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View Full Version : Licona Tells a Demon Story



whag
02-08-2014, 09:10 PM
I just listened to an interview with Mike Licona. Starting at 42:20, Licona tells a story about a demon that attacked his Yale-educated friend while on a mission in China.
It's an amazing story he's wholly convinced is true.


I think the story is false. I think it did not happen because who'd be able to hold their bladder (or bowels) while literally being strangled by a demon?

http://ia600302.us.archive.org/11/items/ConversationsFromThePaleBlueDot002-MikeLicona/002-MikeLicona.mp3

Paprika
02-08-2014, 09:32 PM
I think the story is false. I think it did not happen because who'd be able to hold their bladder (or bowels) while literally being strangled by a demon?
So if the friend had held his bowels/bladder, would you think the story plausible?

whag
02-08-2014, 09:43 PM
So if the friend had held his bowels/bladder, would you think the story plausible?

he did hold it. after the demon ran off like a scaredy pants at the mention of Jesus, the dude went to the bathroom proper.

and, no. if he came back with soiled pants, I probably wouldn't believe he was choked by a demon. I brought up the bathroom bit obviously because that's a funny part of the story.

DesertBerean
02-08-2014, 09:44 PM
Well first tell us 1) do you believe in demons? 2) if so, have you encountered demons? 3) and if so, what kind of encounters were they?

I mean, there's no point discussing the plausibility of Licona's account if you don't believe in the existence and activity of demons.

DesertBerean
02-08-2014, 09:44 PM
Oh pardon me. This is whag. Never mind.

Christianbookworm
02-08-2014, 09:55 PM
He wouldn't believe even if one of those nasty critters was right in front of him.

Christianbookworm
02-08-2014, 10:05 PM
Some of the stories are creepy. Sure glad that God is God.

whag
02-08-2014, 10:17 PM
Well first tell us 1) do you believe in demons? 2) if so, have you encountered demons? 3) and if so, what kind of encounters were they?

I mean, there's no point discussing the plausibility of Licona's account if you don't believe in the existence and activity of demons.

it raises good questions about how demons interact with humans. I didn't know you believed demons had the power of incarnation.

DesertBerean
02-08-2014, 10:30 PM
They don't...they possess one's body. Or an animal's body, according to an account in Scripture.

And since you didn't answer my questions....

whag
02-08-2014, 10:39 PM
They don't...they possess one's body. Or an animal's body, according to an account in Scripture.

And since you didn't answer my questions....

my belief in demons is as relevant as yours, in that you'll tend to believe a story like this because you believe in a demon army while I tend to disbelieve them because I haven't met a demon.

so you think Licona meant it was a demon possessed man. he actually didn't say that, but okay. but why does he assume a mere pissed-off Muslim can't commit such an act? why extrapolate possession from the event?

Jedidiah
02-08-2014, 10:43 PM
Oh pardon me. This is whag. Never mind.

Amen.

DesertBerean
02-08-2014, 10:50 PM
First, I apologize... I don't always explain that I'm almost deaf, so audio files don't help me. I responded to you solely because I gathered you didn't believe in demons.

Secondly, why are you discussing this at all? Especially since it appears you don't know the usual Christian view about demons anyway?

JohnnyP
02-08-2014, 11:00 PM
my belief in demons is as relevant as yours, in that you'll tend to believe a story like this because you believe in a demon army while I tend to disbelieve them because I haven't met a demon.

You disbelieve because you disbelieve. You could really meet a demon or not, and think it was either real, or not and psychosis, and it may be either, so evidence of meeting one wouldn't really affect your disbelief if you held onto it. Unless you are saying a truly psychotic and false episode of meeting a demon would affect your belief.

Therefore such personal experience may have nothing to do with validity of belief, in truth validity could go either way.

The Pixie
02-09-2014, 05:13 AM
You disbelieve because you disbelieve. You could really meet a demon or not, and think it was either real, or not and psychosis, and it may be either, so evidence of meeting one wouldn't really affect your disbelief if you held onto it. Unless you are saying a truly psychotic and false episode of meeting a demon would affect your belief.

Therefore such personal experience may have nothing to do with validity of belief, in truth validity could go either way.
And you believe because you believe. You could meet a psychotic person, and be convinced it was a demon.

whag
02-09-2014, 06:38 AM
You disbelieve because you disbelieve. You could really meet a demon or not, and think it was either real, or not and psychosis, and it may be either, so evidence of meeting one wouldn't really affect your disbelief if you held onto it. Unless you are saying a truly psychotic and false episode of meeting a demon would effect your belief

again, my disbelief and your belief--two opposed presuppositions--cancels out Desert Berean's objection to my bringing this up. it assumes you'll always believe a demon story now matter how spurious it appears to me, and i'll always disbelieve one no matter how convincing it sounds to you.


Therefore such personal experience may have nothing to do with validity of belief, in truth validity could go either way.

I agree. a possessed person's behavior would be indistinguishable from the behavior of a non-possessed psychotic person.

whag
02-09-2014, 06:42 AM
First, I apologize... I don't always explain that I'm almost deaf, so audio files don't help me. I responded to you solely because I gathered you didn't believe in demons.

Secondly, why are you discussing this at all? Especially since it appears you don't know the usual Christian view about demons anyway?

apology accepted. again, my disbelief in incarnate demons and demon possession is irrelevent to the fact that Licona told an amazing story with fascinating implications. i apologize for exploring the subtext of that story.

lilpixieofterror
02-09-2014, 04:52 PM
apology accepted. again, my disbelief in incarnate demons and demon possession is irrelevent to the fact that Licona told an amazing story with fascinating implications. i apologize for exploring the subtext of that story.

The problem is whag, nobody believes you are interested in the story, but most believe you are here to troll and don't waste their time with you. Why should I or others waste our time when it is clear you're not interested in hearing anybody out anyway?

whag
02-09-2014, 05:01 PM
The problem is whag, nobody believes you are interested in the story, but most believe you are here to troll and don't waste their time with you. Why should I or others waste our time when it is clear you're not interested in hearing anybody out anyway?

hearing anybody out on what?

lilpixieofterror
02-09-2014, 05:12 PM
hearing anybody out on what?

Anything. You're the one that post trolling little comments like, "This is your brain on Christianity." Why should anybody waste their time on you?

whag
02-09-2014, 09:08 PM
Anything. You're the one that post trolling little comments like, "This is your brain on Christianity." Why should anybody waste their time on you?

you mean waste their time explaining how that's plausible? I brought it up because it's a funny story, not because I'm on the fence about it. I don't believe a devil assigns demons to threaten inconsequential villages because a few Muslims got converted. That is silly.

if that were true, the US would be overrun with ghouls. there are conversions aplenty all the livelong day here.

lilpixieofterror
02-10-2014, 05:39 PM
you mean waste their time explaining how that's plausible? I brought it up because it's a funny story, not because I'm on the fence about it. I don't believe a devil assigns demons to threaten inconsequential villages because a few Muslims got converted. That is silly.

AKA you're here to mock and insult and thus a waste of time. Thanks for admitting to being an obvious troll.


if that were true, the US would be overrun with ghouls. there are conversions aplenty all the livelong day here.

How do you know we are not? Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters? The road to hell is not one full of signs and guidepost. In reality, the road to hell is such a gentle slide that you hardly notice until it is too late. That is a major point that CS Lewis made in that book. Do you really think most or all demons would be making huge shows of it or are they much more sinister then that?

whag
02-11-2014, 08:52 AM
AKA you're here to mock and insult and thus a waste of time. Thanks for admitting to being an obvious troll.



How do you know we are not?

Um, because those who agree that possession happens say it's rare. I don't see naked men running maniacly through the neighborhood possessed by demons. That's how the bible describes possession. If you saw that, you and Licona would conclude it's a demon possessed person that needs an exorcism. Whereas I'd conclude that person needed treatment for mental illness.


Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters? The road to hell is not one full of signs and guidepost. In reality, the road to hell is such a gentle slide that you hardly notice until it is too late. That is a major point that CS Lewis made in that book. Do you really think most or all demons would be making huge shows of it or are they much more sinister then that?

Yes, I've read screwtape letters. It's about hell's bumbling operation to secure souls on earth. It's a funny book that's meant to be satire. Do I think it represents reality? Well let's walk through the book and discuss it. I'm game. Should we start with chapter one?

lilpixieofterror
02-11-2014, 08:09 PM
Um, because those who agree that possession happens say it's rare. I don't see naked men running maniacly through the neighborhood possessed by demons. That's how the bible describes possession. If you saw that, you and Licona would conclude it's a demon possessed person that needs an exorcism. Whereas I'd conclude that person needed treatment for mental illness.

Where is it stated that the majority of demons would want to possess everybody or do it very often? Second, why at you assuming that I would assume it is a 'demon possession'? Where did you get that idea from or do you have some kind of magical mind reading powers and automatically know what my responses are going to be?


Yes, I've read screwtape letters. It's about hell's bumbling operation to secure souls on earth. It's a funny book that's meant to be satire. Do I think it represents reality? Well let's walk through the book and discuss it. I'm game. Should we start with chapter one?

A book being a satire doesn't mean it doesn't teach you valuable things whag. It teaches a very important lesson about how evil often works. Wormwood is the classic example of how demons would be seen in culture. He wants to get people to do very evil things while Screwtape is the opposite. He says the best path to hell is the gradual one. What one do you think works better and one what is the most sinister one?

BTW No I do not want to discuss the book, chapter by chapter with you because I think you're a troll that doesn't get the message of the book to begin with.

whag
02-11-2014, 10:33 PM
Where is it stated that the majority of demons would want to possess everybody or do it very often?

You asked "How do you know we're not [overun with demons]?" I gave you my answer to that.


Second, why at you assuming that I would assume it is a 'demon possession'? Where did you get that idea from or do you have some kind of magical mind reading powers and automatically know what my responses are going to be?

the context has been demon possession and their accounts. you brought up the existence of non-manifest demons. I'm not arguing with that.

the context is manifestation and motive. it's not just "are demons currently floating about us" but "what powers they have and how they affect our senses." Listen to Licona's story. read about exorcism accounts.




A book being a satire doesn't mean it doesn't teach you valuable things whag. It teaches a very important lesson about how evil often works. Wormwood is the classic example of how demons would be seen in culture. He wants to get people to do very evil things while Screwtape is the opposite. He says the best path to hell is the gradual one. What one do you think works better and one what is the most sinister one?

they both sound sinister. going fast like Justin Beiber works great. going slow like Mel Gibson is great, too. i'm not sure what you're asking.


BTW No I do not want to discuss the book, chapter by chapter with you because I think you're a troll that doesn't get the message of the book to begin with.

Since you can't understand the context of this discussion, that'd honestly be for the best.