A common theme in most religions is free will....

[XaositectCrayon]

Christianity it was a gift from god
Thelema it is the key to salvation

I guess from that you could assume any deist or other non specific spiritualist would look at their own free will as part of the spirit and not the brain?

What is the general thought on this?

P.S. I assume this is the right board to post this

[shunyadragon]

Christianity it was a gift from god
Thelema it is the key to salvation

I guess from that you could assume any deist or other non specific spiritualist would look at their own free will as part of the spirit and not the brain?

What is the general thought on this?

P.S. I assume this is the right board to post this

Wellcome to Tweb!

I would consider freewill a natural consequence of the development of the intellect of the brain and mind. Free will shows a progressive complexity in different species of mammals as they evolve. The key to the development of a more complex brain and intellect including freewill, and learned behavior appears to be connected with longer gestation and nurturing periods to maturity.

Different religious beliefs are not that easy to define as to what the nature of spirit, soul, mind and brain is in freewill. As a TE I believe natural evolution is a creation process.

[technomage]

Christianity it was a gift from god
Thelema it is the key to salvation

It ... can be. But (IMO), too many people confuse their Will with the whim of the moment. It's my opinion that even 10=1 may fall prey to this.

[David_A_Reed]

"...choose this day whom you will serve, ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Joshua 24:14

The Bible wasn't written for theologians, but for farmers and fishermen and women raising children. And God still hides the most magnificent truths from the wise and intellectual ones, and reveals them to babes.

David

[XaositectCrayon]

It ... can be. But (IMO), too many people confuse their Will with the whim of the moment. It's my opinion that even 10=1 may fall prey to this.
ahhh yes Aleister Crowley had a problem with people reading too much into his life and too little into his teachings and getting this conclusion. That free will is a whim.

and Shunny Dragon... I dont understand your faith symbol...

[technomage]

ahhh yes Aleister Crowley had a problem with people reading too much into his life and too little into his teachings and getting this conclusion. That free will is a whim.

It happens. *shrug* Crowley had some good ideas ... but I think that, occasionally, he went the long way around Robin Hood's barn, so to speak.

and Shunny Dragon... I dont understand your faith symbol...


Shunya's a Bahai.

[XaositectCrayon]

"...choose this day whom you will serve, ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Joshua 24:14

The Bible wasn't written for theologians, but for farmers and fishermen and women raising children. And God still hides the most magnificent truths from the wise and intellectual ones, and reveals them to babes.

David

ahhh yes and from what little of the bible I read... most Christians have no idea

Jesus was born into Jewish faith. Yahweh was the only center the Jews would listen too and there was already a huge reform going along in Judaism. What old bearded Josh told the first generation Nozri is, in my belief, NOTHING what he told any of the jews.
I guess you'd have to ask Mattai and Todah

that's off the subject

in any case. Back on the subject of Crowley. He was an old hedonist who seemed to spend his entire life in the same haze most people spend their college days. He did have good ideas but I disagree with free will never conflicting with anothers. And I believe acetism is not useless but a great study tool for the human soul. But just that and only that.
Never heard that expression... long way around Robin Hood's Barn? do you meen barmy?

[technomage]

Back on the subject of Crowley. He was an old hedonist who seemed to spend his entire life in the same haze most people spend their college days.

Yeah--if nothing else, he definitely had some fun along the way! :hehe:

He did have good ideas but I disagree with free will never conflicting with anothers.

Hmm ... well, his idea was that your perfect Will will never conflict with another person's perfect Will ... but if you're including that concept in your doubts, then I tend to agree with you. We're competative creatures, and competition is the conflict of wills. I rather have my doubts that something so central to our existance is part of the illusion of the unenlightened.

And I believe acetism is not useless but a great study tool for the human soul.

I'm of the opinion that both asceticism and excess have their place, but either one maintained to an extreme (or to the exclusion of the other) is foolishness, at best. Mortification and hedonism teaches us that the flesh is subject to the Will, but once you learn that lesson, going back through mortification or hedonism is like trying to reinvent the wheel. It seems especially silly to me if a person learns that lesson without going through the extremes, then puts himself through those experiences anyway.

Never heard that expression... long way around Robin Hood's Barn? do you meen barmy?

:lol: No--it's a British version of the phrase "He went around his [buttocks] to get to his elbow." Since I'm American, I normally use the "elbow" phrase--but it's not exactly approved language at this website.

[shunyadragon]

ahhh yes and from what little of the bible I read... most Christians have no idea

Jesus was born into Jewish faith. Yahweh was the only center the Jews would listen too and there was already a huge reform going along in Judaism. What old bearded Josh told the first generation Nozri is, in my belief, NOTHING what he told any of the jews.
I guess you'd have to ask Mattai and Todah

that's off the subject

in any case. Back on the subject of Crowley. He was an old hedonist who seemed to spend his entire life in the same haze most people spend their college days. He did have good ideas but I disagree with free will never conflicting with anothers. And I believe acetism is not useless but a great study tool for the human soul. But just that and only that.
Never heard that expression... long way around Robin Hood's Barn? do you meen barmy?

Crawley I have to consider an unrealist with a few good ideas.

Yes, I am a Baha'i from a more Buddhist/Taoist perspective, who raises many many 'Middle Way' issues in a forum where the either/or extreme argument between Christians and atheists is in vogue, because it is safe to debate lobbing smelly stuff from a distance, and inflict bruises from ten foot poles. In some threads it earns me a lot of 'ignore' points.

Asceticism (I hope I got you right here. I don't what acetism is) and a celebate life styles have rolls in the journey, enlightenment and awakening, but it is not a means to an end. Probably my argument against most advocates of asceticism is the most commonly held belief in its necessity as a life style to achieve enlightenment, knowledge, salvation or awakening.

[XaositectCrayon]

Crawley I have to consider an unrealist with a few good ideas.

Yes, I am a Baha'i from a more Buddhist/Taoist perspective, who raises many many 'Middle Way' issues in a forum where the either/or extreme argument between Christians and atheists is in vogue, because it is safe to debate lobbing smelly stuff from a distance, and inflict bruises from ten foot poles. In some threads it earns me a lot of 'ignore' points.

Asceticism (I hope I got you right here. I don't what acetism is) and a celebate life styles have rolls in the journey, enlightenment and awakening, but it is not a means to an end. Probably my argument against most advocates of asceticism is the most commonly held belief in its necessity as a life style to achieve enlightenment, knowledge, salvation or awakening.
well acetism meens celebacy to all pleasures. But I agree I believe it is a usefull tool but anyone who uses it longer than they need is just following dogma for the sake of following dogma. (I am not an acetic... I am just consider anything that would test the relationship of the spirits alliance with the body a learning tool).

All around you seem far more intellegent than most people who debate religion. Either that or your willing to actually debate then just throw views around. I read up alittle on your faith (just the wiki file) it seems alittle like my views. I dont see a diety in the middle of any unfolding of our spirituality. I mostly see the spirit itself unfolding spirituality. We just relate it too folk legend we here about. I believe all our life is one part soul and one part chemical.

I also have a few weird typing habits I am sure to get on peoples nerves with. :lol:

[shunyadragon]

well acetism meens celebacy to all pleasures. But I agree I believe it is a usefull tool but anyone who uses it longer than they need is just following dogma for the sake of following dogma. (I am not an acetic... I am just consider anything that would test the relationship of the spirits alliance with the body a learning tool).

All around you seem far more intellegent than most people who debate religion. Either that or your willing to actually debate then just throw views around. I read up alittle on your faith (just the wiki file) it seems alittle like my views. I dont see a diety in the middle of any unfolding of our spirituality. I mostly see the spirit itself unfolding spirituality. We just relate it too folk legend we here about. I believe all our life is one part soul and one part chemical.

I also have a few weird typing habits I am sure to get on peoples nerves with. :lol:

I have used asceticism and celebacy as a life style in retreats or periods of live living alone in the countryside without conveniances. It played a role in my life, development of my beliefs (quietly sorting things out), and my Arts of the Way (Martial Arts).

How do you view free will in relationship with your concepts or belief in a form of asceticism (or acetism?)?

[XaositectCrayon]

I have used asceticism and celebacy as a life style in retreats or periods of live living alone in the countryside without conveniances. It played a role in my life, development of my beliefs (quietly sorting things out), and my Arts of the Way (Martial Arts).

How do you view free will in relationship with your concepts or belief in a form of asceticism (or acetism?)?

Well "free will" I guess depends on what you free it from. A part of free will is being free from the restraints of the body. If you test that part of the relationship you and focus on the changes you feel spiritually you could learn something. But ascetism (or however it is spelled) is hard on the body and I kinda need my strength to get healthy again. I kinda have depression from changeing my sleeping patterns over my job so... I ate. >.> talk about falling to ones chemicals. I have to break myself of that.

Goes to show that I need to build up my own will power.

I dont believe it cleanses the soul by any meens. We have our bodies and it's a good thing. They are wonderful things to have and we should indulge in them. It's just that you shouldnt become consumed in the indulgence and acetism could also "help" with that. But along those very lines the idea of ascetism is a concept and you can still become consumed in a concept. So relying on it is also moot.

[shunyadragon]

Well "free will" I guess depends on what you free it from. A part of free will is being free from the restraints of the body. If you test that part of the relationship you and focus on the changes you feel spiritually you could learn something. But ascetism (or however it is spelled) is hard on the body and I kinda need my strength to get healthy again. I kinda have depression from changeing my sleeping patterns over my job so... I ate. >.> talk about falling to ones chemicals. I have to break myself of that.

Goes to show that I need to build up my own will power.

I dont believe it cleanses the soul by any meens. We have our bodies and it's a good thing. They are wonderful things to have and we should indulge in them. It's just that you shouldnt become consumed in the indulgence and acetism could also "help" with that. But along those very lines the idea of ascetism is a concept and you can still become consumed in a concept. So relying on it is also moot.

Your spelling and unusual wording do not concern me, but being a bibliophile and a bit of word nut with my own spelling idiosyncrasies I will poke at it once in a while.

Asceticsim need not be hard on the body, and it may be part of a good discipline to train the body. It is also a tool to understanding freewill and the consequences of choices. In the ascetic mood we can become aware of small choices in a simpler world, but if it becomes a dogma we relenquish freewill for a prison.

[XaositectCrayon]

Your spelling and unusual wording do not concern me, but being a bibliophile and a bit of word nut with my own spelling idiosyncrasies I will poke at it once in a while.

Asceticsim need not be hard on the body, and it may be part of a good discipline to train the body. It is also a tool to understanding freewill and the consequences of choices. In the ascetic mood we can become aware of small choices in a simpler world, but if it becomes a dogma we relenquish freewill for a prison.
I kinda think it's the biggest chunk of free will one could do while grasping concepts. You are going against the very nature of your physical being (I dont meen celibacy (though it is part of it) as acetism. I meen acetism as complete absence of any excess at all. Spending your time with it living on the simplest of foods and sleeping on the ground).
Well I gotta get ready for work so I'll edit this later and finish her up.