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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Infinitely lazy God?
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostAre you alive?
"If one holds, as D. M. Armstrong does, that reality is exhausted by the space-time system, then it follows straightaway that there is no God as Dale and I are using 'God.'" - Bill Vallicella [who thinks there is an ‘absolute’ existence beyond what is obvious but like all mystics he has absolutely no idea what it is.] He dreams of knowing the unseen order, he has mystical experiences but he does not understand himself. And he does not appreciate the power of science to get to grips with his quest – just not in his toolbox. And if you don’t use the correct tools you will not find the answers. He thinks spiritual development is important – actually, it is the wrong path to understanding [if you are interested in truth as he claims] and this has been proved many times. Vallicella worships ignorance.Last edited by firstfloor; 05-03-2015, 05:24 AM.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostAre you alive?
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostWhat, would you say, is it that the Mystic searches for?
I had not heard of Bill Vallicella until now. Thanks to MaxVel for that.
If there was no religion, they would find a door and worship it.
I am an theist, at present a Baha'i with Buddhist leanings and everything is in pencil. I believes in a universal apophatic Source some call God(s). I will rag on all old world God(s) based on an egocentric ancient view, particularly those that believe in the King in the sky with his court. Actually, I am a skeptic of all world views including my own.
God is not a chess player with the white pieces,
God is the sea and we are the fishes.
Are we in need of some paint stripper?Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-03-2015, 08:12 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf this is the best you have to offer, your God is in trouble. Most people in the world live, die and suffer in poor situations and circumstances they have no control over. Actually by the evidence nature takes care of things from beginning to endings without any apparent Divine intervention.
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Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
If there was no religion, they would find a door and worship it.
I am an theist, at present a Baha'i with Buddhist leanings and everything is in pencil. I believes in a universal apophatic Source some call God(s). I will rag on all old world God(s) based on an egocentric ancient view, particularly those that believe in the King in the sky with his court. Actually, I am a skeptic of all world views including my own.
God is not a chess player with the white pieces,
God is the sea and we are the fishes.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostGod is the sea and we are the fishes.
You probably know this one.
"We do not know what God is. God Himself does not know what He is because He is not anything. Literally God is not, because He transcends being." - Johannes Scotus Eriugena
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTrue, but not the point!
If there was no religion, they would find a door and worship it.
I am an theist, at present a Baha'i with Buddhist leanings and everything is in pencil. I believes in a universal apophatic Source some call God(s). I will rag on all old world God(s) based on an egocentric ancient view, particularly those that believe in the King in the sky with his court. Actually, I am a skeptic of all world views including my own.
God is not a chess player with the white pieces,
God is the sea and we are the fishes.
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Originally posted by Darth Ovious View PostBut you actually agree with Maxvel on this one point. God is to be worshiped because you are alive and he is the creator. That's all I'm pointing out. I would have thought that this is a topic you would want to defend but obviously from your Baha'i faith point of view. However you say that Maxvel's position is weak albeit it should also be your own position.
You do not get anywhere in a dialogue with accusations of 'Ignorant drivel,' when your own argument is logically egocentric and weak.
In reality it is worse then weak to justify the existence of God, because we are alive. The appeal to the universal in the Baha'i view in response to simplistic egocentric views and individual ancient world views is the heart of my arguments over time. The mindless simplistic vindictive attacks on atheism fail miserable. I have debated atheists in the past beyond simplistic confrontations and name calling exercises. I do not agree with atheists, but based on the evidence they have a better argument rom the universal perspective than individual egocentric theistic ancient worldviews that do not address the universal in time and space.
If you wish to read more on my world view as a Baha'i see the appropriate thread.Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-03-2015, 08:55 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf this is the best you have to offer, your God is in trouble. Most people in the world live, die and suffer in poor situations and circumstances they have no control over. Actually by the evidence nature takes care of things from beginning to endings without any apparent Divine intervention.
What naivety you show to think that anything we could say, do, think or believe would somehow put God in trouble. You rail against 'egocentric old world views' of God, yet you yourself insist on clinging to them, and projecting your stale view of God onto others beliefs. The God I believe in is far beyond your pettiness. You claim to be a skeptic, but you won't let God choose how He reveals Himself. You put God in your box, and won't allow Him to come up close and personal with you - you hold Him away, at arm's length. A remote, impersonal, 'incomprehensible' God is more comfortable and convenient for you - He can't make claims on your life and lifestyle. Why aren't you skeptical of that view of God, too?
You need to read Aquinas, and modern presentations of his arguments, too. See the Fifth Way, and God as pure act - and what follows from that about God's nature.Last edited by MaxVel; 05-03-2015, 09:19 AM....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostLike seer, my agreement with Maxvel ends in the view that we are all theists.
You do not get anywhere in a dialogue with accusations of 'Ignorant drivel,' when your own argument is logically egocentric and weak.
Originally posted by firstfloor View Post. If that space is not infinite then God is not infinite and He must have been created. If that space is infinite then God is infinitely lazy. OR, this world and you in particular is the infinitely least important thing on His agenda.
What I notice about the world is that God, at the very best, is not a hard worker. [Christians will excuse infinite God-idleness] What are we supposed to be praising Him for exactly?Originally posted by MaxVel View PostAre you alive?
In reality it is worse then weak to justify the existence of God, because we are alive.
The appeal to the universal in the Baha'i view in response to simplistic egocentric views and individual ancient world views is the heart of my arguments over time. The mindless simplistic vindictive attacks on atheism fail miserable. I have debated atheists in the past beyond simplistic confrontations and name calling exercises. I do not agree with atheists, but based on the evidence they have a better argument rom the universal perspective than individual egocentric theistic ancient worldviews that do not address the universal in time and space.
If you wish to read more on my world view as a Baha'i see the appropriate thread.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostYou need to read Aquinas, and modern presentations of his arguments, too. See the Fifth Way, and God as pure act - and what follows from that about God's nature.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAquinas does not represent modern arguments for the existence of God. I consider them too anthropomorphic and self justified arguments and mostly too circular assuming God exists in the beginning.
Originally posted by wikipedia
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