Did you know that all our founding fathers are now LDS?

[Exmo-Robertson]

According to church leaders, all of the founding fathers are now baptized Mormons.


"Shortly after President Spencer W. Kimball became President of the Church, he assigned me [Elder Mark E. Peterson] to go into the vault of the St. George Temple and check the early records. As I did so, I realized the fulfillment of a dream I had had ever since learning of the visit of the Founding Fathers to the St. George Temple. I saw with mine own eyes the record of the work which was done for the Founding Fathers of this great nation, beginning with George Washington. Think of it, the Founding Fathers of this nation, those great men, appeared within those sacred walls and had their vicarious work done for them."

"Church President Wilford Woodruff spoke of it in these words: "Before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, 'You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to in and were faithful to God.' These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence and they waited on me for two days and two nights. I straightway went into the baptismal fond and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men." (Journal of Discourses Vol. 19, p.229)

"These noble spirits came there with divine permission - evidence that this work of salvation goes forward on both sides of the veil. At a later conference, in April 1898, after he became President of the Church, President Woodruff declared that "those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits . [and] were inspired of the Lord."
(In Conference Report, April 1898, p. 89)"

"But we honor more than those who brought forth the Constitution. We honor the Lord, who revealed it. God himself has borne witness to the fact that He is please with the final product of the work of these great patriots."
- Elder Mark E. Peterson's book "The Great Prologue"

See: http://www.stgeorgetemplevisitorscenter.org/temple-sg/woodruff.html

[yxboom]

Wow that is interesting.

[T.J. Maxx]

The title of this thread is misleading since no LDS would ever claim this to be true. To assume baptism for the dead automatically means conversion wouldn't be such a bad thing if Dana were not claiming to be ex-Mormon, which presumably means he knows what he is talking about as a former LDS. Latter-day Saints believe everyone who has died will be eventually baptized, but this doesn't mean everyone eventually becomes LDS.

Being baptized when you're dead is no more becoming LDS than opening a door is the same thing as walking walking through it. This is the main purpose for Baptisms for the Dead. Opening a door.

[Exmo-Robertson]

Today @ 10:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140279#post140279)
T.J. Maxx:

The title of this thread is misleading since no LDS would ever claim this to be true. To assume baptism for the dead automatically means conversion wouldn't be such a bad thing if Dana were not claiming to be ex-Mormon, which presumably means he knows what he is talking about as a former LDS. Latter-day Saints believe everyone who has died will be eventually baptized, but this doesn't mean everyone eventually becomes LDS.

Your ability to comprehend what you read leaves much to be desired. The quotes which came from an "official" web site of the LDS Church, The Saint George Visitor Center at: http://www.stgeorgetemplevisitorscenter.org/ clearly shows that your claim that "no LDS would ever claim this to be true" is patently wrong because not only does a Mormon claim this to be true, but a Mormon Prophet claims this to be true. The prophet said: "Before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, 'You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to in and were faithful to God.' These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence and they waited on me for two days and two nights. I straightway went into the baptismal fond and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men."

T.J. just because you don't like somebody doesn't mean they aren't telling the truth.

Today @ 10:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140279#post140279)
T.J. Maxx:

Being baptized when you're dead is no more becoming LDS than opening a door is the same thing as walking walking through it. This is the main purpose for Baptisms for the Dead. Opening a door.

Since I wasn't making any claims concerning all baptisms for the dead I don't feel a need to respond to this statement. A few years back though there was problems for the LDS Church when it was discovered that baptism for the dead was being performed for the victims of the holocaust. Their families were outraged over this.

[T.J. Maxx]

Still waiting for a comment that says they are LDS. This is almost as weak as the God screwed Mary "evidence." LDS believe that ALL DEAD SOULS will sit around and wait for this work to be done for them, but this doesn't mean they believe the entire realm of the dead is LDS. This comment from Woodruff should be no big surprise, but it is one thing to say they are waiting for it and it is another to say they accepted it, and it is even another thing entirely to say "they are LDS."

Find something from an LDS source that explicitly said this within the past 100 years ok? If this is truly what was conveyed in this instance then we would expect the same to exist in Mormon folklore. LDS are extremely prideful in famous Mormons like Marriott and Steve Young, so I would imagine they'd go crazy if they really thought the founding fathers were Mormon to.

And I can only wonder what purpose your thread topic has anyway. I wonder what this has to do with discussing LDS "doctrine." Seems to be just another post aimed at the knee caps.

And I don't dislike you since I don't even know you. Keep the "poor me" syndrome to yourself. I dislike your approach towards Mormons and I think you have some serious psychological issues, but I judge the truthfulness of your comments on their own merit.

[Exmo-Robertson]

Yesterday @ 11:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140359#post140359)
T.J. Maxx:

Still waiting for a comment that says they are LDS. This is almost as weak as the God screwed Mary "evidence." LDS believe that ALL DEAD SOULS will sit around and wait for this work to be done for them, but this doesn't mean they believe the entire realm of the dead is LDS. This comment from Woodruff should be no big surprise, but it is one thing to say they are waiting for it and it is another to say they accepted it, and it is even another thing entirely to say "they are LDS."

So why would the founding fathers appear to Wilson if their intent wasn't to join the LDS Church? The reason the LDS do temple work for the dead is so they(the dead) can claim membership in the church and go to the celestrial kingdom. Wilson said: "Another thing I am going to say here, because I have a right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them." For what reason would they do that for unless it was to add their names to the membership rolls?

Yesterday @ 11:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140359#post140359)
T.J. Maxx:

Find something from an LDS source that explicitly said this within the past 100 years ok? If this is truly what was conveyed in this instance then we would expect the same to exist in Mormon folklore. LDS are extremely prideful in famous Mormons like Marriott and Steve Young, so I would imagine they'd go crazy if they really thought the founding fathers were Mormon to.

I was quoting from a current apostle of the LDS church, Mark E. Peterson. That certainly meets your requirement of the last 100 years and I also posted a link from an "official" web site of the LDS Church ( a web site more official then Kevin's). That is today.

Yesterday @ 11:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140359#post140359)
T.J. Maxx:

And I can only wonder what purpose your thread topic has anyway. I wonder what this has to do with discussing LDS "doctrine." Seems to be just another post aimed at the knee caps.

Wonder all you want, again your opinion is your opinion and has nothing to do with facts.

Yesterday @ 11:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140359#post140359)
T.J. Maxx:

And I don't dislike you since I don't even know you. Keep the "poor me" syndrome to yourself. I dislike your approach towards Mormons and I think you have some serious psychological issues, but I judge the truthfulness of your comments on their own merit.

The quotes speak for themselves for those who are not blinded by friendships or memberships.

[T.J. Maxx]

Dana: So why would the founding fathers appear to Wilson if their intent wasn't to join the LDS Church?

Nathan: Responding to questions with questions don't provide answers, only evidence that you are fumbling. The answer to this question, whatever it may be, will not change the fact that the LDS leaders did not say these men were now LDS.

Dana: The reason the LDS do temple work for the dead is so they(the dead) can claim membership in the church and go to the celestrial kingdom.

No there is no "membership" in a Church in the hereafter. Do you really think Mormons will be calling themselves Mormons or Latter-day Saints when in heaven? This is a terrestrial title that pertains to this life. After this life there is only salvation.

Dana: For what reason would they do that for unless it was to add their names to the membership rolls?

Nathan: Again, more questions instead of answers. Show me one place where he said these men were now LDS! You simply can't do it. Baptized dead are never "added" to the membership rolls. They are only noted as having been baptized. Again, as a former Mormon you of all people should know this. The more you rant and rave, the more you show how out of touch you were with Mormonism even when you were Mormon.

Dana: I was quoting from a current apostle of the LDS church, Mark E. Peterson. That certainly meets your requirement of the last 100 years and I also posted a link from an "official" web site of the LDS Church ( a web site more official then Kevin's). That is today.

Nathan: Perhaps you need to look up the word explicitly . And perhaps you should provide the direct link instead of a link to the LDS web site. I'd do it, but we all know any attempts on my part to provide links are mere "disruptions" according to the moderator.

Dana: Wonder all you want, again your opinion is your opinion and has nothing to do with facts.

Nathan: And the only fact you have been able to demonstrate is that you have no answers to my questions, only more questions. Nowhere is it said these dead individuals are "LDS" or "on the membership rolls." Such accusations are asinine.

Dana: The quotes speak for themselves for those who are not blinded by friendships or memberships.

Nathan: They do speak for themselves, and this is why you're trying to wriggle your way out of this one. They speak for those who are not blinded by ex-Mormon dissent. You made a claim and now I am holding you to it. You cannot provide an explicit statement that said these men are now LDS. All you can do is respond to my question with more questions. Exactly what Kevin told me you'd do!

[Exmo-Robertson]

Well T.J. you have shown us that you know how to cut and paste Kevin Graham's e-mail very well. Your whole post is pure Kevinism. When are you going to stop being Kevin's parrot and actually come up with a defense yourself? Your last post was the biggest, dumbest, load of horse manure Kevin has yet to respond with. He's not man enough to face his own critics and runs away like a little girl crying "persecution, persecution!!!" claiming he'll never be back. Instead of being capable of even keeping that one word, he sends you to be his mouthpiece so he can claim that out of moral outrage he no longer posts here, but in reality he has never stop posting here. Has any of your post been your words T. J.? Have you expressed ONE thought here that wasn't first written by Kevin? Do you really have anything to offer on the topic of Mormonism that hasn't been filtered through the Kevin answer machine. When will Kevin be taking his hand out of your back and stop using you as his puppet?

Get a pair son.

[T.J. Maxx]

Testy now are we?

No Dana, you were brought in by Bill remember. But I was emailed by Dee Dee two weeks ago and she asked me to come back. So cry all you want and assume all you want. She will tell you that this is true. I had no idea what I was coming into though because Kevin didn't tell me anything about what was going on here until I saw it for myself. He doesn't need me to fight his battles anymore than Ed needs to you fight his.

Now, are you going to get back on topic and provide an example of an LDS explicitly stating the founding Fathers are on the "LDS membership rolls", or will you retract your statement since it is complete bunk!

Given your history, I'm betting you'll do neither.

[dizzle]

All members are welcome here provided the follow the rules. I did email TJ for he had not participated in a while. This is a debate forum and I encourage the participation of all members. I just wrote Marc and asked him to return, as he has been a complete gentleman. I do not hate LDS. I want to see them reached with the truth of the Gospel and not the distortion they currently hold.

And I do believe that TJ is simply acting as Kevin's mouthpiece. If Kevin wants to speak, he should return. This is one of the silliest games I have ever seen.

[Exmo-Robertson]

Today @ 06:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140890#post140890)
T.J. Maxx/Kevin Graham said:

Testy now are we?

No Dana, you were brought in by Bill remember. But I was emailed by Dee Dee two weeks ago and she asked me to come back. So cry all you want and assume all you want. She will tell you that this is true. I had no idea what I was coming into though because Kevin didn't tell me anything about what was going on here until I saw it for myself. He doesn't need me to fight his battles anymore than Ed needs to you fight his.

Then speak for yourself instead waiting for Kevin to tell you what to say. Again you put works in MY mouth something to the effect that Dee Dee didn't invite you. Please quote me where I have said that.

Today @ 06:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140890#post140890)
T.J. Maxx/Kevin Graham said:

Now, are you going to get back on topic and provide an example of an LDS explicitly stating the founding Fathers are on the "LDS membership rolls", or will you retract your statement since it is complete bunk!

Given your history, I'm betting you'll do neither.

You bet wrong, the quotes state the what is apparent to anyone with the ability to comprehend. Mormonism CLEARLY teaches that salvation is ONLY through membership in THEIR Church. The WHOLE reason members are doing work for the dead IS because they want the dead to have a chance to become members and therefore have a chance to get into the celestrial kingdom. If Kevin wants to deny this he can, but he can no longer be able to call himself a Mormon because that is Mormonism 101.
Pathetic.

[T.J. Maxx]

Dana: Then speak for yourself instead waiting for Kevin to tell you what to say. Again you put works in MY mouth something to the effect that Dee Dee didn't invite you. Please quote me where I have said that.

Nathan: I am speaking for myself. I am still waiting for you to back up your crap with substance. Nowhere do LDS leaders say these men are in the membership rolls or are they members of the Church. You are upset because you just got caught with your pants down. Sure, Kevin points these facts out to me, but just because I am influenced by Kevin doesn't make the argument wrong. If you and Dee Dee really have a problem with me being influenced by Kevin's arguments, then why don't you address the arguments instead of whining "oh you're just citing Kevin." This is where the "silly game" comes in. Kevin knows more about his faith and what his leaders have and have not said than the two of your put together. You appear to be upset over this fact.

Now I have asked you to back up your statements with facts and so far you've failed to do so. How many times will you dodge the request is the question. This is a perfect demonstration as to what sort of logic we are dealing with here. You think you can force words into the mouths of dead LDS leaders by twisting a comment here and there. When an LDS calls you on your argument you freak out and accuse them of being too dumb to understand that according to the world of Dana Robertson, "waiting" for something is synonymous with "accepting" something and by extension, "accepting" something in the hereafter is synonymous with being placed on "membership rolls" on earth. Well, there is nothing sensible about this argument at all and I think most people using at least three brain cells at a time will see the difference between the three difference concepts as well as the obvious attempt to go fishing for something to complain about.The mere fact that you would stoop to such a level indicates how weak your position as a disgruntled "ex-Mormon" really is.

Dana: Again you put works in MY mouth something to the effect that Dee Dee didn't invite you. Please quote me where I have said that.

Nathan: In your attempt to accuse me of something else, you only demonstrate your inability to comprehend. When and where did I ever put anything in your mouth? When and where did I ever say that you said Dee Dee didn't invite me? Good heavens, the more you speak the more you condemn yourself. I brought up the fact that Dee Dee invited me because it is relevant to the charge that I am running to Kevin's rescue because he left. No, it just happens to be coincidence that I was invited here at the same time Kevin left. For this reason Kevin is not using me as a mouthpiece.

Dana: You bet wrong, the quotes state the what is apparent to anyone with the ability to comprehend.

Nathan: Can't you come up with something more original than that? I asked you three times now to show me where any LDS leader said these men were on the "membership rolls." So far you haven't even come close. All you have done is point out that they were waiting for their works to be done, like everyone else according to Mormonism. You try to deduce this from logic but you don't take it to its logical end. If waiting for work to be done means you are Mormon, then everyone who has ever died must be Mormon according to the Mormons. But this is patently false, therefore your entire argument is bunk! Opening a dorr for someone is not the same thing as that someone walking trhough it. Can you get this simple fact in your head already? The comment that all people who are Baptized dead are placed on "membership rolls" is perhaps the most ignorant comment you've made yet. But you feel no need to back these assertions up with facts. Instead you want to rant away with rhetoric and more accusations. Changing the subject instead of dealing with one at a time just like Kevin said you'd do.

Dana: Mormonism CLEARLY teaches that salvation is ONLY through membership in THEIR Church.

Nathan: Prove it. If it is so "clear" then you should be able to demonstrate this. Thus far you've done no such thing. You seem incapable of realizing that the "Church" is an earthly organization. There is no "membership rolls" in heaven, and obviously one doesn't need to be a Mormon in this life in order to be saved or else they wouldn't bother doing temple work for the dead who were never LDS to begin with. The LDS believe it is possible for many to go to the highest kingdom without going to the temple in this life. Women who can't get married because they weigh 450 pounds for example, are never told they are hellbound because they can't get a husband and go through the temple proper. Your representation of the LDS is such a farce.

Dana: The WHOLE reason members are doing work for the dead IS because they want the dead to have a chance to become members and therefore have a chance to get into the celestrial kingdom.

Nathan: The last part is correct, but you're playing a game of semantics with the first comment. Temple is for the dead who were not baptized and endowed true. But you think this is all about adding numbers to the "membership rolls" which is again ridiculous. Show us just one place that indicates dead people are placed on membership rolls. The Church claims 10 million members, but if what you say is true, it should claim billions of dead folk too. You're probably the first anti-Mormon to ever make such a dumb accusation like this.

Dana: If Kevin wants to deny this he can, but he can no longer be able to call himself a Mormon because that is Mormonism 101.

Nathan: More hot air without substance. Saying a falsehood is true, over and over again, doesn't add credibility or validity. It only makes it appear weaker since no evidence is being brought forth even after several requests have been made. Rhetoric is all you have left.

Dana:Pathetic.

Nathan: No kidding.

Dee Dee: And I do believe that TJ is simply acting as Kevin's mouthpiece. If Kevin wants to speak, he should return. This is one of the silliest games I have ever seen.

Nathan: No more silly than expecting respect as an "authority" while at the same time all you can do is make baseless accusations such as these.

[Exmo-Robertson]

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Dana: Then speak for yourself instead waiting for Kevin to tell you what to say. Again you put works in MY mouth something to the effect that Dee Dee didn't invite you. Please quote me where I have said that.

Nathan: I am speaking for myself. I am still waiting for you to back up your crap with substance. Nowhere do LDS leaders say these men are in the membership rolls or are they members of the Church. You are upset because you just got caught with your pants down. Sure, Kevin points these facts out to me, but just because I am influenced by Kevin doesn't make the argument wrong. If you and Dee Dee really have a problem with me being influenced by Kevin's arguments, then why don't you address the arguments instead of whining "oh you're just citing Kevin." This is where the "silly game" comes in. Kevin knows more about his faith and what his leaders have and have not said than the two of your put together. You appear to be upset over this fact.

From the tone of your post the whiner is you. Address the argument? How many times are you going to refuse to read what was clearly stated by the LDS leaders? Telling you what they said IS addressing the argument. Your whole defense is to hide behind Kevin's most childish of arguments and that is "Well it doesn't say 'membership.' "

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Now I have asked you to back up your statements with facts and so far you've failed to do so. How many times will you dodge the request is the question. This is a perfect demonstration as to what sort of logic we are dealing with here. You think you can force words into the mouths of dead LDS leaders by twisting a comment here and there. When an LDS calls you on your argument you freak out and accuse them of being too dumb to understand that according to the world of Dana Robertson, "waiting" for something is synonymous with "accepting" something and by extension, "accepting" something in the hereafter is synonymous with being placed on "membership rolls" on earth. Well, there is nothing sensible about this argument at all and I think most people using at least three brain cells at a time will see the difference between the three difference concepts as well as the obvious attempt to go fishing for something to complain about.The mere fact that you would stoop to such a level indicates how weak your position as a disgruntled "ex-Mormon" really is.

Well when you get those 3 brain cells maybe you'll have SOME understanding of the LDS Church and what it teaches. Salvation according to them IS (or starts with) membership in their church. How does one become a member of their church? By being baptized in their Church and then recieve the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. After that is done, you are considered a member of their church. This is also the beginning of how one gets into the celestrial kingdom. You can't (according to them) get into the celestrial unless you are baptized and join the LDS Church. It is their teaching that this baptism HAS to be done by someone with their priesthood. It can't be done in the Catholic church, it can't be done in the Baotist church, it has to be done in the Mormon church, and YOU have to join the Mormon Church in order to get that done. They will NOT baptise you, they will NOT lay their hands on you to recieve the Holy Ghost, UNLESS AND ONLY if you will join the LDS Church.
The same with temple work or your own "endowment." You can't get your endowment if you're Baptist, you can't get your endowment if you're Catholic. In order to get your endowment, membership IS REQUIRED! And membership isn't enough! You have to be "worthy!" Meeting their requirements to get the temple recommend. The baptism, the laying on of hands, the temple endowment are MINIMUM requirements to get into the celestrial kingdom and you can only do it all if you ARE A MEMBER! If you ever had it done and left the church, they are no longer in effect. Membership is required to keep them valid. Why do Mormons do temple work for the dead? So they can also make sure the dead can claim that they have met the minimum requirements to get into the celestrial kingdom.
I never said that a member having done the work for the dead automatically makes them a member, the Mormons believe that the dead has to except the work. But Wilson clearly stated that the founding fathers were upset because they were waiting to have this work done so they could accept it. They wouldn't let him go home for 2 DAYS! It they wasn't going to accept it, why mke him do it? (I'm sorry I know you hate questions because they make you think, but try it just this one time)


Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Dana: Again you put works in MY mouth something to the effect that Dee Dee didn't invite you. Please quote me where I have said that.

Nathan: In your attempt to accuse me of something else, you only demonstrate your inability to comprehend. When and where did I ever put anything in your mouth? When and where did I ever say that you said Dee Dee didn't invite me? Good heavens, the more you speak the more you condemn yourself. I brought up the fact that Dee Dee invited me because it is relevant to the charge that I am running to Kevin's rescue because he left. No, it just happens to be coincidence that I was invited here at the same time Kevin left. For this reason Kevin is not using me as a mouthpiece.

Yet all you can do is quote Kevin, I respond and we all wait until you know what Kevin wants you to say and then you post it.

Dana: You bet wrong, the quotes state the what is apparent to anyone with the ability to comprehend.

Nathan: Can't you come up with something more original than that? I asked you three times now to show me where any LDS leader said these men were on the "membership rolls." So far you haven't even come close. All you have done is point out that they were waiting for their works to be done, like everyone else according to Mormonism. You try to deduce this from logic but you don't take it to its logical end. If waiting for work to be done means you are Mormon, then everyone who has ever died must be Mormon according to the Mormons. [/quote]

You're the one who is having trouble following along. I didn't say "waiting for the work to be done means your a Mormon" but that Wilson having done the work means they are now. Why? Because they have been waiting for it, they wouldn't be waiting for it if they didn't intent to accept it.

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

But this is patently false, therefore your entire argument is bunk! Opening a dorr for someone is not the same thing as that someone walking trhough it. Can you get this simple fact in your head already? The comment that all people who are Baptized dead are placed on "membership rolls" is perhaps the most ignorant comment you've made yet.

That would be true if I had said that. Please qoute where I did, if not then the ignorance is on your part.


Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

But you feel no need to back these assertions up with facts. Instead you want to rant away with rhetoric and more accusations. Changing the subject instead of dealing with one at a time just like Kevin said you'd do.

"Just like Kevin said you'd do, just like Kevin said you'd do." No, you don't speak for Kevin at all.

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Dana: Mormonism CLEARLY teaches that salvation is ONLY through membership in THEIR Church.

Nathan: Prove it. If it is so "clear" then you should be able to demonstrate this. Thus far you've done no such thing. You seem incapable of realizing that the "Church" is an earthly organization. There is no "membership rolls" in heaven, and obviously one doesn't need to be a Mormon in this life in order to be saved or else they wouldn't bother doing temple work for the dead who were never LDS to begin with.

Again you're making claims I never stated. I didn't say you had to be a "member in this life." I said you had to be a member, that IS why they are doing temple work for the dead. The members are meeting the requirements for the dead who want to become members. duh

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

The LDS believe it is possible for many to go to the highest kingdom without going to the temple in this life. Women who can't get married because they weigh 450 pounds for example, are never told they are hellbound because they can't get a husband and go through the temple proper. Your representation of the LDS is such a farce.

You're debating claims I've never made. But that teaching concerning the woman you talked does include someone doing temple work for her after she is dead. You can not go into the celestrial kingdom without having your temple work done. By you in this life or someone for you after you die.

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Dana: The WHOLE reason members are doing work for the dead IS because they want the dead to have a chance to become members and therefore have a chance to get into the celestrial kingdom.

Nathan: The last part is correct, but you're playing a game of semantics with the first comment. Temple is for the dead who were not baptized and endowed true. But you think this is all about adding numbers to the "membership rolls" which is again ridiculous. Show us just one place that indicates dead people are placed on membership rolls. The Church claims 10 million members, but if what you say is true, it should claim billions of dead folk too. You're probably the first anti-Mormon to ever make such a dumb accusation like this.

Well it's impotant to them that they keep a record of who has had their temple done on their genealogy records. Again you put words in my mouth, I wish you would learn how to debate what I actually said instead of going into your own fantasyland and debating from that point. I never claim they listed the dead people who they have done temple work for on their active live files.

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Dana: If Kevin wants to deny this he can, but he can no longer be able to call himself a Mormon because that is Mormonism 101.

Nathan: More hot air without substance. Saying a falsehood is true, over and over again, doesn't add credibility or validity. It only makes it appear weaker since no evidence is being brought forth even after several requests have been made. Rhetoric is all you have left.

Well when are you going to pratice what you are preaching?

Today @ 05:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144000#post144000)
T.J. Maxx:

Dana:Pathetic.

Nathan: No kidding.

Nope, no kidding. I'll be glad when you learn to debate something I've actually said. In the meantime, I'll wait for you to see what Kevin wants you to say.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
Dana,

EXMO-ROBERTSON:
You can not go into the celestrial [sic] kingdom without having your temple work done. By you in this life or someone for you after you die.


JOHN MORMON:
What about children and fetuses who die before the age of accountability, Dana? According to Mormons, do they have to be baptized for the dead too in order to merit Celestial (CelesTRIAL?) glory?

What if the American founding fathers did want Mormon temple ordinances done for them? What's that to you? Are you prepared to claim that they did not ask to have this done for them?


Now, TJ,

I hope you don't think I'm generally critical of you for criticizing a few things. I like most of what you say, except for unnecessary criticisms of Dee Dee and the following,

TJMAXX:
And I can only wonder what purpose your thread topic has anyway. I wonder what this has to do with discussing LDS "doctrine." Seems to be just another post aimed at the knee caps.

And I don't dislike you since I don't even know you. Keep the "poor me" syndrome to yourself. I dislike your approach towards Mormons and I think you have some serious psychological issues, but I judge the truthfulness of your comments on their own merit.


POWELL:
Isn't this psychological comment "aimed at the knee caps," and, therefore, hypocritical?

I wonder how many people in the future will be of the opinion that discussing religion like we do is a sign of psychological problems.

John Powell

[Exmo-Robertson]

Today @ 06:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=146227#post146227)
John Powell:


JOHN MORMON:
What about children and fetuses who die before the age of accountability, Dana? According to Mormons, do they have to be baptized for the dead too in order to merit Celestial (CelesTRIAL?) glory?

You're right, Mormonism teaches that those who die before the age of 8 don't need their temple work done. But that doesn't relate to the founding fathers.

Today @ 06:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=146227#post146227)
John Powell:

What if the American founding fathers did want Mormon temple ordinances done for them? What's that to you? Are you prepared to claim that they did not ask to have this done for them?



My personal opinion? Did Wilson really have this event happen to him? While I'm wasn't there to witness if it did or if it didn't, I do have doubts. Maybe Wilson had too much "Valley Tan" before he went in temple, I don't know. I only posted it because I thought outsiders would be interested in this bit of Mormon folklore. The topic got off based because Kevin is mad and is using T.J. to try and discredit me.

[John Powell]

EXMO-ROBERTSON:
The topic got off based because Kevin is mad and is using T.J. to try and discredit me.


POWELL:
You're probably right that Kevin is mad, but I'm not convinced that TJ is his puppet. Even if it were true, however, I don't think it really matters in the present context. We're here to discuss religious issues, not call each other bad names.

When you attack the man (such as his credibility) rather than the arguments that the man brings up, that's called a fallacious ad hominem argument. Both you and TJ seem to be doing that too often. Valid deductive arguments are valid regardless of who presents them.

If TJ brings up a good rebuttal then IMO you should defend against that rebuttal, not "throw a red herring" trying to divert attention away from your need to rebut by focusing on who might be pulling TJ's strings.

Credibility is important because it helps one to judge whether to trust a claim. However, it's difficult to judge in the Internet environment in which we operate. Printed arguments, however, are about as clear as things can be.

John Powell

[Exmo-Robertson]

Today @ 06:48 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=146268#post146268)
John Powell:



POWELL:

If TJ brings up a good rebuttal then IMO you should defend against that rebuttal, not "throw a red herring" trying to divert attention away from your need to rebut by focusing on who might be pulling TJ's strings.

Credibility is important because it helps one to judge whether to trust a claim. However, it's difficult to judge in the Internet environment in which we operate. Printed arguments, however, are about as clear as things can be.

John Powell

I think that I have defended my position very clearly wheither I thought it was T.J. or Kevin who wrote it.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
Fine.

John Powell

[Ric]

I just love how the LDS church just flat out lies all of the time! :lmbo:

07-05-2003 @ 04:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140256#post140256)
Exmo-Robertson:

According to church leaders, all of the founding fathers are now baptized Mormons.


"Shortly after President Spencer W. Kimball became President of the Church, he assigned me [Elder Mark E. Peterson] to go into the vault of the St. George Temple and check the early records. As I did so, I realized the fulfillment of a dream I had had ever since learning of the visit of the Founding Fathers to the St. George Temple. I saw with mine own eyes the record of the work which was done for the Founding Fathers of this great nation, beginning with George Washington. Think of it, the Founding Fathers of this nation, those great men, appeared within those sacred walls and had their vicarious work done for them."

"Church President Wilford Woodruff spoke of it in these words: "Before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, 'You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to in and were faithful to God.' These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence and they waited on me for two days and two nights. I straightway went into the baptismal fond and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men." (Journal of Discourses Vol. 19, p.229)

"These noble spirits came there with divine permission - evidence that this work of salvation goes forward on both sides of the veil. At a later conference, in April 1898, after he became President of the Church, President Woodruff declared that "those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits . [and] were inspired of the Lord."
(In Conference Report, April 1898, p. 89)"

"But we honor more than those who brought forth the Constitution. We honor the Lord, who revealed it. God himself has borne witness to the fact that He is please with the final product of the work of these great patriots."
- Elder Mark E. Peterson's book "The Great Prologue"

See: http://www.stgeorgetemplevisitorscenter.org/temple-sg/woodruff.html

:lmbo:

[John Powell]

RIC:
I just love how the LDS church just flat out lies all of the time!


JOHN MORMON:
Well, I don't love how you flat out exaggerate.

John Powell

[Ric]

Trust me, I wish I were exaggerating! :yx:

Today @ 03:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=146743#post146743)
John Powell:



JOHN MORMON:
Well, I don't love how you flat out exaggerate.

John Powell