Did Jesus pay the price for all sin? LDS leaders said no.

[Exmo-Robertson]

In a manuscript written in 1839, Reed Peck said that Joseph Smith claimed he had a revelation in which Apostle Peter told him that he had killed Judas: "He [Joseph Smith] talked of dissenters and cited us to the case of Judas, saying that Peter told him in a conversation a few days ago that himself hung Judas for betraying Christ..." (The Reed Peck Manuscript, p.13).

Although this doctrine was kept secret at first, when the Mormons were settled in Utah they began to teach it openly. On December 13, 1857, Heber C. Kimball, a member of the First Presidency, preached in the Tabernacle that

"Judas lost that saving principle, and they took him and killed him. It is said in the Bible that his bowels gushed out; but they actually kicked him until his bowels came out.... Judas was like salt that had lost its saving principles - good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.... It is so with you, ye Elders of Israel, when you forfeit your covenants.... I know the day is right at hand when men will forfeit their Priesthood and turn against us and against the covenants they have made, and they will be destroyed as Judas was" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp.125-26).

President Brigham Young, who at first denied the doctrine of blood atonement, became one of its greatest advocates:

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.

"I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine, but it is to save them, not to destroy them.... I know there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days, and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man. That is the reason why men talk to you as they do from this stand; they understand the doctrine and throw out a few words about it. You have been taught that doctrine, but you do not understand it (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.53-54; also published in the Deseret News, October 1, 1856, p.235).

Since this sermon was published in the official organ of the Mormon church there can be no doubt that blood atonement was a doctrine of the church.

J. M. Grant, who was a member of the First Presidency under Brigham Young, made some very strong statements concerning blood atonement:

Some have received the Priesthood and a knowledge of the things of God, and still they dishonor the cause of truth, commit adultery, and every other abomination beneath the heavens,... they will seek unto wizards that peep,... get drunk and wallow in the mire and filth, and yet they call themselves Saints,... there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood.

We have those amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are of too deep a dye.

You may think that I am not teaching you Bible doctrine, but what says the apostle Paul? I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.49-50; also published in Deseret News, Oct. 1, 1856).


In another thread I will give you a list of the sins they considered worthy of death.

[Kevin W. Graham]

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai048.html

http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/blood.html


Among the things to be regretted in connection with the "Reformation," and from which the church has suffered much, through misapprehension of her real attitude in respect of the matters involved, are certain extreme and unqualified utterances of some of the leading elders of the church on what it has become custom to call "blood atonement;" by which is meant, as commonly represented by anti-"Mormon" writers, a claimed right on the part of the church to shed the blood of men guilty of heinous crimes, such as murder, adultery, and apostasy; and which, since such acts may not be done openly, and by legal authority vested in the church, then secretly, by assassination. [1]

That there are crimes for which the law of God prescribed capital punishment; and which, under the union of the spiritual and temporal power—under the blending of civil and religious authority in the old state-theocratic government of ancient Israel existed—may not be denied. As for example, in the case of murder, the law given to Noah and his posterity was: "At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of men. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." [2] This law was carried over into the Mosaic polity; and the list of crimes enlarged to include capital punishment for assault of children upon parents; for stealing men and selling them into slavery; for witchcraft; for beastiality; for idolatry; for violating the Sabbath day; for adultery. [3] Capital punishment, however, in ancient Israel, was not left to be executed by irresponsible individuals, and at their caprice. It was sternly regulated by law and executed by legally designated agencies. There are sins enumerated also in the New Testament for which it is said there is no forgiveness. "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him," saith St. John. [4] "Who so speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." [5] "He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness," is the more impressive declaration of St. Mark, "but is in danger of eternal damnation." [6]

"It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." [7]

It is very clear that other New Testament writers recognized a "sin unto death:" "If any man," said St. John, "see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." [8] "For," as declares the writer to the Hebrews, "if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" [9]

It follows as logical conclusion in such cases as are here enumerated that the matter stands with them as if no atonement of the Christ had been made, and they themselves must pay the penalty of their sins. "The life of the flesh," said Moses, is in the blood; "and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." [10]

It may, of course, be urged that reference is here made to the blood of beasts and birds appointed to be slain in sacrifice; and that their blood, typifying the blood of the Christ, which would be shed for remission of sin, was given to ancient Israel to make atonement for their souls; and it is true, as Paul said of the law, "almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission." [11] But if, as seems to be the case, from the foregoing considerations, there are certain limitations to vicarious atonement, even to the vicarious atonement of the Christ, then these ancient laws proclaiming that the life of the flesh is in the blood, and that "the blood maketh an atonement for the soul," make plain what is needful for the salvation of the soul where one's sins place him beyond the reach of vicarious means of salvation—then it is the shedding of the sinners own blood that must here be referred to. [12] Paul evidently recognized such cases as these; for in referring to one who had been guilty of such sin as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, "that one should have his father's wife," he said:

"For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." [13]

Here then is the doctrine taught that by "destruction of the flesh," there is hope that "the spirit might be saved, in the day of the Lord Jesus." And no one can say that Brigham Young went beyond this when he said—and this is one of the offensive passages so frequently quoted against him by anti-"Mormon" writers:

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.

I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them. * * *

I do know that there are sins committed of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins. It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall, and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit." [14]

The doctrine of "blood atonement," then, is based upon the scriptural laws considered in the foregoing paragraphs. The only point at which complaint may be justly laid in the teaching of the "Reformation" period is in the unfortunate implication that the Church of the Latter-day Saints, or individuals in that church, may execute this law of retribution. [15] Fortunately, however, the suggestions seemingly made in the overzealous words of some of these leading elders were never acted upon. The church never incorporated them into her polity. Indeed, it would have been a violation of divine instruction given in the New Dispensation had the church attempted to establish such procedure. As early as 1831 the law of the Lord was given to the church as follows:

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church: Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die. * * * And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill, they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness, and it shall be proven according to the laws of the land." [16]

The same disposition was directed to be made with reference to those who should rob, steal, or lie, that is, they should be delivered up to be dealt with "according to the laws of the land," [17] Those who committed adultery, and repented not, were to be cast out.

A few months later, August, 1831, the Lord said in connection with the purchase of lands in Jackson county:

"Satan putteth it into their hearts [i. e., the hearts of the Missourians] to anger against you, and to the shedding of blood; wherefore the land of Zion, shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood, otherwise there is none inheritance for you. And if by purchase, behold you are blessed; and if by blood, as you are forbidden to shed blood, lo, your enemies are upon you, and ye shall be scourged from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, and but few shall stand to receive an inheritance." [18]

Moreover, in the very discourse, most frequently quoted by anti-"Mormon" writers against the church on this point—ante this chapter—Brigham Young very clearly indicates that neither the church nor individual members of it had any right to execute the law of retribution he had been discussing. He could refer to "plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain in order to atone for their sins," doubtless having in mind the many such instances named in the scriptures under the law and polity received through Moses; and the legal executions in those nations and states that give sanction to capital punishment for some of these offenses; he had "seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance [in the last resurrection there would be] if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty;" he "had known a great many men who have left this church [i. e. of the Latter-day Saints] for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation; but if their blood had been spilled, [for their crimes, not because they left the church] it would have been better for them;"—yet "the wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force." [19]

All which is but recognition of the fact that said law of God is not now in force, and the "ignorance" of the nations now in power will not permit it to go into force. Under these circumstances, then, what is to be done? On the one hand is God's law of retribution that would destroy certain sinners in the flesh for their crimes, that "the spirit," to use the language of Paul, "might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus;" [20] on the other hand are the "ignorant nations" who will not authorize the penalties affixed to some divine laws, nor prescribe the methods of execution that the law of God anciently ordained; and the church, as an organization, and the individuals comprising it, are forbidden to inflict the physical punishment of death, or any other physical punishment. Under these circumstances, I ask again, what is to be done? Just what Brigham Young did, issue the declaration he made in the very discourse here under consideration, the discourse of February 8th, 1857, but which declaration has never received consideration by anti-"Mormon" writers, nor allowed its place in modifying the spirit of the whole discourse quoted,—often misquoted, and always in some fashion garbled—namely:

"The time has been in Israel under the law of God * * * that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed; * * * but now, I say, in the name of the Lord, that if this people will sin no more, but faithfully live their religion, their sins will be forgiven them without taking life." [21]

And that was and is the course and policy followed by the church. If there has been departure in any degree from that policy, and the positive, divine injunction to the church and its individual members—"Thou shalt not kill"—if this injunction has been violated, the responsibility for such departure rests wholly upon the guilty individuals and not upon the church.

It should be noted in this connection that in the individual cases of "blood atonement" charged, the allegations rest upon the word of men who are themselves self-confessed murderers and outlaw desperadoes; or else the charge rests upon the word of anonymous writers; or the cases specified are not such as fall under the category of so-called "blood atonement."

Of the first class the accounts of "blood atonement" are by such characters as John D. Lee, of the "Mountain Meadows" horror, [22] and of William A. Hickman, commonly known as "Bill," Hickman—a typical western desperado; [23] these, et al, loosely ascribe responsibility for their crimes to leading "Mormon" church officials, especially to alleged orders or to the veiled suggestions of President Brigham Young. It would violate all the canons of standard historical writing to consider seriously charges made by such characters. [24]

Of the second class, viz., anonymous persons, usually apostate "Mormons," who kept their identity concealed, it is alleged, through fear of assassination should they be identified with their disclosures, and whose tales of blood and cruelty and of oppression struggle out of obscurity to public attention through sensational writers. These are represented by such anonymous persons as those whose statements are admitted into the pages of Stenhouse, in his Rocky Mountain Saints; [25] by Beadle, in his Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism; [26] by Reverend (!) C. P. Lyford, in his Mormon Problem; [27] and by many others who from one pretense or another conceal the identity of their alleged informers. And yet, as remarked in an official document signed by the first presidency of the church and the twelve apostles, in 1889, there seems to have been no danger to such characters either from open or secret church agencies. "Notwithstanding all the stories told about the killing of apostates," says the document referred to, no case of this kind has ever occurred, and of course has never been established against the church we represent. Hundreds of seceders from the church have continuously resided and now live in this territory, many of whom have amassed considerable wealth, though bitterly opposed to the "Mormon" faith and people. Even those who made it their business to fabricate the vilest falsehoods, and to render them plausible by culling isolated passages from old sermons without the explanatory context, and have suffered no opportunity to escape them of vilifying and blackening the characters of the people, have remained among those whom they have thus persistently calumniated until the present day, without receiving the slightest personal injury. [28]

Of the third class of cases, viz., those that do not properly come within the category of alleged "blood atonement" cases, such as where a father or brother personally avenges the outraged chastity of a daughter or sister; or a wronged husband slays the despoiler of his domestic peace and home. Such cases are not peculiar to communities of Latter-day Saints in the United States, they are recognized as appeals to the "unwritten law of the land;" and trial juries quite generally in the United States refuse to convict, either for manslaughter or murder those who take the law into their own hands in such cases. Granting that the severity of the denunciations against violations of chastity and the purity of the home encouraged appeals to "the unwritten law," and hence that such appeals were made more frequently in Utah than elsewhere,—if they were more frequent than elswhere in western America—it still remains to be determined whether or not that is a reproach to the community, or a tribute to the high sense of honor, the virility, the strength, and the courage of the community's manhood. [29]

But this whole question of "blood atonement," so much iterated and reiterated by anti-"Mormon" writers, is put at rest, so far as the church's relationship to it is concerned, by an official proclamation upon the subject, in addition to the divine instructions to the church already cited in this chapter. I give the title and formal introduction to the proclamation, and so much of the document as deals with the subject in hand, and the signatures:

MANIFESTO OF THE PRESIDENCY AND APOSTLES

"SALT LAKE CITY, Dec. 12th, 1889.

To Whom It May Concern:

In consequence of gross misrepresentations of the doctrines, aims and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly called the 'Mormon' church, which have been promulgated for years, and have recently been revived for political purposes and to prevent all aliens, otherwise qualified, who are members of the 'Mormon' church from acquiring citizenship, we deem it proper on behalf of said church to publicly deny these calumnies and enter our protest against them.

We solemnly make the following declarations, viz.:

That this church views the shedding of human blood with the utmost abhorrence. That we regard the killing of a human being, except in conformity with the civil law, as a capital crime, which should be punished by shedding the blood of the criminal after a public trial before a legally constituted court of the land. * * *

We denounce as entirely untrue the allegation which has been made, that our church favors or believes in the killing of persons who leave the church or apostatize from its doctrines. We would view a punishment of this character for such an act with the utmost horror; it is abhorrent to us and is in direct opposition to the fundamental principles of our creed.

The revelations of God to this church make death the penalty of capital crime, and require that offenders against life and property shall be delivered up and tried by the laws of the land.

We declare that no bishop's or other court in this church claims or exercises civil or judicial functions, or the right to supercede, annul or modify a judgment of any civil court. Such courts, while established to regulate Christian conduct, are purely ecclesiastical, and their punitive powers go no further than the suspension or excommunication of members from church fellowship. * * *

[Signed]:

"WILFORD WOODRUFF, GEORGE Q. CANNON, JOSEPH F. SMITH,

Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

LORENZO SNOW, GEORGE TEASDALE,
FRANKLIN D. RICHARDS, HEBER J. GRANT,
BRIGHAM YOUNG, JOHN W. TAYLOR,
MOSES THATCHER, W. W. MERRILL,
FRANCIS M. LYMAN, A. H. LUND,
JOHN HENRY SMITH, ABRAHAM H. CANNON,

Members of the Council of the Apostles.

JOHN W. YOUNG, DANIEL H. WELLS, Counselors." [30]

NOTES

1. See Linn's Story of the Mormons, 1902, book v. ch. ix. Life in Utah, or the Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism, Beadle, 1870, ch. xii. Stenhouse's Rocky Mountain Saints, ch. xxxv. Stenhouse's chapter on the "Reformation" and "Blood Atonement," and constituting the most circumstantial narrative on the excesses of the "Reformation." is largely the contribution of an annonymous writer, a fact that goes far towards destroying the trustworthiness of the statements made. (Waite's Mormon Prophet, 1866, ch. ix. Lights and Shadows of Mormonism, Gibbs, 1909, ch. xxiv).

2. Gen., ix:5, 6.

3. See Exodus, xx, xxi, xxxi; and Leviticus, xxiv. Also Leviticus, xx, cf. Matt., xv:1-9; St. John, viii:3-12.

4. I John, iii:15.

5. St. Matt., xii:32.

6. St. Mark, iii:28, 29.

7. Heb. vi:4-6.

8. I John, v:16.

9. Heb. x:26-29.

10. Leviticus, xvii:11.

11. Heb., ix:22.

12. Not, however,—as I have already urged in preceding pages—by the church; certainly not by individuals taking it upon themselves to be the ministers of God's vengeance; for then they themselves would become murderers. "To me belongeth vengeance and recompense," saith the Lord (Deut., xxxii: 35). "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," saith the Lord (Rom., xii); and therefore must this matter of retribution for sin be left with God and those agencies that he shall ordain to encompass it. These, in part, are the secular governments in whose polities capital punishments are provided for some of the more heinous crimes against society and government, such as murder in the first degree, etc. Therefore the church is commanded to give up those who kill to be dealt with according to the law of the land. And Latter-day Saints believe that where secular government prescribes capital punishment it is better that such form of execution be adopted as will shed the blood of the criminal; hence in Utah, when the Latter-day Saints, in their capacity as citizens of the state have made the laws, condemned criminals, subject to capital punishment, are permitted to choose their mode of execution either by being hung or shot, the latter mode, of course, resulting in the shedding of their blood, thus meeting the requirements of the law of God as well as the law of the state. It is quite erroneously supposed that this idea had its origin among Latter-day Saints with Brigham Young. That, however, is not the case. In the minutes of the Nauvoo city council for March 4th, 1843, occurs the following statement by Joseph Smith: "In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, [this does not mean that he would do so personally; see context of speech], or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so." (History of the Church, Period I, vol. v, p. 296).

13. I Cor., v:1-5.

14. Discourse Sept. 21st, 1856, Deseret News of Oct. 1st, 1856; also Journal of Discourses, vol. iv, p. 53.

15. The passages that warrant the remarks of the text are to be found in a discourse of Jedediah M. Grant on March 12th, 1854, Deseret News, July 27th, 1854; also a discourse on the 21st of September, 1856, Journal of Discourses, vol. iv, p. 49, et seq. Also a discourse delivered by Brigham Young on Feb. 8th, 1857. Journal of Discourses, vol. pp. 219-220.

16. Doctrine and Covenants, sec. xlii:18, 19, 79.

17. Ibid, verses 84-86.

18. Doctrine and Covenants, sec. lxiii. For fuller exposition see this History, ch. xxi.

19. Discourse of Feb. 8th, 1857, Journal of Discourses, vol. iv, p. 220.

20. I Cor., v:3-5.

21. Journal of Discourses, vol. iv, p. 219.

22. See Mormonism Unveiled, Life and Confession of John D. Lee, especially ch. xix. This book—M. E. Mason, publisher, St. Louis, Mo., 1891—is edited by Wm. W. Bishop, Lee's attorney, at his second trial, 1876.

23. Brigham's Destroying Angel, Life, Confession and Startling Disclosures of Bill Hickman, the 'Danite Chief' of Utah, edited by J. H. Beadle, 1870. Beadle is also the author of Life in Utah; Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

[Kevin W. Graham]

This is a common theme in anti-Mormonism. They take advantage of the fact that there is so much LDS literature from early 19th century, and they apply this to 21st century Mormonism for the sake of shock value.

For example, yes, Brigham Young believed death was a good penalty for theft, but hey, guess what... so did every other Christian minister of the time. That was their penalty for Joseph Smith simply because he was a "false prophet." (Salem witch hunts ring a bell?) But you won't hear this from Dana's half-truthed polemic. Remember, this was the wild west and anything from simple horse theft was enough for an immediate hanging. I pointed this out to JP a few months ago and he agreed with me. Cultural context plays a major role in how we interpret things. But antis like Dana have no care at all for this.. they want to apply early 19th century LDS quotes to present day Mormonism for one purpose alone: SHOCK VALUE to those divorced from the cultural and historical context.

This is one defining element in Deckerite polemic, and Dana is simply following his mentor to a T. SUre he'll point out how Brigham Young felt about blacks, but he won't let you in on the fact that the LDS Church was unique in that it at least allowed blacks to go to Church with the whites. Neither will he point out that slavery was something Joseph Smith disagreed with, and in fact, this was a major reason why Mormons were thrown out of Missouri. The fear was that their majority Mormon vote would influence the slavery issue, and they were pro-slavery in that area.

If you want an honest comparison of how the LDS view of Blacks has compared to that of PRotestant Christianity then look no further: http://www.fairlds.org/apol/morm201/m20116.html


http://www.fairlds.org/apol/morm201/m20116.html

[dizzle]

Egad! A person atoning for their own sins :no:

[Kevin W. Graham]

When you think about it though, this boils down to a faith-works debate. Is there really NOTHING we are supposed to do in the process of our salvation? It depends on whether or not you see faith as an action or not. We do. Some peple don't. I think if some woudl analyze their own position, they may see it as rather silly. If we really have to do NOTHING whicle at the same time CHrist atones for ALL sins, then logically speaking, everyone goes to heaven no questions asked. To argue anything else is to merely breach the bounds of logic.

As far as sins that Christ doesn't atone for, the Bible tells us of at least one. The sin against the Holy Ghost. So it is silly to really argue that Christ does EVERYTHING for ANY sin. I've seen some argue whether or not anyone could really sin against the HG, but this is beside the point. The Bible says any such sin is unforgiveable, period.

Mormons believe Christ saves all who folow Him. Without His atonement nobody is saved, but it must be accepted first. Those 19th century Mormons did not think they could atone for their own sins and be saved by themeslves. At best, it was a united effort with Christ, never by themselves. Big difference here. The work of Christ is never excluded.

[Bill the Cat]

Yesterday @ 06:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=136209#post136209)
Kevin W. Graham:

When you think about it though, this boils down to a faith-works debate. Is there really NOTHING we are supposed to do in the process of our salvation?

Here's number one. We as Evangelical Protestants believe salvation is instantaneous (sp?) and sanctification is the process. Our slavation is predicated on God's grace meeting our faith, and nothing else.

It depends on whether or not you see faith as an action or not. We do. Some peple don't. I think if some woudl analyze their own position, they may see it as rather silly.

I disagree. Our faith and trust in Him is not silly, nor is it considered works.


If we really have to do NOTHING while at the same time Christ atones for ALL sins, then logically speaking, everyone goes to heaven no questions asked. To argue anything else is to merely breach the bounds of logic.

Well the whole premise here is based on our "doing nothing" Christ atoned for all sins in the manner that for us to accept the propitation ( I think that's what it's called) we must put Him as Lord of our life and accept the sacrifice.

As far as sins that Christ doesn't atone for, the Bible tells us of at least one. The sin against the Holy Ghost. So it is silly to really argue that Christ does EVERYTHING for ANY sin. I've seen some argue whether or not anyone could really sin against the HG, but this is beside the point. The Bible says any such sin is unforgiveable, period.

Agreed. This is the only sin that is not atoned for, but there is a belief that it is post mortem sin, or demonic sin.

Mormons believe Christ saves all who folow Him.

This is misleading. Mormons believe Christ saves everyone, but those who follow are assigned a higher station. Correct?

Without His atonement nobody is saved, but it must be accepted first.

to enter which Kingdom?

Those 19th century Mormons did not think they could atone for their own sins and be saved by themeslves. At best, it was a united effort with Christ, never by themselves. Big difference here. The work of Christ is never excluded.

Maybe not be saved to exaltation, but BY did say this:

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants. (A Discourse by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, March 16, 1856).

[Exmo-Robertson]

:yipee: :thumb:

[ArizonaEd]

just look up their interpretation of Eph 2.8-9. We are saved by grace, after all that we can do...

[Janice]

Mormons believe Christ saves everyone, but those who follow are assigned a higher station. Correct?

Only those who go to highest level of the highest kingdom will have eternal life and spend eternity with the Mormon heavenly father. I wouldn't call anything else salvation.

“The elect of God comprise a very select group, an inner circle of faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are the portion of church members who are striving with all their hearts to keep the fulness of the gospel law in this life so that they can become inheritors of the fulness of gospel rewards in the life to come” - McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 217


“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.” - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41

"Only through celestial marriage can one find the strait way, the narrow path. Eternal life cannot be had in any other way." - Pres. Spencer W. Kimball as quoted in the Deseret News, Church News, Nov. 12, 1977

[Bill the Cat]

Only those who go to highest level of the highest kingdom will have eternal life and spend eternity with the Mormon heavenly father. I wouldn't call anything else salvation.

Bruce McConkie did

"Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever."



“The elect of God comprise a very select group, an inner circle of faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are the portion of church members who are striving with all their hearts to keep the fulness of the gospel law in this life so that they can become inheritors of the fulness of gospel rewards in the life to come” - McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 217


“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.” - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41

"Only through celestial marriage can one find the strait way, the narrow path. Eternal life cannot be had in any other way." - Pres. Spencer W. Kimball as quoted in the Deseret News, Church News, Nov. 12, 1977

Yet again more examples of Mormon leaders contradicting other Mormon leaders. And even then, some of the same leaders contradict themselves in the same works you cite!


It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works.

[Janice]

It is true that LDS sometimes refer to resurrection as salvation, but while calling it a general salvation which is free to all humans, they know that that type of salvation amounts to eternal separation from Heavenly Father.

Doctrine & Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Doctrine & Covenants 132

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?
12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.
36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.
37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.
43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a vow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.
44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.
45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.
46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.
48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.
50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

[BurntOffering]

Yes He did; Thank you Jesus for saving a wretch like me. (Heb. 10:7-10)

As told b y Satan, Risen, Reborn, In Christ, Member of His Body, as His sister spirit and Wife.

Peace out

[Bill the Cat]

It is true that LDS sometimes refer to resurrection as salvation, but while calling it a general salvation which is free to all humans, they know that that type of salvation amounts to eternal separation from Heavenly Father.

Hi Janice. You are correct that the lower kingdoms are considered separation from the Father, but in the telestial kingdom, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are present, and in the terrestrial kingdom, the Holy Spirit is present. Not too bad an estate to be in the presence of a god or two. the terms salvation and exaltation are different in Mormonism, but not in Christianity.

[Janice]

Hi Janice. You are correct that the lower kingdoms are considered separation from the Father, but in the telestial kingdom, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are present, and in the terrestrial kingdom, the Holy Spirit is present. Not too bad an estate to be in the presence of a god or two. the terms salvation and exaltation are different in Mormonism, but not in Christianity.

Wrong answer. It is bad to be separated from Heavenly Father for eternity; to be disowned by Him!

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.” - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41(emphasis mine)

Outside the Father's house, you aren't even His son or daughter. Have you been disowned by your earthly father? Do you know what that feels like?


“So we must conclude that those spoken of in verse 26[D & C 132] are those who, having sinned, have fully repented and are willing to pay the price of their sinning, else the blessings of exaltation will not follow. Repentance is absolutely necessary for the forgiveness, and the person having sinned must be cleansed.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:95–96.) - D & C Student Manual, page 330

[Janice]

just look up their interpretation of Eph 2.8-9. We are saved by grace, after all that we can do...

“So we must conclude that those spoken of in verse 26[D & C 132] are those who, having sinned, have fully repented and are willing to pay the price of their sinning, else the blessings of exaltation will not follow. Repentance is absolutely necessary for the forgiveness, and the person having sinned must be cleansed.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:95–96.) - D & C Student Manual, p. 330

[Bill the Cat]

Wrong answer. It is bad to be separated from Heavenly Father for eternity; to be disowned by Him!

I understand your point and the doctrines involved. It brings up an interesting predicament for the LDS that they don't see. The Father disowns those bound for the telestial kingdom, but the Son and the Spirit do not. How can that be?

[Janice]

I understand your point and the doctrines involved. It brings up an interesting predicament for the LDS that they don't see. The Father disowns those bound for the telestial kingdom, but the Son and the Spirit do not. How can that be?

Not that any of it makes sense, but the Father is superior to the other members of the LDS Godhead.

One God or Three?
Naturally, these propositions present a problem. Are there three Gods or one? For Latter-day Saints, it is acceptable to say both that there is one God, and that there is a plurality of Gods, depending on the context. For example, in one sense the Father is "the only true God." "Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . ; but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all."5 That is, even if there are other Gods, the one with ultimate power and authority pertaining to us is the Father. In another sense there is a plurality of Gods. Again, quoting Joseph Smith, "I have always declared [that] . . . these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods."6

5 Joseph Smith, in TPJS 370-371, emphasis in original.

6 Joseph Smith, in TPJS 370. - Barry Robert Bickmore, Restoring the Ancient Church, as quoted at fairlds.


Note: "That is, even if there are other Gods, the one with ultimate power and authority pertaining to us is the Father."

Okay, the word disown is not in LDS writings, but according to their teachings, that is what it amounts to. He will never allow them in his presence.