Faith

[The Director]

I have a question that I have been pondering for some time now.

It is the concept of faith.
It is a very touchy subject to Christians, as I've learned from asking simple questions.
First let me outline my concept of faith:
Believe in something because it comes from the 'higher power', because it is from this 'higher power' - no amount of questioning, reasoning will alter the state of the belief that has established itself into what is called Faith.
Faith has developed like many beliefs - from one step at a time. The difference from faith and other beliefs is the supposed origin of the belief. The all-knowing God supports the set of beliefs thus creating what is known as faith.

My question is, how can somebody have a set of beliefs that is stung together by faith when there are literally thousands of other people in the world who have the same level of faith and devotion to a totally different set of beliefs? How can somebody possibly have faith when they know other people all over the world have the same feeling of faith for totally different and opposing sets beliefs?
I am of course talking about religious beliefs and the diversity of religions - all of which have this concept of faith.

I understand the human brain is not perfect, and not logical in many cases. But by putting forward the above statements to say a Christian, does not change their views. They feel attacked and usually either shut right up and not talk, or just reply with "Because I have faith".

I wish I had something that would answer everything for me like god does for Christians. And I could respond to everybody with, "Well I have faith".

I believe soon enough quantum physics will answer all our questions, and I too will have as a powerful weapon as Christians that is faith.
I will have quantum physics; I will be able to answer everything with "Because I have quantum physics".
That will be sweeeeeet.

Any thoughts on faith and how to overcome the argument of “Because I have faith”.?
Please let me know.

THE DIRECTOR

[MikeWC]

Why would you want to overcome that argument? What is the point of trying to change someone elses' mind?

But anyways.... faith is often used as some kind of epistemological get-out-of-jail-free card. Saying "Becuase I have faith" is equivelent to saying "because I am too lazy or dumb to figure it out."

[The Director]

Get out of jail free card.
I like that.

[bandecoot]

I have a question that I have been pondering for some time now.

It is the concept of faith.
It is a very touchy subject to Christians, as I've learned from asking simple questions.
First let me outline my concept of faith:
Believe in something because it comes from the 'higher power', because it is from this 'higher power' - no amount of questioning, reasoning will alter the state of the belief that has established itself into what is called Faith.
Faith has developed like many beliefs - from one step at a time. The difference from faith and other beliefs is the supposed origin of the belief. The all-knowing God supports the set of beliefs thus creating what is known as faith.

My question is, how can somebody have a set of beliefs that is stung together by faith when there are literally thousands of other people in the world who have the same level of faith and devotion to a totally different set of beliefs? How can somebody possibly have faith when they know other people all over the world have the same feeling of faith for totally different and opposing sets beliefs?
I am of course talking about religious beliefs and the diversity of religions - all of which have this concept of faith.

I understand the human brain is not perfect, and not logical in many cases. But by putting forward the above statements to say a Christian, does not change their views. They feel attacked and usually either shut right up and not talk, or just reply with "Because I have faith".

I wish I had something that would answer everything for me like god does for Christians. And I could respond to everybody with, "Well I have faith".

I believe soon enough quantum physics will answer all our questions, and I too will have as a powerful weapon as Christians that is faith.
I will have quantum physics; I will be able to answer everything with "Because I have quantum physics".
That will be sweeeeeet.

Any thoughts on faith and how to overcome the argument of “Because I have faith”.?
Please let me know.

THE DIRECTOR


There is no answer to that. if it gets to that point there is no point continuing, you are wasteing time that could be more profitably spent smashing your thumb with a club hammer.

The trick is to know enough to keep them focused on actual point of the discussion.

[mentored1]

Well met Director


First let me outline my concept of faith:
Believe in something because it comes from the 'higher power', because it is from this 'higher power' - no amount of questioning, reasoning will alter the state of the belief that has established itself into what is called Faith.
Faith has developed like many beliefs - from one step at a time. The difference from faith and other beliefs is the supposed origin of the belief. The all-knowing God supports the set of beliefs thus creating what is known as faith.

Faith is sketchy for me because it is part of the abstract conceptualization that operates in the human mind's "hall of mirrors". Everything reflects off something else, relies on other terms for its definitions, and has very little substance without borrowing from other abstractions.

Faith is a term that, to a Christian, describes their trust in God. It's not really a system of beliefs or a method for anything: any Christian that says that is (to me) misguided. Faith is very simply a believer's trust in their God. Things that are not understood are left to "faith" - to trust that God knows and will one day reveal it to them. Trust.

My question is, how can somebody have a set of beliefs that is stung together by faith when there are literally thousands of other people in the world who have the same level of faith and devotion to a totally different set of beliefs? How can somebody possibly have faith when they know other people all over the world have the same feeling of faith for totally different and opposing sets beliefs?

Because Faith is exclusive. If Faith is placed in the God of the Bible, for instance, then one must TRUST what God has revealed to them through the Bible (or the church for Catholics). If God has revealed that salvation is only through Jesus Christ then they trust that God knows which means all other paths are invalid and lead to damnation. Whenever doctrines and dogma become part of God's Word and are trusted as such all others are excluded.

And because Faith leads to Heaven that Trust in God cannot be violated without risking one's status with God and entry to Heaven.

I understand the human brain is not perfect, and not logical in many cases. But by putting forward the above statements to say a Christian, does not change their views. They feel attacked and usually either shut right up and not talk, or just reply with "Because I have faith".

Indeed... What else can they say to respond to a question for which there is no answer or they don't understand? The only response that works to comfort their uncertainty and display their faith is to say "Because I trust God - and He knows all."

I wish I had something that would answer everything for me like god does for Christians. And I could respond to everybody with, "Well I have faith".

Now that I don't have that I default to the next best option ---> :shrug:

Any thoughts on faith and how to overcome the argument of “Because I have faith”.?
Please let me know.


I don't know if you can... I've found that the Socratic dialogue works well; but use with caution as it often infuriates people: theist or not. :wink:

Just question them incessantly to reveal the relativity and emptiness of the terms and ideas they put forward. Like "What do you mean by faith?" - their response could open another twenty questions about meaning. "Why does God require faith?" ... "If faith is not something physically sensible how then do you know to possess it?" ...

That may not be to your liking and I personally avoid trying to lop off all the dead limbs from arguments in this manner because people tend to get very mad when they realize that they don't understand what a certain idea means that they rely upon to express themselves. :shrug:

Of course there's always morbid pleasure in confusing people... :grin:

that's so bad...

Take care

[zorathruster]

Any thoughts on faith and how to overcome the argument of “Because I have faith”.?
Please let me know.

THE DIRECTOR

Faith is believing on a basis other than fact or a rational basis. There exists no basis in fact or rational basis that a man could be truly dead for many hours and then just wake up. Rationally, we might accept that he was really not dead, he might have been suspended (like those who fall through the ice and later thaw out), but there is no rational way to believe someone actually died, all the cells loose their ability to function and then have this person reanimate except by faith.

Rationally we can describe various circumstances where someone was not really dead an were reanimated. In fact the surgeon Robert Whytt got a supposed hanged corpse for study and when she woke up it was proclaimed a resurection. Whytt probably the first indepth investigator into neuroscience knew that it resulted from the girl being a bit flabby about the throat and never finalized her strangulation. Combining shock into the scenario gave the impression although not the factual appearance of death. The locals wanted to take her back and do it right the next time but as might be expected the novelty of the event ensured the recently demised would not have to participate.

Rationally we can explain most of the world and the events we observe. The ideas and perspective of a large portion of biblical stories are unobservable, unverifiable, self contradictory and contradict every understood aspect of reality. There is no Santa Claus divying out good deals for those who are pius. There is no firy inferno awaiting those who do not abide by the directives of Moses, Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwell. There is no alternative reality other than the one we can observe and attempt to understand.

The scoundrels will try to devolve your beliefs of such things as atoms down to "beliefs" just like theirs. There is a difference between "rational" beliefs which consistently follow observable rules and "irrational" beliefs which contradict every observation and are inconsistent with known facts. So when confronting "believers" you need to distinguish between rational beliefs which include such things as atoms and the Big Bang and evolution and irrational beliefs which include fairies, angels, gods, heaven and hell. When irrational believers are asked to define their articles and give support they often fail miserably. This is where you can show them the difference between rational beliefs and irrational beliefs.

Faith is what is required to accept irrational beliefs.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bah... faith!

Faith (noun): Common human trait, following a belief that someone knows they can never tangibly prove but want to believe in regardless. (see denial)