What did Jesus mean...

[spitndirt]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......

[James Peter]

What Jesus meant was that those who searched the Torah and other writings for salvation yet they misunderstood them and thought salvation would come from following the letter rather than the spirit of the law...

Can the same be said of many today? Yes. But that does not mean that Jesus was speaking to those today. I'm confident he would have said something very similar, but we can't really just apply his words to a different group of people with integrity...

[Pilgrim]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......
Well, I think what Jesus is getting at is that ou ultimate authority and hope is in the Living Word, not the written word.

[Howie]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

"Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......You are referring to John 5:39. It is fascinating to me how the translations have moved further and further from the original Greek rather than closer and closer. If you read the Greek, you can see that what Jesus is saying is that we look in the scriptures but we don’t understand that the way He is showing us is the same as the way in the scriptures. It is my understanding that he is pointing us to similarities between his teachings and those of Moses. He came to clarify (fulfill) the scriptures not to negate them. I have always found this a most informative challenge to accept. Seek in the teachings of Moses similarities with the teachings of Jesus.

[David_A_Reed]

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."
The key words are "come to me."

True Christianity is not a set of beliefs, or knowledge of Scripture, or an organization, either. Scripture identifies Jesus Himself as "the Way and the Truth and the Life." (John 14:6)

He said, "No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

People have to come to Jesus personally.

Under the new covenant "'they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,' is the utterance of Jehovah. 'For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.'" (verse 34)

That would be God's way of dealing with men in the new covenant.

Paul's relationship with God through His Son began when Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus. Later on, Paul told of occasions when "the Lord stood near me and infused power into me" (2 Tim. 4:17 NW), and when Paul spoke to the Lord about his "thorn in the flesh." (2 Cor. 12:7-9)

As a zealous Jew, Paul had had a relationship with God before, but only from a distance. Now, as a Christian, he really knew God.

Jesus promised this continuing relationship with His disciples: "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." (Matt. 18:20)

In fact, we have Jesus' promise that "he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him. ...and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him." (John 14:21-23)

The Living Bible paraphrases it this way: "When I come back to life again...I will only reveal myself to those who love and obey me. The Father will love them too, and we will come to them and live with them." (verses 20-23)

Of real Christians Galatians 4:6 says "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"

Christ assures at Luke 11:10-13, "For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or it he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

So, the Gospel, the new covenant, is not a set of doctrines to learn or new about God. Rather, it is a salvation based on a relationship.

"You, however, are controlled not by your sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. ...Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit who makes you sons. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:9-11, 14-16)

Though, as Paul the Apostle admitted, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Corinthians 13:12), it is the Christian's privilege to "know" God through a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

He invites mankind, "Come to me, all of you who are tired from carrying heavy loads, and I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28) "I will never turn away anyone who comes to me." (John 6:37)

David

[Hitch]

You are referring to John 5:39. It is fascinating to me how the translations have moved further and further from the original Greek rather than closer and closer. If you read the Greek, you can see that what Jesus is saying is that we look in the scriptures but we don’t understand that the way He is showing us is the same as the way in the scriptures. It is my understanding that he is pointing us to similarities between his teachings and those of Moses. He came to clarify (fulfill) the scriptures not to negate them. I have always found this a most informative challenge to accept. Seek in the teachings of Moses similarities with the teachings of Jesus.
Well,,, thats what we call Theonomy.

H

[Hitch]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......
Striking the extent to which He personalized it aint it?

[Howie]

Well,,, thats what we call Theonomy.

HDon't jump the gun Hitch. I am sure you know that the word Theonomy means "God's law" and is the belief that the moral laws of the Old Testament are still binding today.

Read my post more carefully. Nowhere will you see the word "law".

I have noticed a tendency of many in theological forums to pigeonhole people to fit preconceptions. I try to write exactly what I mean and to mean exactly what I write. Make a distinction between law and teachings and you will come closer to grasping what I said

[Hitch]

Don't jump the gun Hitch. I am sure you know that the word Theonomy means "God's law" and is the belief that the moral laws of the Old Testament are still binding today.

Read my post more carefully. Nowhere will you see the word "law".

I have noticed a tendency of many in theological forums to pigeonhole people to fit preconceptions. I try to write exactly what I mean and to mean exactly what I write. Make a distinction between law and teachings and you will come closer to grasping what I said
LOL Would you care to explain the 'teachings of Moses' as you put it, apart from the Law? Exactly of course.

[Howie]

LOL Would you care to explain the 'teachings of Moses' as you put it, apart from the Law? Exactly of course.Hi, Hitch.

The most stunning teachings of Moses are the Creation account and Exodus 3, the account of his conversation with the burning bush. Those two accounts may be the most profound metaphysical teachings man has ever heard.

That is not to discount the Ten Commandments, but those are what I would consider directives about how to live on the physical plane.

Laws are the stuff in Leviticus about when to wash your hands, what you can touch, what you can’t touch, what to eat, how to treat your wife, etc. They have nothing to do with teachings.

[commonman]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......

The single most important word in this verse is the word testify. It is the greek word martureo, which means to be a witness or to bear witness. Just like in a court of law a witness testifies to the court about what he/she knows or saw.

The same is true about the scriptures (read Old Testament). They tell of the things they know or saw. The Hebrew scriptures know/saw Christ.

What is really interesting is that Hebrew law required at least two witnesses for a claim to be accepted by the judge. The Hebrew scriptures suffice as one of those witnesses.

The application to the modern church is really quite simple: stop making or finding rules and laws for people to follow with the expectation of eternal salvation. Christians follow God's will not man's rules for salvation.

[Howie]

The single most important word in this verse is the word testify. It is the greek word martureo, which means to be a witness or to bear witness. Just like in a court of law a witness testifies to the court about what he/she knows or saw.

The same is true about the scriptures (read Old Testament). They tell of the things they know or saw. The Hebrew scriptures know/saw Christ.

What is really interesting is that Hebrew law required at least two witnesses for a claim to be accepted by the judge. The Hebrew scriptures suffice as one of those witnesses.

The application to the modern church is really quite simple: stop making or finding rules and laws for people to follow with the expectation of eternal salvation. Christians follow God's will not man's rules for salvation.Thank you for your posts. I am a bit of a nerd for accurate translations of Biblical passages – both OT and NT and I could not agree with you more. A fundamental meaning is lost by not translating “martureo” as “testify” or “bear witness”. My first post laments the modern trends in Biblical translations. I liken these translators to activist judges, referring to them as “activist translators”. These are translators who tweak translations to fit their particular theology, but do so under the guise of “making the bible more accessible to the common man.”

That said, I think the most interesting word in this verse (John 5:39) is the last word in the verse, “emou”. It is possessive case. It means, “mine”, “that which I own (or have or possess)”. It is possessive case but is translated as nominative case – and this is done on a number of occasions in the translations of the Gospels. The exploration of the use of the possessive “emou” by Jesus in the Gospels is a lively area of scholarly study and dispute and has serious theological implications.

[spitndirt]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......
Greetings all,

Thanks for all your comments on this, what I would consider, a teaching that represents the very 'door' or 'gate' as well as the 'key' into the kingdom of God.

I think a couple of you nailed it while the rest filled in the picture quite nicely. I also see, primarily, these two things: the word 'testify' - testifying of Jesus, their promised One - as opposed to an instruction book by which to gain status and lord it over those whom they judged to be 'sinners'. And the command 'Come to me' - in this case being the thing the scholars [would not do], as opposed to what they were putting their trust in, namely their own capacity to [know] apart from the only One who did.

The reason I have asked this question is I see much of the same situation today. Men diligently searching the scriptures and producing endless volumes of opinions and theologies and then putting unnecessary yolks upon men based upon pure human deduction - speculating on the Glories yet to be [fully] known is great and I love to participate. But ot make 'essential doctrine' out of deductions I question. I read: '...all SCRIPTURE is God breathed and is profitable for DOCTRINE....' I cannot even enter a modern Church (at least in my tiny rural area) without being bombarded with probing questions as to 'what I believe'. I soon found out that many churches weren't necessarily concerned with Jesus' command 'Come to Me...' but rather if I would submit to their brand of theology - as opposed to the various OTHER theologies that they taught against. I also noticed that I was being judged accordingly. The thing is, all that my testimony consists of is what I have through the Spirit [come to know]. In fact, I was rebuked once for claiming to actually [know] anything - no longer 'faith' if we know, said my pastor. Now, I don't know if my pastor realized it, but he had in essence just said of himself ' ... I don't know if my theology is true...', but he insisted that I would perish if I departed from it. Well, needless to say...I departed, and was quickly 'condemned' for it.

This experience along with many others from the various denoms that I visited brought this verse - the one we are discussing - completely to light. I was stunned at the truth it conveyed. You see, before I ever set foot in a Church or cracked open the Scriptures I 'Called on the name of the Lord' - and [He answered me] and delivered me from the deep darkness that I had found myself in (because of my wicked lifestyle). Even at this point I had gained 'absolute knowledge' - that God IS, else who helped me; and a little later (when I started reading Scripture) that 'Jesus was INDEED the Christ of God', else God had no grounds to deliver me from sin. Since then through 'asking, seeking, and knocking...' I have learned many things. I know that the Christian life is real and I glory in the kindness of my Lord - and yet I am not so welcome at a Church because I testify to these things.

Have any of you had similar experiences with Churches? Have you ever been told things to this effect: '...what you say is interesting, but some might hear you and feel that they don't have faith since they may not have the same experience.'???

Anyway, thanks again for your many responses. I respect and enjoy the thoughts of others.

Peace in the Lord, all....

[magus]

Your set of beliefs is not necessarily important. But here's the thing.

People can say they have a relationship with Jesus. But what kind? Creature to Creator, Human to God, or just Student to Teacher?

Others have a hate relationship with Jesus; they hate Him, they hate His words, they hate His teachings, they hate His church.

Here's how I describe my relationship with God.

Jesus is my Master, my Lord, my friend, my Saviour. I cling to Him because He first loved me, and chose me out of the world. He took away my sin by dying and rising again, so that I can face His Father through His mediation. Jesus is my God. His Spirit lives on in the world, especially in me, convicting me of sin. His Father is my Creator, and is also my heavenly Father through adoption. His Words are the words of life.

This is my relationship, but it is contains what I know to be true about Jesus. The two go together.

Magus

[Hitch]

Hi, Hitch.

The most stunning teachings of Moses are the Creation account and Exodus 3, the account of his conversation with the burning bush. Those two accounts may be the most profound metaphysical teachings man has ever heard.

That is not to discount the Ten Commandments, but those are what I would consider directives about how to live on the physical plane.

Laws are the stuff in Leviticus about when to wash your hands, what you can touch, what you can’t touch, what to eat, how to treat your wife, etc. They have nothing to do with teachings.
That is idiotic.

[Howie]

That is idiotic.Thank you for that humble Christian response. Do you have anything constructive to contribute?

[Hitch]

Thank you for that humble Christian response. Do you have anything constructive to contribute?Not until I can quit laughing.

[Howie]

Not until I can quit laughing.When you do I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

All the best.

[Daniel927]

Greetings all,

Jesus said to the religious scholars in His day,

" Ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. Yet you will not come to Me that you may have life."

What do you say is the meaning of this - and do you think it has a relevant application in the religious community today?

Curious to see what others think......

That in our attempts to run and find something that is contained in scripture, we look right past what it speaks of, and that is Christ. Did He also say that when the Holy Spirit would come, it would testify of Him? Between these two "witnesses", what is it that they proclaim? Christ?

[spitndirt]

That in our attempts to run and find something that is contained in scripture, we look right past what it speaks of, and that is Christ. Did He also say that when the Holy Spirit would come, it would testify of Him? Between these two "witnesses", what is it that they proclaim? Christ?
Yep! Jesus, the Christ....Exactly right!

An these two witnesses are naturally in agreement since all Scripture is 'God breathed' - inspired by the Spirit of God; outside us, and inside us.

[Anarthrous]

John 5:39 “YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. 40 And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life. 41 I do not accept glory from men, 42 but I well know that YOU do not have the love of God in YOU. 43 I have come in the name of my Father, but YOU do not receive me; if someone else arrived in his own name, YOU would receive that one. 44 How can YOU believe, when YOU are accepting glory from one another and YOU are not seeking the glory that is from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse YOU to the Father; there is one that accuses YOU, Moses, in whom YOU have put YOUR hope. 46 In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me. 47 But if YOU do not believe the writings of that one, how will YOU believe my sayings?”




I think Jesus meant here that:
They were seeking glory from men. I think the major problem is that they were trying to make God's prophecy about the Messiah fit their own motives, instead of molding themselves to fit the scriptures. They did not truly love God, but they were worried they would lose their office of oversight. I has so much to do with humility, that is, humbling yourself before the mighty hand of God.

[Anarthrous]

Hi, Hitch.

The most stunning teachings of Moses are the Creation account and Exodus 3, the account of his conversation with the burning bush. Those two accounts may be the most profound metaphysical teachings man has ever heard.

That is not to discount the Ten Commandments, but those are what I would consider directives about how to live on the physical plane.

Laws are the stuff in Leviticus about when to wash your hands, what you can touch, what you can’t touch, what to eat, how to treat your wife, etc. They have nothing to do with teachings.

I may be wrong, but it seems you are saying the Ten Com. were not part of "the Law".

Romans 13:8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


2 Cor 3:7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

These verses make plain the Apostles considered the Ten Com. part of Moses Law, and shows that the Law of the Christ is to love ones neighbor as yourself, that is the fulfilling of the law. And this is what the Scribes and Pharisees were lacking. They lacked the meaning of the Law, namely: love.

[Daniel927]

"A",

Losing sight of the things that are eternal because of all the deceit and riches (as well as position, station or stature, etc.) of this world.

Christ came and spoke "eternity" to them, but they were lovers of the "here and now", so much so that they rejected the life of God and became his enemy.