Time to get fundamental

[wakwak]

Numbers 18: But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

It is very clear to me gods divine book the bible, thats the book of "ultimate moral authority", clearly states we should all be getting a little bonus this christmas in the form of virgin women from Iraq.

[wakwak]

Wow found this sweat gem in Leviticus:

17 And he shall cleave it (a pigeon) with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

The Lord almighty, great god of everything, the ultimate perfect being.... did you know he likes burnt pigeon?

How about this christmas we all forego our turkey, duck, ham or whatever and just char a pigeon for good ole god?

Wakwak, Back to back posts are not allowed, unless your responding to different posts. In the interest of discussion, please limit adding additional information until members have time to respond. Thank you.

[norwegen]

How about this christmas we all forego our turkey, duck, ham or whatever and just char a pigeon for good ole god?Feel free, waky. We won't stop you.

[wakwak]

Ok so it's really, really, really bad to be a homo cause the ONE AND ONLY true word of the lord is the bible and the bible say homo's are bad.... how about this in 1st Corinthians 14:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

That's right women shut up when yer in church. oh and any woman wishing to learn ANY THING can only ask it from her husband. Obiviously unwed or widowed women are going to have a hard time to learn anything.

Now it's a good thing we got this bible to teach us all how god wants us to behave!

[wakwak]

Feel free, waky. We won't stop you.

There are no pigeons where i'm from.... I guess i'm going to hell (darn why does god only like things from a small area around the jordan river? you would think he'd put pigeons everywhere so we could all praise him with chared carcases.)

How about you? going to char that pigeon to please god? you do know he is your ultimate authority to morality? A small sacrafice to please him should be in order. I would think it's YOUR DUTY!

[wraizyr]

Hey wakwak, feel free to continue wallowing in the filthy pit of your own ignorance. Remember, as long as your head is in the sand, you won't have to bother with all that icky stuff like understanding a text in it's proper context. :thumb:

Cheers,
wraizyr

[wakwak]

Numbers is a pretty obivious story of moses in the wilderness. Chapter 31 is about the war with the midianites. The first half of the chapter is about the conquest, the ladder half about the booty.

In context the verse condones the raping of virgin women as the spoils of war. pretty plain and simple, unless you have your head in the sand :lol:

[Philetus]

Numbers is a pretty obivious story of moses in the wilderness. Chapter 31 is about the war with the midianites. The first half of the chapter is about the conquest, the ladder half about the booty.

In context the verse condones the raping of virgin women as the spoils of war. pretty plain and simple, unless you have your head in the sand :lol:
Hey, I"m just learning my way around in this Tweb. Makes me want to offer up a bird or two. Don't get lost in the history, wakwak ... get current! Read about the last big sacrafice that God made/received in the new testament.
Philetus

[jason]

In context the verse condones the raping of virgin women as the spoils of war. pretty plain and simple, unless you have your head in the sand :lol:
Actually it doens't, but clearly you are too stupid to realise this.

Jason

[shunyadragon]

Hey, I"m just learning my way around in this Tweb. Makes me want to offer up a bird or two. Don't get lost in the history, wakwak ... get current! Read about the last big sacrafice that God made/received in the new testament.
Philetus

Wacky wakwak appears to be on the verge of a let down, when the usual millions of turkeys give their lives for the sins and glutiny of America this year, the next, and the next for the foreseeable future. I do not see many pigeons stepping forward, except maybe George Bush for on token turkey, to take the axe so the turkey may go free. But, aha . . . then again his line is no more unreasonable than the standard fare in the pew today.:eek:

[Philetus]

Wacky wakwak appears to be on the verge of a let down, when the usual millions of turkeys give their lives for the sins and glutiny of America this year, the next, and the next for the foreseeable future. I do not see many pigeons stepping forward, except maybe George Bush for on token turkey, to take the axe so the turkey may go free. But, aha . . . then again his line is no more unreasonable than the standard fare in the pew today.

Great line, shunyadragon! Exactly the kind of bird I had in mind. The church's line seems to be "a butt in the pew is worth 10 in the street." But, not everyone who takes Jesus seriously is pewed and stewed. {Will I get potted by TWEB for this one?}
:whack:
Philetus

[sambo]

Hey Jason and Philetus,

I know it just must really tick you off that your holy book is chock full of passages where God or the holy leaders command people to kill, rape and pillage.

I, for one, am so glad that I didn't subsribe to this wacky religion before reading the fine print! But I do feel sorry for your plight. Now you must somehow justify the raping of virgins and killing of innocents.

[Philetus]

sambo,

Not sure who's to blame for the rape and killing, but as a sinner saved by grace, sometimes it does get to be a drag trying to relate to a lost world that seems obsessed with finding loop holes in the fine print and missing the big picture. I guess if we were living under the Old Covenant Numbers 18 might apply. But, you are not addressing a Hebrew. You assume the reference applys to Christian scripture. Where did you get that notion?

Philetus

[shunyadragon]

Hey Jason and Philetus,

I know it just must really tick you off that your holy book is chock full of passages where God or the holy leaders command people to kill, rape and pillage.

I, for one, am so glad that I didn't subsribe to this wacky religion before reading the fine print! But I do feel sorry for your plight. Now you must somehow justify the raping of virgins and killing of innocents.

I would not subscribe to that wacky religion either, and I believe in God. The simplist explanation is themost obious one everyone seems to miss, human nature. Now, 100 years ago, 500 years ago or 3000 years ago it is fairly common for people to engage i such activities and say,(A) "God told me to do it!", (B) I am doing it in the name of God!", (C) I am following the instructions written in God's Book."

This is not rocket science. People take the human nature out of the Bible and make everybody obediant God puppets, or the bad guys that get eaten by bears.

[shunyadragon]

Hey Jason and Philetus,

I know it just must really tick you off that your holy book is chock full of passages where God or the holy leaders command people to kill, rape and pillage.

I, for one, am so glad that I didn't subsribe to this wacky religion before reading the fine print! But I do feel sorry for your plight. Now you must somehow justify the raping of virgins and killing of innocents.

I would not subscribe to that wacky religion either, and I believe in God. The simplist explanation is themost obious one everyone seems to miss, human nature. Now, 100 years ago, 500 years ago or 3000 years ago it is fairly common for people to engage i such activities and say,(A) "God told me to do it!", (B) I am doing it in the name of God!", (C) I am following the instructions written in God's Book."

This is not rocket science. People take the human nature out of the Bible and make everybody obediant God puppets, or the bad guys that get eaten by bears on God's orders.

[jason]

Hey Jason and Philetus,

I know it just must really tick you off that your holy book is chock full of passages where God or the holy leaders command people to kill, rape and pillage.

I, for one, am so glad that I didn't subsribe to this wacky religion before reading the fine print! But I do feel sorry for your plight. Now you must somehow justify the raping of virgins and killing of innocents.
Except neither is true if you study the context and dig into who was being killed why, and the nature of the virgins themselves.

But I know, I know, that requires some study and some thought and it is much easier just to make pronoucements like you have made in complete ignorance.

Though I don't see why you expect anybody to this sort of mental masturbation you are indulging in seriously. When you want to do something other than show off your ignorance someone will be here to discuss the topic with you. Until then ...

Jason

[shunyadragon]

Except neither is true if you study the context and dig into who was being killed why, and the nature of the virgins themselves.

But I know, I know, that requires some study and some thought and it is much easier just to make pronoucements like you have made in complete ignorance.

Though I don't see why you expect anybody to this sort of mental masturbation you are indulging in seriously. When you want to do something other than show off your ignorance someone will be here to discuss the topic with you. Until then ...

Jason

What and who determines the nature of the people being slaughter, and ah . . . the animals too. Do you trust the ethnocentric denigration by the Hebrew tribe against other tribes on prima facie say so of the OT. Have you looked deeper into the archeological evidence that would demonstrate this, and that would 'require some study', other than accepting the testimony of the scripture? Is there any extra-Biblical evidence that would support you assertion concerning the evil nature of these 'other' tribes. The extra-biblical evidence I found was that all the relatively primative tribes in region varied little in their behavior, and all denigrated the 'others' as being inferior, evil lesser creatures. The only other significant thing I found was that the coastal people in the more mesic climate raised and ate pigs, which may put them into a rather despicable evil catagory for a people who consider this dirty habit a violation of God's law.

What further in depth academic study outside the Bible would you recommend that would solve this ignorance problem.

[Philetus]

Gotta give it to the dragon on that one.

shunyadragon, often you make statements like the following:

shunyadragon: People take the human nature out of the Bible and make everybody obedient God puppets, or the bad guys that get eaten by bears on God's orders.

I think i hear you, but could you flesh it out a little for me? What do you mean, "take the human nature out of the Bible?"

Are you saying that not everything that God gets blamed for in the OT is necessarily God's fault? If so I tend to agree ... risking getting eaten by Christian bears who may interpret my tentative agreement as a discrediting of the 'infallibility' of the bible.

Risking a war by sleeping hibernating with the enemy,
Philetus

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Wakwak. Can you tell me some important info here?

The historical context in more than just little blurbs?
The context of the surrounding passage.
The context of the surrounding book.
The context of the Bible as a whole?

You see, you state these things like Christians don't read their Bibles. This might be a shock, but some of us actually do and when we come to these passages, we do this weird little thing called "studying" where we see the historical context and how it fits into the larger picture of Scripture.

I'll be waiting.

[shunyadragon]

Gotta give it to the dragon on that one.

shunyadragon, often you make statements like the following:


I think i hear you, but could you flesh it out a little for me? What do you mean, "take the human nature out of the Bible?"

Are you saying that not everything that God gets blamed for in the OT is necessarily God's fault? If so I tend to agree ... risking getting eaten by Christian bears who may interpret my tentative agreement as a discrediting of the 'infallibility' of the bible.

Risking a war by sleeping hibernating with the enemy,
Philetus

I will have to think on this one for the night, but no God is not the one giving the orders, and God is not responsible.

Careful consorting with the enemy is the slippery slope to . . . . ahhhhhh!

[Philetus]

I will have to think on this one for the night, but no God is not the one giving the orders, and God is not responsible.

Careful consorting with the enemy is the slippery slope to . . . . ahhhhhh!


Morning has broken, the beach is far behind ... I'll risk it.

I want to know in more detail just where you stand on the bible and God's responsibility in the actions taken by people who claim "God told me to do it." Or even, "the devil made me do it." Is there any position one can hold, specifically in reference to the bible that informs 'true religion'? What do you mean in your references to the human nature in the bible? Is there any divine nature at all disclosed in the bible? I’m wondering if in your view there is any common ground here or if there are any specifics that may help to sort out this question on Numbers.

How slippery is the slope?
Philetus

[shunyadragon]

Morning has broken, the beach is far behind ... I'll risk it.

I want to know in more detail just where you stand on the bible and God's responsibility in the actions taken by people who claim "God told me to do it." Or even, "the devil made me do it." Is there any position one can hold, specifically in reference to the bible that informs 'true religion'? What do you mean in your references to the human nature in the bible? Is there any divine nature at all disclosed in the bible? I’m wondering if in your view there is any common ground here or if there are any specifics that may help to sort out this question on Numbers.

How slippery is the slope?
Philetus

First, I loved to ski while living in WV, and slippery slopes are fun. Not too icey and hard, but slippery.

Second, the reason I had to sleep on it is your asking a complicated question that most people are not willing to accept the simple answer. 'Time to get fundimental' is an interesting title that I would approach in a different manner that the thread author likely intended. It is difficult if not impossible to answer your questions specifically with putting them in perspective of the big picture.

Third, I would like to introduce this by relating my experiences growing up. Like many Twebbers I went to church and Sunday school and learned the worldview of Christianity. But as I went to school the world prtrayed by science and history began to loom larger and larger, and the Bible and Christianity began to shrink. The bottom line of reality dawned on me, to get fundimental I had to take into account the bigger picture. Like many as a young idealist I felt somebody was fibbing big time, and it was worse that the Santa Clause myth. Some faced with this paradox, chuck the bible out the window, and simplify their worldview with matter of fact science and secular history 'as it is', and they become atheists and agnostics. I was not willing to take this simplistic route of the either/or must be true and the others are just demented liers, as presented to me by both sides. As time passed their 'humanness' loomed larger and larger, and my judgemental view faded, and picture of the diverse humanity trying to explain a changing world emerged.

I was influenced by Zen Buddhism as a teen ager by Japanese landscape gardener that I worked with, and the avatar picture is from one of my gardens. He taught a very human matter of fact world 'as it is'. I did not become Zen Buddhist, but this view had a overwhelming impact on life. I could no longer look at the world as either/or, black and white, good and evil.

When I decided not to chuck the Bible I was still faced with how to deal with it, as well as all the other scriptures of the world. Slowly through studying history, scriptures, and scholars, very human picture emerged where the genre, and nature of the scripture reflected the culture and time the people lived.

Where then does God come into the picture, well along with these gaps that grew into a chasms of huge dimensions, was the obvious fact that in recent history God is silent as to any obvious hands-on role as portrayed in the Bible. The biggest problem was the God of the Bible used natural calamities to punish disobedience and defiance in humans, and in somewhat an arbitray nature, as in Bears doing there thing on children and youth. The faithful have put up manyarguments for Gods involvement in the modern world and the apparent changes, but these never have satisfactorally addressed the matter of fact nature of our world as natural and not miraculous. The age of the dragons has passed. Some found the easy solution to the silence as there is no evidence that God exists, and became atheists or agnostics. In balancing the two sides the atheist/agnostic case grew stronger with time. My best response was if God exists what is the nature of God. The answer was God is a very natural God.

Have to go, all continue with your questions specifically in the next post, but they have in reality all ready been answered. You simply have to just look out the window.

[shunyadragon]

I want to know in more detail just where you stand on the bible and God's responsibility in the actions taken by people who claim "God told me to do it." Or even, "the devil made me do it."

This theme of claiming Divine instruction, guidance, intervention, prophecy, blame, and cause and effect occurs universally in human history. To evaluate these claims I feel it is wise to put them in perpective of all claims and the results, and given the fallible nature of humanity.


Is there any position one can hold, specifically in reference to the bible that informs 'true religion'?

I believe the claim that the Bible 'informs true religion', often with a capital 'T' and a ubiquitous tm, cannot be substantiated in the Bible or the history of the Bible. The only thing that can be objectively claimed is that the Bible reflects the religious beliefs of the people, and the evolution of those beliefs in the Middle East over a period of time. It is a very unique compilation of books that lacks a continuity and coherence in history, with some humongous gaps, that would in reality make it problematic to define it as 'one book' that 'informs true religion'.

The Bible informs us of the writers worldview of their relationship to God in their place and time in history. There is indeed a Divine dimension to the relationship of these people in their belief in God, but there is also a fallible human one too. We see this in their doubts, wavering faith and uncertainties, of even the greatest, such as Moses, Solomon and David, in the context of their world. They described what they called miraculous and divine in the context of a human perspective.


What do you mean in your references to the human nature in the bible? Is there any divine nature at all disclosed in the bible?

The Divine nature of revelation passes through the human filter of the revealed word of God.

The triumph of the Jewish people over time their wavering faith, humanness, arrogance, and other distinctly problematic human qualities is an example of a divine nature of the Bible.

In one of my better threads I put Samuel in a more human context as a prophet and intermediary between God and Saul. It was interesting and I feel presented a more human view of an important figure in the Bible, that presents a distinctly problematic situation in terms of Samuel being literally a spokesman for God revealing the inerrant Divine prophecies and Word of God. I can refer this thread for you if it is of interest.

Another good example is Moses and the Laws. I believe Moses was in fact a prophet and messiah revealing the word of God for humanity at that time, but apparently the lawyers also may have added their human touch, and we ended up with quite an in volved addenda to version we have.



I’m wondering if in your view there is any common ground here or if there are any specifics that may help to sort out this question on Numbers.

The question goes beyond more than just Numbers, It is a matter of the context of the whole Bible. It may help if you were more specific. It gets to be quite a problem if we just take prima facie what was said in the name of God in the OT as what God had said and ordered.

My view of a 'time to get fundimental' is a 'time to get real'.