Rubia's questions about the trinity

[Rubia Warren]

Sorry, you guys- I couldn't wait any longer.
In case you don't know, I believe in oneness... not completely and wholeheartedly, but more so than the trinity.
In case you didn't notice, I put this thread in the liberal arts section for a reason... I am not looking for a debate. I will say it again: I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE.
I have questions about the possiblity that God MAY be triune, many of which are philisophical, and some that are scriptural, and I am hoping that someone(s) with patience can answer them.
I also would like to ask that you please not give me any negative information regarding the history of oneness pentecostals, the UPCI, any "Jesus- name only" organization, cults, or any beliefs that often go along with oneness, or any other negative vibe that you wanna be givin'- I know exactly where the Apologetic websites are located, and have read them numerous times- there's not much new that you will be able to tell me. I just want this thread to be about answers to my questions about the trinity- I also want to discuss salvation and orthodoxy as little as possible, if it can be helped... as I said: IF it can be helped.
I am going through some really huge big time stuff right now...the firm foundation of many things that I thought were given to me directly from God and not man (not necessarily regarding the "trinity", but other things mostly) have now been turned into a massive ball of confusion and I have no solid foundation anymore. It is getting really hard to take, and I cannot see any light at the end of any of the tunnels- just confusion. The once solid path I was on has now turned into 50 different forks in the road, and I hate it. So, please, I am not asking anyone to kiss my butt and hold my hand through this whole thing... I'm just asking you to not be givin' off some weird vibes and hard attitudes and getting all squirrely on me.
It will probably take a while to get through this thread, I would like to go slow and resolve the questions that I have one at a time. There will probably be days where I don't post on this thread at all... I want to do this one thing at a time. Thanks ahead of time.
(sorry if I seemed kinda hard- that's the bad thing about the internet- you guys can't see my body language or hear the tone in my voice- I really didn't mean any of this in a rude or cocky way).

[dizzle]

La Rubia, you are beautiful, and I apologize for being such a lout and not getting with you sooner. I will make time and dedication to answer whatever questions you have. No debate, no getting squirrelly! Look forward to talking with you!

[yxboom]

If you read the forum guidelines to this section you will see that if you start causing trouble I will have to boot you DDW :whip:

[Rubia Warren]

Oh, yeah.... and no 20 page long answers either!! *cough* :kiss: (just kidding)

[yxboom]

No one will fully appreciate the victory of this rule :yipee:

2. The maximum post length is 12K characters. Please keep the points concise. Spanning posts as a work around this rule is forbidden and will only be given exemption to articles or content specific material that exceed the post limit. Responses to other's post are not exempt. Before such posts please note in the first post that it will span multiple posts otherwise you will be requested to remedy this or have it deleted.

[dizzle]

yxboom:
If you read the forum guidelines to this section you will see that if you start causing trouble I will have to boot you DDW :whip:

Sigh. You miss the days of "/kick DDW" do you?

And on the 12K rule, I confess. I fought him on that one. But he kept saying.

YxBoom - DDW
YxBoom - come on
YxBoom - DDW
YxBoom - come on
YxBoom - DDW
YxBoom - come on
YxBoom - DDW
YxBoom - come on
YxBoom - DDW
YxBoom - come on
YxBoom - DDW


Until he wore me down.

[Rubia Warren]

ROTFL :rofl:

[yxboom]

The transcript actually was:

YxBoom - DDW
DDW: - what
YxBoom - come on
DDW: - sigh
YxBoom - DDW
DDW: - what
YxBoom - come on
DDW: - sigh
YxBoom - DDW
DDW: - what
YxBoom - come on
DDW: - sigh
YxBoom - DDW
DDW: - what
YxBoom - come on
DDW: - sigh
YxBoom - DDW
DDW: - what
YxBoom - come on
DDW: - sigh
YxBoom - DDW


Until I wore you down. :)

[Rubia Warren]

The first question that I have is regarding how we are made in the image of God. We are body, spirit, and soul, right? How does that relate to being the image of God? Because of the triune nature, father, son, and holy ghost? Explain.

[dizzle]

Sure Rubia.. I will put together some thoughts on this over the weekend... and I hope you do not mind if in my answers, I take the liberty of putting forth a few ideas and points for you to ponder that I think may be relevant to the subject?

[yxboom]

IOW expect a 11,999 character post :hrm:

[Rubia Warren]

Okay, that's fine. And if I can make my question a little more clear, I'll post it. (I think I kind of asked a big question- maybe I could break it into just the little parts about it that I don't understand.) Oh, well. If I can think of a way that I can do that, I'll post it.

[Rubia Warren]

yxboom:
IOW expect a 11,999 character post :hrm:
See my last post*cough*:help:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

yxboom:
IOW expect a 11,999 character post :hrm:

Don't you mean several 11,999 character post :hrm:

[Solly]

Rubi

Just quickly on your question before i go home in ten minutes. There is not any consensus on whether the human being is two or three pieces: body and soul, or body soul and spirit. Or just one, a unity: which is my view, since the resurrection is not about guys in jammies on clouds, but real people on a real earth.

As far as the image and likeness of God is concerned in relation to the Trinity, that is not where it comes in: the analogy with the Trinity would not match up. Who is the body, who the soul, who the spirit?

This, briefly, from the New Dictionary of theology:

1. Man in his entirety is the viceroy of the earth. He is to be to the earth what Yahweh is to the entire universe. His life is to be a microcosm of the macrocosm of divine life.

2. As such man is the ‘son’ of the Great King (cf. Lk. 3:28). Man is made for filial fellowship with the divine and intended to express the family-likeness in righteousness, holiness and integrity.

3. All men and women (not only kings, or occasionally also priests) are thus created. The doctrine of the image of God is the foundation for human dignity and for the biblical ethic.

The likeness resides in the Who we are, not the What we are. Since, God being a Trinity of Persons, we are made by that God, then there is the likeness in that we are social beings, built for relationship, whether dominion over the "lower orders", or community with each other.

Have a good weekend. Remembering you in prayer.

[Rubia Warren]

"guys in jammies on clouds"??? ROTFL I will go over what you said about us being "one". I have never heard it that way- I just always assumed we were kinda 3 parts. *shrug* Maybe that was wrong. I'd like to look into it more.

[dizzle]

Solly that is exactly where I am going with this... my two cents later..

[phantaz sunlyk]

**8** say hey La Rubia. i'm glad that you're open for an honest discussion re the Trinity. for the past several years, i've been doing alllllllota research on this subject, so hopefully i'll be able to give you some answers.
ya asked--

The first question that I have is regarding how we are made in the image of God. We are body, spirit, and soul, right? How does that relate to being the image of God? Because of the triune nature, father, son, and holy ghost?

**7** there have been several explanations for the (a) sense in which humans are in the image of God.

when the Bible says that humans are in God's 'image and likeness', 'image' and 'likeness' were understood as referring to two distinct things. 'image' refered to our position vis-a-vis creation as being 'rational' and with what may be called 'an aesthetic appetite' (i.e., we appreciate goodness and truth and beauty, and we are drawn to these things); we are in a position of 'lordship' over creation as being such. after the fall, we still were in the 'image' of God.

'likeness' was understood as referring to our resplendance--what might be called our (inherent) essential beauty. something like crystal clean mirrors in which the beauty of the Sun (God) is clearly reflected. after we fell, the mirror got dirty and the Sun couldn't shine off of us (so to speak). hence we lost the 'likeness' of God.

now, when Christ came, people were understood as being restored to the 'likeness' of God via entrance into the Church (for example, see Jesus' prayer in Jn. 17--all of the talk of the Son being 'in us', and we 'in him', and he 'in the Father', etc., could be likened to the mirror being clean and God shining on it once more). it is by being 'in Christ'-thereby participating in the Divine life-that we are restored to being the 'likeness' of God.
jumping ahead, the point is this--to be in the 'likeness' of God is to be a being defined by an act of communion.

hence when God made 'man', it was only as male and female--persons in communion with each other and loving one another--that we are the image and likeness of God. how many persons doesn't matter (i'm not trying to draw a triadic analogy for the Trinity)--the point at which there is similarity between us and God is at the point of interpersonal communion. an analogy could be drawn, however, from man, woman, and child, provided one is well enough aquainted with Trinitarian conceptual lingo that they won't be led to imagine tritheism.

this is, for the most part, an Eastern analogy. Augustine, on the other hand, was the first to imagine each individual person by themselves as being an image of the Trinity. he begins with the concept of mind. the mind (Father) projects an image (Son) of itself, and is joined to the image by its Love (Spirit) for it. Augustine has several other analogies--each of them are fascinating.

the 'body, soul, spirit' analogy, however, is in my opinion certainly NOT a good analogy for the Trinity. it has, to my knowledge, no foundation in the history of the early Church, and it doesn't seem to help me understand the interpersonal relations between the Father, Son, and Spirit.

i think that a combination between Augustine and the East makes for a good understanding of the Trinity.

sorry for the length--peace in Christ.

by the way--is this the primary issue that has brought so much confusion to you?

[dizzle]

Dear Rubia:

Phantaz and Solly have brought up the points that I also would say. The well-intentioned analogy of soul-spirit-body for the Trinity that is often used by Trinitarians is misplaced. There is not a corresondence as Phantaz pointed out, which one would represent which? They also did a good job I think of explaing the basics of our being created in the image of God. I want to concentrate on one aspect that they brought up and that is the issue of community.

We as people are "personal" beings. That means we are created and found our fulfillment in interaction with others. If we did not have that interaction we would be incomplete. God has revealed Himself to us also as a personal Being who desires fellowship with us. The Bible also tells us that God is love. Thus these are two things that are simply part of who God is.

Now, this is very important, why did God create man? Did He need to create God as if He had some unfufilled needs that we would satsify? That would be unsatisfactory for God is self-suficient, He does not need us. But consider that if God is essentially personal and essentially love, then who did He fellowship with and have a loving relationship with before creatoin? If the answer is nothing, then we have a problem of unfulfilled "needs" in God. God would not be essentially self-sufficient.

I quote for you again my comment from a book review I did on Oneness theology...

Boyd also deals with the philosophy of a undifferentiated solitary eternal God and the difference that would make to revelation. If God is essen tially love, who did He love before creation? Did He need creation to have something to love? Is God essentially personal? How could he be essentially personal if His only fellowship prior to creation was with nothing? Is he only "revealing" Himself as intensely personal for our sakes? God is concealed yet again. Then the attributes of God revealed in Scripture are more about His "doing" rather than His "being." He is essentially a God of solitude... and we are created in His image. What does that say about us?

This point is really, really important. Please let me know if I need to explain it further. I have heard Phantaz expound upon this beautifully as well.

[Rubia Warren]

Phantaz-
No, this isn't what confuses me about the trinity (not the only thing, anyway). It has confused me since I was a little girl, and when oneness came along, it made way more sense to me. Now I don't know what to think, so I'm just trying to work it all out and figure out some things. I have always been told by trinitarians that we were made in the image of God, because we have body, soul, and spirit, and it has always confused me, leading to the question, "Well, who would be the body, and who would be the soul, and who would be the spirit?". Now that I have read what you posted, THAT makes perfect sense to me, that the scripture in Genesis would not be talking about body, soul, and spirit. Thanks for your response.

Dee Dee-
Before I ask any questions about what you posted, please explain it further. I feel an overwhelming desire to play Devil's advocate for a moment, but I want to wait to hear from you further. And by the way, just so you know up front- if I seem to argue at times it isn't because I am being stubborn... I just want to get any kind of doubt out of the way before moving on to the next questions. Bear with me, man! :argh:

[dizzle]

Sure Rubia....

God can have no unmet needs. He must be completely self-sufficient and complete. However, personal beings require personal interaction and community or there is an unfufilled need. Love requires and object. Now if God is an undifferentiated one (as in oneness theology) there is a problem.

One, He really is not essentially personal or love (which is in conflict with the Bible)

Or... He needed creation to have something to love and to interact with.

Neither alternative is acceptable. The Trinity solves this dilemna. There is an interpersonal loving relationship between the members of the Trinity.

[phantaz sunlyk]

**7** ya betcha La Rubia. i'll be checking up and seeing how the convo goes--interjecting from time to time--if y'all don't mind. helping people to understand the Trinity better is one of the things i love to do.
peace.

[Rubia Warren]

Dee Dee Warren:
Sure Rubia....

God can have no unmet needs. He must be completely self-sufficient and complete. However, personal beings require personal interaction and community or there is an unfufilled need. Love requires and object. Now if God is an undifferentiated one (as in oneness theology) there is a problem.

One, He really is not essentially personal or love (which is in conflict with the Bible)

Or... He needed creation to have something to love and to interact with.

Neither alternative is acceptable. The Trinity solves this dilemna. There is an interpersonal loving relationship between the members of the Trinity.
Don't think I am stupid- but I never thought of it that way, before. I mean, weren't angels created before the creation? Didn't He create man to have someone to worship Him- someone who could choose to? I don't believe that He NEEDS man...
But you just said that He can have no unmet needs.... then you said that love requires an object. I can see how man would have a need for interaction, etc. but if God has no unmet needs, and is indeed in fact, 3 in one, and they each love each other... then why the desire to create man?

Oh, wait. I think I see what you are saying- are you saying that He does have a need to love and be loved, which is taken care of within the 3 because they depend on each other, etc?
What bible scriptures make you come to these conclusions? If you don't have much time, you can just make a little list, and I can look them up later tonight or something.

[dizzle]

Dear Rubia:

Exactly! God did not "need" the creation, He simply chose to create.

Now as far as specific Bible verses, I must make it clear that this was primarily a philosophical argument not a proof text argument. What I mean is that I do not think anyone (or almost anyone) would dispute that God reveals Himself in the Bible as intensely personal. There is not "a" specific verse or verses for that, it is the way God is portrayed throughout. Also the Apostle John tells us that God IS Love (1 John 4:8). Love always requires an object or it is incomplete. A solitary unitarian concept of God cannot account for the fact that God is love in HIs essence because there was a time before there was an object of His love.

And yes the angels were created before man, but they are not eternal either. There was a time when there was no creation, and without the idea of an interpersonal loving relationship in the Being of God Himself, we are left with either unmet needs in God or a God that is not really essentially personal and essentially love.

[Rubia Warren]

Okay, I see what you are saying. You explained it well, it just hasn't sunk in all the way yet. Let me chew on this for a little while before I post again.

[phantaz sunlyk]

**7** Dee-Light, ha!, beauty-ful!!!
ya said--

Also the Apostle John tells us that God IS Love (1 John 4:8).

**8** yes! now, think of these verses also--
Jn. 1:1 "and the Word was with (pros = 'toward') God
Jn. 1:18 "it is the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, he has revealed him.
and what of the baptism/transfiguration epiphanies? "This is my Son, the Beloved, in him I am well pleased".
and so on.
say hey LA RUBIA, i have a pretty lengthy paper on line that returns to this subject again and again, and it is pretty decked out in Scripture. lemme know if ya want a link.

[phantaz sunlyk]

**8** yo Suga-Dee, if you're interested in getting deeper into the philisophical side of this issue, check out Michael Meerson's _The Trinity of Love in Modern Russian Theology_. heady, but its strawberry fields forever :thumb:
peace.

[dizzle]

Thanks Phantaz for the recommendation... I may just do that, you know that this particular portion of the philosophical aspects of the Trinity interest me very much.

[Jaltus]

There is one problem with the concept of God not needing creation because of the angels, namely the angels were created also. No matter how far you go back, there needs to be something for God to love (as stated above).

Good job so far, guys, though I disagree about body, soul, and spirit.

But that is neither here nor there.

[Xmansmommy]

Hey Rubes. Great thread sister! I am enjoying reading the questions and comments that have been posted. I too, don't fully understand the Trinity (and to be totally honest, no one does) especially when it comes to trying to define It. But I simply believe the passages that I believe teach it and try to understand it with logic as well, which I haven't accomplished yet. Having been taught a very confusing teaching regarding the "Godhead" this is an issue that could certainly use a little more clarification for me too sister. So again, thanks for starting the thread and thanks to all who have been participating.

Grace and peace,
Linda

[dizzle]

Hey Ruby... any more thoughts on this??

[Rubia Warren]

Nah... I'm givin' up on that one for now.
I'm thinking of which question I want to deal with next. As soon as I figure out which one, I'll post it.
And Phantaz, I would like to see what more you've written about "love", so please post your link.
Thanks, guys.

[dizzle]

Cool Rubia.....

[Fredster]

La Rubia,
You stated in your original post that you had questions about the triune nature of God. I could really find any mentioned. Could you give me a couple of question about the trinity that you are having trouble with?

Fredster

[phantaz sunlyk]

**7** say hey La Rubia. i haven't written a full paper exclusively on this theme, but i've written three online in which it is, in an obvious manner, incorporated into the whole of the argument. i'll go over them again and try and find the most relevant sections.
peace.

[Rubia Warren]

02-20-2003 @ 08:48 AM
Fredster:

La Rubia,
You stated in your original post that you had questions about the triune nature of God. I could really find any mentioned. Could you give me a couple of question about the trinity that you are having trouble with?

Fredster
Sure, Fredster. Just give me a little time. :smile:

Phantaz- cool. I'm looking forward to reading it.

[phantaz sunlyk]

**8** say hey La Rubia. i've just been asked to prepare a lecture for the confirmation canidates in my Church, hence my time here will be, at best, limited. however, if you have any questions or comments on the below, hopefully i'll be able to answer or respond to them. i hope the below provides you with some 'seeds for contemplation'.
http://tektonics.org/PS_NC.html
1)TESTIMONY OF SCRIPTURE: GOD AS FATHER (at the beginning).
2)SUMMARY: THE NICENE UNDERSTANDING OF ... (about 1/3 of the way down).
http://www.tektonics.org/holtb01.html
1)SOME HISTORIO-THEOLOGICAL PROLEGOMENA (near the beginning).
2)HOLT ON THE ORIGIN OF THE SON OF GOD (about 1/2 of the way down).
http://tektonics.org/PS_FS.html
1) (starting at "Now that I'm finished with Mr. Ed's yapstack ...", about 7/8 of the way down).
i know you don't like argument--please forgive the (sometimes intensely) rhetorical and sarcastic tone in the above essays--hopefully later i'll be able to replace them with something less polemical, focussing purely on a positive presentation.
anywho, peace in Christ.

[Rubia Warren]

Thank you for the links, phantaz... I am sorry, but I didn't see them until now!! I just skimmed over them for a while, and it brought up questions in me, but I will ask them later on, when I get to those topics, okay? Thank you, though... and hey.. is that you in your avatar? What a fabulous babe.
Now, back to the relationship between the persons of the trinity (I may have asked this earlier, I can't remember, so forgive me if I did), what scriptures lead trinitarians to believe that there is an interpersonal relationship between the three?

[dizzle]

Hey Rubia.. I will be coming to this.. but right off, first God is love and God is personal. A personal loving Being requires and object, so before creation who did God love? Did He need creation? Only the Trinity answers this conundrum. Thereis an interpersonal loving community within the Godhead.

[nomad]

yeah, it's not so much any particular scripture, as the concepts the way God has explained them.

imagine yourself all alone, with nothing and no one else there.

now, imagine yourself 'loving'. what would it mean?

nearly all definitions of loving involve some sort of relationship with another person or object (even the ones which would be a different word in the greek). loving is a transitive verb, it travels from the subject to the direct object.

so, now imagine God alone. and REALLY alone - nothing and no one else, before the angels, before creation. if He is love, who or what was that love in relation to? you could say he loved himself, but that isn't usually said about anyone in a positive way :)

that is sort of the basis of the argument.

[phantaz sunlyk]

**7** say hey La Rubia. wow, i thought this thread was way dead.

I just skimmed over them for a while, and it brought up questions in me, but I will ask them later on, when I get to those topics, okay?

**8** yah, i'm all here.

and hey.. is that you in your avatar?

**7** nah, that's my favorite musician Del Tha Funky Homosapien. he's kinda like a psychadelic type of rapper--none of that yappin' about guns and sleeping around and such. ya remember that song that went "I'm happy, Feeling glad/ I got sunshine, In a bag..."? he's the dude rapping in that song.

what scriptures lead trinitarians to believe that there is an interpersonal relationship between the three?

**8** start with Jn. 1:1 (the Word was with/toward God), and compare it to Jn. 1:18 (the Son, who dwells in the Father's heart). also, what the Father says to the Son in the baptism/transfiguration (this is my Son, the Beloved). also, the way Wisdom is described in relation to God in the OT (Prov. 8:30--"daily I was his delight, rejoicing before him always"; Wis 8-9--"she glorifies her noble birth by living with God, and the Lord of all loves her"), and so on.
i'll be here for ya questions, peace.

[themuzicman]

Rubia - I think the biggest problem that the oneness movement has (as I understand them) is something Jesus said:


John 5:

30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

...

37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.



Jesus calls the Father as a witness of who He is. In verse 31, He says that His own testimony isn't valid. But if He calls on the Father (whom oneness folks claim He is, if memory serves), then He is first bearing false witness by calling a witness whom He just said wasn't valid, and second is lying to the pharisees by claiming that there is someone else bearing witness of Him, when there is not.

The only conclusion we can draw is that there is one God, with at least two independent wills that can testify about each other.

Michael

[nomad]

yeah... without getting into a debate, john is the best book to investigate trinitarianism, for the reason that it tends to 'ride the middle' the best, with the clearest statements.

john is full of statements like 'my father gives them to me', 'i do what i see my father doing', etc, which definitely would read as they are separate. but then, john is also careful to put in lots of statements like 'i and my father are one', 'i am in my father, and my father is in me', etc. which imply (and outright say!) that they are one.

many have tried to swing towards one side or the other, either using the 'one' verses to try to invalidate the 'separate' verses ('oneness', 'unitarian' would be a better word but i think it has attached pantheistic connotations these days), or using the 'separate' verses to try to assert that we are worshipping more that one god (some jews say this about christianity, and this was one of the heresies the early church fought against).

but, the simplest explanation seems to be that they are _both_ true - jesus and his father are separate, yet jesus and his father are one. that is the basis of trinitarian (when you add in the holy spirit). imho of course.

i hope that tells you enough without begging an argument ;)

[Rubia Warren]

:ahem: Thank you for your input, you guys, but this thread I started on my questions about the trinity, not modalism, okay?:teeth: I know that you meant well, though, and I thank you both for your thoughts.

[phantaz sunlyk]

just to let y'all know, something came up, and i won't be posting here for i'm not sure how long.
peace

[Adamtoo]

Hello La Rubia:

May God bless you with peace and love forever! There is nothing wrong with being confused or not knowing the answer to everything. None of us will ever have all the answers, until we meet God face to face. Think about that for a minute. If that statement is true, then our salvation must not be dependent on knowing enough. Rather it is dependent on knowing Him, and that type of knowledge is about a relationship, a love-relationship. God is your Father, and the most important thing you could ever do is spend time with Him. Not religious time, just time. Take a walk, and hold His hand as you go. Talk to Him and listen for His voice. There is a reality there which cannot be proved or described. It can only be experienced. God just wants to be recognized. He wants some of your attentions. If you desire to spend time with Him, then when the end of time comes, who do you think He will want to be with? The people who never spent time with Him, or the people who chose to spend time with Him? Who would you want to spend an eternity with? Friends or people who could care less? God is about relationships, not doctrines, not correct knowledge, not proper affiliations. Think about your mother(I hope she was good to you). Does your relationship with her depend on knowing where she came from, etc? No, what makes your relationship with your mother special, is those times you spent together. Maybe it was good times, maybe it was times of deep struggle. But you went through them together. That is what matters, time spent together. When you die, you will most likely be concerned about your relationships. "I wish I had spent more time with so and so. I wish I had not been so mean to so and so. I wish I could say, 'I love you, one more time, to my mother." Do you see? Life is about relationships, not knowledge. Ever since Adam, we have been seeking new knowledge(thinking it would improve us), when the most important knowledge of all was right in front of us, a loving Father.

I feel a need to tell you something about myself. I grew up in the Church of Christ. They did not get into these deep questions. They only taught very strict doctrines. I learned little from them, even though there are many good people in that group. I had to struggle on my own, to come to the conclusions I now believe. I know nothing about trinitarians or oneness groups, or any other groups. I am not writing doctrine to you. I am writing about life. Jesus said, "Call no one on earth your teacher, you only have one real teacher." He was speaking of God, our Father. God wants to be your teacher, if you will let Him. The Bible is part of how He teaches us, but we must go deeper, if we are to learn from Him, personally. We must go beyond the words, to the thots behind the words, the reason the words were spoken and written. Words cannot adequately describe God. We must spend time with Him, getting to know Him.

I practice meditation. I think about God, and I contemplate the scriptures. It may not work for you, but it brings great nourishment to me. We each have to find the way that works for us. Seek and you will find. We call the Bible, the word of God, but I have learned that He has not stopped talking to His children. What kind of a Father would ever want to stop talking to His children? And we have the best of all Fathers. What I believe, I have learned from few if any people. Now, I have been influenced by several people, but the time I spend with my Father is the best time. I always learn something. I always feel nourished somehow, like when you suddenly come to understand a new thot, it just feels good. There is something nourishing there.

`Did you know that even Jesus was nourished, by God and by spending time with a very questionable woman? Read the story of the woman at the well. At one point, His disciples return from buying food, but Jesus says He is no longer hungry. He has already been nourished, because of time spent with this woman. But His Father was there, too. The fact is, the woman was nourished, the town was nourished, and Jesus was nourished. Only the disciples were standing around, wondering what in the world has happened.

I can only encourage you to spend time with God, personally. I hope no one hits me, but forget about all these doctrines and learn from the best source of all, your Father. He is speaking to you all the time. He is hugging you and telling you that He loves you very much. You can't find more important information than that, can you, than, you are loved? Jesus died to give you that message. It does not depend on your knowledge or your morals, because He still loves you. He is your Father.

Concerning confusion, I would not be too worried. That is a natural part of life. Sometimes it lasts a little while, and sometimes it lasts for many years, but it will pass if we keep turning our hearts to God. Every time we learn something new about God, He gets a little bigger, or at least it seems that way. Really, it's just that you are seeing more of Him. You are seeing more of the big picture. There will always be a few pieces of the puzzle missing. I don't think our mortal brains can even hold it all. But seeking after knowledge can actually keep you from spending time with your Father. Please don't feel bad about going through confusing times. Life is a process. There will never be a time when you think you know enough, but that's ok. It's about love. That's really the only thing we need to learn. How to love God, and how to love people.

Sometimes, life is like the seasons of nature. We go through a spring, a summer, a fall, and a winter. Sometimes, when we go through a winter, we feel dead but we are not. We just need to remember that soon the spring will come, and we will feel different. This is a natural part of life. It has ups and downs. If you will continue to turn your heart toward God, you will be rewarded. But He will only give you as much as you can handle, at that time. He is growing us up. He is maturing us. It is not about the destination as much as it is about taking Him with you, on the journey. That's where relationships are built, on the way.

Concerning the trinity, it seems ridiculous to me, that we think we can ever figure everything out. But if it really means something to you, He will surely try to explain it, over time. The word or concept of trinity is not mentioned in the Bible. It's just that people noticed that God revealed Himself 3 different ways. All 3 revelations are still the one same God. Jesus said, "If you knew me, you would know the Father". He also said, "the Father is a Spirit."Isn't it great that He tried to get through to us in more than one way? Over time, people formed these doctrines about the trinity, and I also have been intrigued about this subject. God is a 3-in-1. We were created in His image, and we are 3-in-1. Yet, God lives in us, so we are a trinity within a trinity. I believe Jesus was a trinity, because the Father was in Him as well as the Spirit, and He is the Son. So He was trinity, and at the very same time, He was part of a trinity. Confused yet? Me too! When God is living in us, we have the entire trinity of God inside of us, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Really it's just the fact that there is more than one side to each one of us. We and God are like a diamond. We have many facets. We have many ways to sparkle and catch someone's eye. We have many ways to express love toward God and others, so use them. Be creative, like God is.

Created in His image means many things. God has free will; so do we. God is very creative; so are we. God is very loving; we are meant to be. God is trying to raise up a family; so are we. God is a forgiving person; we can be too. God created us so He could have a deep loving relationship with us. I think that act, in itself, created a need in Him, for our love. It's just like when we have a baby; we can not love the baby, until it is created. Then we are full of love for our child, even though they cannot yet love us back, much. The list can go on forever, about how we are like God. Just remember, He is our Father, and it's natural to grow up to be like your Father. That is all Adam and Eve wanted, to be like God, but they took a shortcut. They thought knowledge would make them like their Father, but it only brought shame and guilt. What really makes us like our Father is spending time with Him, learning from Him, imitating Him, trying to love the unlovable like Him. Don't get bogged down in searching for knowledge. The knowledge Adam sought brought shame. The knowledge Jesus brought caused us to have a living relationship, with our Father. Do you remember when the Bible said, "Adam knew Eve, and a child was born?" That is the kind of knowledge God wants, intimate knowledge. And soon, a new child will be growing inside each one of us. Now, that's some powerful knowledge!

When the Bible speaks of becoming "one", it does not mean that we should all think alike, or look alike, or walk alike, or act alike. God created each one of us a little different, on purpose, and He does not make mistakes. Rather, it means we are different, yet we choose to have deep relationships with people we don't agree with. We become one, when we bond with others. Only love for one another, can make that happen. It's all about relationships. It's all about loving relationships. That is the essence of God. It is also the essence of mankind. It is the secret to real life.

[Ezraarah]

Sorry, you guys- I couldn't wait any longer.
In case you don't know, I believe in oneness... not completely and wholeheartedly, but more so than the trinity.
In case you didn't notice, I put this thread in the liberal arts section for a reason... I am not looking for a debate. I will say it again: I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE.
I have questions about the possiblity that God MAY be triune, many of which are philisophical, and some that are scriptural, and I am hoping that someone(s) with patience can answer them.
I also would like to ask that you please not give me any negative information regarding the history of oneness pentecostals, the UPCI, any "Jesus- name only" organization, cults, or any beliefs that often go along with oneness, or any other negative vibe that you wanna be givin'- I know exactly where the Apologetic websites are located, and have read them numerous times- there's not much new that you will be able to tell me. I just want this thread to be about answers to my questions about the trinity- I also want to discuss salvation and orthodoxy as little as possible, if it can be helped... as I said: IF it can be helped.
I am going through some really huge big time stuff right now...the firm foundation of many things that I thought were given to me directly from God and not man (not necessarily regarding the "trinity", but other things mostly) have now been turned into a massive ball of confusion and I have no solid foundation anymore. It is getting really hard to take, and I cannot see any light at the end of any of the tunnels- just confusion. The once solid path I was on has now turned into 50 different forks in the road, and I hate it. So, please, I am not asking anyone to kiss my butt and hold my hand through this whole thing... I'm just asking you to not be givin' off some weird vibes and hard attitudes and getting all squirrely on me.
It will probably take a while to get through this thread, I would like to go slow and resolve the questions that I have one at a time. There will probably be days where I don't post on this thread at all... I want to do this one thing at a time. Thanks ahead of time.
(sorry if I seemed kinda hard- that's the bad thing about the internet- you guys can't see my body language or hear the tone in my voice- I really didn't mean any of this in a rude or cocky way).
If you ask any Christian who are these Verse pertaining to they would Answer
( WithOut A Doubt In Their Minds ) . that these Verse are Speaking of The Messiah Yashua , Also Take A LQQk At The Many Titles Which Are Attributed To Him . < Biblical Names Attributed To The Messiah Yashua >
The seed of woman < Genesis 3 ; 15 > The caption of Savation < Job 5 ; 13 - 14 > Wonderful < Isaiah 9 ; 6 ; Judge 13 ; 8 > I am that I am < Ex odus 3 ; 14 > The mighty God < Isaiah 9 ; 6 > Emmanuel < Isaiah 7; 14 > The Rose of Sharon lilly of the valley < Song of Solomon 2 ; 1 > Theprince of pace < Isaiah 9- 6 > The Mediator < 1Timothy 2 ; 5 > The helper < Hebrew 13 ; 6> The Rewarder of Faith < Hebrew11 ; 6 > The Branch < Zachariah 6 ; 12 > A Man of sorrows < Isaiah 53 ; 3 > The Bringer of Good Tidings < Isaiah 41 ; 27 > The Chief Cornerstone < Isaiah 28 ; 16 > The Redeemer < Job 19 ; 25 >
This is only a small list of the different names that are Attributed to The Messiah Yashua Without Even His Name Being Mentioned . I Repeat The Name '' Yashua / Jesus '' IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THESE VERSE . HowEver , You Have Christian Will Undoubtedly Tell You That These Verse Are In Fact Speaking About The Messiah Yashua < NOT >
I Again Repeat The Name '' Yashua / Jesus '' IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THESE VERSE .. OverStand SomeThing Ok I Deal Only In Facts Ok
Ans. There is a distinction made between the father , And the son John 5 ; 19 ''Then Answered Jesus And Said Unto Them , Verity , Verily , I Say Unto You The Son ( Hwee - Os ) . Can Do Nothing Of Himself , But What He Seeth The Father ( Pat - Ayr ) Notice Greek Word For Son is Spell ( Hwee - Os )
Bible - New Testament , 2John 1 - 3 ( With Greek Insert ) states , Grace be with you , mercy , and peace , from God the Father , and from the Lord Jesus Christ , theSon of the Father , in truth and love , '' .... Then when you go to 1John 4 ;14 - New Testament ( With Greek Insert ) A Letter To His Girl Friend Cyria , You Read ;... And We Have Seen And Do Testify That The Father Sent The Son To Be The Saviour Of The World '' And In 1John 2 ; 22 - New Testament ( With Greek Insert ) You Read , '' Who Is A Liar But He That Denieth That Jesus Is The Christ ? He Is Antichrist , That Denieth The Father And The Son '' These quotes above aremaking it clear that Jesus and God are not the same being or person , NoMore Then You And Your Father Are TheSame Person . LQQking at these quotes from Your King James Version of the Bible , Jesus could not have possibly been The Son And The Father . He has to be Either one or the other , And it is very clear which one is The Son That's All Just like all of Us are Children Of God ( John 10 ; 34 - 36 ) . So now as far as when They say in The Greek Translation John 1 ; 1 - New Testament ( With Greek Insert ) , It States ... '' In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God and the Word was God , <> They are really saying '' In The Beginning Their Was An Oath And That Oath Was The Word , ;....The Greek Word For In Is
'' En '' Which is also The Sumerian Word '' En '' or An '' Name Of The Highest And It Denotes A Position '' In Place , Time Or States Thus God Must Have Been At A Specific Place , At A Specific Time '' In The Beginning '' And Was God The Word ( Logos ) or Was The World ( Logos ) With God . Because It Couldn't Be With God And Be God . < Statement In Itself Would Contradict Itself ; The Word In Greek Log -Os Was A '' Speech , Saying , Decree '' From the Root Word Leg - O meaning '' Say , Speak '' Which In Hebrew would be Daw - Bar '' Word , Saying , Speech , Utterance '' Genesis 15 ; 1 , 4 , And The Greek Word Used For Beginning Is Ar - Khay Meaning '' Chief ( Order , Time , Place , Or Rank ) ;....Beginning , Corner ( At The , The ) First ( Estate ) Magistrate . Power , Principality . Principle , Rule ''
American Heritage Dictionary Defines Arch . As ;
Chief , Principal . From Middle English . Arche From , Old English , Arce , Erce , From Latin , Archi - Arch - , Fr Greek Arci . Are , Meaning '' Leader , Chief Ruler ' From The Stem Of Arceiv , To Begin , Rule '
In Serveral Quotes In The New Testament Jesus Made It Clear That You Are To Worship God And Not Him When He Made Reference To God He Used The Third Person Singular '' Him '' Not The First Person Singular Me In Luke 4; 8 Jesus Says And I Quote He Said Worship Him Not Me
In John 4 ; 23 - 24 Jesus States Againt In The Red Letter Writting Of Your Bible And I Quote He Said Worship Him And Not Me .
And In John 14 ; 10 Jesus Gives All Praise And Gratitude To His Heavenly Father And I Quote He Used The Word He Not Me
The ( Trinity ) Is Of ( Pagan ) Origion And Every ( Pholytheistic ) Culture Has Their Own Reprentation Of It ... Common Sense Should Tell You That Three Person Yet One God Theory Is Impossible ..
( 1 ) Plus ( 1) Plus 1
God The Father God The Son God The Holy Ghost
Three Cannot Go Into One , With Yashu'a Was God How Could He Forsaken Himself (Matthew 27 ; 46 ... Mark 15; 34 ) And If He Was God Who Was He Calling Out To Himself ? I Thought God So Loved The World , That He Sent His Son To Die For You .. If That's True As John 3; 16 Says , Then Jesus Had Nothing To Do With It It Was That Father That Sent Him . In Matthew 6 ; 9 As Jesus Say '' Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' Because Jesus Say In John 13 ; 16 '' I Am Not Greater Than He Who Sent Me '' And In John 5; 30 He Says Again That '' I On My Own Accord Can Do Nothing '' Call No Man Father , Because There Is One Father Who Art In Heaven And Jesus Says Clearly In Matthew 23; 9 '' And Call No Man Your Father Upon The Earth
Truth Is Truth And If It Was About His Father's Will Then Why Did Jesus SAy In Matthew 26; 38 >> If Be Possible Let This Cup Pass By Me ; Nevertheless Not As I Will , But As Thou Wilt ''
Let Me Point Out A Few Points From Your Bible Stating That Jesus Couldn't Possibly Be God ..
Mark 15 ; 34 >> Jesus cried out with a loud voice My God , My God Why have thou Forsaken Me . <<< If Jesus was God who could he be praying to if he is the only God , and to cry is a human Weakness .
Mathew 4; 1 >>Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil << If Jesus was God how could the devil Possibly be able to tempt him without him knowing >> And What Could The Devil Possibly Offer The Creator Of Everything .
Luke 14 ; 26 >> If anyman come to me , and hate not his Father And Mother And Wife And Chrildren And Brethren And Sister , Yea And His Own Life Also , He Cannot Be My Disciple . <<< If Jesus was God and he so loved the world why would you have to hate your family And even yourself , when it say in Leviticus 19 ; 1 That Hatred Is A Sin
John 14 ; 2 >> In My Father House Are Many Mansions .>>> Jesus Said In My Father's House , He [ Didsn't Say In My House ] Would It Have Made Sense To Say In My House [ If He Was God ? ]
Luke 2; 49 >> That I Must Be About My Father's Business '>> If Jesus Was God Why Did He Say I Must Be Of My Fathers Business , He Indicated . [ The Distinction Between Him And His Father .
I'm Should You Can Find More If You Open Your Eyes , Thoughout Your Bible It Speak About Jesus Being The Son Of God , And Not God Himself
What Other Proof Do I Have That Jesus And The Father Are Two Separate Beings ..?
Was Only A Man >> Matthew 1 ; 25 ...... Was Baptized >>>> Matthew 3; 13
Was Tempted >>>> Matthew 4; 1 ...... Slept >>>> Matthew 8 ; 24
Ate >>> Luke 24 ; 42 ...... Hungered >>>> Matthew 21 ; 18
Weakened >>> John 4; 6 .... Said Something He Shouldn't Have John 20; 17
Cried At Lazarus Grave >> John 20; 17
What Is A Trinity ?
The Word For Trinity In Aramic / Hebrew Is Shelesh , And ;; Triad '' It Is Mentioned Only In 1Chronicles 7; 35 And Thalaathatin In Ashuric / Syriac / Arabic Found In The Koran 4 ; 171 , 5;73 And Means ; Trinity , Triad , Triple , The Greek Word For Trinity Is Triad ( 1John 5 ; 7 ) . Triad Simply Means Tri Which Means Three ( 3 ) . When You Take Any Three Things And Say They Make Up Any One Thing That Would Be A Trinty , There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .
The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Is Not Alive And The Father Is God Not The Son .. The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Accodring To The Christian Teaching Die At The Age Of 33 , By Saying That He Is '' Alive Again '' Mean God Died Before ????? !!!!!! < Mrs. Nancy > Smileing >> That Make Absolutely No Sense . You Stated Now That He Is Alive Again Forever He Is God . So What You're Saying Is That God Died And Came Back To Life , And At Some Point He Stopped Being God God Is All Existing . And Made It Possible For All Things To Exist . If He '' Dies '' What Do You Think Would Happen To The Rest Of Us . Exactly . We Would All Cease To Exist As Well Because We Are All Apart Of The Heavenly Father . Also , If The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Is God The Who Was He Praying To In Matthew 6 ; 9 - 13 He Says Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' , So He's Not God Or Otherwise He Would've Been Praying To Himself . Let Me Point Out To You That The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Was And Israelite . It Is Common Sense That The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Would Not Violate Such A Powerful Israelite Judaic Command As The Worship Of God Alone ( Exodus 20; 3 - 4 ) By Claiming To Be That Very God Whom He Pray To In Matthew 26 ; 39 .
'' AND HE WENT A LITTLE FARTHER
AND FELL ON HIS FACE AND PRAYED
( SAYING , O FATHER MY FATHER )
Think About It . It Doesn't Make Much Sense For Jesus To Pray To Himself . If Jesus Was God , He Wouldn't Have No Need To PRAY . In Several Quotes In The New Tesament The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Made It Clear That Your Are To Worship God AndNot Him . When He Made Reference To God , He Used The THIRD Person Singular '' Him '' Not The First Person Singular '' Me '' In Luke 4 ; 8 JesusSaysAnd I Quote ;
AND JESUS ANSWER AND SAID
UNTO HIM GET THEE BEHIND ME
SATAN ; FOR IT IS WRITTEN , THOU
SHALT WORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD
AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE ''
He Said Worship Him Not Me
In John 4 ; 23 - 24 Jesus States Again In The Red Letter Writting Of Your Bible And I Quote
'' BUT THE HOUR COMETH AND NOW IS WHEN THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH ; FOR THE FATHER SEEKETH SUCH TO WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH . < He Said Worship Him And Not Me .
And In John 14 ; 10 JesusGive All Praise AndGratitude To His Heavenlt Father And I Quote ;
BELIEVEST THOU NOT THAT I AM IN
THE FATHER , AND THE FATHER IN ME ?
THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I
SPEAK NOT OF MYSELF ; BUT THE FATHER
THAT DWELLETH IN ME , HEDOETH THE WORKS
He Used The Word He Not Me
No Man's Body Can Contain God , Not If You Mean That He Has The Essence Of His Father In Him , Then All Man Are God's Son And Daughter , Read Genesis 2 ;7 When God Breathe Into Man The Breath Of Life '' And The Lord God Formed Man From The Dust Of The Ground , And Breathed Into His Nostrils The Breath Of Life ; And Man Became A Living Soul . .. However , Getting Back To The Point Whether He Incarnated Or Came Himself There Still Wouldn't Be Any Need For Him To Pray Or Ask For Assistance From Anyone If He Was God , The Creator . Can't You See That ?Not Only Would He Not Need To Pray He Would Have No Desire To Eat Meat
Luke 24 ; 41 , Beg That Death Passes Him Matthew 26 ; 39 , Feared AndRan For His Life John 18 ; 3 Which Means That '' God Has To Run From His Creation . It Seems Like You Totally Ignored All Of These Scriptures And Found One That Sound Good To You , And Built A Whole Doctrine From It . Another Quality That The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Did Not Possess According To Roman 13 ; 1 And
2Corinthians 1 ; 23 Is The Power To Assign The Soul Their Positions In The Hereafter According To The Author Of These 2 Books Which Was Paul . Only The Heavenly Father Possess Such Power . Exalting Jesus Beyond The Truth Is Shown To Be A Form Of Idolatry . Once Again In Matthew 7 ; 21 Jesus Tells People To Do The Will Of The Father . ... In Both Luke 4 ; 8 And Mathew 4; 10 We Come Across An Incident That Clearly Contradicts The Concept Of Jesus Claining Absolute Divinity . According To These Two References Matthew 27 ; 46 And Mark 15 ;34 Jesus Was Put On The Cross Left To Die . Then According To Those Who Believe The Crucifixion Story , At That Time Jesus Cried In A Loud Voice . If Jesus Was God He Would Not Have To Say Any Of These Things In The First Place . How Could You Possibly Forsake Your Ownself ? If HeWas God Or Eli As It Is Used In This Quote , He Would Not Need Consent From Anyone . Overstand ... This Could Not Possibly Be The Words Of A person Who Saw Himself As The The Controller Of All Life And Death Because He Cried Out '' My God '' It Simply Isn't Logical . The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Never Encouraged Anyone To Worship Him Instead , He Taught Others To Worship His Father .. As I Have Just Shown You By Useing The Scripture .

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