BDAG, KAI and the fictional Sharp's

[Cal_Minian]

There has been a lot of discussion on the Greek KAI and how it functions with respect to substantives when it is used as a copulative.

It is interesting that BDAG comments that this function actually works against Sharp's rule and not in favor of it.

Note the entry for "Saviour" in BDAG on page 985.


BDAG 985 I. our great God and Savior Christ Jesus Tit 2:13 (cp. PLond III,604b, 118 p. 80 [47 AD] ... but the presence of Kai Tit 2:13 suggests I dif. semantic aspect and may justify the rendering in NRSV mg.)


The NRSV margin has "of the great God and our Savior" indicating that God and Savior are two different persons. As Jason BeDuhn mentions in his book, Sharps supposedly considers "God" to be a proper name in the GNT and therefore Trinitarians are inconsistent when they try to use Sharp's rule where "God" is one of the nouns.

This is one of the improvements in BDAG over BAGD which does not make this comment. Is it not wonderful how the latest scholarship continues to improve?

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

Just one question. Have you done any significant study in Greek other than simply accepting whatever is said by this Jason BeDuhn?

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 05:26 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134670#post134670)
Trinitarian:

Just one question. Have you done any significant study in Greek other than simply accepting whatever is said by this Jason BeDuhn?

Yes. Besides I am a Sophomore and you are only a freshman :teeth:

Best Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

So what kind of expertise? College courses? Greek GED? I may be freshman here. But I'm also a Seminary Student. :bv:

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 05:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134679#post134679)
Trinitarian:

So what kind of expertise? College courses? Greek GED? I may be freshman here. But I'm also a Seminary Student. :bv:

Dear Trinitarian,
The owner of the list recently asked me a similar question. This is how I replied.


Dear DeeDee,
I have systematically studied through Page Kelley including the workbook and frequently consult Seow. I would say I have about 6 years total exposure with perhaps 3 years intensive study. I know the orthography and the grammar and can translate Hebrew, albeit laboriously. I have a friend who TA's Hebrew at a Seminary who tells me that if their first year students can use Brown-Driver-Briggs by the end of the year they have accomplished what they have set out to learn. I am proficient in the use of BDB. I can find passages and phrases from my BHS but to be honest I don’t like it much. Hebrew is hard for me. I have studied Greek for about 9 years and 5 years of those were very intensive. My Greek is much better than my Hebrew and I can read passages of Greek, especially John, without the need to translate into English. After about the third year of intensive study the idiom and word order of Greek started to come to me and I am grateful for that. As far as I am concerned, no one really finishes learning these languages. I try to use them each week and generally multiple times per week. I have a love for the original languages and an obsession with them that cannot be taught at a Seminary, one needs to have that drive from within. Someone who is forced to take the languages to become a Pastor but does not see the need for them never really learned. Those who learned it but do not continue using it will not retain it. Therefore if one has a love for the original languages and pursues it with intensity one step at a time they will be the tortoise in the race with the hare. The self-taught individual who loves the languages after 10 years will be much more proficient that the Seminarian who did not like them to begin with and/or did not continue to use them.

That’s my 2 cents.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

So you have no formal education in biblical languages. That's all I wanted to know. And I don't know what you heard about first year Hebrew, but by the end of my first year of undergradI had translated all of Esther, and portions of Deuteronomy and the Psalms. So your friend sounds like he teaches at a pretty low end seminary.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 11:51 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135041#post135041)
Trinitarian:

So you have no formal education in biblical languages. That's all I wanted to know. And I don't know what you heard about first year Hebrew, but by the end of my first year of undergradI had translated all of Esther, and portions of Deuteronomy and the Psalms. So your friend sounds like he teaches at a pretty low end seminary.

Dear Trinitarian,
If you want to find out my level first-hand, why not jump in and post something substantive?

Did you translate Esther because you used LaSor?

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

I translated Esther using Biblica Hebraica and BDB.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 12:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135051#post135051)
Trinitarian:

I translated Esther using Biblica Hebraica and BDB.

Dear Trinitarian,
That sounds like a lot of fun. You might be interested in LaSor who goes through Esther verse by verse. I have a copy in my library.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

Today @ 08:25 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135053#post135053)
Cal_Minian:



Dear Trinitarian,
That sounds like a lot of fun. You might be interested in LaSor who goes through Esther verse by verse. I have a copy in my library.

Kind Regards,
Cal

Good. LaSor is Christian (Trinitarian). And yes, it was a lot of fun.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 12:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135057#post135057)
Trinitarian:



Good. LaSor is Christian (Trinitarian). And yes, it was a lot of fun.


Dear Trinitarian, if your comment which implied that one needed to be Trinitarian to be Christian was an intentional slam on my faith, it is noted, and I forgive you.

Personally, I do not get involved in ad-hominem attacks. If that was not your intention, then please forgive me :smile:


Kind Regards
Cal

[Trinitarian]

Just specifying. :geebob: Although I do think that Christians cannot deny the Trinity and still be called Christians. But I wasn't slamming you or anyone.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 12:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135061#post135061)
Trinitarian:

Just specifying. :geebob: Although I do think that Christians cannot deny the Trinity and still be called Christians. But I wasn't slamming you or anyone.

Well, I forgive you anyway for the unintentional slam. I suppose you would not take notice if out of the blue I happened to slip into the conversation that you could not be Christian because you adopt a teaching that he or his disciples never taught in context?

There is a time and place for making claims like this. I did not see the need where you brought it up.

Once again, I forgive you.

Best Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

Today @ 09:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135070#post135070)
Cal_Minian:

I suppose you would not take notice if out of the blue I happened to slip into the conversation that you could not be Christian because you adopt a teaching that he or his disciples never taught in context?

Sorry if you're upset. But I won't apologize for believing in the Scriptures that are the Word of the Triune God, a doctrine with is taught throughout the Word. Your repudiation of the God who is Father, Son and Spirit is not something that I feel I have to cater to. You make the choice to come to a Christian board and flood it with anti-Trinitarian posts, so don't act all suprised and superior when we rally to defend the truth of the Gospel. What else do you expect Christians to do?

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 01:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=135076#post135076)
Trinitarian:



Sorry if you're upset. But I won't apologize for believing in the Scriptures that are the Word of the Triune God, a doctrine with is taught throughout the Word. Your repudiation of the God who is Father, Son and Spirit is not something that I feel I have to cater to. You make the choice to come to a Christian board and flood it with anti-Trinitarian posts, so don't act all suprised and superior when we rally to defend the truth of the Gospel. What else do you expect Christians to do?

Dear Trinitarian,
I was invited by the owner of this forum, DeeDee to join and post here. She fully understood that I was one of Jehovah's Witnessess when I discussed this with her on Paltalk. I also told her I had missgivings about posting here because of the way "Christians" had treated me on other boards. She said not to worry about it because this board was for debate.

I encourage you to defend your faith, if you are able.

You say:
"What else do you expect Christians to do? "

I reply:
I expect Christians to exhibit the fruitage of the spirit and defend their faith with more than platitudes and inuendo.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Trinitarian]

Well, this is clearly going nowhere. I will call this particualr discussion to a close and pray that the Holy Spirit will soften yout heart towards the Scriptures.

Grace and Peace.

[Cal_Minian]

06-27-2003 @ 05:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134656#post134656)
Cal_Minian:

There has been a lot of discussion on the Greek KAI and how it functions with respect to substantives when it is used as a copulative.

It is interesting that BDAG comments that this function actually works against Sharp's rule and not in favor of it.

Note the entry for "Saviour" in BDAG on page 985.



The NRSV margin has "of the great God and our Savior" indicating that God and Savior are two different persons. As Jason BeDuhn mentions in his book, Sharps supposedly considers "God" to be a proper name in the GNT and therefore Trinitarians are inconsistent when they try to use Sharp's rule where "God" is one of the nouns.

This is one of the improvements in BDAG over BAGD which does not make this comment. Is it not wonderful how the latest scholarship continues to improve?

Kind Regards,
Cal

[dizzle]

Trinitarian:

Sorry if you're upset. But I won't apologize for believing in the Scriptures that are the Word of the Triune God, a doctrine with is taught throughout the Word. Your repudiation of the God who is Father, Son and Spirit is not something that I feel I have to cater to. You make the choice to come to a Christian board and flood it with anti-Trinitarian posts, so don't act all suprised and superior when we rally to defend the truth of the Gospel. What else do you expect Christians to do?



AMEN!!!!!

Cal_Minian:

Dear Trinitarian,
I was invited by the owner of this forum, DeeDee to join and post here. She fully understood that I was one of Jehovah's Witnessess when I discussed this with her on Paltalk. I also told her I had missgivings about posting here because of the way "Christians" had treated me on other boards. She said not to worry about it because this board was for debate.

Not accurate at all. I invited everyone in a theology room to come to this board. He told me he had misgivings because he had been banned from other boards and censored for speaking his views. He specifically asked about our statement that we are staunch Trinitarians and said that he still thought we would ban him. I assured him that he would never be banned or censored simply for his piont of view, and he never was. In that very same room I expressed my views that one is not a Christian if one denies the deity of Christ. Cal's martydom is self-induced.