμὸς καὶ λοιμὸς καὶ σφαγαὶ κ. τόπους). οἱ ὄντες κ. τὴν Ἰουδαίαν those throughout Judea or living in Judea Ac 11:1. διασπαρῆναι κ. τὰς χώρας τῆς Ἰουδαίας be scattered over the regions of Judea 8:1. κ. τὴν οὖσαν ἐκκλησίαν in the congregation there 13:1. τοῖς κ. τὴν Ἀντιόχειαν καὶ Συρίαν καὶ Κιλικίαν ἀδελφοῖς 15:23. τοὺς κ. τὰ ἔθνη Ἰουδαίους the Judeans (dispersed) throughout the nations 21:21. τοῖς κ. τὸν νόμον γεγραμμένοις throughout the law = in the law 24:14b. κ. τὴν ὁδόν along or on the way (Lucian, Catapl. 4; Jos., Ant. 8, 404) Lk 10:4; Ac 25:3; 26:13. τὸ κ. Κιλικίαν καὶ Παμφυλίαν πέλαγος the sea along the coast of Cilicia and Pamphylia 27:5; but the geographical designation τὰ μέρη τ. Λιβύης τῆς κ. Κυρήνην 2:10 prob. belongs to b: the parts of Libya toward Cyrene.
b. of extension toward, toward, to, up to ἐλθεῖν (γίνεσθαι v.l.) κ. τὸν τόπον come up to the place (Jos., Vi. 283) Lk 10:32. ἐλθόντες κ. τὴν Μυσίαν to Mysia Ac 16:7; cp. 27:7. πορεύεσθαι κ. μεσημβρίαν (s. μεσημβρία 2) toward the south 8:26 (cp. Jos., Bell. 5, 505). κ. σκοπὸν διώκειν run (over the course) toward the goal Phil 3:14. λιμὴν βλέπων κ. λίβα καὶ κ. χῶρον a harbor open to the southwest and northwest Ac 27:12 (s. βλέπω 8).—κ. πρόσωπον to the face (cp. Jos., Ant. 5, 205) Gal 2:11. ἔχειν τινὰ κ. πρόσωπον meet someone face to face (Thieme 19 has reff. for the use of κατὰ πρόσωπον as a legal formula) Ac 25:16. κ. πρόσωπον ταπεινός humble when personally present 2 Cor 10:1. κ. πρόσωπόν τινος in the presence of someone Lk 2:31; Ac 3:13. τὰ κ. πρόσωπον what lies before one’s eyes, i.e. is obvious 2 Cor 10:7. κ. ὀφθαλμοὺς προγράφειν portray before one’s eyes Gal 3:1.
c. of isolation or separateness, by (Thu. 1, 138, 6 οἱ καθ᾿ ἑαυτοὺς Ἕλληνες ‘the Greeks by themselves’; Polyb. 1, 24, 4; 5, 78, 3; 11, 17, 6; Diod. S. 13, 72, 8; Gen 30:40; 43:32; 2 Macc 13:13; Philo, Migr. Abr. 87; 90; Just., D. 4, 5 αὐτὴ καθ᾿ ἑαυτήν γενομένη; Tat. 13, 1 ἡ ψυχὴ καθ᾿ ἑαυτήν; Ath. 15, 2 ὁ πηλὸς καθ᾿ ἑαυτόν) ἔχειν τι καθ᾿ ἑαυτόν keep someth. to oneself Ro 14:22 (cp. Jos., Ant. 2, 255; Heliod. 7, 16, 1). καθ᾿ ἑαυτὸν μένειν live by oneself of the private dwelling of Paul in Rome Ac 28:16. πίστις νεκρὰ καθ᾿ ἑαυτήν faith by itself is dead Js 2:17 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 3, 43 τὸ σῶμα καθ᾿ αὑτὸ νεκρόν ἐστιν). ἡ κατ᾿ οἶκον ἐκκλησία the congregation in the {p. 512} house Ro 16:5; 1 Cor 16:19. κατ᾿ ἰδίαν s. ἴδιος 5. κ. μόνας (Thu. 1, 32, 5; Menand., Epitr. 988 S. [658 Kö.], fgm. 146 Kö. [158 Kock]; Polyb. 4, 15, 11; Diod. S. 4, 51, 16; BGU 813, 15 [s. APF 2, 1903, 97]; LXX) alone, by oneself Mk 4:10; Lk 9:18; Hm 11:8 (here, as well as BGU loc. cit. and LXX, written as one word καταμόνας).
d. of places viewed serially, distributive use w. acc., x by x (Arrian., Anab. 4, 21, 10 κ. σκηνήν=tent by tent) or from x to x: κατ᾿ οἶκον from house to house (PLond III, 904, 20 p. 125 [104 AD] ἡ κατ᾿ οἰκίαν ἀπογραφή) Ac 2:46b; 5:42 (both in ref. to various house assemblies or congregations; w. less probability NRSV ‘at home’); cp. 20:20. Likew. the pl. κ. τοὺς οἴκους εἰσπορευόμενος 8:3. κ. τὰς συναγωγάς 22:19. κ. πόλιν (Jos., Ant. 6, 73) from city to city IRo 9:3, but in every (single) city Ac 15:21; 20:23; Tit 1:5. Also κ. πόλιν πᾶσαν (cp. Herodian 1, 14, 9) Ac 15:36; κ. πᾶσαν πόλιν 20:23 D. κ. πόλιν καὶ κώμην Lk 8:1; cp. vs. 4.
2. marker of temporal aspect (Hdt. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, apolog.)
a. in definite indications of time: at, on, during (Hdt. 8, 17; Polemon Soph. B 43 Reader κατ᾿ ἐκείνην τὴν ἡμέραν ‘in the course of that day’) κατ᾿ ἀρχάς in the beginning (cp. ἀρχή 1b) Hb 1:10 (Ps 101:26). κ. τὴν ἡμέραν τοῦ πειρασμοῦ in the day of trial 3:8 (Ps 94:8.—Cp. Antig. Car. 173 κ. τὸν σπόρου καιρόν). νεκροῦ . . . ἀνάστασιν κατ᾿ αὐτὸν γεγονυῖαν ἱστορεῖ (Papias) reports that a resurrection from the dead occurred in his time Papias (2, 9; so, with personal names, Hdt.; Just., D. 23, 1 τοῦ θεοῦ . . . τοῦ κ. τὸν Ἐνώχ; Tat. 31, 2 Θεαγένης . . . κ. Καμβύσην γεγονώς). Of the future: κ. τὸν καιρὸν τοῦτον at that time, then Ro 9:9 (Gen 18:10). Of the past: κ. ἐκεῖνον τὸν καιρόν at that time, then (2 Macc 3:5; TestJos 12:1; Jos., Ant. 8, 266; cp. κατ᾿ ἐκεῖνο τοῦ καιροῦ Konon: 26 fgm. 3 p. 191, 25 Jac.; Just., A I, 17, 2; 26, 3 al.) Ac 12:1; 19:23. κ. καιρόν at that time, then Ro 5:6 (Just., D. 132, 1; cp. OGI 90, 28 καθ᾿ ὃν καιρόν), unless καιρός here means the right time (s. καιρός 1b end). κατ᾿ ὄναρ (as καθ᾿ ὕπνον Gen 20:6; Just., D 60, 5 κ. τοὺς ὕπνους) during a dream, in a dream Mt 1:20; 2:12 (s. s.v. ὄναρ for ins).
b. with indefinite indications of time: toward, about κ. τὸ μεσονύκτιον about midnight Ac 16:25; cp. 27:27.—8:26 (s. μεσημβρία 1).
c. distributively (cp. 1d): x period by x period: κατ᾿ ἔτος every year (s. ἔτος) Lk 2:41. Also κατ᾿ ἐνιαυτόν (s. ἐνιαυτός 1) Hb 9:25; 10:1, 3. [b]καθ᾿ ἡμέραν daily, every day (s. ἡμέρα 2c) Mt 26:55; Mk 14:49; Lk 16:19; 22:53; Ac 2:46f; 3:2; 16:5; 17:11; 19:9; 1 Cor 15:31; Hb 7:27; 10:11. Also τὸ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν (s. ἡμέρα 2c) Lk 11:3; 19:47; Ac 17:11 v.l. ἡ ἐπίστασις ἡ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν (s. ἐπίστασις) 2 Cor 11:28. κ. πᾶσαν ἡμέραν every day (Jos., Ant. 6, 49) Ac 17:7. Also καθ᾿ ἑκάστην ἡμέραν (s. ἡμέρα 2c) Hb 3:13. κ. μίαν σαββάτου on the first day of every week 1 Cor 16:2. κ. πᾶν σάββατον every Sabbath Ac 13:27; 15:21b; 18:4. κ. μῆνα ἕκαστον each month Rv 22:2 (κ. μῆνα as SIG 153, 65; POxy 275, 18; 2 Macc 6:7). κ. ἑορτήν at each festival Mt 27:15; Mk 15:6.
3. marker of division of a greater whole into individual parts, at a time, in detail, distributive use apart from indications of place (s. above 1d) and time (s. 2c)
a. w. numerals: κ. δύο ἢ τὸ πλεῖστον τρεῖς two or, at the most, three at a time (i.e. in any one meeting, cp. ἀνὰ μέρος) 1 Cor 14:27 (Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 42 κ. δύο καὶ τρεῖς; Jos., Ant. 3, 142 κ. ἕξ; 5, 172 κ. δύο καὶ τρεῖς). καθ᾿ ἕνα (on this and the foll. s. εἷς 5e) singly, one after the other vs. 31. κ. ἕνα λίθον each individual stone Hs 9, 3, 5; καθ᾿ ἕνα λίθον 9, 6, 3. κ. ἓν ἕκαστον one by one, in detail Ac 21:19; 1 Cl 32:1 (Ath. 28, 4 καθ᾿ ἕκαστον). εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς Mk 14:19; J 8:9; cp. Ro 12:5 (B-D-F §305; Rob. 460). κ. ἑκατὸν καὶ κ. πεντήκοντα in hundreds and in fifties Mk 6:40.
b. περί τινος λέγειν κ. μέρος speak of someth. in detail Hb 9:5 (s. μέρος 1c). κατ᾿ ὄνομα (each one) by name (ἀσπάζομαι . . . τοὺς ἐνοίκους πάντες κα[τ᾿] ὄνομα PTebt [III AD] 422, 11–16; Jos., Vi. 86) J 10:3; 3J 15 (cp. BGU 27, 18); ISm 13:2.
4. marker of intention or goal, for the purpose of, for, to (Thu. 6, 31, 1 κ. θέαν ἥκειν=to look at something; cp. Sb 7263, 6 [254 BC]; X., An. 3, 5, 2 καθ᾿ ἁρπαγὴν ἐσκεδασμένοι; Arrian, Anab. 1, 17, 12; 4, 5, 1; 21, 9; 6, 17, 6; 26, 2; Lucian, Ver. Hist. 2, 29; Anton. Lib., Fab. 24, 1 Δημήτηρ ἐπῄει γῆν ἅπασαν κ. ζήτησιν τῆς θυγατρός; 38; Jdth 11:19) κ. τὸν καθαρισμὸν τῶν Ἰουδαίων for the Jewish ceremonial purification J 2:6. κατὰ ἀτιμίαν λέγω to my shame 2 Cor 11:21 (cp. Jos., Ant. 3, 268 κ. τιμὴν τ. θεοῦ τοῦτο ποιῶν). ἀπόστολος . . . κ. πίστιν . . . καὶ ἐπίγνωσιν an apostle . . . for the faith . . . and the knowledge Tit 1:1 (but the mng. ‘in accordance with’ is also prob.).
5. marker of norm of similarity or homogeneity, according to, in accordance with, in conformity with, according to
a. to introduce the norm which governs someth.
α. the norm of the law, etc. (OGI 56, 33; Mitt-Wilck., I/2, 352, 11 κ. τὰ κελευσθέντα [as Just., D. 78, 7]; POxy 37 II, 8) κ. τὸν νόμον (Jos., Ant. 14, 173; 15, 51; Just., D. 10, 1 al.; Ath. 31, 1; κ. τοὺς νόμους Ἀρεοπαγείτης, letter of MAurelius: ZPE 8, ’71, 169, ln. 27) Lk 2:22; J 18:31; 19:7; Hb 7:5. τὰ κ. τ. νόμον what is to be done according to the law Lk 2:39 (cp. EpArist 32). κ. τὸ ὡρισμένον in accordance w. what has been determined 22:22. Cp. 1:9; 2:24, 27, 42; Ac 17:2; 22:3. κ. τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου Ro 2:16; 16:25a; 2 Ti 2:8. κ. τὸ εἰρημένον Ro 4:18 (cp. Ath. 28, 1 κ. τὰ προειρημένα). κ. τὰς γραφάς (Just., D. 82, 4; cp. Paus. 6, 21, 10 κ. τὰ ἔπη=according to the epic poems; Just., A I, 32, 14 κ. τὸ λόγιον, D. 67, 1 κ. τὴν προφητείαν ταύτην) 1 Cor 15:3; cp. Js 2:8. κ. τὴν παράδοσιν Mk 7:5 (Tat. 39, 1 κ. τὴν Ἑλλήνων παράδοσιν).—κ. λόγον as one wishes (exx. in Dssm., B 209 [not in BS]; also PEleph 13, 1; 3 Macc 3:14) Ac 18:14 (though 5bβ below is also prob.).—It can also stand simply w. the acc. of the pers. according to whose will, pleasure, or manner someth. occurs κ. θεόν (cp. Socrat., Ep. 14, 5 κ. θεόν; 26, 2; Nicol. Dam.: 90 fgm. 4 p. 332, 1 Jac. and Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 84 §352 κ. δαίμονα; Jos., Ant. 4, 143 ὁ κ. τοῦτον[=θεόν] βίος; Just., D. 5, 1 κ. τινας . . . Πλατωνικούς; Tat. 1, 3 κ. . . . τὸν κωμικόν) Ro 8:27; 2 Cor 7:9–11; κ. Χριστὸν Ἰ. Ro 15:5. κ. κύριον 2 Cor 11:17. Cp. 1 Pt 1:15. κ. τ. Ἕλληνας in the manner of the Greeks, i.e. polytheists PtK 2, p. 14, 1; 7. κ. Ἰουδαίους ln. 25.
β. the norm according to which a judgment is rendered, or rewards or punishments are given ἀποδοῦναι τινι κ. τ. πρᾶξιν or ἔργα αὐτοῦ (Ps 61:13; Pr 24:12; Just., A I, 12, 1; 17, 4 al.; κατ᾿ ἀξίαν τῶν πράξεων) Mt 16:27; Ro 2:6; 2 Ti 4:14; Rv 2:23. μισθὸν λήμψεται κ. τ. ἴδιον κόπον 1 Cor 3:8. κρίνειν κ. τι J 7:24; 8:15; 1 Pt 1:17; cp. Ro 2:2.
γ. of a standard of any other kind κ. τ. χρόνον ὃν ἠκρίβωσεν in accordance w. the time which he had ascertained Mt 2:16. κ. τ. πίστιν ὑμῶν acc. to your faith 9:29. κ. τ. δύναμιν acc. to his capability 25:15 (Just., D. 139, 4; Tat. 12, 3; cp. Just., A II, 13, 6 κ. δύναμιν). Cp. Lk 1:38; 2:29; Ro 8:4; 10:2; Eph 4:7. ἀνὴρ κ. τ. καρδίαν μου Ac 13:22 (καρδία 1bε).
δ. Oft. the norm is at the same time the reason, so that in accordance with and because of are merged: οἱ κ. πρόθεσιν κλητοί Ro 8:28. κατ᾿ ἐπιταγὴν θεοῦ 16:26; 1 Ti 1:1; Tit 1:3. κ. ἀποκάλυψιν Eph 3:3 (Just., D. 78, 2). οἱ καθ᾿ ὑπομονὴν ἔργου ἀγαθοῦ Ro 2:7. κατ᾿ ἐκλογήν 11:5 (Just., D. 49, 1). Cp. κ. τὴν βουλήν Eph 1:11 (Just., A I, 63, 16 al.); 2 Th 2:9; Hb 7:16. κ. τί γνώσομαι τοῦτο; by what shall I know this? (cp. {p. 513} Gen 15:8) Lk 1:18.—Instead of ‘in accordance w.’ κ. can mean simply because of, as a result of, on the basis of (Ael. Aristid. 46 p. 219 D.: κ. τοὺς νόμους; Jos., Ant. 1, 259; 278; Just., A I, 54, 1 κατ᾿ ἐνέργειαν τῶν φαύλων δαιμόνων; Ath. 7, 1 κ. συμπάθειαν τῆς παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πνοῆς; 32, 1 κ. χρησμόν). κ. πᾶσαν αἰτίαν for any and every reason (αἰτία 1) Mt 19:3. κ. ἀποκάλυψιν Gal 2:2. Cp. Ro 2:5; 1 Cor 12:8 (κ. τ. πνεῦμα = διὰ τοῦ πν.); Eph 1:5; 4:22b; Phil 4:11; 1 Ti 5:21; 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 3:5; κ. ἀνάγκην Phlm 14 (Ar. 1, 2; 4, 2 al.; Just., A I, 30, 1; 61, 10; Ath. 24, 2); IPol 1:3. ὁ κ. τὸ πολὺ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἀναγεννήσας ἡμᾶς 1 Pt 1:3.—καθ᾿ ὅσον (Thu. 4, 18, 4) in so far as, inasmuch as Hb 3:3. καθ᾿ ὅσον . . . , κ. τοσοῦτο in so far as . . . , just so far (Lysias 31, 8; Galen, De Dignosc. Puls. 3, 2, VIII 892 K.) 7:20, 22.
b. as a periphrasis to express equality, similarity, or example in accordance with, just as, similar(ly) to (TestJob 32:6 τίς γὰρ κ. σε ἐν μέσῳ τῶν τέκνων σου; Tat. 25, 1 κ. . . . τὸν Πρωτέα like Proteus; schol. on Nicander, Ther. 50: sheep are not burden-bearers κ. τοὺς ὄνους=as donkeys are).
α. κ. τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν μὴ ποιεῖτε do not do as they do Mt 23:3. κ. Ἰσαάκ just as Isaac Gal 4:28. κ. θεὸν κτισθείς Eph 4:24 (Synes., Prov. 2, 2 p. 118c κ. θεόν=just as a god). Cp. Col 3:10. κ. τὸν τύπον Hb 8:5 (Ex 25:40; Mel., P. 58, 424 [νόμον v.l.]). Cp. 5:6 (Ps 109:4); 8:9 (Jer 38: 32); Js 3:9.—κ. τὰ αὐτά in (just) the same way (OGI 56, 66; PEleph 2, 6; 1 Macc 8:27; 12:2; Just., D. 1, 2; 3, 5; 113, 3) Lk 6:23, 26; 17:30; Dg 3:1. On the other hand, the sing. κ. τὸ αὐτό Ac 14:1 means together (marriage contract PEleph 1, 5 [IV BC] εἶναι ἡμᾶς κ. ταὐτό; 1 Km 11:11). καθ᾿ ὃν τρόπον just as (2 Macc 6:20; 4 Macc 14:17) Ac 15:11; 27:25. καθ᾿ ὅσον . . . , οὕτως (just) as . . . , so Hb 9:27. κ. πάντα τρόπον in every way (PSI 520, 16 [250 BC]; PCairZen 631, 2; 3 Macc 3:24) Ro 3:2. κ. μηδένα τρόπον (PMagd 14, 9 [221 BC]; PRein 7, 31; 3 Macc 4:13; 4 Macc 4:24; Just., D. 35, 7; s. Reader, Polemo 262) 2 Th 2:3. Cp. Johannessohn, Kasus, 1910, 82. κατά w. acc. serves in general
β. to indicate the nature, kind, peculiarity or characteristics of a thing (freq. as a periphrasis for the adv.; e.g. Antiochus of Syracuse [V BC]: 555 fgm. 12 Jac. κ. μῖσος=out of hate, filled with hate) κατ᾿ ἐξουσίαν with authority or power Mk 1:27. κ. συγκυρίαν by chance Lk 10:31. κ. ἄγνοιαν without knowing Ac 3:17 (s. ἄγνοια 2a). κ. ἄνθρωπον 1 Cor 3:3 al. (s. Straub 15; Aeschyl., Th. 425; ἄνθρωπος 2b). κ. κράτος powerfully, Ac 19:20 (κράτος 1a). κ. λόγον reasonably, rightly (Pla.; Polyb. 1, 62, 4; 5; 5, 110, 10; Jos., Ant. 13, 195; PYale 42, 24 [12 Jan., 229 BC]) 18:14 (but s. above 5aα). λέγειν τι κ. συγγνώμην οὐ κατ᾿ ἐπιταγήν say someth. as a concession, not as a command 1 Cor 7:6; cp. 2 Cor 8:8. κ. τάξιν in (an) order(ly manner) 1 Cor 14:40 (τάξις 2). κατ᾿ ὀφθαλμοδουλίαν with eye-service Eph 6:6. μηδὲν κατ᾿ ἐριθείαν μηδὲ κ. κενοδοξίαν Phil 2:3. κ. ζῆλος zealously 3:6a, unless this pass. belongs under 6 below, in its entirety. κ. σάρκα on the physical plane Ro 8:12f; 2 Cor 1:17; also 5:16ab, if here κ. σ. belongs w. οἴδαμεν or ἐγνώκαμεν (as Bachmann, JWeiss, H-D Wendland, Sickenberger take it; s. 7a below). καθ᾿ ὑπερβολήν (PTebt 42, 5f [c. 114 BC] ἠδικημένος καθ᾿ ὑπερβολὴν ὑπὸ, Ἁρμιύσιος; 4 Macc 3:18) beyond measure, beyond comparison Ro 7:13; 1 Cor 12:31; 2 Cor 4:17. καθ᾿ ὁμοιότητα (Aristot.; Gen 1:12; Philo, Fug. 51; Tat. 12, 4 κ. τὸ ὅμοιον αὐτῇ) in a similar manner Hb 4:15b. κ. μικρόν in brief B 1:5 (μικρός 1eγ).
6. denoting relationship to someth., with respect to, in relation to κ. σάρκα w. respect to the flesh, physically of human descent Ro 1:3; 4:1; 9:3, 5 (Ar. 15, 7 κ. σάρκα . . . κ. ψυχήν; Just., D. 43, 7 ἐν τῷ γένει τῷ κ. σάρκα τοῦ Ἀβραάμ al.). κ. τὸν ἔσω ἄνθρωπον 7:22 (cp. POxy 904, 6 πληγαῖς κατακοπτόμενον κ. τὸ σῶμα). Cp. Ro 1:4; 11:28; Phil 3:5, 6b (for vs. 6a s. 5bβ above); Hb 9:9b. τὰ κ. τινα (Hdt. 7, 148; Diod. S. 1, 10, 73; Aelian, VH 2, 20; PEleph 13, 3; POxy 120, 14; Tob 10:9; 1 Esdr 9:17; 2 Macc 3:40; 9:3 al.) someone’s case, circumstances Ac 24:22 (cp. PEleph 13, 3 τὰ κ. σε; Just., A I, 61, 13 τὰ κ. τὸν Ἰησοῦν πάντα, D. 102, 2 τὰ κ. αὐτόν; Ath. 24, 4 τὸ κ. τοὺς ἀγγέλους); 25:14; Eph 6:21; Phil 1:12; Col 4:7. κ. πάντα in all respects (since Thu. 4, 81, 3; Sb 4324, 3; 5761, 22; SIG 834, 7; Gen 24:1; Wsd 19:22; 2 Macc 1:17; 3 Macc 5:42; JosAs 1:7; Just., A II, 4, 4, D. 35, 8 al.); Ac 17:22; Col 3:20, 22a; Hb 2:17 (Artem. 1, 13 αὐτῷ ὅμοιον κ. π.); 4:15a.
7. Somet. the κατά phrase, which would sound cumbersome in the rendering ‘such-and-such’, ‘in line with’, or ‘in accordance with’, is best rendered as an adj., a possessive pron., or with a genitival construction to express the perspective from which something is perceived or to be understood. In translation it thus functions as
a. an adj. (Synes., Kingdom 4 p. 4d τὰ κατ᾿ ἀρετὴν ἔργα i.e. the deeds that are commensurate with that which is exceptional = virtuous deeds; PHib 27, 42 ταῖς κ. σελήνην ἡμέραις; 4 Macc 5:18 κ. ἀλήθειαν=ἀληθής; Just., A I, 2, 1 τοὺς κ. ἀλήθειαν εὐσεβεῖς; Tat. 26, 2 τῆς κ. ἀλήθειαν σοφίας) οἱ κ. φύσιν κλάδοι the natural branches Ro 11:21. ἡ κατ᾿ εὐσέβειαν διδασκαλία 1 Ti 6:3; cp. Tit 1:1b. οἱ κ. σάρκα κύριοι the earthly masters (in wordplay, anticipating the κύριος who is in the heavens, vs. 9) Eph 6:5. Cp. 2 Cor 5:16b, in case (s. 5bβ above) κ. σ. belongs w. Χριστόν (as the majority, incl. Ltzm., take it): a physical Christ, a Christ in the flesh, in his earthly relationships (σάρξ 5). Correspondingly in vs. 16a κ. σ. would be taken w. οὐδένα: no one simply as a physical being.—JMartyn, JKnox Festschr., ’67, 269–87.
b. a possessive pron., but with limiting force (Demosth. 2, 27 τὰ καθ᾿ ὑμᾶς ἐλλείμματα [i.e. in contrast to the activities of others: ‘your own’]; Aelian, VH 2, 42 ἡ κατ᾿ αὐτὸν ἀρετή; 3, 36; OGI 168, 17 παραγεγονότες εἰς τοὺς καθ᾿ ὑμᾶς τόπους; SIG 646, 6; 807, 15 al.; UPZ 20, 9 [II BC] ἐπὶ τῆς καθ᾿ ἡμᾶς λειτουργίας; PTebt 24, 64; 2 Macc 4:21; Tat. 42, 1 τίς ὁ θεὸς καὶ τίς ἡ κατ᾿ αὐτὸν ποίησις; Mel., HE 4, 26, 7 ἡ καθ᾿ ἡμᾶς φιλοσοφία) τῶν καθ᾿ ὑμᾶς ποιητῶν τινες some of your (own) poets Ac 17:28. ἡ καθ᾿ ὑμᾶς πίστις Eph 1:15. ὁ καθ᾿ ὑμᾶς νόμος Ac 18:15. τὸ κατ᾿ ἐμὲ πρόθυμον my eagerness Ro 1:15.
c. a gen. w. a noun (Polyb. 3, 113, 1 ἡ κ. τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατολή; 2, 48, 2; 3, 8, 1 al.; Diod. S. 14, 12 ἡ κ. τὸν τύραννον ὠμότης; Dionys. Hal. 2, 1; SIG 873, 5 τῆς κ. τ. μυστήρια τελετῆς; 569, 22; 783, 20; PTebt 5, 25; PLond III, 1164k, 20 p. 167 [212 AD] ὑπὸ τοῦ κ. πατέρα μου ἀνεψιοῦ) τὰ κ. Ἰουδαίους ἔθη the customs of the Judeans Ac 26:3 (Tat. 12, 5 τῇ κ. Βαβυλωνίους προγνωστικῇ; 34, 2 ἡ κ. τὸν Ἀριστόδημον πλαστική). Cp. 27:2. ἡ κ. πίστιν δικαιοσύνη the righteousness of faith Hb 11:7. ἡ κατ᾿ ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις purpose of election Ro 9:11.—Here also belong the titles of the gospels εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Ματθαῖον etc., where κατά is likew. periphrasis for a gen. (cp. JLydus, De Mag. 3, 46 p. 136, 10 Wünsch τῆς κ. Λουκανὸν συγγραφῆς; Herodian 2, 9, 4 of an autobiography ἐν τῷ καθ᾿ αὑτὸν βίῳ; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 18 τ. καθ᾿ αὐτὸν ἱστορίαν; 2 Macc 2:13. Cp. B-D-F §163; 224, 2; Zahn, Einleitung §49; BBacon, Why ‘According to Mt’? Exp., 8th ser., 16, 1920, 289–310).—On the periphrasis of the gen. by κατά s. Rudberg (ἀνά beg.) w. many exx. fr. Pla. on. But it occurs as early as Thu. 6, 16, 5 ἐν τῷ κατ᾿ αὐτοὺς βίῳ.—M-M. DELG. EDNT. TW.

John Reece
04-12-2015, 04:06 PM
[snip] ... the reading is never in the other gospels' indirect quoting the words. The only time is in Luke 9:23, and the Greek interpolation show signs of Modern Greek, and english influences.

I do not know what you mean by "indirect quoting of the words", nor do I know what you mean by "signs of Modern Greek and [E]nglish influences". However, here are all the occurrences of the term in the NT; if you ever get back to this thread, perhaps the following will serve as a point of reference.


Matt. 26:55 Ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὡς ἐπὶ λῃστὴν ἐξήλθατε μετὰ μαχαιρῶν καὶ ξύλων συλλαβεῖν με; καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐκαθεζόμην διδάσκων καὶ οὐκ ἐκρατήσατέ με.
Mark 14:49 καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἤμην πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ διδάσκων καὶ οὐκ ἐκρατήσατέ με· ἀλλ᾿ ἵνα πληρωθῶσιν αἱ γραφαί.
Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
Luke 11:3 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν·
Luke 16:19 Ἄνθρωπος δέ τις ἦν πλούσιος, καὶ ἐνεδιδύσκετο πορφύραν καὶ βύσσον εὐφραινόμενος καθ᾿ ἡμέραν λαμπρῶς.
Luke 19:47 Καὶ ἦν διδάσκων τὸ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ. οἱ δὲ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς ἐζήτουν αὐτὸν ἀπολέσαι καὶ οἱ πρῶτοι τοῦ λαοῦ,
Luke 22:53 καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ὄντος μου μεθ᾿ ὑμῶν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ οὐκ ἐξετείνατε τὰς χεῖρας ἐπ᾿ ἐμέ, ἀλλ᾿ αὕτη ἐστὶν ὑμῶν ἡ ὥρα καὶ ἡ ἐξουσία τοῦ σκότους.
Acts 2:46 καθ᾿ ἡμέραν τε προσκαρτεροῦντες ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ, κλῶντές τε κατ᾿ οἶκον ἄρτον, μετελάμβανον τροφῆς ἐν ἀγαλλιάσει καὶ ἀφελότητι καρδίας 47 αἰνοῦντες τὸν θεὸν καὶ ἔχοντες χάριν πρὸς ὅλον τὸν λαόν. ὁ δὲ κύριος προσετίθει τοὺς σῳζομένους καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό.
Acts 3:2 καί τις ἀνὴρ χωλὸς ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων ἐβαστάζετο, ὃν ἐτίθουν καθ᾿ ἡμέραν πρὸς τὴν θύραν τοῦ ἱεροῦ τὴν λεγομένην Ὡραίαν τοῦ αἰτεῖν ἐλεημοσύνην παρὰ τῶν εἰσπορευομένων εἰς τὸ ἱερόν·
Acts 16:5 Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι ἐστερεοῦντο τῇ πίστει καὶ ἐπερίσσευον τῷ ἀριθμῷ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν.
Acts 17:11 οὗτοι δὲ ἦσαν εὐγενέστεροι τῶν ἐν Θεσσαλονίκῃ, οἵτινες ἐδέξαντο τὸν λόγον μετὰ πάσης προθυμίας καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἀνακρίνοντες τὰς γραφὰς εἰ ἔχοι ταῦτα οὕτως.
Acts 19:9 ὡς δέ τινες ἐσκληρύνοντο καὶ ἠπείθουν κακολογοῦντες τὴν ὁδὸν ἐνώπιον τοῦ πλήθους, ἀποστὰς ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν ἀφώρισεν τοὺς μαθητὰς καθ᾿ ἡμέραν διαλεγόμενος ἐν τῇ σχολῇ Τυράννου.
1Cor. 15:31 καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἀποθνὴσκω, νὴ τὴν ὑμετέραν καύχησιν, [ἀδελφοί] ἣν ἔχω ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.
2Cor. 11:28 χωρὶς τῶν παρεκτὸς ἡ ἐπίστασίς μοι ἡ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, ἡ μέριμνα πασῶν τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν.
Heb. 7:27 ὃς οὐκ ἔχει καθ᾿ ἡμέραν ἀνάγκην, ὥσπερ οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς, πρότερον ὑπὲρ τῶν ἰδίων ἁμαρτιῶν θυσίας ἀναφέρειν ἔπειτα τῶν τοῦ λαοῦ· τοῦτο γὰρ ἐποίησεν ἐφάπαξ ἑαυτὸν ἀνενέγκας.
Heb. 10:11 Καὶ πᾶς μὲν ἱερεὺς ἕστηκεν καθ᾿ ἡμέραν λειτουργῶν καὶ τὰς αὐτὰς πολλάκις προσφέρων θυσίας, αἵτινες οὐδέποτε δύνανται περιελεῖν ἁμαρτίας,

Do all the above occurrences show "signs of Modern Greek, and [E]nglish influences"? If not, how do the others differ in that regard from the one in Luke 9:23?

John Reece
04-12-2015, 05:14 PM
... It is rarely admitted as not in the M[ajority]-text ...

The "Majority-text" is based on a fallacious premise; that is, it violates the principle explained in the first two paragraphs of Chapter 4 ― titled Some Criteria for Making Textual Choices ― of The King James Version Debate: A Plea for Realism (Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, 1779), by D. A. Carson; pages 29-30.[emphasis added]:


Before turning to the nub of the debate, I propose now to sketch in some of the criteria scholars use to determine what reading is most likely closest to the original. The evidence may conveniently be divided into two sorts, the external and the internal.

The external evidence includes the date of a particular manuscript witness, the geographical distribution of the witnesses that agree on a reading, and the genealogical relationship of the witness to the text-types. None of these considerations is considered decisive; all have to be weighed. Other things being equal, an older document may be more authoritative than a more recent one. But the date of the text-type is more important than the date of a particular witness. For example, if it can be established that at the close of the second century Irenaeus used a text-type found in a tenth-century minuscule, that minuscule will be considered more important than a fifth-century uncial whose text-type cannot be traced back further than the fourth century. Geographical distribution is also important, for if a particular reading is found in several widely separated areas, it is correspondingly less likely to be the idiosyncratic error of a geographically contained region. The relationship of the witnesses to the text-types is extremely important, because if all the witnesses that support a particular reading are from one text-type, then they may all be copies of copies of copies that spring from one manuscript. Manuscripts must therefore be weighed rather than counted. Of course, if all those manuscripts came from one textual transition, that tradition may in fact preserve the original reading; but this cannot be presumed from the number of manuscript witnesses per se. If the other three text types agree on another reading, even though they collectively embrace a smaller number of actual manuscripts, then it is in principle more likely that they preserve the original reading, other things being equal.

John Reece
04-13-2015, 06:13 AM
Editorial note: I must have inadvertently misspelled the first of two occurrences of the word "tradition" between the last two lines of colored text near the bottom of the post, and my spell checker then changed the word to "transition". I have corrected that spelling error below. I have also refined the wording of the opening paragraph.

The "Majority-text" is based on a flawed premise; that is, it does not take into account the principle explained in the first two paragraphs of Chapter 4 ― titled Some Criteria for Making Textual Choices ― of The King James Version Debate: A Plea for Realism (Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, 1779), by D. A. Carson; pages 29-30.[emphasis added]:


Before turning to the nub of the debate, I propose now to sketch in some of the criteria scholars use to determine what reading is most likely closest to the original. The evidence may conveniently be divided into two sorts, the external and the internal.

The external evidence includes the date of a particular manuscript witness, the geographical distribution of the witnesses that agree on a reading, and the genealogical relationship of the witness to the text-types. None of these considerations is considered decisive; all have to be weighed. Other things being equal, an older document may be more authoritative than a more recent one. But the date of the text-type is more important than the date of a particular witness. For example, if it can be established that at the close of the second century Irenaeus used a text-type found in a tenth-century minuscule, that minuscule will be considered more important than a fifth-century uncial whose text-type cannot be traced back further than the fourth century. Geographical distribution is also important, for if a particular reading is found in several widely separated areas, it is correspondingly less likely to be the idiosyncratic error of a geographically contained region. The relationship of the witnesses to the text-types is extremely important, because if all the witnesses that support a particular reading are from one text-type, then they may all be copies of copies of copies that spring from one manuscript. Manuscripts must therefore be weighed rather than counted. Of course, if all those manuscripts came from one textual tradition, that tradition may in fact preserve the original reading; but this cannot be presumed from the number of manuscript witnesses per se. If the other three text types agree on another reading, even though they collectively embrace a smaller number of actual manuscripts, then it is in principle more likely that they preserve the original reading, other things being equal.

Omniskeptical
05-14-2015, 01:54 AM
6415This is the footnote in Von Soden's second volume. Lachmann doesn't have it included among his critical test. Beza admitted that only 5 out of 20 of his copies of Luke had it. Jerome testifies against his own Old Latin version as having but strangely doesn't discuss the words, suggesting those being placed in Jerome writing is a forgery. It is never mentioned by any other the church fathers, which it would be if daily self-crucifixion were a must.

Omniskeptical
05-14-2015, 03:06 AM
The "Majority-text" is based on a fallacious premise; that is, it violates the principle explained in the first two paragraphs of Chapter 4 ― titled Some Criteria for Making Textual Choices ― of The King James Version Debate: A Plea for Realism (Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, 1779), by D. A. Carson; pages 29-30.[emphasis added]:


Before turning to the nub of the debate, I propose now to sketch in some of the criteria scholars use to determine what reading is most likely closest to the original. The evidence may conveniently be divided into two sorts, the external and the internal.

The external evidence includes the date of a particular manuscript witness, the geographical distribution of the witnesses that agree on a reading, and the genealogical relationship of the witness to the text-types. None of these considerations is considered decisive; all have to be weighed. Other things being equal, an older document may be more authoritative than a more recent one. But the date of the text-type is more important than the date of a particular witness. For example, if it can be established that at the close of the second century Irenaeus used a text-type found in a tenth-century minuscule, that minuscule will be considered more important than a fifth-century uncial whose text-type cannot be traced back further than the fourth century. Geographical distribution is also important, for if a particular reading is found in several widely separated areas, it is correspondingly less likely to be the idiosyncratic error of a geographically contained region. The relationship of the witnesses to the text-types is extremely important, because if all the witnesses that support a particular reading are from one text-type, then they may all be copies of copies of copies that spring from one manuscript. Manuscripts must therefore be weighed rather than counted. Of course, if all those manuscripts came from one textual transition, that tradition may in fact preserve the original reading; but this cannot be presumed from the number of manuscript witnesses per se. If the other three text types agree on another reading, even though they collectively embrace a smaller number of actual manuscripts, then it is in principle more likely that they preserve the original reading, other things being equal.

The Majority Text is about correction of typos, and Vulgate interpolations put into the Textus Receptus. There is nothing about advocating the King James Version, or the Beza specific form of the text which in itself is like any 15th-16th century printed greek new testament of the time-- seriously flawed, though not as seriously as the 1914 Patriarchate Orthodox bible. It would seem that the critical text is even worse on all that, even. Abbot Jean Gregor is ignored in favor of Tischendorf, Wescott, and Hort.

Omniskeptical
05-16-2015, 07:24 AM
Wow, Reece's failure to respond adequately is most surprising.

John Reece
05-16-2015, 08:54 AM
Wow, Reece's failure to respond adequately is most surprising.

To this?


The Majority Text is about correction of typos, and Vulgate interpolations put into the Textus Receptus. There is nothing about advocating the King James Version, or the Beza specific form of the text which in itself is like any 15th-16th century printed greek new testament of the time-- seriously flawed, though not as seriously as the 1914 Patriarchate Orthodox bible. It would seem that the critical text is even worse on all that, even. Abbot Jean Gregor is ignored in favor of Tischendorf, Wescott, and Hort.

John Reece
05-16-2015, 04:26 PM
Or (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=198710&viewfull=1#post198710), this?


According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist. The other gospels don't add them either. The Family of Nuns and Priests and their children need to bleed like that in monetary terms.

See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184331&viewfull=1#post184331), here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184380&viewfull=1#post184380), here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184692&viewfull=1#post184692), and here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184722&viewfull=1#post184722).

Also, from page 189 of The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration (Oxford University Press, 2005), by Bruce M. Metzger and Bart D. Ehrman:


Though absolute accuracy in an extensive critical apparatus is probably unattainable, where von Soden's work can be tested, it has been found to contain a higher percentage of errors than is usually considered to be consistent with trustworthy scholarship.

Omniskeptical
05-17-2015, 02:48 AM
Or (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=198710&viewfull=1#post198710), this?



See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184331&viewfull=1#post184331), here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184380&viewfull=1#post184380), here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184692&viewfull=1#post184692), and here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184722&viewfull=1#post184722).

Also, from page 189 of The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration (Oxford University Press, 2005), by Bruce M. Metzger and Bart D. Ehrman:


Though absolute accuracy in an extensive critical apparatus is probably unattainable, where von Soden's work can be tested, it has been found to contain a higher percentage of errors than is usually considered to be consistent with trustworthy scholarship.Would you be willing to look at this image two? 6526It isn't surprising that Von Soden's apparatus has errors either. There evidently isn't one expert who would deny it, but it is still used to determine what the common greek text is. And 'daily' isn't in it, since only Jerome quotes it as part of his Old Latin version, but the Old Latin version doesn't have it. One is hard pressed to find another Greek or Latin quote of it among the Church Fathers. I find it incredible that the Orthodox church bent over and accepted the interpolation.

Omniskeptical
05-17-2015, 03:30 AM
I think John Burgeon summarizes the fraudulent inclusion best:

Its origin is not far to seek. Chrysostom, in a certain place, after quoting our Lord’s
saying about taking up the cross and following Him, remarks that the words ‘do not mean
that we are actually to bear the wood upon our shoulders, but to keep the prospect of death
steadily before us, and like St. Paul to “die daily”376.’ The same Father, in the two other
places already quoted from his writings, is observed similarly to connect the Saviour’s
mention of ‘bearing the Cross’ with the Apostle’s announcement—‘I die daily.’ Add, that
Ephraem Syrus377, and Jerome quoted already,—persistently connect the same two places
together; the last named Father even citing them in immediate succession;—and the inference
is unavoidable. The phrase in St. Luke ix. 23 must needs be a very ancient as well as very
interesting expository gloss, imported into the Gospel from 1 Cor. xv. 31,—as Mill378 and
Matthaei379 long since suggested.

John Reece
05-17-2015, 07:18 AM
Would you be willing to look at this image two?

I have looked at the image, which does not contain sufficient reliable evidence to overrule or outweigh the witnesses that I posted here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184259&viewfull=1#post184259). Obviously, von Soden believed in counting witnesses rather than weighing witnesses. See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184749&viewfull=1#post184749), wherein I misspoke when I said that 'The "Majority-text" is based on a fallacious premise'. What I should have said is that it is fallacious to compare the quantity of manuscript witnesses in the Byzantine/Majority text tradition to the quality of manuscript witnesses in other text traditions. I may still not saying that just right, but it's the best my poor aged brain can do at present. Ponder Carson's comment (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184749&viewfull=1#post184749) re the principle that I am trying to share.


It isn't surprising that Von Soden's apparatus has errors either. There evidently isn't one expert who would deny it, but it is still used to determine what the common greek text is. And 'daily' isn't in it, since only Jerome quotes it as part of his Old Latin version, but the Old Latin version doesn't have it. One is hard pressed to find another Greek or Latin quote of it among the Church Fathers. I find it incredible that the Orthodox church bent over and accepted the interpolation.

There isn't one expert who would deny what?

What is used to determine what "the common greek text is"?

What do you mean by "the common greek text"?

The term rendered 'daily' is not a single word, it is two words: καθ᾿ ἡμέραν.

Here are Old Latin versions that contain the term καθ᾿ ἡμέραν at Luke 9:23: aur (Vercellensis) f (Brixianus).

Why do you think that neither Bruce Metzger nor Philip Comfort ― in their respective commentaries on the Greek text of the New Testament ― note the omission of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν as a textual variant at Luke 9:23?

Omniskeptical
05-17-2015, 03:50 PM
I have looked at the image, which does not contain sufficient reliable evidence to overrule or outweigh the witnesses that I posted here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184259&viewfull=1#post184259). Obviously, von Soden believed in counting witnesses rather than weighing witnesses. See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184749&viewfull=1#post184749), wherein I misspoke when I said that 'The "Majority-text" is based on a fallacious premise'. What I should have said is that it is fallacious to compare the quantity of manuscript witnesses in the Byzantine/Majority text tradition to the quality of manuscript witnesses in other text traditions. I may still not saying that just right, but it's the best my poor aged brain can do at present. Ponder Carson's comment (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184749&viewfull=1#post184749) re the principle that I am trying to share.



There isn't one expert who would deny what?Everyone know Von Soden was sloppy.


What is used to determine what "the common greek text is"?You didn't know Von Soden's German Greek New Testament is used by MT advocates? Specifically, volume 2. wonders never cease.


What do you mean by "the common greek text"?The ones which were exact copies.


The term rendered 'daily' is not a single word, it is two words: καθ᾿ ἡμέραν.I already knew.


Here are Old Latin versions that contain the term καθ᾿ ἡμέραν at Luke 9:23: aur (Vercellensis) f (Brixianus).It absent from most old italic manuscripts, aka Old Latin.


Why do you think that neither Bruce Metzger nor Philip Comfort ― in their respective commentaries on the Greek text of the New Testament ― note the omission of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν as a textual variant at Luke 9:23?Clarkes doesn't, and he doesn't pander to Catholic authority.

Daily - Καθ' ἡμεραν is omitted by many reputable MSS., versions, and fathers. It is not found in the parallel places, Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34
-- Adam Clarke's Commentary

John Reece
05-18-2015, 07:30 AM
Everyone know Von Soden was sloppy.

That is non-responsive and irrelevant to my point that von Soden merely indiscriminately counted manuscripts, rather than weighing the merits of manuscripts by means of principles used by up-to-date textual scholars.


You didn't know Von Soden's German Greek New Testament is used by MT advocates?

Of course I know that von Soden's German Greek New Testament is used by MT advocates; however, your writing is often so opaque that I cannot tell for sure to what you are referring, as was true in this case, in which you did not mention von Soden's German Greek New Testament


The ones which were exact copies.

That is your response to this question: 'What do you mean by "the common greek text"?' Do you not see that your response does not make sense, and does nothing to provide the clarification that I was seeking?


I already knew.

Of course you did; you were just being careless when you referred to the two-word term as a single word.


It absent from most old italic manuscripts, aka Old Latin.

Agreed.


Daily - Καθ' ἡμεραν is omitted by many reputable MSS., versions, and fathers. It is not found in the parallel places, Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34
-- Adam Clarke's Commentary

That is your response to my asking you this question: "Why do you think that neither Bruce Metzger nor Philip Comfort ― in their respective commentaries on the Greek text of the New Testament ― note the omission of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν as a textual variant at Luke 9:23?"

My question was an effort to encourage you to think so as to understand the rationale of all the best up-to-date scholars of the Greek New Testament with regard to the occurrence of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23. Instead of thinking about and understanding the reason the omission of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν is considered not significant enough to warrant comment by the best current scholars of the ancient Greek NT manuscripts, you defensively reinforce your prejudice by quoting a theologian ― not a specialist in the study of the ancient NT manuscripts ― who died in 1832. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Clarke)

Omniskeptical
05-18-2015, 01:18 PM
... you defensively reinforce your prejudice by quoting a theologian ― not a specialist in the study of the ancient NT manuscripts ― who died in 1832.Your reference to Metzger and Bart Ehrman was equally lame. Ehrman doesn't even believe in the inspiration of scripture, and we can gather Metzger certainly didn't. What motivates the "scholarship" or those two, if they didn't believe scripture? Money, and pandering to big religion, perhaps? I don't doubt it anymore.

John Reece
05-18-2015, 04:58 PM
Your reference to Metzger and Bart Ehrman was equally lame. Ehrman doesn't even believe in the inspiration of scripture, and we can gather Metzger certainly didn't. What motivates the "scholarship" or those two, if they didn't believe scripture? Money, and pandering to big religion, perhaps? I don't doubt it anymore.

With regard to the text of Luke 9:23 (the topic of this thread), I did not refer to Bart Ehrman, who had nothing whatsoever to do with the textual commentary by Metzger (http://www.christianbook.com/textual-commentary-greek-testament-second-edition/bruce-metzger/9781598561647/pd/561642) to which I referred here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184259&viewfull=1#post184259), here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=198918&viewfull=1#post198918), and here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=199129&viewfull=1#post199129). Likewise, the commentary by Comfort (http://www.wtsbooks.com/new-testament-text-and-translation-commentary-philip-comfort-9781414310343), to which I referred each time I referred to Metzger's textual commentary.

My quote from Metzger's textbook ― The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, with regard to which Ehrman only collaborated with Metzger in the 4th edition ― was not specific to the topic of this thread, i.e., the occurrence of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23. Rather, the quote was with regard to the reputation of von Soden among textual scholars.

I'll grant that Bart Ehrman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman) is a self-confessed "happy agnostic", who does not believe in the inspiration of Scripture; however, to apply any such description or characterization to Metzger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_M._Metzger) is rank, gross slander, for which you are not able to provide any evidence.

John Reece
05-19-2015, 09:08 AM
With regard to the text of Luke 9:23 (the topic of this thread), I did not refer to Bart Ehrman, who had nothing whatsoever to do with the textual commentary by Metzger (http://www.christianbook.com/textual-commentary-greek-testament-second-edition/bruce-metzger/9781598561647/pd/561642) to which I referred here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=184259&viewfull=1#post184259), here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=198918&viewfull=1#post198918), and here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?6438-Luke-9-23&p=199129&viewfull=1#post199129). Likewise, the commentary by Comfort (http://www.wtsbooks.com/new-testament-text-and-translation-commentary-philip-comfort-9781414310343), to which I referred each time I referred to Metzger's textual commentary.

My quote from Metzger's textbook ― The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, with regard to which Ehrman only collaborated with Metzger in the 4th edition ― was not specific to the topic of this thread, i.e., the occurrence of καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23. Rather, the quote was with regard to the reputation of von Soden among textual scholars.

I'll grant that Bart Ehrman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman) is a self-confessed "happy agnostic", who does not believe in the inspiration of Scripture; however, to apply any such description or characterization to Metzger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_M._Metzger) is rank, gross slander, for which you are not able to provide any evidence.

See here (http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=638) for reference to Metzger's "Christian devotion" in an obituary written by one of his students.