What Should a Christian think about Plastic Surgery?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Not surgeries for things that are necessary, like to correct a club foot, but ones that are purely elective and cosmetic.

[Jacob]

Although I can understand it when someone gets some very unattractive feature modified, I can't see the justification of most breast implants and facial surgeries just to enhance non-grotesque features (of course, I don't perceive a need, so who am I to talk).

Are there some additional lines that need to be drawn? Does lipo-suction (sp?) fit in with facial reconstruction? I would say "no". How about removing that birth mark, mole, or wart? I would put that in a separate category.

Personally, I think there's a tendency to not accept God's provision. For the believer, I would ask them to reconsider. I think we can trust God with how he made us. My family has larger noses and packs on fat quite readily. I would not have liposuction or a nose-job, because I don't think looking like a model is a good priority. Neither would I say someone is sinning by having these procedures done, but I would suggest they question their motives & trust in God's provisions...

Then there's the plastic surgery addicts (like Michael Jackson)... Now that IS sinful ... ... it is the degrading of the body for the pursuit of a distorted view of "beauty". Regarding Michael, someone said, "America is the only place where a poor black boy can grow up to be a rich white woman."

Jacob

[Solly]

So, we are all using plastic action dolls as avatars, and you post this?

[John Reece]

Today @ 01:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=141853#post141853)
Solly:

So, we are all using plastic action dolls as avatars, and you post this?

:smile:

[mrsnacks]

Jacob : You stated that we should accept how God made us. That depends on how much money you have. Some of us have no choice. We couldn't do it even if we wanted to. Now if you are a rock star, actor, actress,CEO exec, televangelist, or lawyer . Sorry Dee Dee couldn't resist - then you can afford the plastic surgery.
So would you be against all forms of plastic surgery then because that would be our attempt to change what God had already done ? Our motives would all be the same don't you think ? To change what God has done. to look more attractive.
How about the separation and plastic surgery of siamese twins ? God made them to be part of each other . So was it wrong on their part to want to alter their situation ?
My opinion is that in someway the fall of man is involved in the way we come out. because of sin and it's effect = imperfect world = we do plastic surgery to improve our condition. I don't see it as wrong , but I really haven't thought this whole thing through. I think if you want to improve your looks - then by all means go ahead. There are risks involved . The only thing I think I would have a problem with are sex change operations. A past friend of mine had that done. She said that she felt like a girl trapped in a man's body so at age 22 --- he switched. I didn't know whether to give her a kiss or throw her a football.
i believe the quote was " America is the only place where" a rich white girl CAN'T grow up to be a poor black man. "
:huh:

[Glenn P]

Today @ 01:59 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=141853#post141853)
Solly:

So, we are all using plastic action dolls as avatars, and you post this?

Solly, that's not a doll on Dee Dee's Avatar, that's her. She REALLY believes in plastic surgery!

But seriously, God does not forbid plastic surgery. To say "the Bible would not allow it" is not true. there is nothing intrinsically wrong with self beautification per se, but there is something wrong with vanity. That doesn't condemn plastic surgery any more than it might condemn other forms of vanity. I'm not going to have plastic surgery done becuse I don't want it. I don't think it is wise because of the physical dangers. i also think that in many (elective) cases it might involve a feeling that you just HAVE to look like the ideal "doll face" type person to like good, and that's just harmful thinking.

I have no problem with lyposuction unless you really don't need it (i.e. if you just have a weight obsession and you're underweight or something). I think there's nothing wrong with losing weight if you need to or should do - whether naturally or artificially.

[Jacob]

Yesterday @ 02:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=142092#post142092)
mrsnacks:
So would you be against all forms of plastic surgery then because that would be our attempt to change what God had already done ? Our motives would all be the same don't you think ? To change what God has done. to look more attractive.
How about the separation and plastic surgery of siamese twins ? God made them to be part of each other . So was it wrong on their part to want to alter their situation ?


The only thing I said was sinful was that which degrades the human body. I also hinted at the sinfulness of vanity (as Theonomy noted as well).

Separation of siamese twins can be for many reasons. Health (although, as noted recently, it can be a lethal procedure) and modesty (marriage & procreation would be a bit tricky, don't you think) come to mind.

Jacob

[Socrates]

07-08-2003 @ 06:03 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=142092#post142092)
mrsnacks:

My opinion is that in someway the fall of man is involved in the way we come out. because of sin and its effect = imperfect world = we do plastic surgery to improve our condition.

That's an important point which is often missed, because of the widespread compromise on creation in the churches. Kowtowing to deist/atheistic ideas of millions of years or evolution entails that death, disease and suffering has always been with us and is part of the "very good" creation described in Genesis 1:31. But it was Adam's sin that brought bodily death, the "last enemy", into the world.

With the faulty compromise theology, it's no wonder that many misguided Christians think that certain things are mucking around with God's very good creation. But this creation is also cursed, and it's a biblical principle that it's "blessed" to help alleviate the effects of the Curse resulting from Adam's sin. This means that things like vaccination, plastic surgery, anesthesia in childbirth, are all good things.

See also Reshaping people: Carl Wieland interviews plastic surgeon David Pennington (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v22n3_pennington.asp).

[Pilgrim]

I was going to say much the same thing Socrates. If we consider the total effects of the fall we realize that even biologically and genetically we have been effected by the fall.

that being the case is it really true to say that the way we are now is God's original intention for us? We would certainly say that spiritually, the answer to that question is no. Otherwise what need do we have of Christ? So we must realize that at the fall all of creation was effected.

[Steven]

Dee Dee,

I think, and this is now the court of public opinion, that all women should, that want to, remove those nasty, dark moles from their faces and persons, or the 80 plus pounds of lipo-sludge taken away from their hips.

And then, when they write the 30 thousand dollar check, they can think of the starving children in Africa and the persecuted saints being totured for their faith and think to themselves, "Jesus loves me and this is what He would do..."

And, I suppose if you are poor, you'll just have to get the home-plastic surgery kit, which includes a local sewer rat with gnawing capabilities.

I hope that's the answer you were looking for.

- Steven

[Red Rooster]

Dee Dee,

I think Christians should insist on stainless steel. :dunce:

[Glenn P]

07-10-2003 @ 02:59 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144202#post144202)
Socrates:

That's an important point which is often missed, because of the widespread compromise on creation in the churches. Kowtowing to deist/atheistic ideas of millions of years or evolution entails that death, disease and suffering has always been with us and is part of the "very good" creation described in Genesis 1:31. But it was Adam's sin that brought bodily death, the "last enemy", into the world.


That may be true, Socrates, but remember - our minds too are fallen. What we think is an improvement to get closer to the way we would be if we weren't fallen, it is also quite possible that our fallen minds are just trying to justify our sinful vanity, following worldly trends that tell us how we "should look" etc. Now as I've sauid, plastic surgery is not intrinsically wrong, but it is sheer speculation to try and justify it on the grounds of our fallen physical features. How do WE know what they "should" look like?

I say let's not be spiritually pretentious about it. If you want to change one of your features to look more trendy, then just do that and admit it. Don't try and give a theological justification where one is not required.

[Sher]

07-09-2003 @ 02:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144540#post144540)
Steven:

Dee Dee,

I think, and this is now the court of public opinion, that all women should, that want to, remove those nasty, dark moles from their faces and persons, or the 80 plus pounds of lipo-sludge taken away from their hips.

And then, when they write the 30 thousand dollar check, they can think of the starving children in Africa and the persecuted saints being totured for their faith and think to themselves, "Jesus loves me and this is what He would do..."

And, I suppose if you are poor, you'll just have to get the home-plastic surgery kit, which includes a local sewer rat with gnawing capabilities.

I hope that's the answer you were looking for.

- Steven

Steven,

Forgive my bluntness, but this has to be one of the more idiotic things that you have said (and after that whole homosexual thread a while back, that is really saying something).

Perhaps you meant to only direct this toward cosmetic surgery for the vain, but the type of blanket statement that you made here is a prime example of forced guilt ... making people afraid to take care of things which need to be corrected to make them complete, or whole again.

What if the person cannot help that they were overweight to that extent ... a disease or condition being treated by medication now ... and that lipo is the difference between a person having a healthy heart and/or a healthy outlook on life?

What if they can't find a husband because the mole on their face is much larger, thicker, and/or darker than a "beauty mark"? Even Christian men are highly visual creatures ... what if no one has been able to get past the look of that person's features to see the inner beauty? It is a sad commentary, but not the fault of the person who is getting the surgery. (Or what if the mole is cancerous and the area needs to be reconstructed after it is surgically removed?)

Society has put far too high a price on "looks" ... coloring the view of what a real woman is supposed to look like, having real curves instead of skin and bones ... and doctored magazine pictures ...

... but in a time when there are competent surgeons who can repair things that may heal someone ... from the outside in ... heaping guilt on their heads such as you have done here is unforgivable.

:shersig: owner of a facial mole that isn't very dark ... and isn't particularly nasty ... but has a young "niece" who was being teased unmercifully by nasty little children who called her witch **

(... but I did have minor plastic surgery at age 5 to reattach a nostril that was flapped by a dog attack)



** Note to any parents whose children have experienced this discrimination (or similar) ... I sent my "sister"-friend a grouping of pictures of famous women who are very beautiful ... and have facial moles ("beauty marks"). Armed with a mental list of names ... such as Marilyn Monroe, Madonna, Cindy Crawford, Geena Davis ...

... and Sherilyn Fenn ... http://itsb.ucsf.edu/~vcr/fenn.jpeg ... my "niece" was able to combat the nasty children who had no rebuttal

(... but the cutest thing :smitten: was that my "niece" was most impressed by the fact that "Auntie Sherry" had one too ... and wasn't ashamed of it.)

[Dee Dee Warren]

Steven I sure hope you are thinking of those poor starving children (I am not denigrating that reality) when you pay for your Internet connection. I mean if we are going to play the "poor starving children" card do you think I could find something in your life to criticize and judge? I bet you I could. if you really care so much (and much more than some vile vain woman who would have plastic surgery) more for those children, why are you not in Africa feeding them? I could go on and on, and I just find it distasteful when the reality of poor starving children is used as a card in a polemical point.

For the record, I have not had plastic surgery nor am I at this point planning to do so. It was just an issue I found interesting. And I have to say, that unless you are really compaigning to change the image pressue upon women and NEVER engage in it yourself, you as a man, do not understand, and humility about that lack of understand should wisely undergird your point IMHO.

[Socrates]

Today @ 11:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147101#post147101)
Theonomy, replying to:


Socrates:

That's an important point which is often missed, because of the widespread compromise on creation in the churches. Kowtowing to deist/atheistic ideas of millions of years or evolution entails that death, disease and suffering has always been with us and is part of the "very good" creation described in Genesis 1:31. But it was Adam's sin that brought bodily death, the "last enemy", into the world.

That may be true, Socrates, but remember - our minds too are fallen.

Yes, and that explains why people don't accept the truth of Genesis (and I could talk about the futility of evidentialism which tends to deny this as well).


What we think is an improvement to get closer to the way we would be if we weren't fallen, it is also quite possible that our fallen minds are just trying to justify our sinful vanity, following worldly trends that tell us how we "should look" etc.

In some cases that would be true. But in other cases not, e.g. what Sher said.


Now as I've sauid, plastic surgery is not intrinsically wrong, but it is sheer speculation to try and justify it on the grounds of our fallen physical features. How do WE know what they "should" look like?

Not speculation at all in many cases. Adam and Eve would not have had huge birthmarks or a hugely off-center nose.


I say let's not be spiritually pretentious about it. If you want to change one of your features to look more trendy, then just do that and admit it. Don't try and give a theological justification where one is not required.

Obviously one WAS required -- it was perfectly permissible to use a theological justification to defend oneself from a legalistic person -- especially one with the erroneous belief that this was the way God originally created us.

Soc (not planning to have plastic surgery in the foreseeable future, and who thinks Theonomy's cautions in Post #6 are wise)

[Glenn P]

Not speculation at all in many cases. Adam and Eve would not have had huge birthmarks or a hugely off-center nose.

I agree that it will not always be speculation. i mean, we know that Adam and Eve would not have had downs syndrome or any genuine fault. But I have to question someone who seems to imply that the perfect image promoted by plastic surgery is just how we would look were it not for the fall. I say this because I assume you are on to it and you saw that I'm talking about elective cosmetic surgery.


Obviously one WAS required -- it was perfectly permissible to use a theological justification to defend oneself from a legalistic person -- especially one with the erroneous belief that this was the way God originally created us.
Well, my point is that unless you buy legalism, you don't need a theological defense. Legalism says you must not do this that or the other thing. But since God doesn't forbid it, the legalist can be (to borrow from Luther) blown away with a fart on this issue. You don't need a theological justification to do what God does not forbid. Just be up front - I want to do this because I want to look different. I see nothing wrong with that, provided the context is not one of just trying to look more "perfect," as though we know what a perfect person should look like.


Soc (not planning to have plastic surgery in the foreseeable future, and who thinks Theonomy's cautions in Post #6 are wise)

Good move, bro. :smile: When you see a lion charging, throw him a bone!

[Steven]

D/D and Sher,

It was clearly put in the thread that the question was about non-medical procedures.

There is a large difference between paying 14.95 a month and thirty thousand dollars. I would have to be online for 2,006 months to pay out that amount of cash, 167 years. Now, do I care whether someone pays to get that giant mole removed or not? No, I don't. That someone can spend millions of dollars; that is not my concern.
However, when you stand before God on judgment day you will be held responsible for the funds God gave to you, and if you had the extra funds and chance to help those those starving or persecuted, or to further the preaching of the Gospel and you did nothing... do you think there will not be consequences for acting so covetously?
If you have enough money to fork out thousands for a tummy tuck, then maybe you have too much money.

Be careful about judgeing one of the Lord's servants, to his own master he stands or falls. You don't know what I do with my finances. In regards to my stated opinion, it was just that, my opinion. It was general, non-specific and had no one in mind.
IN this open-minded, sensitive and broadly diverse website, you really should not be so intolerant of my opinions, even IF my opinions are contrary to your own assertions/judgment.

As for moles, wrinkles and grey hair, count them a blessing; really attractive women generally attract womanizers.

Now Sher, if you and DD were offended by my first post, well that's just tough; life's a learning process.
Have a scrumptious day.
:cheers:

- Steven

[Sher]

Actually Steven, it was specified cosmetic ... but cosmetics is a broad definition that covers many things ... from the minor surgery that I had to repair my face ... to major cosmetics to replace what was lost by mastectomy ... and many places in-between.

The point was that you put forth an unnecessary guilt trip on the person who may require either ... and when the light is shown on this dirty little attitude, you feel the hoist of your own pertard:


There is a large difference between paying 14.95 a month and thirty thousand dollars. I would have to be online for 2,006 months to pay out that amount of cash, 167 years.

Is there? Is there really? Do you assume that the $14.95 a month would not feed someone? Whatever we could, and do, give is helpful ... be it $30,000 or $14.95 a month for any fraction of those 167 years.

The point is not that we spend money on certain things, it is that you used as an example ... and continue to defend that error ... that someone who spends money on whatever plastic surgery is guilty of not giving money to the hungry and needy. You have no right to put a price tag on how much it takes that person to be whole again -- my first objection. And your biggest mistake -- my second objection -- is that you defend your point as the person getting the surgery is somehow more more of a malefaction than the man who sits home paying $14.95 a month for internet access ... when the surgical canidate may be giving much larger amounts than you to the needy and poor.

And it is obvious by the way your answer begins to whine that you felt the guilt trip you fostered coming back to bite you in the posterior ... it doesn't feel very good, does it? Think how your words affected others who may need ... or have had ... surgeries that were neccessary to be whole again.

:shersig:

[bar Jonah]

While channel-hopping today, on some cable channel was a program that followed the cases of several people receiving different kinds of cosmetic plastic surgery. One of them said something that I'd heard a thousand times but which suddenly struck me for some reason.

"Now that I have a new ___, I feel much better about myself, because people find me more attractive."

I thought, "HA!" Hogwash! You don't feel better about yourself. And people don't find YOU more attractive. You feel good about that thing that's been implanted in you, and people find that thing attractive.

That's like going around wearing a mask of Rebecca Romijn-Stamos, and saying, "I feel better about myself now, because people find me more attractive." But we'd all agree that is idiotic. People wouldn't find her more attractive. The mask is, if anything.

Such people feel better about themselves? I say nay. They feel good about some thing taped or stapled to them. Their self-esteem about their SELF is still the same, and it will never change. In fact, if anything, their real SELF-image will only get worse, because this new artificial thing will only prove to them and reinforce that IT is what is beautiful, not them. It's no wonder that so many people go on to have further cosmetic surgery, even to the point of being addictive. Their self-esteem gets worse and worse, not better and better.

[Sher]

RI,

I agree with you to a point ... for the addicted ... or the ones who are using it to attract in that manner (unnecessary agumentation comes to mind) ...

But for some, and I've seen some of those same programs ... the married lady with the very large bumped nose, for example, said something similar ... it is a case of feeling better ... maybe it isn't right in those instances either ... we've talked, IIRC, about self-esteem vs. no-esteem ... and I support that ... even when I find myself working on it harder than anyone I know ..

... but for some things, such as I've mentioned ... it's not an augmentation simply for the process itself, it is a healing ... just like someone goes to the doctor to stitch a cut ... or take a medicine ... it is a medical process ... when not abused ... that is beneficial

:shersig:

[Socrates]

Yesterday @ 08:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147345#post147345)
Theonomy:

Well, my point is that unless you buy legalism, you don't need a theological defense. Legalism says you must not do this that or the other thing. But since God doesn't forbid it, the legalist can be (to borrow from Luther) blown away with a fart on this issue. You don't need a theological justification to do what God does not forbid.

Au contraire -- God inspired Paul to refute legalism in Romans 14 and Colossians 2. Therefore it's perfectly in order for a Christian to answer legalists from God's Word.

[John Reece]

Socrates,

One more final sigma . . . ?

[Glenn P]

Yesterday @ 07:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147833#post147833)
Socrates:

Au contraire -- God inspired Paul to refute legalism in Romans 14 and Colossians 2. Therefore it's perfectly in order for a Christian to answer legalists from God's Word.

Naughty Socrates! :whip: That's equivocation. It is clear from the context of my post that by "legalism" I mean making commandments where God has made none. That's not what Paul is talking about in those passages.

And anyway, my response does not overlook God's word. It simply involves pointing out that such rules ae not in God's word so we can just ignore them.

[saralarios]

If getting a nose job or breast implants or changing whichever part about yourself you are not happy with is going to make you feel better about yourself and give you that confidence-boost you needm I dont think theres anything wrong with it.
It is always easy for us to judge people but it isnt as easy for us to put ourselves in their positions. We're not the ones who are constantly made fun of. And if getting that nose job or those breast implants is going to make you so happy that you're going to want to make other people happy as well, do you think God would disapprove?
HE doesnt care about our looks, he cares about whats inside so as long as we dont change after the surgery and we're still godly men and women, I think its more than okay.

[mrsnacks]

HE doesnt care about our looks, he cares about whats inside so as long as we dont change after the surgery and we're still godly men and women, I think its more than okay.
------------------------------------------------
I disagree and from the scriptures God does care about our looks." Cast all your cares before Him for He cares for you. " If one has a disfigured face and not the money or means to correct it -- I think God cares. Your statement that God cares what's on the inside comes up way short. The inside is affected by what's on the outside as in the case of the one with the disfigured face.

Just imagine waking up one morning with boils all over your face. It doesn't hurt . But I guarantee you that in a flash you will be running to the doctor. Now what if the doctor says to you .It's a rare thing what you have, but it's non- life threatening so you won't die from it. God sees what's on the inside so don't worry about it . How does that sound ? I know my example is an extreme but those out there with big noses, crooked faces , and all that -- it's extreme for them . They want to better their appearance. Doesn't Michael Jackson look so much better than he did before ? Just kidding .


:eek:

[Starkman]

Ok, now listen. Anytime you have surgery, always, always use plastic. Never pay in cash. (Hello! They even give you a hint..."plastic surgery").

Come to think of it, every time my wife uses plastic, it's disastrous surgery on the bank account.

Ok, you can quit listening now.

Starkman

[mrsnacks]

I'm sure there are times that plastic comes in handy. Plus how would you get to work if we took all the plastic off your car ? :lol:

[Crow]

Are we to sit and cry and moan, put on our sackcloth and ashes, and maybe shave our eyebrows like the heathen Egyptians did in mourning whenever we do something that pleases us? Pharasees, move your butts over, here come the modern Christians, making laws upon laws of our own to replace the Law that Christ fulfilled for us. We miss the Law! We are zealous for more Laws! Bring us another Ministry of Death! We need more "Thou-shalt-nots." This freedom in Christ, our Savior, is driving us to distraction!

Physical beauty is not everything, but nowhere is it written that Christians have to live in hovels and look like dogs. I have not had plastic surgery, but I have a friend that had a huge nose, she had plastic surgery, and looks much nicer, but she's also much more outgoing, and her shyness has vanished.

If one is obsessed with looking perfect, then that's an area a Christian should pray and take up with God. Such an insecurity is a hinderance not only to one's personal life, but to allowing God to work through them. Correcting an unsightly feature is not an obsession.

It is up to the individual Christian family to allocate their resources wisely. Plastic surgery is no more "evil" than perfume, deoderant, nice clothes, hair cuts, shoe polish, nail polish, makeup, or a host of other things we do to make ourselves more pleasant and attractive.

We nearly all have expendable income. Those starving children aren't going to see the $5000 worth of nose job any more than they are going to see $5000 worth of delivery pizza, soda, game boys, candy, house plants,cable TV, makeup, sports equipment, Pokemon cards, chrome hubcaps, toys, vacation, movies, etc.

[decoski]

If you are ugly, then by all means, get it done! JUST JOKING! Man you people need to lighten up! Seriously, I don't see anything wrong with plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes. If you are not happy with how you look, then there is nothing wrong with trying to change your looks. I exercise and eat healthy - most of the time- mostly to keep myself pleased with how I look as well as for health purposes, so is this wrong too? Does that make me "shallow?" Should we not comb our hair? Should we not wear nice clothes? Should men not shave their faces? Should women not wear makeup or shave their armpits? These are all cosmetic too, but nobody has a problem with these, except for maybe hippies and some Europeans.

[Pilgrim]

If you are ugly, then by all means, get it done! JUST JOKING! Man you people need to lighten up! Seriously, I don't see anything wrong with plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes. If you are not happy with how you look, then there is nothing wrong with trying to change your looks. I exercise and eat healthy - most of the time- mostly to keep myself pleased with how I look as well as for health purposes, so is this wrong too? Does that make me "shallow?" Should we not comb our hair? Should we not wear nice clothes? Should men not shave their faces? Should women not wear makeup or shave their armpits? These are all cosmetic too, but nobody has a problem with these, except for maybe hippies and some Europeans.
I think the concern for most people is the degree to which these things are taken. Wouldn't ou agree? To make a poor analogy:

It's ok to not liek someone, everyone has someone they don't like and they go to efforts to avoid them or even tell them about the dislike, sometimes they even yell! So why isn't it ok to simply take it one step further and just off them if you don't like them enough?

You see, it's all a matter of degree.

[j_flex4]

When trying to be the best you can be, where does one cross the line in vanity? I am so thankful for the person that god made in me, even my faults.
I in fact underwent rhinoplasty this morning. I've been struggling with what God must think of this. I get no strong emotional/spiritual intuition one way or the other. I don't want to look like someone else (I've grown fond of my face), but I just wanted to refine/define the traits I possess already possess so the image in the mirror matches the image in my mind. Looking like Pamela Lee/Denzel Washington shouldn't be the ideal. Looking like the best possible you, is. Thanks.