Maccabees and the war against the west

[furay]

Lord have mercy, but sometimes I see a parallel between the Jews who faithfully beat back the idolatrous Greeks and the Muslims who are fighting against western "values" infiltrating their way of life. Obviously the Maccabees had the Lord on their side and the Muslims do not (for they do not worship the True God) but sometimes I can't help but feel their cause is "noble"
when I remember all of the atrocities commited in our western society (abortion being numero uno) and just how far the US really is from historic christianity. Thoughts? Am I an unpatriotic, traitorous scoundrel for even contemplating this?

[David_A_Reed]

Good question! They might fall into a category similar to those of whom Paul wrote, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." - Romans 10:2

Likewise, God cared more about the pagan inhabitants of Nineveh than self-centered and pouting Jonah did, because God told Jonah, "And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" - Jonah 4:11

Should self-centered lukewarm "Christians" look down smugly at zealous Muslims? Recall that Jesus said, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." - Luke 12:47-48

So, who can say that the Lord does not appreciate sincerity and zeal on the part of a Muslim who is trying to worship the God of Abraham, although grossly misled?

I humbly recall the days when I went door-to-door peddling Watchtower magazines for an organization that usurped Jesus' rightful place as my Lord and Master, and I rejoice at His mercy toward me since those days of error.

David

[Cynic Sage]

Lord have mercy, but sometimes I see a parallel between the Jews who faithfully beat back the idolatrous Greeks and the Muslims who are fighting against western "values" infiltrating their way of life. Obviously the Maccabees had the Lord on their side and the Muslims do not (for they do not worship the True God) but sometimes I can't help but feel their cause is "noble"
when I remember all of the atrocities commited in our western society (abortion being numero uno) and just how far the US really is from historic christianity. Thoughts? Am I an unpatriotic, traitorous scoundrel for even contemplating this?

Although I understand them not wanting McCultureTM shoved down their troats. But I don't sympathize with people who blow up buses of innocents.

If only all that zeal dedication could be chanelled into something productive.

[furay]

Good post, David, thank you.

Johnny: I don't condone their methods... when I watch the nightly news sometimes I just have to stop and cry at the horror being unleashed. But when I was thinking of this topic I had in mind Bin Laden's (?) group (mujahadeen? Whatever they're called) who kicked the godless Soviets out of Afghanistan via their Guerilla warfare. The similarities with the way the Maccabees operated struck me.

Then his son Judas, who was called Maccabeus, took his place.
2 All his brothers and all who had joined his father supported him, and they carried on Israel's war joyfully.
3 He spread abroad the glory of his people, and put on his breastplate like a giant. He armed himself with weapons of war; he planned battles and protected the camp with his sword.
4 In his actions he was like a lion, like a young lion roaring for prey.
5 He pursued the wicked, hunting them out, and those who troubled his people he destroyed by fire.
6 The lawbreakers were cowed by fear of him, and all evildoers were dismayed. By his hand redemption was happily achieved,
7 and he afflicted many kings; He made Jacob glad by his deeds, and his memory is blessed forever.
8 He went about the cities of Judah destroying the impious there. He turned away wrath from Israel
9 and was renowned to the ends of the earth; he gathered together those who were perishing.
10 Then Apollonius gathered the Gentiles, together with a large army from Samaria, to fight against Israel.
11 When Judas learned of it, he went out to meet him and defeated and killed him. Many fell wounded, and the rest fled.
12 Their possessions were seized and the sword of Apollonius was taken by Judas, who fought with it the rest of his life.
13 But Seron, commander of the Syrian army, heard that Judas had gathered many about him, an assembly of faithful men ready for war.
14 So he said, "I will make a name for myself and win glory in the kingdom by defeating Judas and his followers, who have despised the king's command."
15 And again a large company of renegades advanced with him to help him take revenge on the Israelites.
16 When he reached the ascent of Beth-horon, Judas went out to meet him with a few men.
17 But when they saw the army coming against them, they said to Judas: "How can we, few as we are, fight such a mighty host as this? Besides, we are weak today from fasting."
18 But Judas said: "It is easy for many to be overcome by a few; in the sight of Heaven there is no difference between deliverance by many or by few;
19 for victory in war does not depend upon the size of the army, but on strength that comes from Heaven.
20 With great presumption and lawlessness they come against us to destroy us and our wives and children and to despoil us;
21 but we are fighting for our lives and our laws.
22 He himself will crush them before us; so do not be afraid of them."
23 When he finished speaking, he rushed suddenly upon Seron and his army, who were crushed before him.
24 He pursued Seron down the descent of Beth-horon into the plain. About eight hundred of their men fell, and the rest fled to the country of the Philistines.
25 Then Judas and his brothers began to be feared, and dread fell upon the Gentiles about them.
26 His fame reached the king, and all the Gentiles talked about the battles of Judas.

1 Maccabees also describes how they would mount these mini campaigns and then run off into the mountains after defeating the enemy.

[Oldmonk]

Good post, David, thank you.

Johnny: I don't condone their methods... when I watch the nightly news sometimes I just have to stop and cry at the horror being unleashed. But when I was thinking of this topic I had in mind Bin Laden's (?) group (mujahadeen? Whatever they're called) who kicked the godless Soviets out of Afghanistan via their Guerilla warfare. The similarities with the way the Maccabees operated struck me.

Then his son Judas, who was called Maccabeus, took his place.
2 All his brothers and all who had joined his father supported him, and they carried on Israel's war joyfully.
3 He spread abroad the glory of his people, and put on his breastplate like a giant. He armed himself with weapons of war; he planned battles and protected the camp with his sword.
4 In his actions he was like a lion, like a young lion roaring for prey.
5 He pursued the wicked, hunting them out, and those who troubled his people he destroyed by fire.
6 The lawbreakers were cowed by fear of him, and all evildoers were dismayed. By his hand redemption was happily achieved,
7 and he afflicted many kings; He made Jacob glad by his deeds, and his memory is blessed forever.
8 He went about the cities of Judah destroying the impious there. He turned away wrath from Israel
9 and was renowned to the ends of the earth; he gathered together those who were perishing.
10 Then Apollonius gathered the Gentiles, together with a large army from Samaria, to fight against Israel.
11 When Judas learned of it, he went out to meet him and defeated and killed him. Many fell wounded, and the rest fled.
12 Their possessions were seized and the sword of Apollonius was taken by Judas, who fought with it the rest of his life.
13 But Seron, commander of the Syrian army, heard that Judas had gathered many about him, an assembly of faithful men ready for war.
14 So he said, "I will make a name for myself and win glory in the kingdom by defeating Judas and his followers, who have despised the king's command."
15 And again a large company of renegades advanced with him to help him take revenge on the Israelites.
16 When he reached the ascent of Beth-horon, Judas went out to meet him with a few men.
17 But when they saw the army coming against them, they said to Judas: "How can we, few as we are, fight such a mighty host as this? Besides, we are weak today from fasting."
18 But Judas said: "It is easy for many to be overcome by a few; in the sight of Heaven there is no difference between deliverance by many or by few;
19 for victory in war does not depend upon the size of the army, but on strength that comes from Heaven.
20 With great presumption and lawlessness they come against us to destroy us and our wives and children and to despoil us;
21 but we are fighting for our lives and our laws.
22 He himself will crush them before us; so do not be afraid of them."
23 When he finished speaking, he rushed suddenly upon Seron and his army, who were crushed before him.
24 He pursued Seron down the descent of Beth-horon into the plain. About eight hundred of their men fell, and the rest fled to the country of the Philistines.
25 Then Judas and his brothers began to be feared, and dread fell upon the Gentiles about them.
26 His fame reached the king, and all the Gentiles talked about the battles of Judas.

1 Maccabees also describes how they would mount these mini campaigns and then run off into the mountains after defeating the enemy.




GOOD points. I agonize over many horrors this world has seen from the time the "Prince of Peace" left us. I do recognize though there is only so much we can do . There is a time to say I have done what I can with what I have..others may be able to do more . Many Pastors burn out because they feel they have to do it all themselves.
I see and agree with your parallel to the book of Macabees. I am just wopndering, and it hurts this somewhat Zionistic heart to say, that Israel has forgotten their slavery in Egypt and have in some respects treated the Palistineans as they were treated in Egypt. There must be some sort of compromise but it seems that in some respects the Palistineans are as guilty as Israel and may be their own worst enemy.

[furay]

GOOD points. I agonize over many horrors this world has seen from the time the "Prince of Peace" left us.
The Prince of Peace has never left us. He may have returned to Heaven, but lo, He is with us always even to the end of all ages. :smile:

I do recognize though there is only so much we can do . There is a time to say I have done what I can with what I have..others may be able to do more . Many Pastors burn out because they feel they have to do it all themselves. I see and agree with your parallel to the book of Macabees.
Thank you for your insight.

I am just wopndering, and it hurts this somewhat Zionistic heart to say, that Israel has forgotten their slavery in Egypt and have in some respects treated the Palistineans as they were treated in Egypt. There must be some sort of compromise but it seems that in some respects the Palistineans are as guilty as Israel and may be their own worst enemy.
Yes, the whole situation in Palestine/Israel is a shame. :frown:

[David_A_Reed]

Individuals can choose their roles and their politics, but the remaining plays in this game are already scripted, as well as the outcome:

"Jerusalem will be a heavy stone burdening the world…all the nations of the earth unite in an attempt…"
— Zechariah 12:3 The Living Bible Catholic edition

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

"For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

"And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

"Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

"Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about:

"thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

"The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation."

--from Joel chapter 2 and 3

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. ...and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."
--Revelation 19:11-19 KJV

David

[Oldmonk]

The Prince of Peace has never left us. He may have returned to Heaven, but lo, He is with us always even to the end of all ages. :smile:


Thank you for your insight.


Yes, the whole situation in Palestine/Israel is a shame. :frown:


You are right there ...the Prince of Peace is here as long as we christians are here...and HE lets until he that letteth is taken out of the way.

[furay]

"Jerusalem will be a heavy stone burdening the world…all the nations of the earth unite in an attempt…"
— Zechariah 12:3 The Living Bible Catholic edition

Wow, they made a Catholic edition of the Living Bible? I used to have a Rainbow Study Bible with the LB as the text - it was atrocious. One of the worst "translations" I have ever read. I gave it away. :lol:

The Rainbow Study feature was pretty useful, though...

[Oldmonk]

Wow, they made a Catholic edition of the Living Bible? I used to have a Rainbow Study Bible with the LB as the text - it was atrocious. One of the worst "translations" I have ever read. I gave it away. :lol:

The Rainbow Study feature was pretty useful, though...


I do not like very many Bibles of the "Dynamic Equivalance" variety ( The LB and TEV being a couple of those using this method) for a couple of really good reasons. Word order many times has implications as strong as what is said!! "Now John " doesn't really mean the same as "John , now" { May be a poor example but I think you guys know what I mean} All of this is lost in the kernnal process of dynamic eqiv.
The second reason is related... Whenever you make a translation it is best if you make it as exact and to the point. Wordiness only adds to the chance of error creeping into the translation and may cloud the very point the text is trying to make. Translation is a task that will never be popular to ALL but the closer we stick to the text ( especially one that we believe to be divinely inspired) the better.

[furay]

Well said. I agree fully.