Prophecy overturned, what would you then do?

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

This is a question for evangelical Christians, who believe that the Bible is a supernatural book, without error...

Someone has challenged me to ask Christians what they would do if a prophecy was clearly overturned in Scripture, now specifically, it is predicted that Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited (Isa. 13:19-20, Jer. 25:12, Jer. 51:26), and we may note that Saddam recently tried! Alexander the Great did, too.

Now assuming this is an accurate description of these verses (you may substitute another Bible prophecy if you wish) what if someone succeeded in doing what these verses say cannot be done? And let's also say that Babylon remained restored for a number of years, so that it became pretty undeniable that it was really rebuilt or reinhabited. Would this make a difference in your Christian faith?

Thanks for your input on this,
Lee

[NeilUnreal]

I worry that you have left out a fifth option, which is the one most likely to be taken. That is, to say that the original understanding of the prophecy was wrong, so its overturning was only apparent, and now that we realize our error of understanding, we can can see that the prophecy has not been overturned.

-Neil

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I worry that you have left out a fifth option, which is the one most likely to be taken. That is, to say that the original understanding of the prophecy was wrong, so its overturning was only apparent, and now that we realize our error of understanding, we can can see that the prophecy has not been overturned.

-NeilI'm with Neil here. What if someone built a city in the location of the site that Babylon stood and called it "Babylon"? A disagreement would break out as to whether it really was "Babylon" as the prophet meant or not.

[jason]

Hi everyone,

This is a question for evangelical Christians, who believe that the Bible is a supernatural book, without error...

Someone has challenged me to ask Christians what they would do if a prophecy was clearly overturned in Scripture, now specifically, it is predicted that Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited (Isa. 13:19-20, Jer. 25:12, Jer. 51:26), and we may note that Saddam recently tried! Alexander the Great did, too.

Now assuming this is an accurate description of these verses (you may substitute another Bible prophecy if you wish) what if someone succeeded in doing what these verses say cannot be done? And let's also say that Babylon remained restored for a number of years, so that it became pretty undeniable that it was really rebuilt or reinhabited. Would this make a difference in your Christian faith?

Thanks for your input on this,
Lee
As noted there is always the possibility that our original understanding was in error.

Additionally, what would it mean to never be reinhabited ? As int his cased ? If someone tried and succeeded for a year or two before it coming horribly to grief, would that count as an overturning of the prophecy ?

I'm not sure it would.

Jason

[George Murphy]

Hi everyone,

This is a question for evangelical Christians, who believe that the Bible is a supernatural book, without error...

Someone has challenged me to ask Christians what they would do if a prophecy was clearly overturned in Scripture, now specifically, it is predicted that Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited (Isa. 13:19-20, Jer. 25:12, Jer. 51:26), and we may note that Saddam recently tried! Alexander the Great did, too.

Now assuming this is an accurate description of these verses (you may substitute another Bible prophecy if you wish) what if someone succeeded in doing what these verses say cannot be done? And let's also say that Babylon remained restored for a number of years, so that it became pretty undeniable that it was really rebuilt or reinhabited. Would this make a difference in your Christian faith?

Thanks for your input on this,
Lee

Here's a better example. Ezekiel 26:1 - 28:9 has four elaborate and very powerful oracles against Tyre and its king, proclaiming, among other things, not only that it will be utterly destroyed but that this will be done by Nebuchadrezzar (26:7 ff). This didn't happen - Nebuchadrezzar finally had to give up his 13 year seige, & while Tyre did have to accept Babylon as its overlord, it wasn't destroyed then. (That didn't happen till Alexander's conquest ~250 years later.) We know this from secular history - but also from the Book of Ezekiel itself! 29:17-20 recognizes that Nebuchadrezar didn't succeed & doesn't show any embarassment about the fact! There God just says, well, since the Babylonians worked so hard for me I'll give them Egypt as consolation!

If people take this example seriously they'll realize that (a) not all the prophecies of the Bible were fulfilled literally and (b) no elaborate apologetic for that fact is necessary.

Shalom,
George

[James Peter]

Well, I voted for the third option but it should be noted that such an event has already happened in my life. I've gone from being very much a fundamentalist to having a more 'liberal' (although I prefer to emphasis it is also more 'academic') understanding of scripture. Close examination and study of scripture reveals many problems with the 'Word of God' theory and it is liberating to realise that it isn't 'needed'. We don't need to defend every prophecy and event in scripture to defend God...although perhaps some do to protect their understanding of God...

[The Unassumed]

I'm with Neil here. What if someone built a city in the location of the site that Babylon stood and called it "Babylon"? A disagreement would break out as to whether it really was "Babylon" as the prophet meant or not.
Incidentally, there was a military stronghold built in the first century A.D., on the Nile Delta named "Babylon".

However, it doesn't really matter if Babylon is rebuilt in the same place. The "never again rebuilt" prophecies in the Bible are hyperbolic - employing a typical Semitic hyperbolic phrase to predict or proclaim destruction. That's all its saying. So it isn't a good example of predictive prophecy, as on this interpretation, it isn't even predictive.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input so far...

As noted there is always the possibility that our original understanding was in error.
Yes, how about if that is included under the last option, for the sake of taking the survey? I should have maybe checked for ideas on phrasing first!

Here's a better example. Ezekiel 26:1 - 28:9 has four elaborate and very powerful oracles against Tyre and its king, proclaiming, among other things, not only that it will be utterly destroyed but that this will be done by Nebuchadrezzar (26:7 ff). This didn't happen...
Well, I have discussed this a lot (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=27783)! A whole lot (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=121739). I do believe the prophecy was fulfilled, though.

The "never again rebuilt" prophecies in the Bible are hyperbolic - employing a typical Semitic hyperbolic phrase to predict or proclaim destruction.
Well, that would be one view! So glad to have your ballot in the box.

It becomes difficult to understand how to distinguish when a prophecy is that a city will be destroyed and then rebuilt, though (as in Jerusalem), if "never rebuilt" means just like Jerusalem, as well. Surely "destroyed and rebuilt" and "never rebuilt" are distinct cases, in some way.

And there seems to be a real meaning of never rebuilt in the case of Babylon, especially since there were attempts to rebuild it, twice, which both could very well have succeeded, and yet failed! It seems maybe there is Someone keeping this city from being rebuilt, and I'm fond of challenging the skeptics to try it!

It would be most enlightening, for someone to make this attempt...

Blessings,
Lee

[George Murphy]

Well, I have discussed this a lot (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=27783)! A whole lot (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=121739). I do believe the prophecy was fulfilled, though.

It would be interesting to see your reasoning since both secular history and the Bible itself say that it wasn't fulfilled.

Shalom,
George

[lee_merrill]

It would be interesting to see your reasoning since both secular history and the Bible itself say that it wasn't fulfilled.
Well, those two links have lots of my reasoning! But in a nutshell, I believe that "many nations" (Eze. 26:3) includes more than just Neb and Babylon, Babylon is always referred to as the nation (singular) of Babylon, so Neb need not do all that this prophecy says will happen.

And here is another verse, which has also come up in discussions:

Ezekiel 26:14 "I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the Lord have spoken," declares the Lord God.

I hold that this could well be read as "you will not be built more," as in Young's Literal Translation: "Thou art not built up any more" as in these similar statements with the same Hebrew expression:

Exodus 9:29 "As soon as I go out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord ... there will be hail no longer..."

Which need not mean that there would never be any hail again in Egypt, rather it must mean that this current hailstorm would stop completely. Or here:

Nehemiah 2:17 Then I said to them ... "Come and let us build the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer be a reproach."

Which need not imply that there would never be any such reproach again.

And Tyre was demolished, as predicted!

"Renan attributed the final devastation of Tyre to the onslaught of the Arabs at the end of the thirteenth century. From the ruins of the destroyed city [etc.]" ("Tyre through the Ages," p. 22)

But it took a long time, which would seem to make the prophecy more improbable, more obviously supernatural.

Blessings,
Lee