God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus

[Christian2]

That's a pretty catchy title, isn't it?

I've been having a little conversation with a Muslim about some ayas in the Qur'an:

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

According to the Muslims these ayas are correcting the Christians and pointing out that God did not have sex with Mary in order to produce Jesus. In other words, Allah believes that this is what the Christians believe.

I told this fellow that Christians do not believe that and never did so the ayas are condemning a Christian belief that never was.

Here is my question: Was there every a time in the history of Christianity when Christians did believe that Jesus was produced by God and Mary through sex? What did the first Christians believe? It seems to me that since the first followers were Jews, that they would have been horrified at such a suggestion.

It sounds like a pretty dumb question to me, but I honestly don't know. To make matters worse, my younger brother thinks that "begotten" in the Bible means sex: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son....", so I should extend my question to include any "Christians" today who have that misconception.

Thank you.

[spl_cadet]

Given that one of the most ancient titles for Mary is "ever-virgin", seems just a tad bit hard for her and the Father to have gotten it on.

[Chrysostom]

It seems to me that since the first followers were Jews, that they would have been horrified at such a suggestion.
Yes, they would have been, which is why Joseph was told it was okay for him to go ahead and marry Mary, even though she was pregnant with Jesus - she was still a virgin.

Here's some more information (http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTARO16.htm).

[magus]

I don't know that 'ever-virgin' is necessarily true - it would have been awfully hard on Joseph to marry a wife yet not ever being able to share conjugal relations with her.

But yes, Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus' conception and probably up to a certain point after His birth. It is obvious from Luke that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. The Nicene Creed goes "... born of the Virgin Mary, and became man." I would say that Christians or Messianic Jews NEVER believed God had sex with Mary (God is spirit, after all). It also goes back to Isaiah's prophecy as well (you can argue almah vs bethulah all you want, the point is still clear).

Magus

[dizzle]

Interesting point Christian2 - it seems to me, tell me if I am wrong, you are making the point of the fallibility of Allah if he couldn't even know what Christians (as a whole) believed. I am sure there were a few nuts throughout the centuries that may have believed that God and Mary had sex - heck there are some in recent history (cough - Early Mormons) - but that has never been the mainstream belief of Christianity.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Interesting point Christian2 - it seems to me, tell me if I am wrong, you are making the point of the fallibility of Allah if he couldn't even know what Christians (as a whole) believed. I am sure there were a few nuts throughout the centuries that may have believed that God and Mary had sex - heck there are some in recent history (cough - Early Mormons) - but that has never been the mainstream belief of Christianity.

Hasn't Allah already made a mistake by saying that the Trinity is Father, Mary, and Jesus?

[spl_cadet]

I don't know that 'ever-virgin' is necessarily true - it would have been awfully hard on Joseph to marry a wife yet not ever being able to share conjugal relations with her.


He's generally thought to have been pretty old by the time he married her, mainly just to help her out.

[Christian2]

Interesting point Christian2 - it seems to me, tell me if I am wrong, you are making the point of the fallibility of Allah if he couldn't even know what Christians (as a whole) believed. I am sure there were a few nuts throughout the centuries that may have believed that God and Mary had sex - heck there are some in recent history (cough - Early Mormons) - but that has never been the mainstream belief of Christianity.

Yes, Dee Dee, that is what I am saying. Allah should have known what Christians believed. I mentioned these verses and one other to another Muslim--the Qur'anic verse that says, "How can Allah have a son when he has no consort (wife)?" This is what he said:

******

The verses of Qur'aan are placing an argument. They are challenging the Christians and asking them why would God take a son, why would God need a son for and why should God have one? And then the question 'How can God have a son when God has no Consort?' Because Christians are using an earthly term and for God that term of a son is not valid, in whatever sense that may be. The term 'son' befits only to men and women, that is to humans.

If God can beget a son, why cannot God beget a daughter? I am putting this question to you, neither the Qur'aan nor Islam. The question put forward is why should God have a son when God is not a human. The earthly terms of relationships are not meant to be applicable to God.

If all of us are Children of God, it does not mean that God begat us all.

******

His explanation does not work for me. Allah is objecting to a term? "begotten"? He is objecting to a Greek word--monogenes--a word that most say means "unique" or "one of a kind"?

The problem as has been explained to me is that Allah denies that he has any son -- literally or figuratively -- it is beyond Allah's majesty to have any son. What about Psalm 2:7 where God says to David, "You are my son, today I have begotten you"? YHVH calls His angels "sons" -- "sons and daughters" in the OT.

If Allah claims that he does not have sons in anyway can Allah be YHVH who claims that He does have sons?

This is a commentary about begotten that I got from the Internet--a source that explains what the ayas mean which was recommended to me by a Muslim:

******

(And they say: "The Most Gracious has begotten a son.'' Indeed you have brought forth a terribly evil thing. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to the Most Gracious. But it is not suitable for the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Gracious as a servant. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting. And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection.) (19:88-95) Then Allah warned the liars that fabricated the claim that He has begotten a son. He warned that they will not succeed, never prospering in this world or in the Hereafter. In this world Allah will lead them, step-by-step, to their ruin. He will give them respite and put up with them for a while. He will allow them to have little enjoyment,

******
If the above commentary does not mean that Christians say that Allah has begotten a son by sex then what does it mean? It cannot mean begetting a son in the figurative sense because it says: "Indeed you have brought forth a terribly evil thing." It is not terribly evil for Allah to have a son in the figurative sense. Adam could be called a son of Allah in the figurative sense and so could Jesus.

I couldn't find any sect in early Christianity that believed such a thing. As someone pointed out, if God had sex with Mary, Jesus would not have been born of a virgin.

I think this "begotten" subject is a huge mistake in the Qur'an--right up there with Jesus didn't die on the cross.

[Roy]

I don't know that 'ever-virgin' is necessarily true - it would have been awfully hard on Joseph to marry a wife yet not ever being able to share conjugal relations with her.He's generally thought to have been pretty old by the time he married her, mainly just to help her out.

Explain Mark 3:31 then.

Roy

[One Bad Pig]

The reason that Islamic interpretations of Christian (and Jewish) beliefs are a bit off is because the Christians and Jews Muhammed interacted with tended to be rather unorthodox.

[kemi]

That's a pretty catchy title, isn't it?

I've been having a little conversation with a Muslim about some ayas in the Qur'an:

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

According to the Muslims these ayas are correcting the Christians and pointing out that God did not have sex with Mary in order to produce Jesus. In other words, Allah believes that this is what the Christians believe.

I told this fellow that Christians do not believe that and never did so the ayas are condemning a Christian belief that never was.

Here is my question: Was there every a time in the history of Christianity when Christians did believe that Jesus was produced by God and Mary through sex? What did the first Christians believe? It seems to me that since the first followers were Jews, that they would have been horrified at such a suggestion.

It sounds like a pretty dumb question to me, but I honestly don't know. To make matters worse, my younger brother thinks that "begotten" in the Bible means sex: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son....", so I should extend my question to include any "Christians" today who have that misconception.

Thank you.
God did not have sex with mary to give her jesus, i want you to know that God who created we humans knows more than our imaginations, to have a child we belief it is through sex, but the holy bible says that the holyspirit told may that she will bare a son after the holyspirit as come upon you, i feel come upon you meant that God the holyspirit was going to give her the grace to go supernatural ,like when the holyspirit came upon the disciples after jesus ascended, we know that the disciples wher no more operating in the natural same applies to this, by this our lord jesus christ can come into her, please let not belief that God had sex with mary to bore jesus.

[spl_cadet]

Explain Mark 3:31 then.

Half-brothers from a previous marriage or, following the Hebraic custom of referring to cousins and other kinsmen as brothers, other extended relatives. You'll note that there are other passages that refer to over 120 "brothers" of Jesus.

[Daco]

Half-brothers from a previous marriage or, following the Hebraic custom of referring to cousins and other kinsmen as brothers, other extended relatives. You'll note that there are other passages that refer to over 120 "brothers" of Jesus.

Without citing these "other passages," I'm not sure which passages you are talking about. I trust this does not refer to Acts 1:13-15: "And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)" Surely you are not suggesting that the end of verse 15 is linking back to the end of verse 14 i.e. about an hundred and twenty - and with his brethren.

If this passage is that to which you refer, I believe the 120 brethren is the total count of those (disciples, associates, brothers, mother, etc.) present. I do not believe this is talking about extended relatives, cousins, etc. The brethren in verse 14, I believe were of the family of Jesus and Mary.

Any brothers or sisters that Jesus had would have been half-brothers or half-sisters. His father was the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20). Whether they were sons and daughters of Joseph from a previous marriage...or sons and daughters of Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus would make no difference in that regard. Personally, I believe they were born of Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus.

[Spirit-Filled]

All true Christians from the first century on believed in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.Because if HE wasn't virgin borned his blood would have been tainted and justification for fallen mankind wouldn't be possible.So belief in the virgin birth and diety of Christ are essentials of The Faith.

[kogseeker]

I told this fellow that Christians do not believe that

I suppose, without sounding to "Clinton-esque", that it depends upon how one defines "having sex".

You are right in that probably most Christians don't believe that God had intercourse with Mary. And yet they do believe that God somehow impregnated her, that somehow God provided or created the complimentary male DNA necessary for human life.

So how do we define "having sex"? Is it intercourse? If it impregnation? If God, being external to Mary, somehow entered inside her and got her pregnant, is that sex?

Any thoughts?

[kogseeker]

All true Christians from the first century on believed in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.Because if HE wasn't virgin borned his blood would have been tainted and justification for fallen mankind wouldn't be possible.So belief in the virgin birth and diety of Christ are essentials of The Faith.

Hey, Spirit-filled, can you explain this a little better?

It's my understanding, though I am not a doctor, that the blood of a fetus is its own, that it doesn't share its blood with either the mother or the father. The mother's blood never passes through the placental boundary.

So if the fetus has its own blood, what difference does it make concerning not getting "contaminated blood" from a human father?

Furthermore, are you saying that Mary's blood was not "contaminated", that she did not have a sin nature just because she was a virgin? Does having sex cause a woman's sin nature to change from latent to active? Or was Mary, as most Catholics believe, sinless? If so, how did she achieve that sinless state considering that she herself was born of a human father? Did the Holy Spirit purify her blood when he came upon her to get her pregnant? If so, then being a virgin wouldn't have been necessary, would it?

[Goonerman]

The terms 'Father and Son' are human anthropomorphic terms for the first two Persons in the Trinity representing how the Wisdom of God comes from God 'the Father'. In the case of God the Son, God of God, Light of Light, begotten not created, being conceived by the Spirit overshadowing Mary, to refer to God having sex with Mary to produce Jesus is an oxymoron, since God in His Wisdom, Logos, Second Person of the Trinity actually by His power became the actual child conceived in Mary's womb. God by His power became the child in Mary's womb, that is what happened. The Father sent the Son to enter Mary's womb by the Spirit, who then activated her egg around God the Son who had somehow compressed His infinite self in Mary's womb. Sex had no involvement in the procedure whatsoever, and the Virgin Birth was necessary for this child to be God Himself manifest in human flesh, and not any other kid. Nothing else needs to be said. As Gabriel says, this is why the child will be called the Son of God (ie the Father who sent Him). Jesus' Sonship to His Father is to do with His coming eternally from the Father and being sent from the throne of Heaven via the Spirit into Mary's womb.

As for Mary, Joseph and Jesus' siblings, Mary was a virgin only for the birth of Jesus. Matthew states clearly that Mary and Joseph did not have sex until Jesus was born. Which means they did have sex afterwards. Luke calls Jesus Mary's firstborn, a boy. Possibly indicating that she had girls as well as boys by Joseph. In Mark 3 and the other Synoptics, the siblings of Jesus, both brothers and sisters, are always mentioned in connection with Mary.

Finally, as to Mary's sinful condition, being an ordinary person in need of a Saviour like the rest of us imperfect people, Mary rejoiced in God her Saviour in the Magnificat, and she offered a sin offering, as seen when getting herself purified in the Temple after giving birth to Jesus, in accordance with the Law when she sacrificed a pigeon and a turtle dove, one as a thanksgiving offering, the other as a sin offering.

[Okieshowedem]

How many Laws found in the Torah would this break?
Would you let God knock your wife up?
I would not!
By the way if as Christian believe Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of God what does that make Jesus?

Okieshowedem

[bigsplit]

He's generally thought to have been pretty old by the time he married her, mainly just to help her out.


This does not hold true because she was going to marry him before she became pregnant, this is why the angel came to him. It is silly to believe she was a virgin her whole life and that Jesus did not have brothers. If the logic is that he married her just to help her out, it would be just as logical to say Jesus married the other Mary to help her out. The hyperbole used to generate Chrst deity is amazing at times and now in modern times where magic and Pagan Gods in heavenly chariots are no longer the competition, these embellishments are doing more harm to the true miracle of Jesus Christ..............HIS MESSAGE!!!!! That is what is important. But, we love dogma and the magic stories....kinda like a kid and Saint Nick.

[Rusty T]

Matthew states clearly that Mary and Joseph did not have sex until Jesus was born. Which means they did have sex afterwards.

Matthew 1:24-25, When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

What was Matthew trying to say here? Was he trying to pinpoint the moment that sex occurred between Mary and Joseph? Or was he trying to say something else - especially about the virginity of Mary. As I'm sure you're aware, the use of the word 'until' doesn't necessarily reflect a change in situation. This can be seen in many cases in the OT.

Luke calls Jesus Mary's firstborn, a boy. Possibly indicating that she had girls as well as boys by Joseph.

"First-born" doesn't indicate more children. In Exodus it says, "Every first-born shall be sanctified unto God." Were only children not sanctified?

In Mark 3 and the other Synoptics, the siblings of Jesus, both brothers and sisters, are always mentioned in connection with Mary.

I've discussed the 'siblings' of Jesus elsewhere - most recently about "James, the brother of Jesus (http://becominghinged.wordpress.com/2007/03/02/all-the-jameses/)" on my blog.

rusty

[Anoetos]

Tizz,

It may not prove that they did enjoy a normal conjugal relationship after the birth of Jesus, but neither does it prove that they didn't.

It just seems saner, safer, more realistic to assume that they were normal people with a normal marriage, at least to us.

[Apolocaust]

Tizz,

It may not prove that they did enjoy a normal conjugal relationship after the birth of Jesus, but neither does it prove that they didn't.

It just seems saner, safer, more realistic to assume that they were normal people with a normal marriage, at least to us.

Well, Joseph and Mary weren't exactly normal, considering that Mary gave birth to God. And there are people who do have celibate marriages.

[Anoetos]

Well, Joseph and Mary weren't exactly normal, considering that Mary gave birth to God. And there are people who do have celibate marriages.

Point taken, but their "specialness" wasn;t due to anything inherent in them, nor did it rest upon the nature of their marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

[mosabdullah]

That's a pretty catchy title, isn't it?

I've been having a little conversation with a Muslim about some ayas in the Qur'an:

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

According to the Muslims these ayas are correcting the Christians and pointing out that God did not have sex with Mary in order to produce Jesus. In other words, Allah believes that this is what the Christians believe.

I told this fellow that Christians do not believe that and never did so the ayas are condemning a Christian belief that never was.

Here is my question: Was there every a time in the history of Christianity when Christians did believe that Jesus was produced by God and Mary through sex? What did the first Christians believe? It seems to me that since the first followers were Jews, that they would have been horrified at such a suggestion.

It sounds like a pretty dumb question to me, but I honestly don't know. To make matters worse, my younger brother thinks that "begotten" in the Bible means sex: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son....", so I should extend my question to include any "Christians" today who have that misconception.

Thank you.

Just in case someone does come a cross this and read it your Muslim friend and you are both
ignorant of what these verses are saying. Muslims have never said that Christians think God had sex with Mary.

God is far beyond having a son or a partner or a co-equal (trinity, son-ship etc). These verses are refuting the fact that Christians make the statement about Jesus being God and/or Son of God and/or the trinity. The reason I say and or is because or Christian groups cannot even agree on what role God and Jesus play in Christianity.

The Quran is very clear and straightforward about these issues. No beating around the bush and no differences between all groups in Islam.

Next time you make a claim at least research or ask a knowledgeable Muslims. Save you having to look ignorant later when someone proves you wrong.

[Christian2]

Just in case someone does come a cross this and read it your Muslim friend and you are both
ignorant of what these verses are saying. Muslims have never said that Christians think God had sex with Mary.

God is far beyond having a son or a partner or a co-equal (trinity, son-ship etc). These verses are refuting the fact that Christians make the statement about Jesus being God and/or Son of God and/or the trinity. The reason I say and or is because or Christian groups cannot even agree on what role God and Jesus play in Christianity.

The Quran is very clear and straightforward about these issues. No beating around the bush and no differences between all groups in Islam.

Next time you make a claim at least research or ask a knowledgeable Muslims. Save you having to look ignorant later when someone proves you wrong.

I have done the research and I have talked with many Muslims about this issue.

Problem is many Muslims do accuse Christians of believing that Jesus is a result of sex between God and Mary and they get that idea from the Qur'an.

[mosabdullah]

I have done the research and I have talked with many Muslims about this issue.

Problem is many Muslims do accuse Christians of believing that Jesus is a result of sex between God and Mary and they get that idea from the Qur'an.

I guess then they are ignorant Muslims. I doubt they get it from the Quran because had the been reading the Quran they would know otherwise. I mean it is not that difficult for someone that is ignorant to here the statement that Christians make "Jesus is the Son of God" and t hen assume that God had sex with Mary.

It goes both ways. Anyway either way this is definitely not what this verse is implying.

[John Goddard]

I guess then they are ignorant Muslims. I doubt they get it from the Quran because had the been reading the Quran they would know otherwise. I mean it is not that difficult for someone that is ignorant to here the statement that Christians make "Jesus is the Son of God" and t hen assume that God had sex with Mary.

It goes both ways. Anyway either way this is definitely not what this verse is implying.

It is about the Christian notion that a second deity person proceeded out of God which makes for a pantheon and polytheism, a Father God person and a Son God person.

The Quran isn't against the idea that believers are as the children of God. In that sense, the Messiah is THE Son of God as promised to David.

[John Goddard]

:duh:


The post this response refers to has been moved to a much more appropriate forum. :hehe:

[headheart]

I think this "begotten" subject is a huge mistake in the Qur'an--right up there with Jesus didn't die on the cross.


Yes, I agree.

The reference to 'unique' in your replies (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1283431&postcount=3), as well as the point mentioned about the problem with the source material (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1287437&postcount=10)...... out of which Mohammed's murdered scribe and those who much later compiled and have assembled whatever was written on 'wood, hay and stubble' into what is regarded as the Holy Q'uran....has many weaknesses in understanding what is written...here is a literal translation of the uniquely inspired text that seems to be under scrutiny...


13
“No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.(i)
14
Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15
so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.(j)
16
“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.
17
Because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's unique Son.

(i) 3:13 Other mss. lack 'who is in heaven'
(j) 3:15 The quotation possibly concludes with this verse instead of with verse 21.

HH.

[JAYMZ]

He's generally thought to have been pretty old by the time he married her, mainly just to help her out.

What would be Gods purpose to have Mary remain a virgin her whole life ?

Sex between a husband and wife is not dirty.

[JAYMZ]

What would be Gods purpose to have Mary remain a virgin her whole life ?

Sex between a husband and wife is not dirty.

never mind. I see that it comes from the apocryphal book " the nativity of Mary."