Jason BeDuhn on "worship"

[Cal_Minian]

Jason BeDuhn in his Chapter "Bowing to Bias" says that maany Enlgish Translations are very biased when it comes to deciding when the GREEK PROSKUNEW proskunew is rendered worship and when it is rendered bowing or obeisance. This snippet the chapter illustrates one very inconsistent scripture. His chapter of this is very thorough, this being only one example.

Enjoy!



In our exploration of the Greek word proskunew in the New ’Testament, therefore, the NAB and NW receive the highest marks for accuracy, while the others show a tendency to lapse into interpretive judgments guided by their theological biases. It is perfectly legitimate for readers of the Bible to have different prostration. Some will give it great theological importance; others will find it too broadly used to necessarily have theological import. But this debate of interpretation is the right of the readers, and should not be decided for them by translators whose biases lead them to restrict what they will allow the readers to be able to consider. ... Few Christians still incorporate prostrations into their worship of God, and the prostrations once due to kings and other high officials have been refined into graceful bows and curtsies. The world of the Bible was quite different, and if we forget that fact we are apt to misunderstand what is on the page in front of us.

English translations of Matthew 28:16-17
NAB The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
NW . . . they did obeisance, but some doubted.
NASB . . . they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
NIV . . . they worshiped him; but some doubted.
NRSV . . . they worshiped him; but some doubted.
TEV . . . they worshiped him, even though some of them doubted.
AB . . . they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
LB . . . worshiped him -- but some of them weren’t sure it really was Jesus
KJV . . . they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Here all translations except the NW have recourse to "worship" -- a rendering which makes no sense in this context. How can someone worship and doubt at the same time? Notice how all eleven disciples prostrate themselves, but not all believe what they are experiencing (actually, the NAB is the only version to correctly translate the Greek "but they doubted"; there is nothing in the Greek from which you could get "some"). The word can’t possibly mean "worship" as we use that word today, as a mental state of reverence, since "they doubted." It only refers to the outward physical act of bowing down, which may or may not reflect how the one malting the gesture really feels about the person to whom they make it. This contradiction seems to have been missed by all the translators except those who prepared the NW.


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[OldShepherd]

Today @ 08:22 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134612#post134612)
Cal_Minian:

Jason BeDuhn in his Chapter "Bowing to Bias" says that maany Enlgish Translations are very biased when it comes to deciding when the GREEK PROSKUNEW proskunew is rendered worship and when it is rendered bowing or obeisance. This snippet the chapter illustrates one very inconsistent scripture. His chapter of this is very thorough, this being only one example.

Enjoy!

[quote]Here all translations except the NW have recourse to "worship" -- a rendering which makes no sense in this context. How can someone worship and doubt at the same time? Notice how all eleven disciples prostrate themselves, but not all believe what they are experiencing (actually, the NAB is the only version to correctly translate the Greek "but they doubted"; there is nothing in the Greek from which you could get "some"). The word can’t possibly mean "worship" as we use that word today, as a mental state of reverence, since "they doubted." It only refers to the outward physical act of bowing down, which may or may not reflect how the one malting the gesture really feels about the person to whom they make it. This contradiction seems to have been missed by all the translators except those who prepared the NW.

This man is a disgrace to Biblical scholarship. "They" does NOT necessarily mean everyone present. For example, see Acts 2., vss 6 and 8 "every man", but vs. 13, "some mocking". How do you explain that? Or does it not matter, because JWs have another book they can use as "proof." "Bowing to Bias", indeed? This man is bending over backward to kowtow to his own biases, and the truth be damned. This chapter is very thorough, this being only one example. Enjoy!
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 05:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134677#post134677)
OldShepherd:



This man is a disgrace to Biblical scholarship. "They" does NOT necessarily mean everyone present. For example, see Acts 2., vss 6 and 8 "every man", but vs. 13, "some mocking". How do you explain that? Or does it not matter, because JWs have another book they can use as "proof." "Bowing to Bias", indeed? This man is bending over backward to kowtow to his own biases, and the truth be damned. This chapter is very thorough, this being only one example. Enjoy!
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Dear OldShepherd,
In the context of this verse it is only the eleven disciples.


KJV Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away
into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed
them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him:
but some doubted.



Kind Regards,
Cal

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 10:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134685#post134685)
Cal_Minian:

Dear OldShepherd,
In the context of this verse it is only the eleven disciples.

KJV Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away
into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed
them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him:
but some doubted.

Kind Regards,
Cal

This is the result of a 30 second search on my Bible program. As I said DeBuhn is a disgrace. He is ONE (1) scholar and people are waving his book around as if Charlton Heston carried it down from Mount Sinai, carved in stone.
Robertson, Word Pictures in the N.T., Matt 28:16.

{But some doubted} (\hoi de edistasan\). From \dis\ (in two, divided in mind). Cf. #Mt 14:31. The reference is not to the eleven who were all now convinced after some doubt, but to the others present. Paul states that over five hundred were present, most of whom were still alive when he wrote (#1Co 15:6).

Either way it would be irrelevant, as I have shown from Acts 2, language which seems all inclusive, is not necesarily, the size of the group is immaterial!

Kindest Regards
Carlos

[AVmetro]

Who contends the definition of 'proskuneo'? The typical AT line of reasoning - "This word is used in such and such way in this context, therefore it is used in such and such way in every context."

Take, for example, Luke 24:51-52. Note that the 'worship' takes place after Christ acsends. Evidently this denotes {true} worship in it's religous sense.

Another, Matt4:8-10. Note that Christ's response was in direct response to satan's request that Christ 'worship' (proskuneo) before him.

Rev19:10, 22:8..cf..Acts10:25

Matt2:11 - If 'worship' is strictly meant to express "mere respect" then why perform such to a child? Couple this with the fact that they offered gifts of gold etc. and I think one can quite easily see what is in view. :wink:

>

I could also cite examples which demonstrate mere "homage". This is not something I contend.

God bless

[Cal_Minian]

Yesterday @ 09:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134799#post134799)
OldShepherd:


This is the result of a 30 second search on my Bible program. As I said DeBuhn is a disgrace. He is ONE (1) scholar and people are waving his book around as if Charlton Heston carried it down from Mount Sinai, carved in stone.
Robertson, Word Pictures in the N.T., Matt 28:16.

{But some doubted} (\hoi de edistasan\). From \dis\ (in two, divided in mind). Cf. #Mt 14:31. The reference is not to the eleven who were all now convinced after some doubt, but to the others present. Paul states that over five hundred were present, most of whom were still alive when he wrote (#1Co 15:6).

Either way it would be irrelevant, as I have shown from Acts 2, language which seems all inclusive, is not necesarily, the size of the group is immaterial!

Kindest Regards
Carlos

Dear Carlos,
As usual, Robertson merely states his opinion. The Expositor's Greek New Testament (this section by Marcus Dods) says that the fact that eleven were mention was to indicate that what followed concerned the well-known Twelve minus Judas.

He discusses the problem of some doubting at great length.

He says "various methods" have been adopted to get rid opf the unwelcome conclusion that some of the eleven did not do homage, e.g. by taking edistasan as a plurperfect or by finding the doubtless among the 500 mentioned by St Paul, or even by altering the text oi de into oude (Beza).


Personally, what is convincing to me, is that when looking at the Greek text, verse 17 is connected by KAI.


Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away
into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed
them 17 and when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.


It is not a new sentence but a continuation of verse 16 in the Greek. Therefore on what basis do you consider the "they" to be other than the eleven in the immediate context of this verse?

To import Paul's words into this text amounts to special pleading. Matt 28 precedes that event but some amount of time.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[AVmetro]

Cal_Minian states:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away
into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed
them 17 and when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Sorry for bumping an old thread but I'm in the process of hunting down one of Jezz's old posts and I felt the need to comment on the above:

BeDuhn asserts that because the 'worshipping' disciples "doubted" that 'proskuneo' in this verse cannot indicate worship in the sense of religous adoration.

However, he seems to be overlooking the fact that the act of adoration with the intent of expressing outwardly the appearance of religous adoration can occur without being genuine. For example:

Isa 29:13 - "And the Lord says, Because this people draws near with its mouth, and they honor Me with its lip; but its heart is far from Me..."

I.e. an act of empty 'praise' or 'worship'.

Therefore while understanding the word to, at times, simply denote "bowing" etc. it can in certain contexts (see last post) entail religous adoration. Which it is in regards to Matt28:16 is not important to me at this time so much as pointing out the fallacy of BeDuhn's argument cited in Cal_Minian's initial post.

God bless

...Now back to my search....