Can God Speak To Man?

[seer]

This has been a common theme in these threads. That God is so different, so other, that he can not communicate to man. That we could not possibily understand.

We are rational, moral beings who understand a great deal. For the sake of argument, let's say that God prefered that men love and care for each other, rather than harm and murder each other. What would prevent Him from communicating that preference to us?

[Vivian]

This has been a common theme in these threads. That God is so different, so other, that he can not communicate to man. That we could not possibily understand.

We are rational, moral beings who understand a great deal. For the sake of argument, let's say that God prefered that men love and care for each other, rather than harm and murder each other. What would prevent Him from communicating that preference to us?

Because in His Presence, not only could we not understand, but our being would be burned to crisp?

And not as in the burning of flesh, but a burning that begins within, that causes all of our evil to rise to the surface, destroying us from the inside out. (For Light reveals the darkness.)

What man refers to as communication from God is a much stepped down dilution of the formless, Perfect, Pure, and Blissful God, which can be received via our conscience, true revelation, visions, dreams, other encounters with spiritual beings, and from the presence of an incarnated angel or messenger from God.

However, malevolent entities can communicate with humanity in the same way, even masquerading as the god of our imaginings [whatever we image is not the One True God] this is why the first line of discernment in a spiritual encounter is right understanding.



viv

[seer]

What man refers to as communication from God is a much stepped down dilution of the formless, Perfect, Pure, and Blissful God, which can be received via our conscience, true revelation, visions, dreams, other encounters with spiritual beings, and from the presence of an incarnated angel or messenger from God.

Yes the messages may be stepped down as you say. But never the less true. That God can communicate His preference to us, in ways that we can understand...

[Durthorin]

Yes the messages may be stepped down as you say. But never the less true. That God can communicate His preference to us, in ways that we can understand...

I can comminicate with a dog. Come, Sit, roll over. Bad Dog. But would you say the dog understands me? Given that the difference between a finite human being and an infinite, all knowing all poweful Diety is even greater. Is what the dog does understands, true? Only in the sense its what I want done.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[technomage]

This has been a common theme in these threads. That God is so different, so other, that he can not communicate to man. That we could not possibily understand.

The common theme is your refusal to understand: as I've explained to you several times before, it's not that God would have any difficulty speaking, it's that man would have grave trouble understanding.

[seer]

I can comminicate with a dog. Come, Sit, roll over. Bad Dog. But would you say the dog understands me? Given that the difference between a finite human being and an infinite, all knowing all poweful Diety is even greater. Is what the dog does understands, true? Only in the sense its what I want done.

Dur, you did not answer the question. If God had a moral preference - that we should love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them - could He communicate that preference to us - if not why not? Certainly we could understand what it means to care for our fellow man rather than harm him?

[seer]

The common theme is your refusal to understand: as I've explained to you several times before, it's not that God would have any difficulty speaking, it's that man would have grave trouble understanding.

I will repeat what I said to Dur: If God had a moral preference - that we should love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them - could He communicate that preference to us - if not why not? Certainly we could understand what it means to care for our fellow man rather than harm him?

[Vivian]

Yes the messages may be stepped down as you say. But never the less true. That God can communicate His preference to us, in ways that we can understand...

Actually, it is rarely that humanity understands. Just look at historically how man has distorted the messages received from God! (eg the Jews)

Because of all the layers (mansions in the Father's house), His revealings are subject to many contaminations, not least is our own separative perspective and so His messages for most of us are received contaminated with the slime of self.

This is why right understanding is essential, so that we may see through the selfishness that has clothed His Perfect messages and inspirations.

Most importantly, we must participate through repentance and surrender in the purification process of our hearts. Get the wax out of our ears so to speak.

For this reason, it is not wise to rely on what others say God says, but look within ourselves for what we truly know and thus can truly believe in, but always being open to guidance from those whose understanding exceeds ours.

The difference being blind faith, which is unbiblical, versus true faith that is rooted in inner knowing.


viv

[Vivian]

The common theme is your refusal to understand: as I've explained to you several times before, it's not that God would have any difficulty speaking, it's that man would have grave trouble understanding.

Indeed.

Very few are able to hear clearly.

I will repeat what I said to Dur: If God had a moral preference - that we should love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them - could He communicate that preference to us - if not why not? Certainly we could understand what it means to care for our fellow man rather than harm him?

This issue is not God's preference but His Laws. By our free choice we have wandered out of hearing range. Not to say that He doesn't stand on His Porch and cry out for us!

We just have wandered so far away that our minds are veiled to perception and understanding of the divine. Hence the divine incarnates here now and again to show us the Way Home.



viv

[seer]

Not always. Just look at historically how man has distorted the messages received from God! (eg the Jews)

No doubt there is often selfishness in our motives. But I think the Ten Commandments were quite clear for instance. Actually most of the Mosaic law was fairly plain. The teachings of Christ and Paul, on moral issues, were also pretty straightforward...

Most importantly, we must participate through repentance and surrender to the purification process of our hearts. Get the wax out of our ears so to speak.

What don't men understand about "Thou shall not commit adultery?" We are morally accountable to God's law Viv, because we can understand it - choosing to follow it is another issue.

[seer]

This issue is not God's preference but His Laws. By our free choice we have wandered out of hearing range. Not to say that He doesn't stand on His Porch and cry out for us!

God's laws are His preferences for us. And yes some refuse to respond.

We just have wandered so far away that our minds are veiled to perception and understanding of the divine. Hence the divine incarnates here now and again to show us the Way Home.

Really Viv. I only know of one divine incarnate. The Lord Jesus Christ. You know of others?

[Durthorin]

Dur, you did not answer the question. If God had a moral preference - that we should love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them - could He communicate that preference to us - if not why not? Certainly we could understand what it means to care for our fellow man rather than harm him?


I guess the first problem is that God by his nature is not moral nor immoral. He is amoral, that is to say outside human definitions of morality. There is also no external moral code which restricts his conduct.. Your example is germaine as well.. God orders at one time for us to "love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them" at another time God orders the genocide of a race. So from a communication standpoint.. what is communicated is "Obey what I say now." Certainly if man understood a message of "love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them" a large segment of Christian history would be absent.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[seer]

I guess the first problem is that God by his nature is not moral nor immoral. He is amoral, that is to say outside human definitions of morality.

Why do you say this Dur? Where did you get this information about God?

There is also no external moral code which restricts his conduct..

I agree, I would say that there is an internal moral code that restricts His conduct. For instance scripture says that God can not lie. Do you believe God can lie Dur?

God orders at one time for us to "love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them" at another time God orders the genocide of a race. So from a communication standpoint.. what is communicated is "Obey what I say now." Certainly if man understood a message of "love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them" a large segment of Christian history would be absent.

Dur you are going off point. Even if the moral preference was obey what I say now, what would prevent Him from communicating that to us. This is the topic of the thread - try to stick with it...

[Durthorin]

Why do you say this Dur? Where did you get this information about God?


Its in your Bible. By the definition of amoral, your God is.. he stands outside moral/immoral, as you state yourself his only judgement of morality is himself.


I agree, I would say that there is an internal moral code that restricts His conduct. For instance scripture says that God can not lie. Do you believe God can lie Dur?


You pray he has an internal moral code, but its a code that allows for genocide, killing children and the occasional destruction of all life on earth. So in my mind, of course he can lie.

1 Kg.22:23 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1kg/22.html#23) "Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee." 2 Chr.18:22 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/18.html#22) "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets. Jer.4:10 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/4.html#10) "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people." Jer.20:7 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/20.html#7) "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived." Ezek.14:9 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ezek/14.html#9) "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." 2 Th.2:11 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/2th/2.html#11) "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." Also, consider that by your concept God can do anything that God wishes to do. Is that not so? So the only control over God deciding to lie or not lie.. is God.


Dur you are going off point. Even if the moral preference was obey what I say now, what would prevent Him from communicating that to us. This is the topic of the thread - try to stick with it...


You failed to get the point Seer. The more complex the message the less you understand it. A dog is taught to obey, its not taught to understand.. that obedance is based on punishment and reward. Wrath and Blessings? Which is basically the character of the God you worship. Carrot & Stick behavior modification. God can communicate what he wants and you can understand what your supposed to do, but I rather doubt you understand "why" God wants it done or if that action is moral or immoral.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[technomage]

As much as you may dislike it, Seer, Dur gives the logical result of God as depicted in the Bible. YHVH gave the Commandments--but He is not at all required to obey them. God can kill. God can lie.

In the Bible, YHVH is not restrained by the Law, for who can restrain Him?

[seer]

Its in your Bible. By the definition of amoral, your God is.. he stands outside moral/immoral, as you state yourself his only judgement of morality is himself.

That does not mean that He is not a moral being, with moral sensibility/preferences...

You pray he has an internal moral code, but its a code that allows for genocide, killing children and the occasional destruction of all life on earth. So in my mind, of course he can lie.

The question is Dur - do you believe that God can lie. I don't obviously. Taking the life He gave is not lying. And your reference proves nothing...


The more complex the message the less you understand it. A dog is taught to obey, its not taught to understand.. that obedance is based on punishment and reward. Wrath and Blessings? Which is basically the character of the God you worship. Carrot & Stick behavior modification. God can communicate what he wants and you can understand what your supposed to do, but I rather doubt you understand "why" God wants it done or if that action is moral or immoral.

Good, at least we are getting somewhere. So God can at least communicate some moral preferences to us, even if we don't understand all the reason why - though we certainly could understand some. I mean we could understand that random killing, raping, murder, stealing, etc... would bring social disorder.

So Dur, do you believe that God, anywhere, communicated such preferences?

[Durthorin]

That does not mean that He is not a moral being, with moral sensibility/preferences...


If one judges moral behavior by past actions as stated within your Bible, then we have to assume one of two concepts. A. That your God is amoral or B That he is immoral. Since we as you said believe that murder, rape and stealing are immoral and your Diety has in one form or another ordered those actions of his worshipers or commited at least the murder portion himself.


The question is Dur - do you believe that God can lie. I don't obviously. Taking the life He gave is not lying. And your reference proves nothing...


The references prove occasions when your God has acted to decieve.. as lieing is a form of decption and I was told as a child that a lie of ommission is still a lie.. I think I can saftly say your God can lie whenever he wishes to.


Good, at least we are getting somewhere. So God can at least communicate some moral preferences to us, even if we don't understand all the reason why - though we certainly could understand some. I mean we could understand that random killing, raping, murder, stealing, etc... would bring social disorder.


A preferenace agreed.. Its morality No. Whats communicated to you is simple what your God wishes "done". An action to be preformed or not. For it to be a moral preference would mean you would have to assume that your God is a moral being. In your case you make this assumption.. given his history, I decline to do so. Non-Christian civilizations have all agreed that "random killing, raping, murder, stealing, etc... would bring social disorder." and we shoudn't do them. Your God has made a set of rules saying they are wrong as well, but on the other hand he has ordered random killing, what we would consider in the modern sense rape, murder and if one considers the go into your neighbors lands kill them all and take their stuff as yours.. stealing.


So Dur, do you believe that God, anywhere, communicated such preferences?

If I assume your Diety exits as my Gods do then yes, your God can communicate with you. If you understand the message would be the point. I'm prone to often ask the Goddess for a bit of clairification. Also in our journey, Obediance is not so important as choice. Some Pagan Gods are famous for teaching you a lesson based on your faults.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[John from Ebla]

This has been a common theme in these threads. That God is so different, so other, that he can not communicate to man. That we could not possibily understand.

We are rational, moral beings who understand a great deal. For the sake of argument, let's say that God prefered that men love and care for each other, rather than harm and murder each other. What would prevent Him from communicating that preference to us?

Can God speak to man?
Someone once ask, “Why would a omniscient, omnipotent God need a mediator to talk to us? Why not communicate with us directly? This would put and end to any debate—doubt—as to the existence of God- and l agreed with what he asked. Why would "God " omnipotent, omniscient need a mediator? Would not this prove that there is something he cannot do?

If an omnipotent, omniscient God can communicate directly, how would he do it?

A) Shoot an arrow from the sky that has a message at the end of it.

B) Strike people with lighting if they are bad.

C) Use a loud speaker to get to the ears of an individual, but in this case others will hear so why not just speak to all. (Wow! will this be a loud noise)

D) Interact with mankind via a visible form as in (Old Testament)

I think it is, D, God spoke to us in the person of a son (Heb 1:2-3) and we have it in the writing of the New Testament.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[seer]

If one judges moral behavior by past actions as stated within your Bible, then we have to assume one of two concepts. A. That your God is amoral or B That he is immoral. Since we as you said believe that murder, rape and stealing are immoral and your Diety has in one form or another ordered those actions of his worshipers or commited at least the murder portion himself.

God could no more murder than you could steal your own car. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of. It's all His to do with as He pleases.

A preferenace agreed.. Its morality No. Whats communicated to you is simple what your God wishes "done". An action to be preformed or not. For it to be a moral preference would mean you would have to assume that your God is a moral being. In your case you make this assumption.. given his history, I decline to do so.

That is your opinion. And if this God existed what makes you think that your sense of morality would be higher or better than His? On what basis do you stand in judgement of Him?

If I assume your Diety exits as my Gods do then yes, your God can communicate with you. If you understand the message would be the point. I'm prone to often ask the Goddess for a bit of clairification. Also in our journey, Obediance is not so important as choice. Some Pagan Gods are famous for teaching you a lesson based on your faults.

Thank you. Others here do not believe that God can communicate to man in any meaningful sense. So do your gods speak to you?

[seer]

Your God has made a set of rules saying they are wrong as well, but on the other hand he has ordered random killing, what we would consider in the modern sense rape, murder and if one considers the go into your neighbors lands kill them all and take their stuff as yours.. stealing.

God never ordered random killing. He did order the judgement of sinners. He had specific reasons for taking out certain groups/populations.

[Durthorin]

God could no more murder than you could steal your own car. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of. It's all His to do with as He pleases.


So your view of your relationship with God is that your owned, property to be used and disposed of as he sees fiit. Ie, I own a dog and I can have it put down whenever I choose to.


That is your opinion. And if this God existed what makes you think that your sense of morality would be higher or better than His? On what basis do you stand in judgement of Him?


Frankly, I stand in judgement of his behavior and actions based on my morals. If in my judgement I am more moral than the God you wish worshipped. then I can not within the context of my morality obey him. In essence its the Nurenburg option. If given an order that is a crime against humanity should you obey? I was just following God's orders is no more a defense than I was just following the the Governments orders. Given your beliefs if God spoke to you and said Kill X or Kill Y group of people. Then you would obey because God is more moral than you and his order must therefore be moral even if it violates your own code of ethics.

Look at it this way, if God has perfect moral character then what he gives you is perfectly moral. He has given yout he Bible as a perfect code of moral conduct.. yet within that book you see God violating the code given to humanity. Now if the conduct is perfectly moral then it is always moral or immoral (given the thou shall nots) and it is moral or immoral for everyone.. it is afterall assumed by Christians that this was meant to be a universal code for all men at all times. Yet once more we have your God on more occasion than one violating those codes. Your answer is that he can because he "owns" us and everthing else. I'm sure that a southern slave holder than hung a slave was never charged with murder, afterall he "owned" that sentient being he killed. But from a moral standpoint would you not consider it murder?


Thank you. Others here do not believe that God can communicate to man in any meaningful sense. So do your gods speak to you?

Yes.. an have for many years.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[seer]

So your view of your relationship with God is that your owned, property to be used and disposed of as he sees fiit. Ie, I own a dog and I can have it put down whenever I choose to.



Frankly, I stand in judgement of his behavior and actions based on my morals. If in my judgement I am more moral than the God you wish worshipped. then I can not within the context of my morality obey him. In essence its the Nurenburg option. If given an order that is a crime against humanity should you obey? I was just following God's orders is no more a defense than I was just following the the Governments orders. Given your beliefs if God spoke to you and said Kill X or Kill Y group of people. Then you would obey because God is more moral than you and his order must therefore be moral even if it violates your own code of ethics.

Look at it this way, if God has perfect moral character then what he gives you is perfectly moral. He has given yout he Bible as a perfect code of moral conduct.. yet within that book you see God violating the code given to humanity. Now if the conduct is perfectly moral then it is always moral or immoral (given the thou shall nots) and it is moral or immoral for everyone.. it is afterall assumed by Christians that this was meant to be a universal code for all men at all times. Yet once more we have your God on more occasion than one violating those codes. Your answer is that he can because he "owns" us and everthing else. I'm sure that a southern slave holder than hung a slave was never charged with murder, afterall he "owned" that sentient being he killed. But from a moral standpoint would you not consider it murder?



Yes.. an have for many years.

Brighid Bless, Dur

I think I'll bow out Dur. Thanks for the discussion...

[Durthorin]

God never ordered random killing. He did order the judgement of sinners. He had specific reasons for taking out certain groups/populations.

Hitler had "specific reasons for taking out certain groups/populations." Last time I read a history book it wasn't seen as a moral action.

Random killing. The first born of Egypt leaps to mind. In your mind that was a judgement on sinners? I'd be interested to know what sin a new born baby boy is guilty of off hand? Judgement on their parents? You have commited a crime and the governemtn comes takes your child and executes him for your crime? Interesting judgement=justice don't you think and I'm sure if it were anyone but God one you would consider to be immoral, would you not?

The flood? Every species destroyed except for seed stock? So what sin did all the other animals commit that they had to die alongside "sinful" mankind?

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Durthorin]

I think I'll bow out Dur. Thanks for the discussion...

Anytime. Be well and thank you.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Vivian]

No doubt there is often selfishness in our motives. But I think the Ten Commandments were quite clear for instance. Actually most of the Mosaic law was fairly plain. The teachings of Christ and Paul, on moral issues, were also pretty straightforward...

What don't men understand about "Thou shall not commit adultery?" We are morally accountable to God's law Viv, because we can understand it - choosing to follow it is another issue.


This is obviously not the case, Seer, or Jesus would not have frequently pointed out the Jews' misunderstandings.

And obviously we do not understand either, or we would not be here on Tweb discussing [arguing] various interpretations.


viv

[Richbee]

This has been a common theme in these threads. That God is so different, so other, that he can not communicate to man. That we could not possibily understand.

We are rational, moral beings who understand a great deal. For the sake of argument, let's say that God prefered that men love and care for each other, rather than harm and murder each other. What would prevent Him from communicating that preference to us?

:b_evil:

Could I play Devil's advocate just this once?

Haven't you justified the "Golden Rule(s)" theory, and that all Religions are united in a sense of "do no harm"?

Is God speaking through all Religions? Is this Morality or Ethics?

Does it matter? What are the origins of these ideas within each faith tradition? Genesis? Why then did Cain kill Abel? (Was he lacking the instructions of Moses?)

[seer]

:b_evil:

Could I play Devil's advocate just this once?

Haven't you justified the "Golden Rule(s)" theory, and that all Religions are united in a sense of "do no harm"?

Is God speaking through all Religions? Is this Morality or Ethics?

Does it matter? What are the origins of these ideas within each faith tradition? Genesis? Why then did Cain kill Abel? (Was he lacking the instructions of Moses?)

Clutch, I'am not going to post on this board for a while. There is a intense spiritual battle taking place here that I am not prepared to enter, in my present condition... Beware brother...

[tmancour]

Dur, you did not answer the question. If God had a moral preference - that we should love and care for our fellow man rather than harm and murder them - could He communicate that preference to us - if not why not? Certainly we could understand what it means to care for our fellow man rather than harm him?


Ah, but how would we know that it was truly "God",. and not a deceiver? I have nor issue with the Divine communicating universal compassion. It's the fine print with the clauses on masturbation and shellfish that tend to fuel my doubts. And the stories of smiting: hard to accept advice on universal compassion when it excludes Canaanites.

Arion

[tmancour]

Indeed.

Very few are able to hear clearly.



This issue is not God's preference but His Laws. By our free choice we have wandered out of hearing range. Not to say that He doesn't stand on His Porch and cry out for us!

We just have wandered so far away that our minds are veiled to perception and understanding of the divine. Hence the divine incarnates here now and again to show us the Way Home.

viv

But which laws? Which version of divine revelation should be accepted, and why? Andy why is it so much better to practice universal compassion because you were commanded to do so by an egotistic divinity than because we figured out that it was a good idea on our own?

Arion

[tmancour]

Really Viv. I only know of one divine incarnate. The Lord Jesus Christ. You know of others?


You should get out more.

Arion

[Richbee]

Clutch, I'am not going to post on this board for a while. There is a intense spiritual battle taking place here that I am not prepared to enter, in my present condition... Beware brother...

O.K., take care and "Do no Harm". Love thy Neighbor, and Happy Holidays.

These pagans or Neopagans are DIVINE, like little versions of God - created in God's likeness. This is a transcendent truth - it's true whether they believe it or not. I'm not sure that projecting the desires or the yearning for the god and goddess or 'Lord and Lady" is workin' for the Wiccans. Where is the "fruit"?

Where is the joy? Where is the Love for them "neighbors"? And, why hasn't the Mother Earth Goddess made herself known through all of history? 1945? Did the Gaia goddess mourn and weep for the Earth when the Atom bomb went off?

How about when the sea of humanity poluted the Earth in the 19th century? So, why did those Uber-Fem' Babes wait so long to cry out fortheir inner "goddess"? A trend? A fad? (Stay tuned)

:popcorn:

[Xelsorsior]

I think that you are a very highly intellectual being, therefore, I put the answer to you like this, Yes.

[Richbee]

IMO, and speaking from a different faith “path” or tradition, the Bible is a direct revelation of God, and indeed, there is an indirect revelation as found in Nature.
Sure, we should get out more often, and as a young boy growing up in Vermont, I encountered God in the Green mountains of my youth.

Our age is retrospective. It builds the sepulchers of the fathers. It writes biographies, histories, and criticism. The foregoing generations beheld God and nature face to face; we, through their eyes. Why should not we also enjoy an original relation to the universe? Why should not we have a poetry and philosophy of insight and not of tradition, and a religion by revelation to us, and not the history of theirs? Embosomed for a season in nature, whose floods of life stream around and through us, and invite us by the powers they supply, to action proportioned to nature, why should we grope among the dry bones of the past, or put the living generation into masquerade out of its faded wardrobe? The sun shines to-day also. There is more wool and flax in the fields. There are new lands, new men, new thoughts. Let us demand our own works and laws and worship.

Undoubtedly we have no questions to ask which are unanswerable. We must trust the perfection of the creation so far, as to believe that whatever curiosity the order of things has awakened in our minds, the order of things can satisfy. Every man's condition is a solution in hieroglyphic to those inquiries he would put. He acts it as life, before he apprehends it as truth. In like manner, nature is already, in its forms and tendencies, describing its own design. Let us interrogate the great apparition, that shines so peacefully around us. Let us inquire, to what end is nature?

(Introduction, from Nature, published as part of Nature; Addresses and Lectures, by Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1836)