Merry Christmas from the Watchtower

[Krusader]

At this time of year, usually the JWs come out full force with their "baaah humbug" attacks on Christmas. But was it always that way? No, here is a link showing four Watchtower Presidents celebrating.....Christmas????? My goodness, you mean these four guys hadn't gotten their "new light" yet? Uuumm, where were those angelic beings who were supposed to transmit truth from Jehovah's throne directly to Brooklyn? Check it out for yourself:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/bethelxmas.html

[NonTrinitarian]

At this time of year, usually the JWs come out full force with their "baaah humbug" attacks on Christmas. But was it always that way? No, here is a link showing four Watchtower Presidents celebrating.....Christmas????? My goodness, you mean these four guys hadn't gotten their "new light" yet? Uuumm, where were those angelic beings who were supposed to transmit truth from Jehovah's throne directly to Brooklyn? Check it out for yourself:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/bethelxmas.html

I guess it's kind of a pattern. You know. First Christians refused to celebrate Jesus' birthday. Then in the 4th century they decided to take the birthday of the Roman Sun god and turn it into the birthday of the Son of God, bringing all the pagan customs with it. Then later it got banned in Europe because of the paganess of it. Then accepted again. Then the pilgrims come to the US and in the 16th century it was again illegal to celebrate the pagan holiday here in the US. Then it was accepted again by the Church. And now Christians have resorted back to the same beliefs as the early Christians did and do not observe Christmas.

[Krusader]

I guess it's kind of a pattern. You know. First Christians refused to celebrate Jesus' birthday. Then in the 4th century they decided to take the birthday of the Roman Sun god and turn it into the birthday of the Son of God, bringing all the pagan customs with it. Then later it got banned in Europe because of the paganess of it. Then accepted again. Then the pilgrims come to the US and in the 16th century it was again illegal to celebrate the pagan holiday here in the US. Then it was accepted again by the Church. And now Christians have resorted back to the same beliefs as the early Christians did and do not observe Christmas.

Actually, I don't know any Christians who do not celebrate the Lord's birthday - but I know many cultists that do not (most of them Non-Trinitarian).

In any case, I won't judge you for not celebrating Christmas, that's up to you. However, your "Non-Trinitarian" logo indicate that you'd have little reason to celebrate it anyway!

[NonTrinitarian]

Actually, I don't know any Christians who do not celebrate the Lord's birthday - but I know many cultists that do not (most of them Non-Trinitarian).

In any case, I won't judge you for not celebrating Christmas, that's up to you. However, your "Non-Trinitarian" logo indicate that you'd have little reason to celebrate it anyway!

Well that's because you didn't know Peter, James or John. And I actually know many "christians" as you would define them because they believe in the Trinity, that do not celebrate Christmas. Go check out the "History Channel" on the web if you want to see the history of Christmas. Up until the 1840's most americans wouldn't even have a tree in their home because they thought it was pagan. Most people who celebrate Christmas would be in shock to see how it was viewed by Americans just a few hundred years ago. The Puritans and most americans from the 1500s-1700s were right on the mark when they said it didn't have squat to do with Jesus.

I'm not sure what my Non-Trinitarian logo has to do with celebrating Christmas other than that that is yet one more belief I have in common with Peter, James and John, but this isn't a thread on the Trinity.

I'm not judging you for celebrating Christmas. I could careless if people at walmart wish me merry christmas or happy holidays or anything else. I'm just addressing your point that the WT flip-flopped on Christmas after doing research on it. I did too. For centuries people have flip-flopped on it.

[Krusader]

Well that's because you didn't know Peter, James or John. And I actually know many "christians" as you would define them because they believe in the Trinity, that do not celebrate Christmas. Go check out the "History Channel" on the web if you want to see the history of Christmas. Up until the 1840's most americans wouldn't even have a tree in their home because they thought it was pagan. Most people who celebrate Christmas would be in shock to see how it was viewed by Americans just a few hundred years ago. The Puritans and most americans from the 1500s-1700s were right on the mark when they said it didn't have squat to do with Jesus.

I'm not sure what my Non-Trinitarian logo has to do with celebrating Christmas other than that that is yet one more belief I have in common with Peter, James and John, but this isn't a thread on the Trinity.

I'm not judging you for celebrating Christmas. I could careless if people at walmart wish me merry christmas or happy holidays or anything else. I'm just addressing your point that the WT flip-flopped on Christmas after doing research on it. I did too. For centuries people have flip-flopped on it.

As, I said, NT, your denial of the Trinity would give you little to celebrate. So, NT, tell me, what do you think of Christ? Is He God the Son?

[NonTrinitarian]

As, I said, NT, your denial of the Trinity would give you little to celebrate. So, NT, tell me, what do you think of Christ? Is He God the Son?
That question is not appropriate for this thread. But I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

[Krusader]

That question is not appropriate for this thread. But I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

And, if He is not God the Son, who is he - a creature?

[NonTrinitarian]

And, if He is not God the Son, who is he - a creature?

What part of "that question is not appropriate for this thread" did you not understand?

[Krusader]

What part of "that question is not appropriate for this thread" did you not understand?

Afraid to answer the question. How about this: Who was born to Mary in the manger? Was He God, and if not, Who was He. If He was God's Son, was He a created Being? Now, this has to do with Christmas.

[Joe Gofish]

Well that's because you didn't know Peter, James or John. And I actually know many "christians" as you would define them because they believe in the Trinity, that do not celebrate Christmas. Go check out the "History Channel" on the web if you want to see the history of Christmas. Up until the 1840's most americans wouldn't even have a tree in their home because they thought it was pagan. Most people who celebrate Christmas would be in shock to see how it was viewed by Americans just a few hundred years ago. The Puritans and most americans from the 1500s-1700s were right on the mark when they said it didn't have squat to do with Jesus.

I'm not sure what my Non-Trinitarian logo has to do with celebrating Christmas other than that that is yet one more belief I have in common with Peter, James and John, but this isn't a thread on the Trinity.

I'm not judging you for celebrating Christmas. I could careless if people at walmart wish me merry christmas or happy holidays or anything else. I'm just addressing your point that the WT flip-flopped on Christmas after doing research on it. I did too. For centuries people have flip-flopped on it.
Sorry but you missed one point, The JW have flip-flopped over the years on many things,Christmas JUST BEING ONE OF THEM, Most people think of the JW as a cult.

[NonTrinitarian]

Sorry but you missed one point, The JW have flip-flopped over the years on many things,Christmas JUST BEING ONE OF THEM, Most people think of the JW as a cult.

I'm just making sure you don't miss the rafter in your own eye. If you profess to be a Christian, your religion flip flopped on Christmas too.

I didn't realize most people thought JW's were a cult. I guess I better leave.

[NonTrinitarian]

Afraid to answer the question. How about this: Who was born to Mary in the manger? Was He God, and if not, Who was He. If He was God's Son, was He a created Being? Now, this has to do with Christmas.

Not afraid to answer, I just note that you are a duck and run apologist when faced with anything serious. And this thread is not about the identity of Jesus. It's about celebrating Christmas and whether it is appropriate to do it or not. Your Master may want you to celebrate it but Jesus didn't.

[Krusader]

Not afraid to answer, I just note that you are a duck and run apologist when faced with anything serious. And this thread is not about the identity of Jesus. It's about celebrating Christmas and whether it is appropriate to do it or not. Your Master may want you to celebrate it but Jesus didn't.

The Watchtower perpetuates a religion of fear. I remember one poor Watchtower girl I knew who received a visit from the elders - one of her co-religionists had reported her for having a Christmas tree. And, we all know what happens if you get disfellowshiped for not toeing the party line:

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7784-Spiritual_shunning.html

[Armor of God]

The Watchtower perpetuates a religion of fear. I remember one poor Watchtower girl I knew who received a visit from the elders - one of her co-religionists had reported her for having a Christmas tree. And, we all know what happens if you get disfellowshiped for not toeing the party line:

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7784-Spiritual_shunning.html
Wow. Just wow.

Can you imagine having so-called "friends" drop you at once like that? And how much worse would it be to have your family ripped apart just because you decide you can think for yourself?

Wow again.

[Trout]

Merry Christmas to you, Non Trin.

[Topherlee]

Not afraid to answer, I just note that you are a duck and run apologist when faced with anything serious. And this thread is not about the identity of Jesus. It's about celebrating Christmas and whether it is appropriate to do it or not. Your Master may want you to celebrate it but Jesus didn't.

It is so easy for people to attack what they do not understand. Every religion from it's inception has flip-flpped on their beliefs. This is why there are so many different religions. If you do history on the Trinity, you will find that they are all tied to the RCC. The RCC wrote and holds the doctrine of the Trintiy - this is a well known fact. If you are a Baptist or from some other religion that preaches the Trinity, why are you not a Catholic? It's because at some point your elders flip-flopped on some issues.
These people condemned JW's for something as being the New Light as if they are the true channel to God. Jesus speaks of the oneness between He and his God. He also speaks the oneness in that we may be one with them. What I have learned from JW's is that they will suffer ridicule and continue to preach door to door. Isn't that how Jesus said to preach? In fact, did not Jesus go to town to town with the apostles this way?
But you are right NonTrin, this thread began in regards to Christmas and again attacks the philosophy of JW's on other issues.

Christmas is not a biblical tradition, it is a created tradition of man - mainly for the purpose of profit. Santa Claus has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. December 25th is historically incorrect regarding the date of the birth of our Lord. The nativity as portrayed today is incorrect. And yes, the celebration of Christmas can be linked to the Roman or Constatine worship of the sun-god.
Again, people refuse history and cling to traditions because this is how they were brought up. Enjoying the pleasure of their own souls even with its erroneous inception.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

-

[Sparko]

how come the JW's are so ready to point out "pagan" and "secular" practices associated with a holiday like Christmas and use that as a "reason" that Christians should not celebrate it, and turn a blind eye to all the pagan religious practices in the days they DO celebrate, like weddings, wedding anniversaries, and they seem to have no problem using the names of the calendar months and days which are all named after pagan rulers and dieties (Monday=Moon God, Thursday=Thor's day Sunday=Sun god day, etc)

[furay]

Because they're a bunch of hypocrites.

[Topherlee]

how come the JW's are so ready to point out "pagan" and "secular" practices associated with a holiday like Christmas and use that as a "reason" that Christians should not celebrate it, and turn a blind eye to all the pagan religious practices in the days they DO celebrate, like weddings, wedding anniversaries,

You cannot compare Christmas and a birthday with a wedding. A marriage is a union made in the eyes of God and an anniversary is to commemorate that union. If you celebrate it as a pagan, then it is of pagan practices. If you celebrate it as a Christian, with respect to God, then it is a Christian ceremony.

and they seem to have no problem using the names of the calendar months and days which are all named after pagan rulers and dieties (Monday=Moon God, Thursday=Thor's day Sunday=Sun god day, etc

Now, who is being irrational?

[Sparko]

You cannot compare Christmas and a birthday with a wedding. A marriage is a union made in the eyes of God and an anniversary is to commemorate that union. If you celebrate it as a pagan, then it is of pagan practices. If you celebrate it as a Christian, with respect to God, then it is a Christian ceremony.


so, Christmas is a commemoration of God sending us Jesus to give us a New Covenant. We are called the Bride of Christ. Christmas is the anniversary celebration (no it is not the exact day) of that Union of Men and God. If you celebrate it like a pagan (why would a pagan celebrate Christ anyway?) then it is of pagan practices. If we celebrate it as Christians, with respect to God then it is a Christian ceremony.

Same argument works for Christmas as it does for wedding anniversaries. And for Birthdays.



Now, who is being irrational?

Apparently YOU are. If you shun holidays because there are some pagan things associated with it, then you should be consistant and shun using the modern calendar and names of days because they are pagan.

Why don't you shun modern wedding ceremonies that use pagan symbols like wedding rings and white dresses and veils and bouquets of flowers? I hear that the JW's won't throw rice at a wedding because it is pagan, but why to they still do all the other pagan stuff associated with weddings?

you should be constant in your legalism Topherlee. If you are not consistant then you are just another hypocrite.

[Trout]

Merry Christmas, Topherlee!

[Topherlee]

so, Christmas is a commemoration of God sending us Jesus to give us a New Covenant. We are called the Bride of Christ. Christmas is the anniversary celebration (no it is not the exact day) of that Union of Men and God. If you celebrate it like a pagan (why would a pagan celebrate Christ anyway?) then it is of pagan practices. If we celebrate it as Christians, with respect to God then it is a Christian ceremony.

Same argument works for Christmas as it does for wedding anniversaries. And for Birthdays.

Wrong, the birth of Christmas and what Christmas teaches is in error.
Was Christmas created for profit? Yes.
Was Christ born on the 25th of December? No.
Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?
Were they 3 kings or 3 wise men? Neither. They were astrologers - a condemned practice by God.
Were there 3? The bible does not say how many. Could have been or could have been more.
Is Christmas of pagan origin? Hard to determine but can be linked to the worship of the sun-god.
Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? If yes, then it is a celebration created on a lie. But people refer to it as a white lie.
Does this teach your children to lie? Yes, but you will say no.
Is it the star of David? No.

Everything you have applied to Christmas is false. And in a lot of households, it's not about the birth of Christ, it's about Christmas - Santa Claus and gifts and trees and lights. So be carefull when you use the term hypocrite.

[Trout]

Wrong, the birth of Christmas and what Christmas teaches is in error.
Was Christmas created for profit? Yes.
Was Christ born on the 25th of December? No.
Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?
Were they 3 kings or 3 wise men? Neither. They were astrologers - a condemned practice by God.
Were there 3? The bible does not say how many. Could have been or could have been more.
Is Christmas of pagan origin? Hard to determine but can be linked to the worship of the sun-god.
Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? If yes, then it is a celebration created on a lie. But people refer to it as a white lie.
Does this teach your children to lie? Yes, but you will say no.
Is it the star of David? No.

Everything you have applied to Christmas is false. And in a lot of households, it's not about the birth of Christ, it's about Christmas - Santa Claus and gifts and trees and lights. So be carefull when you use the term hypocrite.

I'd be very careful, Topherlee. Santa Clause is making his list about now.

You don't want to end up with a lump of coal.

[Gabby]

Wrong, the birth of Christmas and what Christmas teaches is in error.
Was Christmas created for profit? Yes.
Was Christ born on the 25th of December? No.
Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?
Were they 3 kings or 3 wise men? Neither. They were astrologers - a condemned practice by God.
Were there 3? The bible does not say how many. Could have been or could have been more.
Is Christmas of pagan origin? Hard to determine but can be linked to the worship of the sun-god.
Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? If yes, then it is a celebration created on a lie. But people refer to it as a white lie.
Does this teach your children to lie? Yes, but you will say no.
Is it the star of David? No.

Everything you have applied to Christmas is false. And in a lot of households, it's not about the birth of Christ, it's about Christmas - Santa Claus and gifts and trees and lights. So be carefull when you use the term hypocrite.


You have no clue as to what Sparko or anyone in this thread adhears to at Christmas time. Don't assume because it will make an ..............

[Sparko]

Wrong, the birth of Christmas and what Christmas teaches is in error.
Was Christmas created for profit? Yes.
Was Christ born on the 25th of December? No.
Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?
Were they 3 kings or 3 wise men? Neither. They were astrologers - a condemned practice by God.
Were there 3? The bible does not say how many. Could have been or could have been more.
Is Christmas of pagan origin? Hard to determine but can be linked to the worship of the sun-god.
Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? If yes, then it is a celebration created on a lie. But people refer to it as a white lie.
Does this teach your children to lie? Yes, but you will say no.
Is it the star of David? No.

Everything you have applied to Christmas is false. And in a lot of households, it's not about the birth of Christ, it's about Christmas - Santa Claus and gifts and trees and lights. So be carefull when you use the term hypocrite.

No soup for you!

[Topherlee]

You have no clue as to what Sparko or anyone in this thread adhears to at Christmas time. Don't assume because it will make an ..............


If this does not pertain to you and how you celebrate Christmas, don't worry about it. The Christmas you celebrate is not the Christmas everyone else celebrates. What I am pointing out is the false teachings of Christmas.

[Topherlee]

No soup for you!


The well ran dry...

[Topherlee]

I'd be very careful, Topherlee. Santa Clause is making his list about now.

You don't want to end up with a lump of coal.

There is no Santa. I am not worried about it.

[Topherlee]

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Sparko]

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

yeah you really should READ those verses and apply them to yourself. very approprate.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Was Christmas created for profit? Yes.

Please give date for the creation of Christmas to back this.

Was Christ born on the 25th of December? No.

Irrelevant.

Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?

Are you familiar with the origins of Santa Claus? He is actually based on a bishop in church history who could have even been at the council of Nicea on the side of orthodoxy. (Yes. Santa Claus is a Trinitarian) His spirit of giving was then remembered throughout the ages.

Were they 3 kings or 3 wise men? Neither. They were astrologers - a condemned practice by God.

Actually, we don't have the number. These could have been believers though using the stars in more of an astronomic sense than an astrological sense. They could have been influenced by the writings of Daniel who would have lived there at one time and believed in a coming king. There's some interesting information on this in "The Bible as History" by Werner Keller and Edwin Yamauchi's essay on them in "Chronos Kairos Christos."

Is Christmas of pagan origin? Hard to determine but can be linked to the worship of the sun-god.

Know any Christians today who worship the sun god? Know anyone who even really believes such a concept is embodied in Christmas that doesn't have interest in this debate? Could it be because Christian truth won out over paganism?

Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? If yes, then it is a celebration created on a lie. But people refer to it as a white lie.

I don't have children as I don't have a wife yet, but I wouldn't mind telling them about the great leader from church history forever remembered through the tradition of giving, who is a Trinitarian by the way.

Does this teach your children to lie? Yes, but you will say no.

No. It teaches children to see wonder in the world really. If someone wanted to tell Junior to go upstairs and sleep so Mom and Dad could get the gifts ready, I suppose you'd complain anyway though.

Is it the star of David? No. What this has to do with anything is beyond me.

Everything you have applied to Christmas is false. And in a lot of households, it's not about the birth of Christ, it's about Christmas - Santa Claus and gifts and trees and lights. So be carefull when you use the term hypocrite.

If you're wanting to look at the origins of something to determine its goodness or not rather than the purpose behind it, let me tell you something to take back to your watchtower friends.

The origin of the word magazine (How many of those are printed by the Watchtower now?) is from an Arabic word referring to a storehouse. Arabic is the language of the Muslims and today is influenced most by the Koran. Arabic conforms to the Koran and not the other way around.

Thus, when your Watchtower publishes "magazines" they are using Muslim terminology. Interestingly, Muslims also believe God is a monad as the Watchtower does. I can only conclude then that the Watchtower borrowed from Muslims and today is secretly supporting Islam. (By the way, a Nation of Islam leader also told his followers that they should read the Watchtower. The plot thickens!)

And Topher, I'm wondering why you dropped out of all those other threads here where I posted...

[Trout]

Sung to the tune, "Santa Clause is coming to Town"

Oh You . . .better watch out
You better not try
To celebrate Christmas
I'm telling you why
Watchtower people live in your town

They visit when you're sleeping
They knock loud anyway
They leave you with their pamphlets
Even when you say, "Go away"

So you . . . listen to me
And take my advice
when they come to your home
you better act nice
Make sure you hide your tree or take it down

They'll tell you you're a Pagan
They'll bad mouth Santa Clause
They'll talk about the Sun God
And try to drag you down

So let's . . . pull down the shades
And turn out the lights
Don't answer the door
And there won't be a fight
Watchtower people live in your town.

[Sparko]

:lmbo: thats gonna be my POTD pick Trout.

[Rayado]

Just in time for the Holidays, it's the Watchtower Holiday Edition Bingo! Just fill out the accompanying card whenever you come across one of the countless tirades against Christmas for fast-paced fun the whole family can enjoy!*

*Due to the usually scatter-shot nature of accusations against Christmas, the cards usually fill up rather quickly, resulting in most games ending in thirty seconds or less. Therefore this game is perfect for those with ADHD and really short attention spans.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Then in the 4th century they decided to take the birthday of the Roman Sun god and turn it into the birthday of the Son of God, bringing all the pagan customs with it.I sometimes chuckle when people try to present this as a word play, like the Church of the 4th century used it as an advertising ploy "Worship the SON of God instead of the SUN God on the same day!"

If heard it stated this way so many times that I'm beginning to wonder how many people think that the 4th century Church spoke English, because that's the only language the word play actually works in.

[Sparko]

I sometimes chuckle when people try to present this as a word play, like the Church of the 4th century used it as an advertising ploy "Worship the SON of God instead of the SUN God on the same day!"

If heard it stated this way so many times that I'm beginning to wonder how many people think that the 4th century Church spoke English, because that's the only language the word play actually works in.

Shows how much YOU know, heathen! The Romans spoke English just like the hebrews, greeks and babylonians did! It's in the bible. And I see them talking english on all the movies and TV shows like Xena and on the History Channel.

[Sparko]

Wrong, the birth of Christmas and what Christmas teaches is in error.
Was Christmas created for profit? Yes.
Was Christ born on the 25th of December? No.
Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?
Were they 3 kings or 3 wise men? Neither. They were astrologers - a condemned practice by God.
Were there 3? The bible does not say how many. Could have been or could have been more.
Is Christmas of pagan origin? Hard to determine but can be linked to the worship of the sun-god.
Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? If yes, then it is a celebration created on a lie. But people refer to it as a white lie.
Does this teach your children to lie? Yes, but you will say no.
Is it the star of David? No.

Everything you have applied to Christmas is false. And in a lot of households, it's not about the birth of Christ, it's about Christmas - Santa Claus and gifts and trees and lights. So be carefull when you use the term hypocrite.


B.I.N.G.O.!!!!

What did I win?

[Armor of God]

B.I.N.G.O.!!!!

What did I win?


You win a goat. But watch out....he's an apostate!

[Cynic Sage]

Is Christ Santa Claus? No. Then what does Santa Claus have to do with Christ?

The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in Patara (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Patara), a village in what is now Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Bishop) of Myra (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Myra) while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to the those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships.

Under the Roman Emperor Diocletian (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Diocletian), who ruthlessly persecuted Christians, Bishop Nicholas suffered for his faith, was exiled and imprisoned. The prisons were so full of bishops, priests, and deacons, there was no room for the real criminals—murderers, thieves and robbers. After his release, Nicholas attended the Council of Nicaea (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Council+of+Nicaea) in AD 325. He died December 6, AD 343 in Myra and was buried in his cathedral church, where a unique relic (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#relic), called manna (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#manna), formed in his grave. This liquid substance was said to have healing powers which fostered the growth of devotion to Nicholas. The anniversary of his death became a day of celebration, St. Nicholas Day (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#St.+Nicholas+Day).

Through the centuries many stories and legends have been told of St. Nicholas' life and deeds. These accounts help us understand his extraordinary character and why he is so beloved and revered as protector and helper of those in need.

source. (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38)


In these days before Christmas, we can celebrate the feast of Nicholas as a time to refocus on Jesus. St. Nicholas showed us how to find Jesus in the poor, the oppressed and abused. He was devoted to charity, but charity always linked to justice.


Nicholas teaches us that faithful followers of Jesus defend those who are wrongly accused. Today we can see the face of Jesus not only in political prisoners around the world, but also in anyone who suffers from false accusation. After all, wasn't Jesus himself executed on false charges?

Finally, St. Nicholas shows us how to find Jesus through prayer and religious zeal. Let's relish the spirit of joy and charity embodied in Santa's gift-giving, but let's not forget the real St. Nicholas, who, like all the saints (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#saints), points to Jesus. That's the truest Christmas spirit.

source. (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=383)

[Topherlee]

The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in Patara (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Patara), a village in what is now Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Bishop) of Myra (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Myra) while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to the those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships.

Under the Roman Emperor Diocletian (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Diocletian), who ruthlessly persecuted Christians, Bishop Nicholas suffered for his faith, was exiled and imprisoned. The prisons were so full of bishops, priests, and deacons, there was no room for the real criminals—murderers, thieves and robbers. After his release, Nicholas attended the Council of Nicaea (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#Council+of+Nicaea) in AD 325. He died December 6, AD 343 in Myra and was buried in his cathedral church, where a unique relic (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#relic), called manna (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#manna), formed in his grave. This liquid substance was said to have healing powers which fostered the growth of devotion to Nicholas. The anniversary of his death became a day of celebration, St. Nicholas Day (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#St.+Nicholas+Day).

Through the centuries many stories and legends have been told of St. Nicholas' life and deeds. These accounts help us understand his extraordinary character and why he is so beloved and revered as protector and helper of those in need.

source. (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38)


In these days before Christmas, we can celebrate the feast of Nicholas as a time to refocus on Jesus. St. Nicholas showed us how to find Jesus in the poor, the oppressed and abused. He was devoted to charity, but charity always linked to justice.


Nicholas teaches us that faithful followers of Jesus defend those who are wrongly accused. Today we can see the face of Jesus not only in political prisoners around the world, but also in anyone who suffers from false accusation. After all, wasn't Jesus himself executed on false charges?

Finally, St. Nicholas shows us how to find Jesus through prayer and religious zeal. Let's relish the spirit of joy and charity embodied in Santa's gift-giving, but let's not forget the real St. Nicholas, who, like all the saints (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=205#saints), points to Jesus. That's the truest Christmas spirit.

source. (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=383)

Saint Nicholas the festive gift-giver
Saint Nicholas Day is a festivity for children in much of Europe related to surviving legends of the saint, and particularly his reputation as a bringer of gifts. The American and British Santa Claus derives from this festivity, the name 'Santa Claus' being a degeneration of the Dutch word Sinterklaas.

Some elements of this part of the Saint Nicholas tradition could be traced back to the Germanic god Wodan (Odin). The appearance is similar to some portrayals of this god. In the Saint Nicholas tradition in the Netherlands he rides a horse over the rooftops, and this may be derived from Odin's riding through the sky. Also his assistants, the Zwarte Pieten ('Black Peters') may be a remnant of the raven that accompanied Wodan. It may also be a reference to African slaves.

The history of the festive Saint Nicholas celebration is complex and reflects conflicts between Protestantism and Catholicism. Since Nicholas was a canonised saint, Martin Luther replaced the festival that had become associated with the Papacy with a "Christkind" (Christ child) celebration on Christmas Eve. The Nicholas celebrations still remain a part of tradition among many Protestants, albeit on a much lower scale than Christmas. The Protestant Netherlands, however, retain a much larger Saint Nicholas tradition. Many Catholics, on the other hand, have adopted Luther's Christkind.

What Christmas teaches us and our children is not what the bible portrays. We can look up the history on Christmas tradition all day and yet, it does not coincide with the bibles story of the birth of Christ. Should we continue to teach the birth of our Saviour in error? Is this is how we have been taught to teach? There is no Christmas spirit, it is only the joy you feel towards Christmas.

[Topherlee]

B.I.N.G.O.!!!!

What did I win?

It just shows how you guys are so ignorant to common sense. You make a game out of it.

[Rayado]

It just shows how you guys are so ignorant to common sense. You make a game out of it.
:lol: Are you serious? It's the only appropriate response at this point. Nick and Sparko and more than a few others have already dismissed the things the Watchtower says. This is one of those times where satire becomes the only appropriate response--after everything that we've said has been ignored.

[Sparko]

It just shows how you guys are so ignorant to common sense. You make a game out of it.

uh seems you are the one who can't see that you are using double standards, you condemn Christmas because it has some pagan practices associated with it, but you don't condemn weddings and wedding anniveraries which have even MORE pagan practices involved in them.

HYPOCIRITE.

But hey, Merry Christmas!!!

[Rayado]

Romans 14:1-4, The Topherlee Translation:

Chide him whose faith is weak, and don't withhold judgment on disputable matters--the more the better. One man, whose faith is weak, allows him to eat everything, but another man eats only vegetables. The man who does not eat everything must condemn the man who does, for God hasn't accepted him. You are to judge someone else's servant; don't you know that Jesus never commanded us to eat everything? To his own master he stands or falls, or our organization when we feel indignant about something. And the Lord is able to make us step on anyone we choose.

[Sparko]

Romans 14:1-4, The Topherlee Translation:

Chide him whose faith is weak, and don't withhold judgment on disputable matters--the more the better. One man, whose faith is weak, allows him to eat everything, but another man eats only vegetables. The man who does not eat everything must condemn the man who does, for God hasn't accepted him. You are to judge someone else's servant; don't you know that Jesus never commanded us to eat everything? To his own master he stands or falls, or our organization when we feel indignant about something. And the Lord is able to make us step on anyone we choose.

Bingo!!!

this is fun...

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hey Topher. Take a second to consider why you think you have to present this information to people. Here's the reason.

People don't realize any "pagan" connection.

Do you know why?

Answer: Christianity pounded the pagan festival into the ground.

Thus, Christmas affirms that the true God always overcomes the false god.

[Topherlee]

Hey Topher. Take a second to consider why you think you have to present this information to people. Here's the reason.

People don't realize any "pagan" connection.

Do you know why?

Answer: Christianity pounded the pagan festival into the ground.

Thus, Christmas affirms that the true God always overcomes the false god.

Christianity did not pound the pagan festival into the ground, you've just accepted it - as with Halloween, a lot of Christian churches do not see it as Halloween, they refer to it as the "Fall Festival" but keep the same traditions. You see how that works. "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy."

People do not realize the pagan connection because of the joy the Christmas season brings. They do not want to see the truth, even after the historical data behind it - because what concerns them is the pleasure this time of year brings - to please their own souls. The truth is "you can't handle the truth".

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Christianity did not pound the pagan festival into the ground, you've just accepted it - as with Halloween, a lot of Christian churches do not see it as Halloween, they refer to it as the "Fall Festival" but keep the same traditions. You see how that works. "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy."

People do not realize the pagan connection because of the joy the Christmas season brings. They do not want to see the truth, even after the historical data behind it - because what concerns them is the pleasure this time of year brings - to please their own souls. The truth is "you can't handle the truth".

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Sorry Topher. People don't realize the connection because the pagan celebration is no longer going on. Christianity won out.

Now, do you want to talk to me some about the pagan connection with your calendar? How about with weddings. Please also don't tell me you drive a car. Do you have any idea how many of those are named after pagan gods and goddesses? The whole automobile industry is obviously sold out to Satan.

[Topherlee]

Sorry Topher. People don't realize the connection because the pagan celebration is no longer going on. Christianity won out.

Now, do you want to talk to me some about the pagan connection with your calendar? How about with weddings. Please also don't tell me you drive a car. Do you have any idea how many of those are named after pagan gods and goddesses? The whole automobile industry is obviously sold out to Satan.

Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? A mythical or mystical being that lives in the North Pole. This god-like being that can be everywhere and anywhere in one night. Who like God, knows when you have been naughty or nice. That he will scorn those who are naughty by not bringing them presents.
Do you tell them that Jesus was born on Dec 25th? When the birthdate is not mentioned in the bible, but, can be tied to the celebration of the sun-god, which was celebrated on the 25th? Are you telling GOd when his Son was born?

As for calendars and automobiles, we unfortunately live by these things. The bible is clear in that we will suffer things of this world. We cannot change the world - but be for certain that this world will not last. But there are some things that can easily be dismissed. Even Jesus teaches;
Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

[Cynic Sage]

Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? A mythical or mystical being that lives in the North Pole. This god-like being that can be everywhere and anywhere in one night. Who like God, knows when you have been naughty or nice. That he will scorn those who are naughty by not bringing them presents.

I don't have any kids, but growing up. My parents made it clear that Santa didn't exist. In matter of fact while other children were sitting on a fat, red-suited winos knee in the mall. My parents were telling us of the Historical St Nicholas of Turkey, who cared for the poor and destitute as a servant of Christ.

We pretended the pop-culture Santa existed, just like how children pretend that Aliens, Talking animals, and Batman exist when they play.

If I have kids, I will raise them in a simmilar fashion.

Do you tell them that Jesus was born on Dec 25th? When the birthdate is not mentioned in the bible, but, can be tied to the celebration of the sun-god, which was celebrated on the 25th? Are you telling GOd when his Son was born?

No I don't believe or tell others that Christ was born of Dec 25th, we celebrate Christ's birthday on Dec 25th. Like when a birthday falls on Monday but you wait until Friday to have the party.

Why should I care if the date was used to celebrate a Sun-god's birthday. (Speaking of which, have you been dipping into the Achyra S lately?)

[Gabby]

I don't have any kids, but growing up. My parents made it clear that Santa didn't exist. In matter of fact while other children were sitting on a fat, red-suited winos knee in the mall. My parents were telling us of the Historical St Nicholas of Turkey, who cared for the poor and destitute as a servant of Christ.

We pretended the pop-culture Santa existed, just like how children pretend that Aliens, Talking animals, and Batman exist when they play.

If I have kids, I will raise them in a simmilar fashion.



No I don't believe or tell others that Christ was born of Dec 25th, we celebrate Christ's birthday on Dec 25th. Like when a birthday falls on Monday but you wait until Friday to have the party.

Why should I care if the date was used to celebrate a Sun-god's birthday. (Speaking of which, have you been dipping into the Achyra S lately?)


That's exactly how we do it with our kids Johnny. They have always know that the Santa Claus of today isn't real and that Dec. 25 isn't Jesus' actual birth day. The same goes for the Easter Bunny, Leprachauns, Cupid, Flying witches on brooms, Ghosts, the Great Pumpkin, Father Time and on and on.

[Topherlee]

That's exactly how we do it with our kids Johnny. They have always know that the Santa Claus of today isn't real and that Dec. 25 isn't Jesus' actual birth day. The same goes for the Easter Bunny, Leprachauns, Cupid, Flying witches on brooms, Ghosts, the Great Pumpkin, Father Time and on and on.

gabbailey, johnny,

So how are you so different from JW's? You teach against the Christmas dogma. You show your children it's error in tradition but still continue to celebrate Christmas.
Christmas doctrine, if you will, states that the birthdate of our Lord is on December 25th - not near or about, but on. Now you are saying it is observed on the 25th of December. It teaches the existence of Santa Claus and his elves. Do you not see how tradition changes?
I think it is a good thing that you teach your children correctly. But how much further will you go to make it right? I do not see a problem with observing the birth of our Lord. But I don't see a need to mix it with a secular holiday.

[Cynic Sage]

gabbailey, johnny,

So how are you so different from JW's? You teach against the Christmas dogma. You show your children it's error in tradition but still continue to celebrate Christmas.
Christmas doctrine, if you will, states that the birthdate of our Lord is on December 25th - not near or about, but on. Now you are saying it is observed on the 25th of December. It teaches the existence of Santa Claus and his elves. Do you not see how tradition changes?

"Christmas doctrine states that the birthdate of our Lord is on December 25th"? "It teaches the existance of Santa Clause and his elves"? I've never heard of Christmas "doctrine" other than Christ being born to the Virgin Mary. Nothing about the date of birth or existance of The Santa "Clause" (the Tim Allen movie? :hehe:).

[QUOTE=Topherlee]I think it is a good thing that you teach your children correctly. But how much further will you go to make it right? I do not see a problem with observing the birth of our Lord. But I don't see a need to mix it with a secular holiday.

Technically, it's a religious holiday being secularized by mainstream culture.

[Darth Executor]

Hmm,

[attachment=1]

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I love Christmas, it's my favourite time of year. We get to shove our religion down everyone's throat without backlash. To arms!

[Gabby]

gabbailey, johnny,

So how are you so different from JW's? You teach against the Christmas dogma. You show your children it's error in tradition but still continue to celebrate Christmas.
Christmas doctrine, if you will, states that the birthdate of our Lord is on December 25th - not near or about, but on. Now you are saying it is observed on the 25th of December. It teaches the existence of Santa Claus and his elves. Do you not see how tradition changes?
I think it is a good thing that you teach your children correctly. But how much further will you go to make it right? I do not see a problem with observing the birth of our Lord. But I don't see a need to mix it with a secular holiday.

A couple of years ago there was a program on tv called weird weddings. It may still be on, but I haven't seen it. Anyways, all sorts of people got married. Athiests, and wiccans, and christians, ect. There was one I watched which was a Goth wedding. It had some very dark symbolism in it, and was kinda creepy. Another one I watched was a couple who decided that they wanted to marry naked. They managed to find a christian minister to do their wedding. You really couldn't see much as the picture was basically blurred out for tv. Anyways, what I'm getting at is that there are all kinds of weddings, christian, non christian, ect, done in this world. How do YOU make sure your weddings are different from those who have paganism in it??

[Shadow Phoenix]

Do you tell your children that Santa Claus exists? A mythical or mystical being that lives in the North Pole. This god-like being that can be everywhere and anywhere in one night. Who like God, knows when you have been naughty or nice. That he will scorn those who are naughty by not bringing them presents.
Do you tell them that Jesus was born on Dec 25th? When the birthdate is not mentioned in the bible, but, can be tied to the celebration of the sun-god, which was celebrated on the 25th? Are you telling GOd when his Son was born?

Check my posts earlier. (Makes me wonder if you really read them or not.) I HAVE NO WIFE OR KIDS! Ahem. Personally, I know there is no real Santa Claus as you describe him though there was one as Johnny describes him (Who was a Trinitarian by the way) and I know that Jesus was most likely NOT born on December 25th. btw, I hope you're not saying God is omnipresent since while I as, as an orthodox Christian, believes that, JWs do not.

As for calendars and automobiles, we unfortunately live by these things. The bible is clear in that we will suffer things of this world. We cannot change the world - but be for certain that this world will not last. But there are some things that can easily be dismissed.

Actually, Paul told us to go into the meat market and eat anything without raising questions of conscience even if we bought it from a pagan temple itself. I don't have any fear of paganism because I serve the true God. False gods (Like that of the Watchtower's) don't scare me.

Even Jesus teaches;
Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

In response to this I will quote the book of Job. Job 1:1. In the Land of Uz there lived a man named Job.

Why am I quoting that? Well you gave a verse irrelevant to the discussion on paganism so I thought I'd do the same thing.

[Sparko]

Merry Christmas!!! May God Bless you on this special day!

Happy Birthday Jesus, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords and Master of All!!!

[anewlife]

Well even JW believe in a Trinity

Jesus= The Son of God
Jesus= Michael the Archangel
Jesus= Abaddon

So they do believe in a so-called Trinity.

:lol: