Does Postmil have to be optimistic?

[GrayPilgrim]

I ask this because I know that Jonathan Edwards, a postmillenialist, actually held to a more pessimistic philosophy of history than most postmils do, and I was wodnering if there were any others who held that view here?

[Lizard]

I never really gave it much thought. Good question.

However, it is easier IMHO to be an optimistic postmil, than an optimistic premil.

My mother could be a pessimist about winning the lottery.

[Darth Xena]

There are various levels of optimism within postmill thought, and a pessimistic amill is well, basically, an amill. I find it impossible to be a pessimistic postmill preterist though.

[Hitch]

Prov 10:25
25 As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
(KJV)

Prov 10:24
24 The fear of the wicked, it shall come upon him: but the desire of the righteous shall be granted.
(KJV)

Prov 11:21
21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
(KJV)

Prov 11:28
28 He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.
(KJV)

Prov 15:6
6 In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.
(KJV)

Prov 18:10
10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.
(KJV)

Prov 28:28
28 When the wicked rise, men hide themselves: but when they perish, the righteous increase.
(KJV)

Do we really believe what the Scriptures teach?

Take care

Hitch

[smilax]

Matthew xxiv, 10-12: "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

II Thessalonians ii, 11: "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

II Timothy iii, 13: "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

II Timothy iv, 3: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

I John ii, 18: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

I never really understood the argument that postmillennialism is better because it is optimistic. Man's hopeless condition is not optimistic. The road to salvation being narrow is not optimistic. And everlasting hell for those who reject is not optimistic. Fortunately, I don't think anyone here has used optimism to "prove" postmillennialism.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Smilax:

And all of those verses refer to conditions in the first century, not to the end of this age. And no optism doesn't prove postmill.... quite the opposite, postmill proves optimism. Christ did not give us Mission Impossible in the Great Commission.

[smilax]

Dee Dee Warren:
And all of those verses refer to conditions in the first century, not to the end of this age.I agree with this in terms of direct fulfillment, but principle-wise, they are just as true today. There really isn't a contradiction with the pessimistic view, though: the bad get worse, but the good take the victory.Christ did not give us Mission Impossible in the Great Commission.Couldn't agree more!

[Hitch]

Its always going to come down to whether God rewards covenant breaking or covenant keeping in history.

Of course the answer is both, one positively the other negatively.


Job 36:7-11
7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted.
8 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction;
9 Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded.
10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(KJV)



(KJV)

Ps 34:16
16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
(KJV)



This glass is more than 'half full' way more.


Hitch

[GrayPilgrim]

So will the Kingdom be set up gradually by the spread of the Gospel or by the direct unmediated intervention of God into a world mired by sin? And does there necessarily need to be a distinction that negates the one over the other?

[Darth Xena]

I am not sure I understand the question GP. If I do understand it, no, there does not need to be a distinction of one over the other, but it is a cooperative agency.

[Hitch]

GrayPilgrim:
So will the Kingdom be set up gradually by the spread of the Gospel or by the direct unmediated intervention of God into a world mired by sin? And does there necessarily need to be a distinction that negates the one over the other? Yup. the picture is simple enough.

Adam falls and dies.

Jesus brings Resurrection.

The dark and gloomy is overturned forever and absolutely as death is defeared by Resurrection. Thsi demonstrated the differences between the two views and took place in history as real events.

The only question being; Which is more powerful in history, the Fall or the Resurrection?


take care

Hitch