Define the word "myth"

[roboticist]

Many threads in this board use (and misuse) the term "myth". Most people use the term myth to refer to a story, legend, or philosophy which is untrue. (Along these lines, those who deny evolution refer to it as a "mythology"--meant to imply that it is untrue.) Others use it to refer to any ancient story, or any creation story, and a variety of other definitions.

So let's come up with a common definition of myth, shall we? In doing so, let me first say that I believe all of the following stories are mythical:

1. All religious Creation stories
2. The Gospels
3. Adam & Eve
4. Abraham Lincoln being born in a log cabin
5. George Washington's, "I cannot tell a lie" story
6. The life of Alexander the Great

Yet I believe in interpreting the Bible as literally as possible; I in fact would be considered by many to be a fundamentalist myself. :lol: How is this possible?

Because the proper definition of a myth is something to this effect: A myth is "any real or fictional story, recurring theme, or character type that appeals to the consciousness of a people by embodying its cultural ideals or by giving expression to deep, commonly felt emotions." (American Heritage Dictionary, 1989 NCE).

The Gospels, Adam & Eve, and the Biblical Creation stories are myths--they fit the above definition. But that does not mean that they are untrue. Though the story about Washington is false and about Lincoln is true, both are "hero myths".

[technomage]

Many threads in this board use (and misuse) the term "myth". Most people use the term myth to refer to a story, legend, or philosophy which is untrue. (Along these lines, those who deny evolution refer to it as a "mythology"--meant to imply that it is untrue.) Others use it to refer to any ancient story, or any creation story, and a variety of other definitions.

So let's come up with a common definition of myth, shall we? In doing so, let me first say that I believe all of the following stories are mythical:

1. All religious Creation stories
2. The Gospels
3. Adam & Eve
4. Abraham Lincoln being born in a log cabin
5. George Washington's, "I cannot tell a lie" story
6. The life of Alexander the Great

Yet I believe in interpreting the Bible as literally as possible; I in fact would be considered by many to be a fundamentalist myself. :lol: How is this possible?

Because the proper definition of a myth is something to this effect: A myth is "any real or fictional story, recurring theme, or character type that appeals to the consciousness of a people by embodying its cultural ideals or by giving expression to deep, commonly felt emotions." (American Heritage Dictionary, 1989 NCE).

The Gospels, Adam & Eve, and the Biblical Creation stories are myths--they fit the above definition. But that does not mean that they are untrue. Though the story about Washington is false and about Lincoln is true, both are "hero myths".
:bow: Thank you, Roboticist--I'd have taken three times as long to say the same thing.

[runecrow]

Words are curious things, many times dependant upon the idea being conveyed. Really, when you think about it, words are just a gibberish of noise. It's the idea that is attatched to the word that gives the word its substance. I remember a time listening to two friends discussing whether or not time was real. They talked for a couple of hours disagreeing with one another. It finally came to a point when they got around to defining the word. When they did so, they both realized that they actually agreed with one another. But by using the word 'time' without clarification, they were actually talking about two different concepts, but using the same word to describe the different concepts.

I also view the bible as myth. But, as J.R.R. Tolkien said, "Christianity is myth that is true."

[technomage]

I also view the bible as myth. But, as J.R.R. Tolkien said, "Christianity is myth that is true."


Do you realize that--at least in my case--the anhistoricity of the Bible does not detract from that truth?

[lfellows]

Many threads in this board use (and misuse) the term "myth". Most people use the term myth to refer to a story, legend, or philosophy which is untrue. (Along these lines, those who deny evolution refer to it as a "mythology"--meant to imply that it is untrue.) Others use it to refer to any ancient story, or any creation story, and a variety of other definitions.

So let's come up with a common definition of myth, shall we? In doing so, let me first say that I believe all of the following stories are mythical:

1. All religious Creation stories
2. The Gospels
3. Adam & Eve
4. Abraham Lincoln being born in a log cabin
5. George Washington's, "I cannot tell a lie" story
6. The life of Alexander the Great

Yet I believe in interpreting the Bible as literally as possible; I in fact would be considered by many to be a fundamentalist myself. :lol: How is this possible?

Because the proper definition of a myth is something to this effect: A myth is "any real or fictional story, recurring theme, or character type that appeals to the consciousness of a people by embodying its cultural ideals or by giving expression to deep, commonly felt emotions." (American Heritage Dictionary, 1989 NCE).

The Gospels, Adam & Eve, and the Biblical Creation stories are myths--they fit the above definition. But that does not mean that they are untrue. Though the story about Washington is false and about Lincoln is true, both are "hero myths".

myth
n.



A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.

A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth” (Leon Wolff).
Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=ahd4): The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Seems to be imprecise. As for my part, I am only familiar with myth being used in reference to stories that, on their face, were untrue. For instance, the Cherokee Indians have a story concerning the formation of the Milky Way that claims a large dog dribbling corn meal formed it. Nice story, but I doubt you will find many who would have a problem discerning whether or not it really answered the question of how the Milky Way was formed.

[Sheepdog]

exactly. somewhere else on TWeb someone commented on a C.S. Lewis where he apparently said that the Gospel stories are myth, but were not only that, they were true.

I think the best scholastic meaning would simply be a story that has special significance to a group of people. For instance, i consider the movie Walking Tall to be mythical (and not because it has the Rock in it) because the underlying theme of standing up for yourself and your community. yet, it's based on a true story.

"myth" only takes on a implication of falsity if it is used pejoratively, which often happens here and elsewhere.

[NeilUnreal]

"Myth" is something like Picasso's definition of art:

"Art is a lie that tells us the truth."

As noted, a myth may or may not be a lie, but -- like art -- its real importance is in the truth it conveys. Whether factual or not, a story becomes a myth when it conveys a truth that cannot be imparted by simple fact alone.

-Neil

[roboticist]

Thanks all.

So it sounds like the majority of us here would agree to use the term "myth" to not necessarily imply that the story involved is untrue (even if the American Heritage Dictionary appears to have changed their minds between the time of the edition on my desk and the edition quoted above.) As runecrow pointed out, agreeing on terminology is extremely important. I'd advise everyone that whenever someone uses the term "myth" in these discussions in the future, we refer them to this thread. That may save a whole lot of arguing.

[shunyadragon]

Thanks all.

So it sounds like the majority of us here would agree to use the term "myth" to not necessarily imply that the story involved is untrue (even if the American Heritage Dictionary appears to have changed their minds between the time of the edition on my desk and the edition quoted above.) As runecrow pointed out, agreeing on terminology is extremely important. I'd advise everyone that whenever someone uses the term "myth" in these discussions in the future, we refer them to this thread. That may save a whole lot of arguing.

I do not think this clears the muddy water much, except to define your use of the word. I use the word to denote an ancient story that does indeed contain both truth and fiction, and usually has supernatural or miraculous events that would not be considered true. Mythical has a way of being greater than the truth that a story contains, and should not be equated as being true as such. I would consider the Bible to be a collection of stories with a mythical theme based around historical facts. If you are more of a fundimentalist, then it would not be advisable to describe the Bible as mythical.