This doesnt prove (modern) Deism in Thomas Jefferson...

[XaositectCrayon]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

it proves Jefferson rejects much of the clergy of protestants and Catholics (he was a mason no less) but he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ.

[shunyadragon]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

it proves Jefferson rejects much of the clergy of protestants and Catholics (he was a mason no less) but he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ.

Probably no in the traditional Christian theist worldview. Nothing can be proven, but he was most likely a deist and he apparently followed Christ as a more of philosopher.

If this does not demonstrate the currently accepted view that Jefferson rejected traditional Christianity, what ould have to offer that gives an alternat explanation?

[Straylight]

Does it matter though? I've never understood the debate here. Why does each side want to be right so much? He's almost treated like he's some god too.

Hey, what an idea! That should solve everything. Both sides should agree that Jefferson himself is God.

[shunyadragon]

Does it matter though? I've never understood the debate here. Why does each side want to be right so much? He's almost treated like he's some god too.

Hey, what an idea! That should solve everything. Both sides should agree that Jefferson himself is God.

You may amplify that point. How is Thomas Jefferson treated like some God?
By both sides are you referring to Christians as one side. Are you suggesting to Christians that they should treat him as God?


Does this represent contorted sarcasm or what?

[XaositectCrayon]

oh more or less I'm tired of soapboxing on the "anti christian" side. All it proved was he was untraditional though (and made a possibility he rejected the old testament).

it doesnt matter either way... I just never got the idea of an athiest "spreading the anti gospel" or whatever. It seems all together pointless like a chemical fatalist (determinist, whatever you wanna call him) discussing anything.

[Jayhawker Soule]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

it proves Jefferson rejects much of the clergy of protestants and Catholics (he was a mason no less) but he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ.Given ...

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820... it's hard to know what you might mean by saying the "he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ".

[shunyadragon]

Given ...

... it's hard to know what you might mean by saying the "he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ".

One comment here, being a Mason does not translate to believing in traditional Christian theism. In fact the Masons allow a much wider variation in religious creeds and beliefs, that easilly allow deists like Thomas Jefferson. In fact the broad theological brush of Masons sort of unnerves quite a few churches. some forbide Mason membership.

[Straylight]

Does this represent contorted sarcasm or what?

Yes, it's terribly sarcastic. Don't take me too seriously. The "god" comment is merely a harsh way of pointing out the differences between political and spiritual priorities.

And yes, I'm including some Christians. I find it amusing (and sometimes shocking) when they get their panties in a bunch about the "godliness of America". When they mix patriotism and holiness. Their outrage when someone questions a figure like Jefferson is part of a much bigger issue that I find both un-Christian and dangerous.

[XaositectCrayon]

One comment here, being a Mason does not translate to believing in traditional Christian theism. In fact the Masons allow a much wider variation in religious creeds and beliefs, that easilly allow deists like Thomas Jefferson. In fact the broad theological brush of Masons sort of unnerves quite a few churches. some forbide Mason membership.
actually... I believe early on Masons had to be Christians or Jews

now you have to be a theistic religion

but it doesnt matter now the rich are in control of them

[XaositectCrayon]

actually... I believe early on Masons had to be Christians or Jews

now you have to be a theistic religion

but it doesnt matter now the rich are in control of them
errrr... that's as far as I know anyways


and to the guy who brought up the examples for him not following old bearded Josh
I kinda forgot to post the page before that one. they said Jefferson written his own bible with the miracles toned down or taken out. Iirc he didnt include the OT but dont quote me

[Straylight]

errrr... that's as far as I know anyways


and to the guy who brought up the examples for him not following old bearded Josh
I kinda forgot to post the page before that one. they said Jefferson written his own bible with the miracles toned down or taken out. Iirc he didnt include the OT but dont quote me

Well, he never called it a "bible" per se. It took on that meaning later. It had nothing to do with the OT or the NT outside the gospels. It was a sort of miracle-deprived harmony gospel which contained only the teachings and some narrative parts about Jesus. While Jefferson wasn't a Christian or a theist, he still considered that Jesus exemplified perfect morality, and so in turn, sought to appreciate him on that level:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/deist1999/jeff_bible.htm

[Pastafarian]

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,
Doesn't sound like he believed the jesus story at all.

[Straylight]

He's just saying that he didn't believe in a "supernatural" Jesus. He believed in (what would later be called) a Schweitzer Jesus.

[autigerfan]

Didn't Jefferson literally cut all the verses that referenced the miracles of Jesus from his bible? I think that pretty much answers all questions about his views on Jesus.

[shunyadragon]

actually... I believe early on Masons had to be Christians or Jews

now you have to be a theistic religion

but it doesnt matter now the rich are in control of them

Actually the basic Mason doctrine never changed, and no early on you did not have to a traditional Christian or Jew, or even in a theistic worldview, just believe in God. The consideration of other religions just grew as Masons grew.

[shunyadragon]

Didn't Jefferson literally cut all the verses that referenced the miracles of Jesus from his bible? I think that pretty much answers all questions about his views on Jesus.

Yes, and a good deal more.

[shunyadragon]

He's just saying that he didn't believe in a "supernatural" Jesus. He believed in (what would later be called) a Schweitzer Jesus.

From my family's point of view my interest in Schweitzer, Jefferson, Paine, Spinoza, and other rebel free-thinkers poisoned my mind, but I love them ALL still, even thou I remain a theist. Some of my friends said I sold out to Darwin when I chose to study geology in college and became a geologist.

[Straylight]

From my family's point of view my interest in Schweitzer, Jefferson, Paine, Spinoza, and other rebel free-thinkers poisoned my mind, but I love them ALL still, even thou I remain a theist. Some of my friends said I sold out to Darwin when I chose to study geology in college and became a geologist.

Heh. I like them as well. Despite my disagreement with their conclusions, I still think that they addressed the important things...Issues which theists themselves lost track of and fell into complacency about.

Schweitzer, for example, did a great service for NT studies (and still does). If it wasn't for him, theists would still be worrying about various dogmatic and ecclessiastical representations of Jesus instead of trying to understand the historical and cultural world from which he came. That kind of study both enriches the church's understanding of itself, and keeps it in check as well.

Another person to put alongside Jefferson's ideas about Jesus and morality is Leo Tolstoy -- And if there wasn't a Tolstoyian or Jeffersonian Gospel, then it's doubtful that there would have ever been a Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi.

[shunyadragon]

Heh. I like them as well. Despite my disagreement with their conclusions, I still think that they addressed the important things...Issues which theists themselves lost track of and fell into complacency about.

I was never really concerned with their conclusions. Like Charles Darwin and others like those above, they were willing to go to considerable personal risk to address important issues and questions when others would not.

Schweitzer, for example, did a great service for NT studies (and still does). If it wasn't for him, theists would still be worrying about various dogmatic and ecclessiastical representations of Jesus instead of trying to understand the historical and cultural world from which he came. That kind of study both enriches the church's understanding of itself, and keeps it in check as well.

Schweitzer contributed a lot to my thinking early, but I am not sure many if not most Christians would share your enlightened view of him.

Another person to put alongside Jefferson's ideas about Jesus and morality is Leo Tolstoy -- And if there wasn't a Tolstoyian or Jeffersonian Gospel, then it's doubtful that there would have ever been a Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi.

All of the above are on the top bookshelf of my library. Interesting point is Leo Tolstoy endorsed the Baha'i Faith shortly before he was assasinated, and toward the end of his life Gandhi often stayed in the home of Baha'is. His famous last meeting and dialogue with the Islamic leader took place in the National Baha'i Center of India, exactly as portrayed in the movie.

[Straylight]

Schweitzer contributed a lot to my thinking early, but I am not sure many if not most Christians would share your enlightened view of him.

Heh...Well, I wouldn't say that I'm enlightened for that, but thanks anyways. That's very kind. :)

The way I see it, the NT is not just "theological" or "spiritual" and shouldn't be hijacked that way -- To consider it so contributes to ignorance not just for outsiders, but to "insiders" as well. Sure, it's a model for spirituality and theology, but one can't even get those models right unless they merge their understanding of it as literature and as a glimpse into history as well. How can one know Jesus "now" if they don't have a good idea of Jesus "then"?

I do believe the Church is part of it's living story however, but sometimes it too needs to be put in check.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

it proves Jefferson rejects much of the clergy of protestants and Catholics (he was a mason no less) but he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ.Jefferson so openly disagreed with Christianity that it's hard to know what you mean. Of course he was some kind of theist, and yes he said that natural rights and liberties make little sense outside of that framework, but can you elaborate on what you yourself are saying when you say that "he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ"?

[suijurisfreeman]

I've read Allen Payne's book Jefferson's Declaration of Independence -- interesting read. While doing my research on Jefferson's 'religious' beliefs I came across a source that said atleast 47 of his letters discussed 'religion' -- I'm currently printing off and reading the something like 600 letters written by Jefferson. Does anyone here know specifically which of his letters discusses 'religion'? Thanks sjf

[shunyadragon]

actually... I believe early on Masons had to be Christians or Jews

now you have to be a theistic religion

but it doesnt matter now the rich are in control of them

False, there never was a requirement in Masons for the members to Christians or Jews, in fact they even allow Muslims. The only exclusion that I know of in Masons is atheists.

[StephenR]

*thread necromancy*

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

it proves Jefferson rejects much of the clergy of protestants and Catholics (he was a mason no less) but he seemed to have followed Jesus Christ.

Jefferson was a self-described Epicurean and deist; he believed that Jesus was a great ethical teacher but essentially interpreted Christ as a utilitarian!
In one of his letters he described the Epicurean moral doctrine thusly:

Moral -
* Happiness is the aim of life.
* Virtue the foundation of happiness.
* Utility the test of virtue.
* Pleasure active and In-do-lent.
* In-do-lence [a-tarax-ia] is the absence of pain, the true felicity.
* Active, consists in agreeable motion; it is not happiness, but the means to produce it.
* Thus the absence of hunger is an article of felicity; eating the means to obtain it.
* The summum bonum is to be not pained in body, nor troubled in mind.
* i.e. In-do-lence of body, tranquillity of mind.
* To procure tranquillity of mind we must avoid desire and fear, the two principal diseases of the mind.
* Man is a free agent.
* Virtue consists in 1. Prudence 2. Temperence 3. Fortitude 4. Justice.
* To which are opposed, 1. Folly. 2. Desire. 3. Fear. 4. Deceit.

Here: http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/jefflet.html

Not that it matters all that much, aside from historical curiosity.