We will all be saved?

[Child_Of_Wisdom]

Is it possible everyone will be saved some way some how? Are there any verses in the bible that make it either possible or impossible?

[infide]

Is it possible everyone will be saved some way some how? Are there any verses in the bible that make it either possible or impossible?

It is impossible. The NT is replete with passages describing eternal, everlasting judgement coming upon people.

Matt 25:46:

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (ESV)

One interesting note about this particular verse is that eternal punishment parallels eternal life. To think that the first means a temporary time in eternal punishment should perhaps make us conclude that the righteous spend only temporary time in the eternal life as well.

"5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," (2 Thess 1, ESV)

Notice, again, in this passage the punishment is eternal destruction. If understood in the most obvious way, it would mean that destruction of some will never end, away from the presence of God.

These are just two of the many Scriptures which make the idea that all will be saved from judgement.

peace,
jd

[lee_merrill]

Matt 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (ESV)

One interesting note about this particular verse is that eternal punishment parallels eternal life. To think that the first means a temporary time in eternal punishment should perhaps make us conclude that the righteous spend only temporary time in the eternal life as well.
But then what are we to make of the passages that speak of destruction? Such as the one you quote next.

"5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," (2 Thess 1, ESV)

Notice, again, in this passage the punishment is eternal destruction. If understood in the most obvious way, it would mean that destruction of some will never end, away from the presence of God.
But what is destruction that does not destroy? It seems that Scripture is also replete with passages that speak of real destruction, John Stott and the annihilationists have a point here.

And then there are Scriptures that speak of salvation for all people:

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Now this cannot mean Savior simply in the sense of food and clothing, for I don't think Paul was laboring and striving just for that, for every person!

And again, what about the Mt. 25:46 verse? Here is a similar reference in Jude:

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Yet elsewhere we read...

Ezekiel 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them...

And yet there were no survivors in Sodom (Isa. 1:9), so I think we may hope for them, the very examples of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

I meant to add a few more comments...

And "they will pay" is more literal (instead of "they will suffer") in 2 Th. 1:9, but how can an eternal punishment be paid? So there seem to be three threads in Scripture here, and we really shouldn't have one set erase the other ones. I believe there will be eternal punishment, and destruction that destroys, and God "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:26), and I don't know how!

A tendency can be noted in the "once saved, always saved" debates, for people to pick only the assurance verses or the warning verses (and both are there), and have one set erase the other one, but this won't do...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. “All men,” say they,- “that is, some men”: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men. “All men,” say they; “that is, some of all sorts of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all sorts of men” if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the “alls” according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

I like this Spurgeoneutic!

Blessings,
Lee

[infide]

But then what are we to make of the passages that speak of destruction? Such as the one you quote next.

I'll get to it next. but lets first deal with this text in its own right. You cant use Scripture to bludgeon Scripture. So what do you make of "eternal punishment" and its parallel to "eternal life"? Are you ready to commit yourself to the idea that eternal life may be temporary?

But what is destruction that does not destroy? It seems that Scripture is also replete with passages that speak of real destruction, John Stott and the annihilationists have a point here.

Destruction that does not destroy finally, would be something like everlasting punishment as expressed in other passages. This is further emphasized by the use of the adjective "eternal". If something ends, then it is not eternal. The clearest and most logical sense to make of the concept is exactly the position that this destruction persists eternally.

And then there are Scriptures that speak of salvation for all people:

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

This could mean something like the Arminian position that Christ is sufficient to save all men, but effectively saves only those who believe. On your interpretation the phrase "especially of those who believe" is nonsense. Why especially them? Why not especially those who dont believe, because God saves them from more?

Now this cannot mean Savior simply in the sense of food and clothing, for I don't think Paul was laboring and striving just for that, for every person!

He was striving for the salvation of all! If Christ can really save all, then it makes perfect sense.

And again, what about the Mt. 25:46 verse? Here is a similar reference in Jude:

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Ohh dont think this passage could prove either way. Because the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was a one-time event, but we know nothing of their subsequent eschatological punishment. It could be the example of God's righteous judgement for sin, and an example in that way only.

Yet elsewhere we read...

Ezekiel 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them...

Isnt that talking poetically to mean the Gentile sinners, who once walked in darkness? i.e. the Gentile believers in the Church? Sodom serves as a type in that sense.

And yet there were no survivors in Sodom (Isa. 1:9), so I think we may hope for them, the very examples of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Blessings,
Lee

It doesnt take away the other passages, some said specifically by our Lord.

peace,
jd

[lee_merrill]

Hi Infide,

You can't use Scripture to bludgeon Scripture.
Agreed, most certainly!

So what do you make of "eternal punishment" and its parallel to "eternal life"?
Well, first let's notice that the righteous had eternal life, before they entered eternal life. So for them, it is not actually the start of a sequence, eternal life does not start for them at this point. Thus the start of a sequence may not be in view here, for either group, possibly the place is in view, and "eternal punishment" is parallel with "eternal fire," and "eternal life" is parallel with "the kingdom," both "fire" and "kingdom" having the sense of places.

Eternal life has several senses, not just "unending life." For instance "eternal life" is equated with Jesus himself:

1JN 5:20 He is the true God and eternal life.

And then here is a verse which contrasts "life" with "hell," and hell is a place, thus seeming to make "life" here seem to reference a place as well, a place that can be "entered" in the future:

MK 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

MT 25:41 ... into the eternal fire ...
MT 25:46 ... into eternal punishment ...

I think the parallels here show that "eternal punishment" may be considered somewhat synonymous with "eternal fire" here. And "into" implies being transferred to a place.

Are you ready to commit yourself to the idea that eternal life may be temporary?
No, nor do I believe that eternal punishment will end, but perhaps that means for the devil and his angels more specifically?

Certainly God didn't make a mistake in creating the eternal fire for the devil and his angels, and later on have to decide to also send people there as well. Thus if people, in some sense, don't belong there, then we may have reason to hope that they won't stay there.

This is further emphasized by the use of the adjective "eternal". If something ends, then it is not eternal. The clearest and most logical sense to make of the concept is exactly the position that this destruction persists eternally.
But then this would not be destruction, eternal destruction means they are destroyed, and don't come back:

Proverbs 21:28 A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.

Obadiah 1:10 Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame; you will be destroyed forever.

The Septuagint even has "aiwnos" in Oba. 1:10.

On your interpretation the phrase "especially of those who believe" is nonsense. Why especially them? Why not especially those who don't believe, because God saves them from more?
Especially now? In this age? Especially as kings? Who will the saints rule, may I ask?

And I would think avoidance of hell would be the aspect that would merit the name "especial salvation" here.

He was striving for the salvation of all!
Agreed again! I would also add that God accomplishes his purposes! So again we may hope for those he sets out seeking, "until he finds" (Luke 15:5).

Luke 15:5 And when [not if!] he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders ...

Because the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was a one-time event, but we know nothing of their subsequent eschatological punishment.
I would expect that the examples of those punished by eternal fire would experience eternal fire! But we can even grant your point, and then even just the earthly example of punishment by eternal fire has an aspect of hope, when the earthly city of Sodom is restored.

Ezekiel 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them...

Infide: Isn't that talking poetically to mean the Gentile sinners, who once walked in darkness? i.e. the Gentile believers in the Church? Sodom serves as a type in that sense.
But the references are to Sodom specifically here:

Ezekiel 16:55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before...

If this means Gentile believers, then this becomes difficult, how is the church a restoration of what the Gentile believers were before?

Ezekiel 16:50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

God did away with Gentile believers?!

Ezekiel 16:56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride...

Israel wouldn't even mention Gentile believers? No, this must mean the real city of Sodom, and the restoration must be also of these self-same people.

It doesn't take away the other passages, some said specifically by our Lord.
I agree, my verses don't erase your verses, as your verses do not erase mine.

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I really have been wanting to discuss these issues! Glad it's Infide I'm talking to, by the way, I appreciate the insight in your comments...

[Duder]

It is impossible.

With God, all things are . . .

wait for it -wait for it -wait for it -

[NeilUnreal]

Whether all will be saved or not, I do not know. What I do know is this: Christians could learn a lot from studying the concept of Bodhisattva.

-Neil

[Duder]

Whether all will be saved or not, I do not know. What I do know is this: Christians could learn a lot from studying the concept of Bodhisattva.

-Neil

I understand. Well said.

[infide]

Hi Infide,


Agreed, most certainly!


Well, first let's notice that the righteous had eternal life, before they entered eternal life. So for them, it is not actually the start of a sequence, eternal life does not start for them at this point. Thus the start of a sequence may not be in view here, for either group, possibly the place is in view, and "eternal punishment" is parallel with "eternal fire," and "eternal life" is parallel with "the kingdom," both "fire" and "kingdom" having the sense of places.

Most likely whats in view is not "places" necessarily, but states of being, right? For example, say there were two heavens, heaven one and heaven two. lets say for one billion years (standard earth time) we are in heaven one, then for the second billion we move to heaven two, and so on forever. Does that mean each time we move we "restart" eternal life? I think not.

Further, the start of the sequence has little consequence. If I start counting at 0 or i start counting at 25, i can still keep counting (1 or 26, 2 or 27, 3 or 28,...) eternally.

Eternal life has several senses, not just "unending life." For instance "eternal life" is equated with Jesus himself:

1JN 5:20 He is the true God and eternal life.

Why is Jesus called "eternal life"? its not a definition of eternal life. its because He has given it to us.

And then here is a verse which contrasts "life" with "hell," and hell is a place, thus seeming to make "life" here seem to reference a place as well, a place that can be "entered" in the future:

MK 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

MT 25:41 ... into the eternal fire ...
MT 25:46 ... into eternal punishment ...

I think the parallels here show that "eternal punishment" may be considered somewhat synonymous with "eternal fire" here. And "into" implies being transferred to a place.

Well if we follow that hermeneutic then entering "eternal life" should be considered entering a place, in which we may at some future time be removed. This cuts both ways. If you think "eternal punishment" means entering temporarily into a punishment that is independently eternal - then entering eternal life means entering temporarily into an independently eternal life.

No, nor do I believe that eternal punishment will end, but perhaps that means for the devil and his angels more specifically?

Why would God allow human punishment to end, but not angelic punishment? Are their sins beyond God's mercy?

Certainly God didn't make a mistake in creating the eternal fire for the devil and his angels, and later on have to decide to also send people there as well. Thus if people, in some sense, don't belong there, then we may have reason to hope that they won't stay there.

Thats nothing more than a hope. I may hope so too. but considering what seems to me the obvious interpretation of the teachings of Christ, i ought not hope so.

But then this would not be destruction, eternal destruction means they are destroyed, and don't come back:

Destruction in the Bible is often seen just as the righteous punishment of God. They are just using common language usage.

Proverbs 21:28 A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.

Obadiah 1:10 Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame; you will be destroyed forever.

The Septuagint even has "aiwnos" in Oba. 1:10.

Not sure if either of these passages have gehenna in mind.

Especially now? In this age? Especially as kings? Who will the saints rule, may I ask?

And I would think avoidance of hell would be the aspect that would merit the name "especial salvation" here.

I would think the most obvious meaning would be "especially the Savior of those who believe". Again, if your view is correct, then Christ is not especially the Savior of anyone, but just IS the Savior of all.


Agreed again! I would also add that God accomplishes his purposes! So again we may hope for those he sets out seeking, "until he finds" (Luke 15:5).

Luke 15:5 And when [not if!] he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders ...

Begs the question. Who are the sheep? Jesus used that terminology before to mean "the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In this context, it would mean exactly that, as the Pharisees were wondering why Jesus was receiving tax collectors and sinners.

I would expect that the examples of those punished by eternal fire would experience eternal fire! But we can even grant your point, and then even just the earthly example of punishment by eternal fire has an aspect of hope, when the earthly city of Sodom is restored.


But the references are to Sodom specifically here:

Ezekiel 16:55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before...

If this means Gentile believers, then this becomes difficult, how is the church a restoration of what the Gentile believers were before?

Ezekiel 16:50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

God did away with Gentile believers?!

Ezekiel 16:56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride...

Israel wouldn't even mention Gentile believers? No, this must mean the real city of Sodom, and the restoration must be also of these self-same people.

As I said - Sodom is a type of those who are sinners. He is speaking symbolically.

I agree, my verses don't erase your verses, as your verses do not erase mine.

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I really have been wanting to discuss these issues! Glad it's Infide I'm talking to, by the way, I appreciate the insight in your comments...

Indeed this is an interesting discussion. And I enjoy discussing things with you as well.

peace brother,
jd

[infide]

With God, all things are . . .

wait for it -wait for it -wait for it -


With God we can make square circles, "2+2=5", make murder lawful, and make God not exist?

i think not.

peace,
jd

[infide]

Whether all will be saved or not, I do not know. What I do know is this: Christians could learn a lot from studying the concept of Bodhisattva.

-Neil


Honestly, I think that is a completely seperate issue. Someone who thinks Jesus meant that some humans will be eternally punished does not withhold hope for the salvation of any single man, just that in the final account, some will not stand in the judgement of Christ.

I wish and hope for eternal punishment on no man. But such a think doesnt mean that no one will have it.

peace,
jd

[Duder]

With God we can make square circles, "2+2=5", make murder lawful, and make God not exist?

i think not.

peace,
jd

Of course. Causing two and two to make five, squaring circles and causing Himself to stop existing are not things. They are nonsense propositions that result from arbitrarilty arranging words into silly statements. So they are not things that God can do, for the reason that they are not things.

However, if God's grace is so great that nothing is impenatrable to it, now that would be something.

[Child_Of_Wisdom]

Of course. Causing two and two to make five, squaring circles and causing Himself to stop existing are not things. They are nonsense propositions that result from arbitrarilty arranging words into silly statements. So they are not things that God can do, for the reason that they are not things.

However, if God's grace is so great that nothing is impenatrable to it, now that would be something.


But doesn't the bible make it clear that some will have eternal destruction? Was Jesus lying when he said this?

[Duder]

But doesn't the bible make it clear that some will have eternal destruction? Was Jesus lying when he said this?

Perhaps we could take specific examples of His sayings and talk about them.

[Child_Of_Wisdom]

Perhaps we could take specific examples of His sayings and talk about them.

OK lets start with th already mentioned Matt 25:46

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (ESV)

[magus]

You must examine the reason for salvation.

God is a God of loving relationship. He created man because He wanted to express His love to us, in relationship. He always existed in relationship with Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

When Adam and Eve sinned, that relationship was broken. The rest of the Bible is pretty much a recounting of how God's grace and providence provided a way for us (through Jesus Christ, or Yehoshuah HaMashiah, a Jew of Jews, son of David) to return to right relations with Him.

That is what salvation is all about. It is Jesus bridging the gulf between us and God, a gulf we could never bridge ourselves. God so loved us He gave us His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes may not perish, but have life everlasting.

But God respects and loves us. If some humans decide they can do without God, then God lovingly respects that decision. Look, He's even prepared a state of being where He is not present - and that is what we call Hell. I can't even begin to imagine how that all works out.

So, the question is whether everyone is saved eventually... well, let me rework the question. Does everybody who wants to be saved is saved eventually? iow, can everyone who desires right relationship with God get it? And my personal answer is yes.

Love in Christ,
Magus

[Duder]

OK lets start with th already mentioned Matt 25:46

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (ESV)

Well, back up first to verse 45 for a clue about who the these are that are cursed in verse 46. "He will answer them: 'I assure you...'"
Now, trace it on back. Who are them? Verse 41:"Then he will say to those on his left . . ."
Keep going back. Who are those on his left? Verse 33:"The sheep he will place on his right hand, the goats on his left."
And who are the goats? Verse 32: ". . . and all the nations will be assembled before him. Then he will seperate them into two groups, as a shepard seperates sheep from goats."

The those who receive the curse in verse 46 are nations. It is nations that are gathered for judgement in this sermon - and it is nations that are divided into sheep nations and goat nations. The nations that feed the hungry and do the other compassionate things receive a special blessing, and the nations that fail in compassionate behavior will not fare so well.

Every translation I know about calls the groups gathered here "nations" - and the words that follow, such as these, them and those, refer back to the nations that are gathered and grouped before the Lord.

[Ebolav]

Hey look guys,

You sound like a bunch of Hindus or Batman fans.. You don't really believe that a jeisus christ is going to come to save humanity like some glorified superman or alien spacecraft, do you?

What are you guys, little kids? If you were Indian children in Sri Lanka you'd believe the same myth you believe now but with different names and faces attached to it, like Kalki Avatar and Vishnu.. YOur jesis would have EIGHT ARMS and an aligator tale and your Genesis would be a story about magic ant saliva creating the world.. You guys are so gullible it astounds me. There are no gods or goddesses.. There are no messiahs coming to save humanity.

If anything I think there should be an animal spirit god to come back and save the non-human animals from the Satanic Humans who have destroyed their world.. ANd you know the biggest destroyers of the planet have been western christians by far (accept of course for the atheists who are usually the scientists behind the technology)..

This is a Christian only area of TWeb. Stop posting here.

[infide]

Of course. Causing two and two to make five, squaring circles and causing Himself to stop existing are not things. They are nonsense propositions that result from arbitrarilty arranging words into silly statements. So they are not things that God can do, for the reason that they are not things.

Actually, they are THINGS. They are states of affairs. you call them "nonsense propositions" because they are logically impossible, which is exactly my point. But if you are going to say that with God all things are possible, unqualified, even if God has revealed something different, then you are going to have to deal with logically-impossible states of affairs.

In my opinion, it is logically impossible in a given possible world, that God would act contrary to His Word.

However, if God's grace is so great that nothing is impenatrable to it, now that would be something.

That is not my position.

God's grace can certainly save any individual man. It is just that God will not, in the final account, save EVERY man.

peace,
jd

[infide]

Well, back up first to verse 45 for a clue about who the these are that are cursed in verse 46. "He will answer them: 'I assure you...'"
Now, trace it on back. Who are them? Verse 41:"Then he will say to those on his left . . ."
Keep going back. Who are those on his left? Verse 33:"The sheep he will place on his right hand, the goats on his left."
And who are the goats? Verse 32: ". . . and all the nations will be assembled before him. Then he will seperate them into two groups, as a shepard seperates sheep from goats."

The those who receive the curse in verse 46 are nations. It is nations that are gathered for judgement in this sermon - and it is nations that are divided into sheep nations and goat nations. The nations that feed the hungry and do the other compassionate things receive a special blessing, and the nations that fail in compassionate behavior will not fare so well.

Every translation I know about calls the groups gathered here "nations" - and the words that follow, such as these, them and those, refer back to the nations that are gathered and grouped before the Lord.

So who bears the eternal punishment of a nation? The President? The Legislature?

The idea of the "nations being gathered" is that the whole world is brought before Him. But that means individuals who are contained in those nations.

peace,
jd

[infide]

Hey look guys,

You sound like a bunch of Hindus or Batman fans.. You don't really believe that a jeisus christ is going to come to save humanity like some glorified superman or alien spacecraft, do you?

What are you guys, little kids? If you were Indian children in Sri Lanka you'd believe the same myth you believe now but with different names and faces attached to it, like Kalki Avatar and Vishnu.. YOur jesis would have EIGHT ARMS and an aligator tale and your Genesis would be a story about magic ant saliva creating the world.. You guys are so gullible it astounds me. There are no gods or goddesses.. There are no messiahs coming to save humanity.

Indeed, I really do believe Jesus the Christ is coming back with the power of heaven.

And, btw, for the Christian, it is no insult to call us "little kids" as we are told to be like little kids by Jesus.

If anything I think there should be an animal spirit god to come back and save the non-human animals from the Satanic Humans who have destroyed their world.. ANd you know the biggest destroyers of the planet have been western christians by far (accept of course for the atheists who are usually the scientists behind the technology)..

Typical.

peace,
jd

[Duder]

So who bears the eternal punishment of a nation? The President? The Legislature?

The idea of the "nations being gathered" is that the whole world is brought before Him. But that means individuals who are contained in those nations.

peace,
jd

I suggest a different meaning - one which not only matches the literal sense of the text but the politics and culture of the time in which the speaker said it.

Rome expanded over a vast part of the ancient Old World, and the way in which the Empire kept order and control of the conquered regions was to allow a fair degree of self-rule. Roman client-nations, like Numidea, Cyrenaica, Aegyptus or Palestina would retain their own native governments, which operated under limits imposed by the master-nation of Rome and its emperor. Jesus lived in the client-nation of Palestina, and its relationship with the master-nation of Rome was a subject of keen interest to everyone in Jesus' culture.

When Jesus says that the Son of Man will gather all the nations before him, I believe he is rhetorically borrowing from this Roman political model. The Son of Man, when He returns to set the affairs of mankind to rights, will be as the emperor, and the kingdom of heaven will be as the master-nation. The nations of the earth will be accountable to Him for their behavior. Put it in this cultural context, and it makes sense.

Whether Jesus meant that He would actually call a physical gathering, or a summiit, of the nations of the earth, or whether His intent was to metaphorically point to the ultimate accountability of the nations to Him, I cannot say.

As to the matter of the eternal punishment in the text, I think if you approach this with a clean slate, you will not have to conclude that this is a casting of individual persons into the fires of hell. He says that the nations will be punished eternally - which to my mind suggests that they will be disbanded and destroyed as nations, and given a black name in history because of their poor stewardship. I cannot say that this is exactly right, but it suggests something of that sort to me.

Whatever the case, the subject of the sermon is the nations of the earth. This could be an axiomatic way of saying "people" - that is an interpretation that is possible. But the deliberate choice of the word nations, with no qualifiers like "the people of" the nations, and the absence of reference in the sermon to individuals, lead me to favor the more literal interpretation of the passage. If you look for the subject to which "they", "those" and "them" refer, there is only nations. And I think he is discussing national behavior. It is the closest He ever comes to talking politics.

[Darth Executor]

Hey look guys,


Hey look guys, it's a moron marathon and Ebolav is gunning for first place.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Infide: Most likely whats in view is not "places" necessarily, but states of being, right?
I would tend to think places is more likely than states of being, though, "inherit the kingdom ... into eternal life" and "depart from me ... into the eternal fire." But I agree that both places and states of being are meant.

lets say for one billion years (standard earth time) we are in heaven one, then for the second billion we move to heaven two, and so on forever. Does that mean each time we move we "restart" eternal life? I think not.
I would agree, that was in a way my point, that eternal life may have a different meaning than starting an interval, in Mt. 25:46, and thus also in any similar instances to come.

Further, the start of the sequence has little consequence. If I start counting at 0 or i start counting at 25, i can still keep counting (1 or 26, 2 or 27, 3 or 28,...) eternally.
Yes, but I'm not arguing that the start is at a different place, but instead, that the start of an interval may not be primarily what is in view here.

Why is Jesus called "eternal life"? its not a definition of eternal life. its because He has given it to us.
But isn't this a definition in this verse? "He is the true God [not has given us the true God], and eternal life" (1 Jn. 5:20). So eternal life sometimes does mean other than a state of being and an interval.

then entering "eternal life" should be considered entering a place, in which we may at some future time be removed. This cuts both ways.
Yes, then we would have to ask if those with eternal life can lose eternal life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish...

Now this would be redundant, if having eternal life meant without a doubt never perishing, so this may have been spoken to make it clear that once a person has eternal life, they will never lose it.

Why would God allow human punishment to end, but not angelic punishment? Are their sins beyond God's mercy?
That may well be, Satan apparently sinned in the very presence of God, in the innermost place of holiness, with his eyes seeing the revealed glory of God.

Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

Lee: Certainly God didn't make a mistake in creating the eternal fire for the devil and his angels, and later on have to decide to also send people there as well. Thus if people, in some sense, don't belong there, then we may have reason to hope that they won't stay there.

Infide: Thats nothing more than a hope. I may hope so too. but considering what seems to me the obvious interpretation of the teachings of Christ, i ought not hope so.
All my case is not resting on just this one point, though! I only mention it to show that there seems to be a glimmer of hope, even in this verse which is one of the clearest about eternal punishment.

Proverbs 21:28 A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.

Obadiah 1:10 Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame; you will be destroyed forever.

Infide: Not sure if either of these passages have gehenna in mind.
But in any case, isn't complete destruction forever indicated here in these verses?

Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.

Again, if your view is correct, then Christ is not especially the Savior of anyone, but just IS the Savior of all.
If Jesus saves some from hell altogether, isn't that special salvation, though? I would consider it that. And if your view is correct! How is Christ the Savior of all men? Saying that Jesus is sufficient to save all men is not what we read here, and then we would have "especially sufficient for those who believe," which I don't understand how Jesus can be sufficient for all, and especially sufficient for others. Being sufficient means you are sufficient.

Who are the sheep? Jesus used that terminology before to mean "the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
I would tend to think that the Pharisees were both Israelites, and lost, though. And did Jesus not seek them?

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Were the prophets not sent to seek them?

Romans 10:21 - 11:1 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Was this only a posture, without any intent?

Sodom is a type of those who are sinners. He is speaking symbolically.
Well, let's see...

Ezekiel 16:55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before...

Sinners will return to what they were before? That would not seem the type of restoration Ezekiel is describing here.

Ezekiel 16:50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
But wouldn't this include Israelite sinners? How can Israel be said to be restored, along with all sinners?

But if you are going to say that with God all things are possible, unqualified, even if God has revealed something different, then you are going to have to deal with logically-impossible states of affairs.

But one of the times Jesus said this was in response to a question about the topic of this thread!

Matthew 19:25-26 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

"Who can be saved? All things are possible," so we may indeed have hope for what seems to us impossible, even in this area...

Blessings,
Lee

[infide]

I would agree, that was in a way my point, that eternal life may have a different meaning than starting an interval, in Mt. 25:46, and thus also in any similar instances to come.
...
Yes, but I'm not arguing that the start is at a different place, but instead, that the start of an interval may not be primarily what is in view here.

If i say "enter into peace with regard to your finances". Do I have in mind you starting to do so? We are talking about the start of something, here, Lee. The start of the unimpeded life with Christ, or the start of their being punished.

But isn't this a definition in this verse? "He is the true God [not has given us the true God], and eternal life" (1 Jn. 5:20). So eternal life sometimes does mean other than a state of being and an interval.

Christ is eternal life for us. Thats another (poetic) way of saying that Christ has made eternal life possible for us. The first "is", is an "is" of essential predication. The second implied "is", is an "is" of metaphorical comparison.

And Lee, its a figure of speech, dont try to replace things in the original and say "ohh look it doesnt work". Thats the point of literary devices, to carry meaning beyond what the words say.

Yes, then we would have to ask if those with eternal life can lose eternal life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish...

Now this would be redundant, if having eternal life meant without a doubt never perishing, so this may have been spoken to make it clear that once a person has eternal life, they will never lose it.

OR it is parallelism. Dont get me wrong, i think its possible to be removed from God's presence and to lose such a state. But I'm not a Calvinist either. Being in Christ, (refer back to the above) is to be found with eternal life. To leave Christ, is to leave eternal life.

That may well be, Satan apparently sinned in the very presence of God, in the innermost place of holiness, with his eyes seeing the revealed glory of God.

So there is not a single human who has sinned in like manner? How about those who have so-called "blasphemed the Holy Spirit", for which, Jesus says - forgiveness shall NEVER be given, neither in this life, or the next?

All my case is not resting on just this one point, though! I only mention it to show that there seems to be a glimmer of hope, even in this verse which is one of the clearest about eternal punishment.

But this isnt the only verse on the matter, either.

But in any case, isn't complete destruction forever indicated here in these verses?

Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.

Perhaps.

If Jesus saves some from hell altogether, isn't that special salvation, though? I would consider it that. And if your view is correct! How is Christ the Savior of all men? Saying that Jesus is sufficient to save all men is not what we read here, and then we would have "especially sufficient for those who believe," which I don't understand how Jesus can be sufficient for all, and especially sufficient for others. Being sufficient means you are sufficient.

In this case, being sufficient means that Christ's death is able to satisfy the moral debt of the given person, should they appropriate it into their lives by acting in faith - repentance, belief, obedience.

I would tend to think that the Pharisees were both Israelites, and lost, though. And did Jesus not seek them?

They did not think they were Lost. Jesus made it clear, that those who are well have no need for a physician. Which of course, did not mean they actually WERE well, but that they felt they were. Think about it. IF you dont think you're sick, would you go to a doctor to be cured?

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Were the prophets not sent to seek them?

But they did not listen, and rebelled in pride.

Romans 10:21 - 11:1 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Was this only a posture, without any intent?

Absolutely not. Your error is to think that no human action is needed at all. Humbling oneself, repentance, etc.

Well, let's see...

Ezekiel 16:55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before...

Sinners will return to what they were before? That would not seem the type of restoration Ezekiel is describing here.

Ezekiel 16:50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
But wouldn't this include Israelite sinners? How can Israel be said to be restored, along with all sinners?

I dont have time right now to go back and read all of Ezekiel. I will take a look at those things some time.

But one of the times Jesus said this was in response to a question about the topic of this thread!

Matthew 19:25-26 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

"Who can be saved? All things are possible," so we may indeed have hope for what seems to us impossible, even in this area...

There is a difference, Lee, between something being possible and something being actual. Anyone can be saved. Not everyone will be.

peace,
jd

[lee_merrill]

Hi Infide,

Infide: If i say "enter into peace with regard to your finances". Do I have in mind you starting to do so? We are talking about the start of something, here, Lee. The start of the unimpeded life with Christ, or the start of their being punished.
I agree that there is a start here, as you say, yet again, the righteous had eternal life before they entered eternal life, so this is not so cut and dried!

Lee: But isn't this a definition in this verse? "He is the true God [not has given us the true God], and eternal life" (1 Jn. 5:20). So eternal life sometimes does mean other than a state of being and an interval.

Infide: The first "is", is an "is" of essential predication. The second implied "is", is an "is" of metaphorical comparison.
But there's only one verb in the text! Just like in the NIV translation. And reading "has made eternal life possible for us" is also not in the text, nor is it here either:

1 John 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Not "the one who makes eternal life possible"! No, "the eternal life" has appeared, and we proclaim him.

Infide: To leave Christ, is to leave eternal life.
So then an assurance that those with eternal life will never perish would be needed! So then "into eternal life" would need this assurance as well, in order to know that those who enter eternal life can never perish, and thus the interval is not necessarily indicated for each individual in Mt. 25:46.

How about those who have so-called "blasphemed the Holy Spirit", for which, Jesus says - forgiveness shall NEVER be given, neither in this life, or the next?
In this regard, we may note that Paul said he was "the worst of sinners." Now if Paul was worse than any other sinner, then may we not hope that no one will ever commit this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Also, if "all sins and blasphemies will be forgiven men," is this not also an indication of hope that no one will ever commit this sin? If all blasphemies will be forgiven?

Mark 3:28-29 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

Lee: Saying that Jesus is sufficient to save all men is not what we read here, and then we would have "especially sufficient for those who believe," which I don't understand how Jesus can be sufficient for all, and especially sufficient for others. Being sufficient means you are sufficient.

Infide: ... being sufficient means that Christ's death is able to satisfy the moral debt of the given person, should they appropriate it into their lives by acting in faith - repentance, belief, obedience.
I agree, but I was considering what "especially sufficient" might mean.

Lee: I would tend to think that the Pharisees were both Israelites, and lost, though. And did Jesus not seek them?

Infide: They did not think they were Lost. Jesus made it clear, that those who are well have no need for a physician.
But as you say, they weren't well! But I am saying that Jesus was seeking them, even though they didn't think they were lost, and thus "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" includes them.

Romans 10:21 - 11:1 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Lee: Was this only a posture, without any intent?

Infide: Absolutely not. Your error is to think that no human action is needed at all. Humbling oneself, repentance, etc.
But my point was different, I agree that humble repentance is needed! But is God not seeking all the disobedience and obstinate Israelites here?

Ezekiel 18:31-32 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 16:55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before...

Lee: Sinners will return to what they were before? That would not seem the type of restoration Ezekiel is describing here.

Infide: I dont have time right now to go back and read all of Ezekiel. I will take a look at those things some time.
But I don't think you have to read all of Ezekiel to make your reply here! "Return to what they were before" cannot work if Sodom means, generally, all sinners, and again, all sinners must include Israelite sinners, so why a distinction here, "I will restore all sinners, and also I will restore Israelite sinners"? Once you've said the first part, you don't need to say the second part.

This is important to my case here, and shouldn't require a large reading assignment! So please don't skip it...

Matthew 19:25-26 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Lee: "Who can be saved? All things are possible," so we may indeed have hope for what seems to us impossible, even in this area...

Infide: There is a difference, Lee, between something being possible and something being actual.
I am only arguing that it is not impossible for all to be saved here, though, so yes, that is just what I am addressing, if this is possible.

Infide: Anyone can be saved. Not everyone will be.
Which is what we are discussing! I would hold that there will be eternal punishment, destruction that destroys, and God all in all, in some way which to us now is unimaginable, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

I'll get to it next. but lets first deal with this text in its own right. You cant use Scripture to bludgeon Scripture. So what do you make of "eternal punishment" and its parallel to "eternal life"? Are you ready to commit yourself to the idea that eternal life may be temporary?

Two possible other readings. It could be speaking of life and punishment in the age to come. Which does not preclude life going on after that point. Or, as Tom Talbot argues, "eternal life" and eternal punishment" are not speaking of duration at all. But the source and quality.

[seer]

Ezekiel 16:55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before...

Sinners will return to what they were before? That would not seem the type of restoration Ezekiel is describing here.

I have never seen this answered. When will Sodom and Samaria be restored? And I would think that would necessarily include the people. Scripture also speaks of Moab, Ammon and Elam being restored Jer.48:47, 49:6,39. All of these were particurally wicked and long ago lost to history. Never mind the restoration of Egypt and Assyria Isa.19:22-25. Texts like these do make one wonder if in fact some form of universalism is true...

[Amazing Rando]

Well, back up first to verse 45 for a clue about who the these are that are cursed in verse 46. "He will answer them: 'I assure you...'"
Now, trace it on back. Who are them? Verse 41:"Then he will say to those on his left . . ."
Keep going back. Who are those on his left? Verse 33:"The sheep he will place on his right hand, the goats on his left."
And who are the goats? Verse 32: ". . . and all the nations will be assembled before him. Then he will seperate them into two groups, as a shepard seperates sheep from goats."

The those who receive the curse in verse 46 are nations. It is nations that are gathered for judgement in this sermon - and it is nations that are divided into sheep nations and goat nations. The nations that feed the hungry and do the other compassionate things receive a special blessing, and the nations that fail in compassionate behavior will not fare so well.

Every translation I know about calls the groups gathered here "nations" - and the words that follow, such as these, them and those, refer back to the nations that are gathered and grouped before the Lord.

Matt- the word translated as "nations" is also the same one that is translated "pagans" or "Gentiles," depending on the context. (If you're curious, the word is eqnh.) It's a very multifaceted word, and doesn't mean the same thing as "nation" does today- in other words, it doesn't refer to "country." For the Jews, it would have have meant the "outsiders."

[Duder]

Matt- the word translated as "nations" is also the same one that is translated "pagans" or "Gentiles," depending on the context. (If you're curious, the word is eqnh.) It's a very multifaceted word, and doesn't mean the same thing as "nation" does today- in other words, it doesn't refer to "country." For the Jews, it would have have meant the "outsiders."

Interesting, Rob.

If the meaning in the passage were "countries", is there a different Greek word that would have been selected, do you think?

[Amazing Rando]

Interesting, Rob.

If the meaning in the passage were "countries", is there a different Greek word that would have been selected, do you think?

Well, I'm not so sure... because I think that the idea of "countries," or "nation-states" as they're sometimes called is a modern one. Back in Jesus' day, there really was only one "country," ya know- the Roman Empire. I really don't know what word they might have used to refer to a "country" as a political entity. :nsm:

But... here's what greekbible.com says is the possible range of meanings for the word in question 1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together 1a) a company, troop, swarm 2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus 2a) the human family 3) a tribe, nation, people group 4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles 5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

Another place the same word is used by Jesus in Matthew's gospel is in the Great Commission in Matt 28:19, where Jesus famously says, "go and make disciples of all nations." You could just as easily substitute the word "pagans" or "Gentiles" in that verse for "nations."

[Duder]

Well, I'm not so sure... because I think that the idea of "countries," or "nation-states" as they're sometimes called is a modern one. Back in Jesus' day, there really was only one "country," ya know- the Roman Empire. I really don't know what word they might have used to refer to a "country" as a political entity. :nsm:

I doubt that is exactly right - I mean, they certainly must have understood that the neighboring groups had a king, just as Israel had a king, and so they would almost certainly have had some notion similar to our concept of the nation-state.

Would "εθνη" be the word they used to refer to those groups?

[Amazing Rando]

I doubt that is exactly right - I mean, they certainly must have understood that the neighboring groups had a king, just as Israel had a king, and so they would almost certainly have had some notion similar to our concept of the nation-state.

Would "εθνη" be the word they used to refer to those groups?

To my knowledge, yes, although not in terms of a political entity like Judea or Rome. It more referred to the people rather than the government. Besically, whenever you see the word "Gentile" in the New Testament, it's almost always a form of the word "εθνη."

My take on Jesus' use of the word in the sheep and goats parable is that he means everybody, not just the Gentiles, and I think that's why most translators use "nations" instead of "Gentiles" in this case. Everybody's going to stand before him in judgment, in other words, and those who thought themselves to be righteous while ignoring the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned are going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise... whatever that may be... whereas those who reach out to care for others in humility are going to find themselves very pleasantly surprised by the honor Jesus accords them- after all, truly selfless love gives regardless of receiving a reward in the end or not.

[smaller]

OK lets start with th already mentioned Matt 25:46

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (ESV)

Having been in the scriptural hunt for the better part of dozens (2) of years and on the subject of the salvation of all of mankind for about 10 of those years there is only one plausible way for all of mankind to be saved without serious damage being rendered to the scriptures.

Few take this view in hand because it requires the admittance of somethings dwelling within themselves that are not them and this view may frighten them or this view can literally be hidden from them by the very powers that are spoken of and revealed by The Word.

Matthew 25 is an excellent example. A classic. Romans 9 is another. Many accounts from the O.T. will echo the view as well, but in shadow versions. Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Ephraim and Manasseh are all various physical statements of a simple principle that when revealed cannot be denied by any in their right mind.

I should be able to find amongst "christians" no doubt in the scriptural fact that the devil and his messengers are slated for the Lake of Fire.

The burning question so to speak revolves around this question:

Where do we find the devil and his messengers?

When we turn to Jesus' Words Works and Ways in the Gospels the overwhelming evidentiary evidence is that these entities dwell in the flesh of mankind.

Using this understanding it becomes exceptionally clear that Jesus could look Peter directly in the eye and state to him "Get thee behind me SATAN!"

hello. Satan entered Judas. Mary Magdalene had 7 devils extracted from her body. On and on this principle is openly shown, that devils dwell in people.

IF this understanding is true (and I would challenge the mentality of any true believer in Christ who denies this understanding) then it is a perfectly legitimate understanding to also believe that the entire sum total of all damnation scriptures can be directly applied only to the devil and his messengers and not to mankind.

Think about the simplicity of this observation for a moment and then write some sense back to me. I personally have found this understanding to be beyond question, but I also understand that the god of this world will rise up in people to blind them to this fact and to challenge this fact in order to preserve his lie that this fate is for God's offspring (all mankind-Acts 17:23-30) as well.

See if God's Word can bring you out from under the ether of eternal human torture.

2 Corinthians 4:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

May The Day Star arise in your hearts and the goat(s) of darkness in you be damned and burned by The Truth of God's Everlasting Victory for all mankind.

"I will draw all men to me."

"All who come to me I will in no wise cast out."

enjoy!

smaller

[smaller]

To my knowledge, yes, although not in terms of a political entity like Judea or Rome. It more referred to the people rather than the government. Besically, whenever you see the word "Gentile" in the New Testament, it's almost always a form of the word "εθνη."

My take on Jesus' use of the word in the sheep and goats parable is that he means everybody, not just the Gentiles, and I think that's why most translators use "nations" instead of "Gentiles" in this case.

I always slowly shake my head when I see this type of understanding applied to Matt. 25.

Look, the bottom line here is that there are essentially 2 Nations. A Sheep Nation and a Goat nation.

There are also only 2 disclosed parties to this separation of the 2 nations.

Mankind (1) and Devilkind (2)

Only one of these nations is slated for fire. One of these nations is overlayed upon the other. That is why the must be "separated" by The Living Word.

Do the math.

! !

[smaller]

An interesting footnote to the phenomena previously described:


In Parallel Worlds, physicist Michio Kaku writes that:

Anyone who can tap into the fourth spatial dimension (or what is today called the fifth dimension, with time being the fourth) can indeed become invisible, and can even assume the powers normally ascribed to ghosts and gods.... [I]n a four- dimensional world we are the flatlanders, oblivious of the fact that higher planes of existence might hover right above ours. We believe that our world consists of all that we can see, unaware that there may be entire universes right above our noses. Although another universe might be hovering just inches above us, floating in the fourth dimension, it would appear to be invisible.

Kaku adds, "several experiments are now being conducted to detect the presence of parallel universes that might be hovering just above ours."

enjoy!

smaller

[Amazing Rando]

I always slowly shake my head when I see this type of understanding applied to Matt. 25.

Look, the bottom line here is that there are essentially 2 Nations. A Sheep Nation and a Goat nation.

There are also only 2 disclosed parties to this separation of the 2 nations.

Mankind (1) and Devilkind (2)

Only one of these nations is slated for fire. One of these nations is overlayed upon the other. That is why the must be "separated" by The Living Word.

Do the math.

! !

If you knew any Greek or read what I just typed to Duder, you'd realize that reading the idea of a political "nation" into the greek word eqnh is completely inappropriate to the original context of the passage.

[Pilgrim]

This forum is only intended for those of orthodox Christian persuasion.

[smaller]

* edited by a moderator *

If you knew any Greek or read what I just typed to Duder, you'd realize that reading the idea of a political "nation" into the greek word eqnh is completely inappropriate to the original context of the passage.

My observation will stand.

2 nations. 2 disclosed parties. Separated.

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

[Duder]

To my knowledge, yes, although not in terms of a political entity like Judea or Rome. It more referred to the people rather than the government. Besically, whenever you see the word "Gentile" in the New Testament, it's almost always a form of the word "εθνη."

My take on Jesus' use of the word in the sheep and goats parable is that he means everybody, not just the Gentiles, and I think that's why most translators use "nations" instead of "Gentiles" in this case. Everybody's going to stand before him in judgment, in other words, and those who thought themselves to be righteous while ignoring the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned are going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise... whatever that may be... whereas those who reach out to care for others in humility are going to find themselves very pleasantly surprised by the honor Jesus accords them- after all, truly selfless love gives regardless of receiving a reward in the end or not.

In a way Rob, you are almost undercutting your own position here. You're saying that the Lord used the term nations (εθνη) in a sense that refers to the gentile peoples as distinct from the Jewish people. But that goes agaisnt what you say He meant - the gentiles and the Hebrews.

As I explained in that post several days ago, I think your interpretation of the nations as a metaphor for "all the people" is a possibility. He could have meant that. I think, also, that you will have to admit my interpretation is also possible - that He meant just what He said and that nations means nations in this sermon.

I think our difference of opinion about how to take this word nations arises from our different stances toward hell - to some extent we each find confirmation here for what we already think. Is that fair?

The explaination of Matthew 25 that I gave above was in answer to how the passage was presented - as a confirmation of the traditional picture off hell. My intend was to show that it does not necessary lead there.