Theism

[Ptolemaio]

this is my fist time really posting here, i have been a bit busy trying to survive, but i was just talking to a newfound friend yesterday and we were discussing our religios beliefs. it seems that there is a name for what i already believe, and it is called "Theism". she said that it was the true belief of all the founding fathers, not Christianity. i found it all quite interesting as it was what i already believed, only now with a name to it. does anyone else feel the same way?

[Xavier]

First, Not "theism", but "deism"... "Theism" is the belief in a god or gods. "Deism" is the belief in a disinterested creator, one who is not personal (in contrast with the Christian personal god).

Second, most of the founding fathers were not deist at all, but Christians. They were several deists and a (couple?) unitarian.

Third, welcome to TWeb.

[Ptolemaio]

yeah... thats what it was 'deism' well, i knew it was something like that. as i said, i just found out the other day. and umm thanks

[C. D. Ward]

Actually, the exclusion of personality & intervention from the characteristics of the deity are a relatively recent development in the definition of "deism". Deism of the 18th century was primarily concerned with the rejection of revelation as a means of obtaining knowledge in favor of reason and science. The deistic god of the revolutionary founding fathers (Paine, Franklin, possibly Jefferson & Madison as well, etc.) was a caring and interventionist deity, albeit one different that than posited by orthodox Christianity with its emphasis on Biblical revelation as the primary means of knowledge about the deity.

[Darth Executor]

Actually, the exclusion of personality & intervention from the characteristics of the deity are a relatively recent development in the definition of "deism".

Are you sure? I know Voltaire certainly excluded them.

[Teallaura]

yeah... thats what it was 'deism' well, i knew it was something like that. as i said, i just found out the other day. and umm thanks
Don't feel bad - it's an old myth that circulates on college campuses like the revolving door on the Student Union. As Xavier and CD pointed out, some of the Founding Fathers were deists (under either definition, but if you want to clarify it more you'd need to know which is more correct for the time. Out of my field of expertize so I'll leave that for others to sort out) but the vast majority were not. The big names (Jefferson, Franklin, et al) get most of the play, but the lesser knowns actually did a huge amount of the nitty gritty work of getting this country on its feet - and the clear majority of them, like their countrymen of the time, were in fact Christians, not deists. In fact, a number of them were clergy! :smile:

[Rusty T]

And yet . . . 'God' was not mentioned in the Constitution - and for a dang good reason. I appreciate the founders of our nation for making it a secularist republic from its founding in the Constitution. Some of the strongest proponents of the separation of church and state were churchmen, indeed clergy.

[Teallaura]

And yet . . . 'God' was not mentioned in the Constitution - and for a dang good reason. I appreciate the founders of our nation for making it a secularist republic from its founding in the Constitution. Some of the strongest proponents of the separation of church and state were churchmen, indeed clergy.

You do know God was mentioned in the Articles, right? And that 'seperation of church and state' is a Jeffersonian quote. The actual provision is the First Amendment and it doesn't mean a state divorced from religion, but a prohibition on state establishment of a specific religion and interference with the free worship of same.

The Founders were really more concerned about a denomination to coming to dominate through state power - not any undue influence of religion per se or Christianity in general. None of their subsequent actions make sense if they were that concerned about religion/Christianity per se.

[Rusty T]

You do know God was mentioned in the Articles, right? And that 'seperation of church and state' is a Jeffersonian quote. The actual provision is the First Amendment and it doesn't mean a state divorced from religion, but a prohibition on state establishment of a specific religion and interference with the free worship of same.

The Founders were really more concerned about a denomination to coming to dominate through state power - not any undue influence of religion per se or Christianity in general. None of their subsequent actions make sense if they were that concerned about religion/Christianity per se.

The fact remains that 'God' was not mentioned in the Constitution, and this was not done unintentionally. It made many upset, and indeed there were movements among many in the religious communities of America that opposed the lack of the mentioning of God - and indeed there were attempts to rectify this 'omission' later in America's history. Many of the Founders were very aware that the 'infidel' as well as the believer deserved full rights in the new country they were founding - Jefferson among them. It was for this reason Jefferson introduced the religious freedom act in Virginia, and it was for this reason that article vi of the constitution was written.

rusty

[C. D. Ward]

Are you sure? I know Voltaire certainly excluded them.
Sure? No, but I base my opinion on my readings of writers like Paine and secondary works by historians of the period.

Paine wrote a pamphlet (http://www.deism.com/paine_essay01.htm) comparing Deism to Christianity and his belief in a benevolent God is apparent. The same kinds of sentiments can be found in the writings of other prominent 18th-century deists like Jefferson & Madison and other religious "skeptics" and non-conformists like Locke & Hobbes (whose writings influenced the rise of deism in England).

Voltaire may be a special case as some historians seem to believe he was actually an atheist, but concealed his atheism due to its difference from prevailing social mores. At any rate, French deism in general does seem to have been less "personal" than the English deism from which it grew.

It also seems to be true that, as a creed-less belief, deism contains a good deal of "variance" under its umbrella...

[Teallaura]

CD, do you have a date on that pamphlet? I couldn't find one and I'm curious about its timing.

Thanks! :smile:

[C. D. Ward]

CD, do you have a date on that pamphlet? I couldn't find one and I'm curious about its timing.
Well, I didn't but I do now. It's actually not from a pamphlet, but rather an article for a magazine called "The Prospect" and dates from 1804. More at infidels (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/prospect_papers.html).

[Teallaura]

Well, I didn't but I do now. It's actually not from a pamphlet, but rather an article for a magazine called "The Prospect" and dates from 1804. More at infidels (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/prospect_papers.html).


Thanks, I appreciate it. :flowers:

I'll have to look it up, but that sounds like it's during or after his time in France so it may not be as relevant to the founding as you're thinking. From what (little) I know of Paine, he had a major change in his religious views during his time in France. As I understand it, that change caused him considerable grief upon his return to the US.

Like I said, I gotta look it up, so that's far from certain. :shrug: Regardless, it's an interesting article.

Thanks again!

[C. D. Ward]

I'll have to look it up, but that sounds like it's during or after his time in France so it may not be as relevant to the founding as you're thinking. From what (little) I know of Paine, he had a major change in his religious views during his time in France. As I understand it, that change caused him considerable grief upon his return to the US.
Well, I've not made any argument that it was relevant to the Founding, merely that "impersonal" doesn't necessarily describe the deism of the time of the Founders, meaning "general 18th century".

It seems reasonable to suppose that Paine's beliefs underwent changes during his life, much as most of our own do. His sojourn in France certainly had some impact. Although, he had much the same views when he wrote "The Age of Reason" in 1793, and remarks therein that he had been thinking along similar lines soon after writing "Commonsense" in 1776.

At any rate, there isn't any "First Church of Deism" on the corner and without a creed or organized system of beliefs, it's difficult to define exactly who does or does not fit the label (since we really can't define the label to a reasonable degree of specificity!). Personally, I think the question "Was Founding Father X a Deist?" to be largely irrelevant as the answer doesn't really tell us anything about how they intended the State to be configured.

[Teallaura]

Well, I've not made any argument that it was relevant to the Founding, merely that "impersonal" doesn't necessarily describe the deism of the time of the Founders, meaning "general 18th century".

It seems reasonable to suppose that Paine's beliefs underwent changes during his life, much as most of our own do. His sojourn in France certainly had some impact. Although, he had much the same views when he wrote "The Age of Reason" in 1793, and remarks therein that he had been thinking along similar lines soon after writing "Commonsense" in 1776.

At any rate, there isn't any "First Church of Deism" on the corner and without a creed or organized system of beliefs, it's difficult to define exactly who does or does not fit the label (since we really can't define the label to a reasonable degree of specificity!). Personally, I think the question "Was Founding Father X a Deist?" to be largely irrelevant as the answer doesn't really tell us anything about how they intended the State to be configured.

*emphasis mine

Okay, I think I got your position confused with someone else's (that happens when Mr. Brain doesn't show up for work :blush:).

And I agree completely with the italicized bit. :yes:

[XaositectCrayon]

You do know God was mentioned in the Articles, right? And that 'seperation of church and state' is a Jeffersonian quote. The actual provision is the First Amendment and it doesn't mean a state divorced from religion, but a prohibition on state establishment of a specific religion and interference with the free worship of same.

The Founders were really more concerned about a denomination to coming to dominate through state power - not any undue influence of religion per se or Christianity in general. None of their subsequent actions make sense if they were that concerned about religion/Christianity per se.

Well the masons were a very popular amongst the countries creators. There is some evidence to point that some of the founding fathers were old Knights Templar which seen first hand the problem that Theocratic nations present. Put two and two together and you got a group of Christians and other religious people (in much smaller amounts) that understood the dangers of state religion.

[shunyadragon]

First, Not "theism", but "deism"... "Theism" is the belief in a god or gods. "Deism" is the belief in a disinterested creator, one who is not personal (in contrast with the Christian personal god).

Second, most of the founding fathers were not deist at all, but Christians. They were several deists and a (couple?) unitarian.

Third, welcome to TWeb.

The view that deism reflects a belief in a 'disinterested creator', is hostile view of a theist. The anthropomorphic view of either 'personal' or 'impersonal and disinterested', would not likely be adaquate words to describe Gods relationship to existence. Deist beliefs vary, but usually the God of deism creates, but does not use hands on techniques to relate to creation.

Unitarian would not necessarily exclude deism, and both theism and deism involve the belief in god or gods..