God, please save me from your followers.

[Beanieboy]

I've been banned (thank Buddha) from another, for lack of another word "christian" web site for questioning some very questionable uses of the bible.

For example, a favorite is Rom 12:9 Cling to what is good Hate what is evil. I'm a 'mo, and therefore evil, so it is ok to hate me.

Except Romans 12:10 and beyond is instruction of how to live in harmony, to bless your enemies, to feed you enemies if they are hungry, return curse with blessing.

Searching for slogans, the following have been offered:
Serving Righteous anger since 1997
Where the Righteous Rejoice when they see the vengence
Telling people to go to hell since 1997
Dividing Christians with Truth

And TheologyWeb would be, as they referred to it, as a "mamby pamby Christian" site because you act, well, civil.

Why are there such polar opposites, and how and why can such anger, condemnation and vengefulness come from those who claim to love Jesus?

This is not simply this site. A conservative local radio station sees Christianity as "handholding people to hell" or being judgemental, lack compassion and be rude in the name of God.

So, how can Christianity produce such polar extremes?

[spiritmech]

I'm not sure why this is in PoliSci, but you won't get banned here for asking this type of question.

For me, I'm just not threatened by these type of questions. My faith isn't really shaken by the specter of hypocrisy. Are Christians hypocrites? Of course. That's why we need a Savior.

Welcome to TWeb. Good luck in not getting banned here.
sm

[patteeu]

Ban him before he converts us all.




:teeth:

[Beanieboy]

It's in PolySci because it's kind of a social issue as well - how christians and nonchristians treat one another, and it has Political overlap (some called for going OldSkool and killing gay people per/law of Moses), or minor things, like preventing stations from showing The Book of Daniel. I wasn't really sure where to put it.

But, I'm rather confused how so much anger could come from one Christian, and the opposite from another.
I mean "where the righteous rejoice when they see the vengence"?
When asked who they worshipped, Rambo or Jesus, they said, "Jesus will be like Rambo when he comes back and destroys the evil, like you!"

Is there like a time portal that they found in the Dark Ages, or the state of the church, or what?

[Duder]

I've been banned (thank Buddha) from another, for lack of another word "christian" web site for questioning some very questionable uses of the bible.

For example, a favorite is Rom 12:9 Cling to what is good Hate what is evil. I'm a 'mo, and therefore evil, so it is ok to hate me.

Except Romans 12:10 and beyond is instruction of how to live in harmony, to bless your enemies, to feed you enemies if they are hungry, return curse with blessing.

Searching for slogans, the following have been offered:
Serving Righteous anger since 1997
Where the Righteous Rejoice when they see the vengence
Telling people to go to hell since 1997
Dividing Christians with Truth

And TheologyWeb would be, as they referred to it, as a "mamby pamby Christian" site because you act, well, civil.

Why are there such polar opposites, and how and why can such anger, condemnation and vengefulness come from those who claim to love Jesus?

This is not simply this site. A conservative local radio station sees Christianity as "handholding people to hell" or being judgemental, lack compassion and be rude in the name of God.

So, how can Christianity produce such polar extremes?

Howdy, Bean!

Why in the world did you want to hang out in That Other Placetm for as long as you did (you evil 'mo)?

You will soon notice that this board is much more lively, vibrant, interesting and busy than The Other Placetm because we enjoy an intellectually laissez faire environment. Intellectually, The Other Placetm is a command environent the highest duty of which is to "smack down" those who float unapproved ideas - by argument when possible, and by intimidation or censorship when necessary.

The Other Placetm calls this a mamby-pamby board because you do not often hear the idea expressed here that we should stone people to death because of who they are or what they think. We do not try to be (to paraphrase their favorite slogan) "nastier than God".

You will also find that your opinions will be more sharply challenged by people who are generally smarter and more eductated over here, so stay on your toes.

Looking forward to mixing it up with you in these debate threads!

An Old Friend,

Duder


PS - Did you hear they banned Wickwoman? Wickwoman! Pretty soon, they'll have no one to left to argue with and no controversy to discuss.

[Teallaura]

Romans 10:9 isn't referring to people...:no: Most times, you don't refer to people as a 'what' but a 'who'. It means to avoid/shun evil things and doing evil (ie sinning). It doesn't give permission to hate other people.

As to why you got banned, that's their perogative. Being jerks is not what it's all about - but being human doesn't go away just because you choose to follow Christ (darn shame, too. Life would be sooo much easier if it did. :yes:). I doubt seriously you'd care to account for all the hypocrisy found within Buddism - or that you could.

Assuming they did anything wrong (turn the other cheek is not an invitation to let people use you for a doormat - and I don't know their side of the story. Maybe you acted like a jerk - and you could just as easily have been at fault - don't know, merely allowing for it), they sinned. Hopefully, they'll realize that and repent - and learn from the mistake. Every Christian goes through that - you aren't instantly 'perfect person' when you come to Christ. it's part of the process of santification - or in simpler terms, growing up. Legalism - and license - are often signs of immaturity in one's faith. It takes time - and quite a bit of stumbling, unfortunately, to learn to walk humbly with the Lord.

As to the question of polar opposites - that's as natural as breathing. We come to Christ from where - and who - we are. People is just different. They'll see and understand things differently and it will take time to come together - if they ever do. What's important to one won't be to another. The only critical issues are the tenets - we can disagree on tons of other stuff with no one being wrong in the moral sense. It just depends on the person as to what they will regard as the most important. Sometimes they'll get it really wrong, and sometimes not.

We call it being human.

[patteeu]

Ban him for the disloyalty of posting on another Christian board.





:teeth:

[Beanieboy]

Howdy, Bean!
PS - Did you hear they banned Wickwoman? Wickwoman! Pretty soon, they'll have no one to left to argue with and no controversy to discuss.

Yes, they banned her. She was a heretic for saying, "I hear a bird singing, and I think of God singing." "GOD IS NOT A BIRD! Heaven forbid that one see God reflected in all things.

And I got banned because they said I was annoying (challenged them and pointed out biblical misuse), asked one poster why he collected $3000 for an, um, outreach to homosexuals that would say, "Homos Are Perverts", yet 4 months later, still no billboard, etc.

But, I've been here before. It's nice to back, and nice to see people walking the talk.

However, I still don't understand how one could ask Jesus into their heart, and it become hard as stone, almost hateful.
Even as a Buddhist I don't understand that.

[Teallaura]

Ban him for the disloyalty of posting on another Christian board.





:teeth:


No, no, Pat, first we confront him with a few witnesses....:sad:

Then, if he keeps it up, we bring it before the entire site...:hmph:

That fails, we burn him as a heretic!!!!!:grin:







________________________
*I just know I'm leaving out a step or two - but I really haven't been to a good heretic roast in the longest time.... :grin:

[Beanieboy]

As to the question of polar opposites - that's as natural as breathing. We come to Christ from where - and who - we are. People is just different. They'll see and understand things differently and it will take time to come together - if they ever do. What's important to one won't be to another. The only critical issues are the tenets - we can disagree on tons of other stuff with no one being wrong in the moral sense. It just depends on the person as to what they will regard as the most important. Sometimes they'll get it really wrong, and sometimes not.

We call it being human.

I understand getting something wrong, and being human.

But - ok, here's a quote: The best way to save homos is to put their head in a guillatine. It was explained that that would curb people from being gay.
I said, But it won't lead people to God, unless being heterosexual will get you saved.

Now, that isn't an OOPS. That's a - um, dude, you should really see someone about that - mistake.

I can't think of many buddhists that would on one hand, suggest detatchment of material things and being in the present, while another group would use texts to support having things and thinking only of the future, or buddhists who live in harmony, while others want to kill everyone.

[patteeu]

No, no, Pat, first we confront him with a few witnesses....:sad:

Then, if he keeps it up, we bring it before the entire site...:hmph:

That fails, we burn him as a heretic!!!!!:grin:









________________________
*I just know I'm leaving out a step or two - but I really haven't been to a good heretic roast in the longest time.... :grin:

Yes, burning him as a heretic sounds like it could make for a fun party. I can wait. :wink:

[Teallaura]

I understand getting something wrong, and being human.

But - ok, here's a quote: The best way to save homos is to put their head in a guillatine. It was explained that that would curb people from being gay.
I said, But it won't lead people to God, unless being heterosexual will get you saved.

Now, that isn't an OOPS. That's a - um, dude, you should really see someone about that - mistake.

I can't think of many buddhists that would on one hand, suggest detatchment of material things and being in the present, while another group would use texts to support having things and thinking only of the future, or buddhists who live in harmony, while others want to kill everyone.


You haven't read much about the Buddist/Hindu conflicts in India, huh?

Be that as it may, there comes a point where you are talking not about genuine Christians, but Christian identifiers* - people who claim to be Christian, but simply aren't. Maybe your quote is of someone lashing out in anger (yeah, that happens too - people do say things they don't really mean and later regret. Dumb people refuse to retract them, so it can be hard to tell which it is). Maybe it's someone really new to the faith (doubtful) - but most likely, with them that far removed from Christian principles, you're talking about an identifier.




________________________
*Not to be confused with the Christian Identity Movement - although they would be identifiers as well. Identifiers identify strongly with an organization (such as the Democratic Party), belief system (such as Christianity) or other group or movement, but when evaluated they do not share the principles, values or views of the group with which they identify.

[Beanieboy]

You haven't read much about the Buddist/Hindu conflicts in India, huh?

Be that as it may, there comes a point where you are talking not about genuine Christians, but Christian identifiers* - people who claim to be Christian, but simply aren't. Maybe your quote is of someone lashing out in anger (yeah, that happens too - people do say things they don't really mean and later regret. Dumb people refuse to retract them, so it can be hard to tell which it is). Maybe it's someone really new to the faith (doubtful) - but most likely, with them that far removed from Christian principles, you're talking about an identifier.




________________________
*Not to be confused with the Christian Identity Movement - although they would be identifiers as well. Identifiers identify strongly with an organization (such as the Democratic Party), belief system (such as Christianity) or other group or movement, but when evaluated they do not share the principles, values or views of the group with which they identify.

I don't know if that is necessarily true, because the bible is used to back up their beliefs.
If you look to the psalms, for example, David brags about how much he hates the enemies of God.

[Aletheia]

I understand getting something wrong, and being human.

But - ok, here's a quote: The best way to save homos is to put their head in a guillatine. It was explained that that would curb people from being gay.
I said, But it won't lead people to God, unless being heterosexual will get you saved.

Now, that isn't an OOPS. That's a - um, dude, you should really see someone about that - mistake.

I can't think of many buddhists that would on one hand, suggest detatchment of material things and being in the present, while another group would use texts to support having things and thinking only of the future, or buddhists who live in harmony, while others want to kill everyone.

Honestly, I think many Christians would do well to focus a bit more on orthopraxy instead of just orthodoxy. Belief is important, but I'm amazed at how many Christians miss what Jesus asked us to DO, as his followers.

[technomage]

But, I'm rather confused how so much anger could come from one Christian, and the opposite from another.

Before Buddha was enlightened, when the Bodhi tree was still called the pipal, he attempted to find a way free from his ignorance and misery by many methods. He denied the flesh, nearly starving himself. He practiced various methods of physical and mental austerity, surpassing his teachers and even the masters of his day. Yet he was still dissatisfied. If one had encountered Siddhartha during this time, it is likely that they would have encountered an angry man, bitter towards those who achieved enlightenment, and bitter towards those who did not seek it.

Many of us stumble on the Way--and Christians are not immune to this. But just as one cannot measure Siddhartha's teachings by his behavior when he failed, one cannot measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

[Teallaura]

I don't know if that is necessarily true, because the bible is used to back up their beliefs.
If you look to the psalms, for example, David brags about how much he hates the enemies of God.

It depends on context - what is translated as 'hate' often isn't what we would define as hate in modern English. But that gets into language issues that others are better qualified to address.

If you want to discuss the Scripture per se, start a thread in General Theistics.

[Beanieboy]

Before Buddha was enlightened, when the Bodhi tree was still called the pipal, he attempted to find a way free from his ignorance and misery by many methods. He denied the flesh, nearly starving himself. He practiced various methods of physical and mental austerity, surpassing his teachers and even the masters of his day. Yet he was still dissatisfied. If one had encountered Siddhartha during this time, it is likely that they would have encountered an angry man, bitter towards those who achieved enlightenment, and bitter towards those who did not seek it.

Many of us stumble on the Way--and Christians are not immune to this. But just as one cannot measure Siddhartha's teachings by his behavior when he failed, one cannot measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

Agreed. I can't measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

But it is quite another thing to whole groups of likeminded individuals claim that they hate you in the name of God, that love and hate are not exclusive. to attack a nonbeliever almost like a pack of wolves.

That is my concern - that it is not one Siddhartha that was angry and bitter, but many people together in a perceived group, who are vicious, and angry.

Let's take an extreme example.
Fred Phelps.
He doesn't represent all Christians.
But he uses the word of God to protest anyone who allows gay people anywhere near the church, protests funerals, etc.
As does his entire family. It's a group of people.

Go to the web, and you will find Christians that have come together in groups and think that way, and would say that you, for example, are handholding people alll the way to hell, and a false christian.

How do you answer that?

I wish that it was one hornet.
But it's a whole nest, with others just around the corner.

It's not a reflection on Christianity, but they will swear to you that they are Christians - or even that they are doing the work of God, and you are sitting idly by as people walk over a cliff, walk the path to hell, etc.

It's like like they are on a path and have stumbled, but live here in this place of condemnation of others in society.

[Duder]

Before Buddha was enlightened, when the Bodhi tree was still called the pipal, he attempted to find a way free from his ignorance and misery by many methods. He denied the flesh, nearly starving himself. He practiced various methods of physical and mental austerity, surpassing his teachers and even the masters of his day. Yet he was still dissatisfied. If one had encountered Siddhartha during this time, it is likely that they would have encountered an angry man, bitter towards those who achieved enlightenment, and bitter towards those who did not seek it.

Many of us stumble on the Way--and Christians are not immune to this. But just as one cannot measure Siddhartha's teachings by his behavior when he failed, one cannot measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

Hello, CoM -

Having just read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha, I find your answer to Bean's frustration extremely astute. Well spoken!

[Ryokan]

I don't know if that is necessarily true, because the bible is used to back up their beliefs.
If you look to the psalms, for example, David brags about how much he hates the enemies of God.
David also had his Lieutenant killed to avoid punishment for getting freaky freaky with his wife. We are Christians, not Davidians.

[technomage]

Agreed. I can't measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

But it is quite another thing to whole groups of likeminded individuals claim that they hate you in the name of God, that love and hate are not exclusive. to attack a nonbeliever almost like a pack of wolves.

That is my concern - that it is not one Siddhartha that was angry and bitter, but many people together in a perceived group, who are vicious, and angry.

I know ... and I must admit that I am not comfortable there, to tell the truth. But as for "how do you answer that," the only answer that I, personally, can give is to show them by example the love of God.

People who hate do not choose their hatred logically: therefore, logic will not avail in turning them from their hatred. Their choice to hate was driven by the hatred that is already within them, and the only possible counter for such hatred is to return love for their hatred.

I cannot argue those "Christians" who chose to hate into being more loving. But I can show them, by example, that love is a superior way. If they listen to that example, then all is well--I have regained my brother who stumbled on the Way. But even if they do not listen--even if "Christian identifiers" (to borrow Teal's term) turn their hatred on me--then whether or not they change their minds, I will have still done what is right before God.

And in the end, that is all I can do.

[Cynic Sage]

I've been banned (thank Buddha) from another, for lack of another word "christian" web site for questioning some very questionable uses of the bible.

For example, a favorite is Rom 12:9 Cling to what is good Hate what is evil. I'm a 'mo, and therefore evil, so it is ok to hate me.

Except Romans 12:10 and beyond is instruction of how to live in harmony, to bless your enemies, to feed you enemies if they are hungry, return curse with blessing.

Wow, what a whackjob forum. What's it's name (don't mention it here for fear of causing a forum war, just PM me).


And TheologyWeb would be, as they referred to it, as a "mamby pamby Christian" site because you act, well, civil.

If they think Tweb is "namby-pamby" I don't wanna know what the other forum is like. :eek:

Why are there such polar opposites, and how and why can such anger, condemnation and vengefulness come from those who claim to love Jesus?

This is not simply this site. A conservative local radio station sees Christianity as "handholding people to hell" or being judgemental, lack compassion and be rude in the name of God.

So, how can Christianity produce such polar extremes?

Although I do believe in a time where anger can be justified, such as toward injustice (that is the true meaning of "hate what is evil, cling to what is good"). The short answer to your question is that there are all sorts of people in this world.

[Champagne]

Well I think the real problem is that the definition of "real" Christianity changes. Look at Martin Luther and John Calvin. No Christians today would say they were not real Christians, but most Christians would seek to disassociate themselves from Luther's anti-semitism and from Calvin's zeal to burn heretics at the stake...

They had the same Bible we do. So did the Crusaders.

It depends on how you interpret the Bible and on which parts you focus on. A violent society will focus on the God of the OT overcoming his enemies, whereas a more humanistic society will focus on Jesus' ethical teachings.

I like that part in "Pulp Fiction" where Samuel L. Jackson quotes from Exodus when he's about ready to blow off the heads of his enemies.

This is not just a case of some Christians being sinful, infantile and needing to grow- it's trying to decipher what it is Christianity really stands for. Is it about loving your enemies, or defeating them? ALlowing pluralism and religious tolerance, or burning heretics at the stake?

If someone claims, "Oh yes, I'm a Christian," but then you discover he worships Satan, well then obviously he's not a Christian and he doesn't speak for Christianity.

But when someone claims he's a Christian, and also wants to stone gays and burn witches, sees nothing wrong with slavery per se as long as the slaves are treated "humanely", and gets off on Armageddon, well is he the face of Christianity?

What about someone who says he's a Christian and is a pacifist, anti-death penalty, pro-welfare and generally, a wimpy type of guy? Is he the face of Christianity?

It can be very confusing to people who are not Christians who are seeking what is real Christianity. Will the real Christians please stand up?

[James Peter]

I don't know if that is necessarily true, because the bible is used to back up their beliefs.
If you look to the psalms, for example, David brags about how much he hates the enemies of God.

Well, believe it or not christianity isn't the bible. And it certainly isn't bad exegesis of the bible. Now I'll concede that David did rejoice over his enemies and understood their defeat as his vindication and salvation (which it was) but to then go and follow that example rather than the example of Jesus or the Apostles. I'd say there is a place for righteous anger but there is a difference between righteous anger and hatred. Afterall isn't our struggle supposed to not be against flesh and blood...?

[Beanieboy]

David also had his Lieutenant killed to avoid punishment for getting freaky freaky with his wife. We are Christians, not Davidians.

Agreed. But don't christians believe that the Bible is the word of God?
So, if David sings, "blessed is he who takes their little ones and dashes them against the rocks," that that is the word of God?
Does God apparently approve of Israel killing neighboring nations?

Not the way of Christ - but the way of OT God, so can you see how someone could twist it and support it 100%?

[spiritmech]

What about someone who says he's a Christian and is a pacifist, anti-death penalty, pro-welfare and generally, a wimpy type of guy? Is he the face of Christianity?


You know, we love Amazing Rando. Even if he is a little wimpy.
sm

















I'm joking!!!!!
:tongue:

[Snarf]

Agreed. I can't measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

But it is quite another thing to whole groups of likeminded individuals claim that they hate you in the name of God, that love and hate are not exclusive. to attack a nonbeliever almost like a pack of wolves.

That is my concern - that it is not one Siddhartha that was angry and bitter, but many people together in a perceived group, who are vicious, and angry.

Let's take an extreme example.
Fred Phelps.
He doesn't represent all Christians.
But he uses the word of God to protest anyone who allows gay people anywhere near the church, protests funerals, etc.
As does his entire family. It's a group of people.

Go to the web, and you will find Christians that have come together in groups and think that way, and would say that you, for example, are handholding people alll the way to hell, and a false christian.

How do you answer that?

I wish that it was one hornet.
But it's a whole nest, with others just around the corner.

It's not a reflection on Christianity, but they will swear to you that they are Christians - or even that they are doing the work of God, and you are sitting idly by as people walk over a cliff, walk the path to hell, etc.

It's like like they are on a path and have stumbled, but live here in this place of condemnation of others in society.
Part of the problem is that how one practices Christianity is heavily influenced by culture. Unfortunately, many don't want to admit this because it undercuts their claim that all they believe is only from the Bible.

[Beanieboy]

It can be very confusing to people who are not Christians who are seeking what is real Christianity. Will the real Christians please stand up?

And there are the blurred lines as well.
I suppose most people saw Narnia.
There was a very fundamentalist bent to it, so it didn't sit right with me. My friend said, "What did you think" and I said, "About the analogy to Christianity?"

And the analogy is that there are two camps - the good people (christians) and everyone else.

And then they go to war and try and kill each other.

Even Santa shows up and says, "Gifts, kids!"
"Weapons! That's Santa..."

Our local reviewer called it Left Behind in Wonderland, and it has that same "can't wait until we kill all the heathens" feel to it.

And you look around and think - yikes - has everyone given up on compassion, and love?

But I suppose those are the "meek" of the earth, and the others just have louder voices.

[Sparko]

seems like this is turning into a "yeah, but" thread. No matter what answers anyone give you, beanie you just go "...yeah, but what about...?" and go on down the rabbit trail.

Teal gave you excellent answers. Christians are people too. Some are good Christians and some are BAD Christians and some who claim to be Christian but clearly are not. There are immature Christians and mature Christians. There are normal Christians and completely wacko Christians.

becoming a Christian doesn't automagically confer you perfection. It is a growth process, called sanctification. We believe a true Christian gets indwelt by the Holy Spirit who then leads and guides a person to become more and more like Jesus wants us to be. But the HS never forces us. We are always encourages to study the bible and look back at ourselves to see if we are 'more' godly now than we were, say, 1 year ago.

And we all have different struggles that we have to overcome. Some may be fighting drug addictions, or sexual addictions. Others may be fighting with anger issues, etc.

I know I have my own struggles -- I tend to get pretty sarcastic on this site and let my frustration get the better of me and I will tell people off. I realize that is a problem and I do try to work on it, but I am not perfect. But sometimes they actually need telling off. Its a balancing act.

and "meek" doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead. It means showing patience and being humble. Not shy and withdrawn or letting people push you around.

I still have quite a ways to go in the patience and humble areas too. :wink:

[Carpedm9587]

Howdy, Bean!

Why in the world did you want to hang out in That Other Placetm for as long as you did (you evil 'mo)?

You will soon notice that this board is much more lively, vibrant, interesting and busy than The Other Placetm because we enjoy an intellectually laissez faire environment. Intellectually, The Other Placetm is a command environent the highest duty of which is to "smack down" those who float unapproved ideas - by argument when possible, and by intimidation or censorship when necessary.

The Other Placetm calls this a mamby-pamby board because you do not often hear the idea expressed here that we should stone people to death because of who they are or what they think. We do not try to be (to paraphrase their favorite slogan) "nastier than God".

You will also find that your opinions will be more sharply challenged by people who are generally smarter and more eductated over here, so stay on your toes.

Looking forward to mixing it up with you in these debate threads!

An Old Friend,

Duder


PS - Did you hear they banned Wickwoman? Wickwoman! Pretty soon, they'll have no one to left to argue with and no controversy to discuss.

I have to say, I have been very impressed with TWeb. I disagree with the core philosophies of most of the folks here, but I have found it amazing that I can post what I think without being herded off the site. And MOST of the folks I talk with are civil and polite.

Well, there is that Patt, guy. And Darth E could use some retooling around the edges. And then there's RP, who seriously needs to be restricted in his word count. And of course there's LGM, who should have his smilies removed surgically. Then of course there is Sea, who is barely forgivable for eliminating my favorite avatar.

Actually, now that I think about it. This place is full of losers. What the heck am I hanging out here for? :teeth:

Michel

[technomage]

Actually, now that I think about it. This place is full of losers. What the heck am I hanging out here for? :teeth:

And I didn't make the "loser" list by name?

You twerp!



















:teeth:

[Carpedm9587]

Hello, CoM -

Having just read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha, I find your answer to Bean's frustration extremely astute. Well spoken!

Is it good? It's been on my shelf for 15 years and I just never seem to get around to reading it.

Michel

[Carpedm9587]

I know ... and I must admit that I am not comfortable there, to tell the truth. But as for "how do you answer that," the only answer that I, personally, can give is to show them by example the love of God.

People who hate do not choose their hatred logically: therefore, logic will not avail in turning them from their hatred. Their choice to hate was driven by the hatred that is already within them, and the only possible counter for such hatred is to return love for their hatred.

I cannot argue those "Christians" who chose to hate into being more loving. But I can show them, by example, that love is a superior way. If they listen to that example, then all is well--I have regained my brother who stumbled on the Way. But even if they do not listen--even if "Christian identifiers" (to borrow Teal's term) turn their hatred on me--then whether or not they change their minds, I will have still done what is right before God.

And in the end, that is all I can do.

I am reminded of MLK...

[technomage]

I am reminded of MLK...
Considering my feelings about Dr. King, I'll take that as high praise indeed. Thank you, my friend.

[Sparko]

I have to say, I have been very impressed with TWeb. I disagree with the core philosophies of most of the folks here, but I have found it amazing that I can post what I think without being herded off the site. And MOST of the folks I talk with are civil and polite.

Well, there is that Patt, guy. And Darth E could use some retooling around the edges. And then there's RP, who seriously needs to be restricted in his word count. And of course there's LGM, who should have his smilies removed surgically. Then of course there is Sea, who is barely forgivable for eliminating my favorite avatar.

Actually, now that I think about it. This place is full of losers. What the heck am I hanging out here for? :teeth:

Michel

whoops. You have gone too far now. Off you go!

but seriously, what good would it do to get rid of everyone who disagreed with us? All we would be left with would be a mutual appreciation society that sat around patting ourselves on the back, not a debate site. If anyone read that thread where Troy came in spamming for people to come to his site and debate his proof for God and then he banned anyone who dared disagree with him, you will see what that philosophy will do for ya. He has like 17 people on the site and nobody even posts. Dead site.

[Carpedm9587]

And I didn't make the "loser" list by name?

You twerp!



















:teeth:

Oh my. How could I have forgotten CoM, who's very name leaves me, umm... confused. Not to mention has callous abandonment of heathenism for the dark side. GASP!

Better? :yes:

[technomage]

Oh my. How could I have forgotten CoM, who's very name leaves me, umm... confused. Not to mention has callous abandonment of heathenism for the dark side. GASP!

Better? :yes:
*happy sigh* Vindication! Just one more step in my eventual goal of taking over the world.

[Sparko]

*happy sigh* Vindication! Just one more step in my eventual goal of taking over the world.


Get thee behind me CoM! Haven't you read my blog? I am well on my way to taking over TWEB and then the whole internet and the world!

[Carpedm9587]

whoops. You have gone too far now. Off you go!

but seriously, what good would it do to get rid of everyone who disagreed with us? All we would be left with would be a mutual appreciation society that sat around patting ourselves on the back, not a debate site. If anyone read that thread where Troy came in spamming for people to come to his site and debate his proof for God and then he banned anyone who dared disagree with him, you will see what that philosophy will do for ya. He has like 17 people on the site and nobody even posts. Dead site.

Well, Sparky, .. umm.. I mean, Sparko, I have to say I agree with you on this one. I know, I know. If I take my meds I'm sure the feeling will pass. After all, I had gas earlier, and that feeling passed with a little effort.

Where was I?

Oh yeah - agreeing with Sparky... umm... Sparko.

I think it's the teacher in me. Learning comes from differences. Place someone in a context where they are in harmony with everything about them, I find they learn squat. Trade "you're so awesome" posts with the folks you share the most in common with all day long, and you are left feeling pretty good, but haven't necessarily learned a lot.

Learning happens when there is a difference between what is inside and what is outside any given mind. It happens when someone says something I never heard before - so I didn't know it. It happens when someone says something I disagree with, and have to think my way through why and how I do.

THAT, if you ask me, is the power of TWeb. And it also happens to be thepower of the American (and other) democratic system.

Michel

[Beanieboy]

seems like this is turning into a "yeah, but" thread. No matter what answers anyone give you, beanie you just go "...yeah, but what about...?" and go on down the rabbit trail.

Teal gave you excellent answers. Christians are people too. Some are good Christians and some are BAD Christians and some who claim to be Christian but clearly are not. There are immature Christians and mature Christians. There are normal Christians and completely wacko Christians.

becoming a Christian doesn't automagically confer you perfection. It is a growth process, called sanctification. We believe a true Christian gets indwelt by the Holy Spirit who then leads and guides a person to become more and more like Jesus wants us to be. But the HS never forces us. We are always encourages to study the bible and look back at ourselves to see if we are 'more' godly now than we were, say, 1 year ago.

And we all have different struggles that we have to overcome. Some may be fighting drug addictions, or sexual addictions. Others may be fighting with anger issues, etc.

I know I have my own struggles -- I tend to get pretty sarcastic on this site and let my frustration get the better of me and I will tell people off. I realize that is a problem and I do try to work on it, but I am not perfect. But sometimes they actually need telling off. Its a balancing act.

and "meek" doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead. It means showing patience and being humble. Not shy and withdrawn or letting people push you around.

I still have quite a ways to go in the patience and humble areas too. :wink:

I'm not responding "yeah, but..."
You are not addressing what I am saying.
I know that Joe Christian might like porn, and struggles with it. That's understandable.
Lisa smokes, and it's hard to quit.
Julie loses her temper, Melvin can be full of himself.
Again, all understandable.

But the place I came from would be Julie AND Melvin AND Joe AND Lisa talking about how they wanted to stone the homosexuals according to Leviticus, and how David hated his enemies, so they can too.

For example, the people on the other thread, in general subscribe to the writings of Enyart, who writes in Nicer than God:
Nicer Than God


Christians today are nicer than God.

Or at least they are trying to be so. In the Church there is a standard of niceness that Jesus failed to reach while on earth. Comparing God’s attitude and behavior with that of the Church today shows that believers are far more polite, tolerant, understanding and respectful to the wicked than God is.

The Church is also less offensive, rude and sarcastic than God’s men in the Bible were. And no Christian would ever be caught dead mocking the wicked, as God’s men in the Bible sometimes did.

Bob Enyart Live is an occasionally harsh, always confrontational, news-talk show. The program does not cater to what Christians expect, but to what non-Christians will listen to. And it turns out that non-Christians will listen to straight talk, including appropriate harshness and offensiveness. Yes, sometimes the show is intentionally offensive. But then, so was Jesus.

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.

Christ’s apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.

Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). When a Canadian started his call with a vicious, "Bob, I hate you..." The immediate and (super-) natural response was "Cool. Great! Because Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.

Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.

God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61).

Bob Enyart Live ‘turns off’ some believers, but more non-believers ‘turn it on’ than any other Christian show in a recent Nielsen ratings report. Why are so many folks, including unbelievers, tuning in to a show that some have called rude? Perhaps it is because the loving but mushy, "Brother, bless you for calling," is missing from the program. Many Christians expect that approach, which is an absolute turn off to 95% of the population. That surely is one reason heathens do not listen to Christians. There is only so much niceness a person can stand. And all along, everyone thought the unbelievers were tuning out because they were unspiritual. But it turns out that many tune out Christians because we are unspiritual, or overly spiritual. (continues...)

He has listeners and followers who agree with this. One shouldn't be Nicer than God, and start being more harsh - and so, they are.

Again, we aren't talking about one person - the evaluation of one christian nutcase.
I am discussing christian groups - large groups of likeminded people that "love God" by hating people, and pat each other on the back.

This is by no means all christians.
But it is by no means, in my opinion, christian either, and believe me, they would be quick to condemn you as a group, because you aren't judging and rebuking and being harsh enough with the heathens.

Tolerance has become a bad word with these people.
One should not be asking "Are you Nicer than God" but what have you done today that was loving? What have you done to try to live up to what you profess?

And this minority is very strong, political and vocal, but also a sickness within the body of Christ.

[Duder]

Is it good? It's been on my shelf for 15 years and I just never seem to get around to reading it.

Michel
I have no doubt that when you pick up that book - at the right time as determined by providence - it will effect you in an extrordinary way.

It is a short and easy read, but amazingly profound. Take it a chapter an evening.

[Carpedm9587]

I have no doubt that when you pick up that book - at the right time as determined by providence - it will effect you in an extrordinary way.

It is a short and easy read, but amazingly profound. Take it a chapter an evening.

I'm not big on the providence thing, but I have GOT to get you together with my wife! The two of you would hit it off very well, I'm pretty sure. She's providencing me all the time! :eek:

I'll dig for it. It's on those shelves somewhere.

Michel

[anthrogirl]

I was nearly thrown out of my Christian high school for reading Siddartha for my AP English class (my Conservative Baptist father gave me the book). They said that I had signed a statement of faith in order to attend the school, and by doing a book report on a book about the Buddha (even though it's on every college reading list), I had "clearly shown" that I was "NOT a Christian".

Ironic, eh?

I hope most Christians aren't like the administrators at my little high school, or like the folks on the other website.

pax,
ag

[Cynic Sage]

Agreed. But don't christians believe that the Bible is the word of God?
So, if David sings, "blessed is he who takes their little ones and dashes them against the rocks," that that is the word of God?
Does God apparently approve of Israel killing neighboring nations?

Not the way of Christ - but the way of OT God, so can you see how someone could twist it and support it 100%?

I don't really find the Psalm 137 passage you cited offensive, especially when considering ANE rhetoricical stylings used.

Then we have verses like this one:
Ps. 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."How barbaric!" the skeptic gasps. As noted above, this is partly answered by noting the frankness and openness of the ancient mind. Actually we do think such things often today (lest the bigoted skeptic snort, "Well, we're more advanced than those barbarians!"), if only fleetingly, and seldom repeat them in polite company. At any rate, such are simply typical expressions of Oriental imprecation. Rihbany (The Syrian Christ, 92ff) gives more modern examples: "May God burn the bones of your fathers"; "May your children be orphaned and your wife widowed", and so on. Such wishes were expressed in clan fights and quarrels in Rihbany's native Syria; and yet: "...the Syrians are not so cruel and heartless as such imprecations, especially when cast in cold type, would lead one to believe." Such petitions actually serve a purpose as a "safety-valve" through which the Oriental vents his wrath. "As a rule the Orientals quarrel much, but fight little. By the time the two antagonists have cursed and reviled each other so profusely they cool off, and thus graver consequences are averted." The Anglo-Saxon social order being more complex cannot resolve things so simply; yet the Oriental shudders at the Anglo- Saxon ready resort to fisticuffs. Who's the barbarian after all? All of us! (For comparison, sci-fi fans may consider Alan Dean Foster's book, Quozl, which depicted a peaceful society of beings who vented their hostilities through art with blood-curdling scenes of war.)

source. (http://www.tektonics.org/af/ancientmores.html)

[Aletheia]

I'm not big on the providence thing, but I have GOT to get you together with my wife! The two of you would hit it off very well, I'm pretty sure. She's providencing me all the time! :eek:

I'll dig for it. It's on those shelves somewhere.

Michel

I "synchronicity-ize" my hubby all the time. I don't think he minds though and is even amazed sometimes at how things "line up".

I second the recommendation for Siddhartha. Awesome book. The book was mentioned on Law and Order the other night and I thought "I should read that again."

Uh oh. Providence is synchronizing again. :wink:

[shunyadragon]

Before Buddha was enlightened, when the Bodhi tree was still called the pipal, he attempted to find a way free from his ignorance and misery by many methods. He denied the flesh, nearly starving himself. He practiced various methods of physical and mental austerity, surpassing his teachers and even the masters of his day. Yet he was still dissatisfied. If one had encountered Siddhartha during this time, it is likely that they would have encountered an angry man, bitter towards those who achieved enlightenment, and bitter towards those who did not seek it.

Many of us stumble on the Way--and Christians are not immune to this. But just as one cannot measure Siddhartha's teachings by his behavior when he failed, one cannot measure Christ's teachings by those who fail to live up to them.

Humanness is a virtue and a fault all should realize in the journey. As Baha'i/Buddhist-Taoist that has journeyed through many doors, and climbed many mountains I have long realized the nature of being human should not be condemned or or elevated to the station of divine authority. Nontheless the character of the believers today and in history are a reflection of the veracity and nature of the claims of a religion. The witness of the western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam does not reflect the nature of the claims of the religion. As far as a witness in history Buddhism demonstrates a far more spritiually enlighthened witness and less violent nature than Christianity. People cite examples in history to counter this, but accepting the overall picture and human fallibility, Buddhism stands out as beacon of peace.

[Sparko]

I'm not responding "yeah, but..."
You are not addressing what I am saying.
I know that Joe Christian might like porn, and struggles with it. That's understandable.
Lisa smokes, and it's hard to quit.
Julie loses her temper, Melvin can be full of himself.

OK...

Again, all understandable.

But the place I came from would be Julie AND Melvin AND Joe AND Lisa talking about how they wanted to stone the homosexuals according to Leviticus, and how David hated his enemies, so they can too.

Did you see that? It was a "yeah. But..."



For example, the people on the other thread, in general subscribe to the writings of Enyart, who writes in Nicer than God:


He has listeners and followers who agree with this. One shouldn't be Nicer than God, and start being more harsh - and so, they are.

Again, we aren't talking about one person - the evaluation of one christian nutcase.
I am discussing christian groups - large groups of likeminded people that "love God" by hating people, and pat each other on the back.

This is by no means all christians.
But it is by no means, in my opinion, christian either, and believe me, they would be quick to condemn you as a group, because you aren't judging and rebuking and being harsh enough with the heathens.

Tolerance has become a bad word with these people.
One should not be asking "Are you Nicer than God" but what have you done today that was loving? What have you done to try to live up to what you profess?

And this minority is very strong, political and vocal, but also a sickness within the body of Christ.

I answered that. There are people who CALL themselves Christian who are NOT Christian. There are BAD Christians. There are crazy Christians. There are IMMATURE Christians. There are even FAKE Christians (people who purposefully say they are Christians for the express purpose of giving Christians a bad rep) -- and there are inumerable cults of Christianity.

Just because a group of jerks call themselves Christians or even think they are Christians don't mean they ARE Christians.

Why are there so many unChristians out there? I think it is because Satan wants to confuse the unsaved and lure people into false religions, whether that is another religion, or false Christian cults and groups.

Is Enyart a real Christian? I have no idea. I have my doubts but I haven't really read much on him. I also doubt a lot of those TV preachers like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch. They seem more interested in money and fame than God. Fred Phelps? I really don't think he is a Christian. He is just filled with complete hate. He is a tool of Satan in my opinion.

But just because there are fake Christians doesn't mean that Christianity is fake.

God Bless!

--Sparko

[technomage]

Humanness is a virtue and a fault all should realize in the journey. As Baha'i/Buddhist-Taoist that has journeyed through many doors, and climbed many mountains I have long realized the nature of being human should not be condemned or or elevated to the station of divine authority. Nontheless the character of the believers today and in history are a reflection of the veracity and nature of the claims of a religion. The witness of the western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam does not reflect the nature of the claims of the religion. As far as a witness in history Buddhism demonstrates a far more spritiually enlighthened witness and less violent nature than Christianity. People cite examples in history to counter this, but accepting the overall picture and human fallibility, Buddhism stands out as beacon of peace.

Perhaps. For my part, I feel it is a grievous error to measure the attributes of a path by those who fail in their walk upon that path. And ... I try to apply that caution to all paths. I do not always succeed.

[XaositectCrayon]

someone here coined the term "boondock churches" to represent the nature of American Christianity. In a way it's going back to what it was in the lapse between the death of Bearded Josh and the starting of Catholicism. I have a fealing it's repairing itself in that sense. Of course there will be extremes, there always is extremes. Remember the Gnostics? Medeans? Cathar? They were quite extream (though as far as we know more or less peaceful unlike some of the groups we have today but there also was great wars between the Christ cults). Hopefully it will go back to a different church for every streetcorner. I think it was meant to be decentralized.

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps. For my part, I feel it is a grievous error to measure the attributes of a path by those who fail in their walk upon that path. And ... I try to apply that caution to all paths. I do not always succeed.

If you read my post carefully I do not . . . measure the attributes of a path by those who fail in their walk upon that path. Yes, I do apply caution to all paths, and generally more accepting and tolerant than Christians.

[Beanieboy]

OK...

Did you see that? It was a "yeah. But..."

I think it is you saying "yeah, but"

I say, "There are whole groups of people that want to bring back Mosaic Code and kill all the homosexuals."
Your response? "Yeah, but they aren't REAL christians."

I say, "A REAL christian is one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, who has asked someone into their heart and for forgiveness of sins, and who honors the bible.

These people use the bible, but it gives them condemnation and justified hatred. They look to the Bible, Elijah challenges the worshippers of Baal, mocks them, shows off his God, and when they lose, slaughters them all. Thats justified by God, therefore, mocking people of other religions, according to them, is justified."

Your answer?
"Yeah, but"
they aren't REAL Christians.

A REAL christian believes that Jesus is the Son of God and has asked them into their heart. These people have. In fact, they ask me to ask Jesus into my heart.

You are using the "Not a real Scottsman" fallacy.


I answered that. There are people who CALL themselves Christian who are NOT Christian. There are BAD Christians. There are crazy Christians. There are IMMATURE Christians. There are even FAKE Christians (people who purposefully say they are Christians for the express purpose of giving Christians a bad rep) -- and there are inumerable cults of Christianity.


Just because a group of jerks call themselves Christians or even think they are Christians don't mean they ARE Christians.

See? They say they are Christians, but that doesn't mean they are.
Except, they quote scripture, they believe in God, and Jesus is their Savior. So, YES they are.


Why are there so many unChristians out there? I think it is because Satan wants to confuse the unsaved and lure people into false religions, whether that is another religion, or false Christian cults and groups.

Is Enyart a real Christian? I have no idea. I have my doubts but I haven't really read much on him. I also doubt a lot of those TV preachers like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch. They seem more interested in money and fame than God. Fred Phelps? I really don't think he is a Christian. He is just filled with complete hate. He is a tool of Satan in my opinion.

But just because there are fake Christians doesn't mean that Christianity is fake.



I totally agree - a fake Christian doesn't make Christianity fake.
I never said that.

And I believe that Freddie is a blessing - he shows the hatred that some people have in the name of Jesus, and actually garnered more sympathy the gay community than anything else.

But Enyart has a following.
Pat Robertson has a following.
Pat Bucchanon has a following.

And my question is - how can one say, "Jesus, come into my heart, and fill me with your Spirit" and simultaneously be filled with condemnation, hostility, and wishing death on people? If Jesus' spirit comes into us, don't we become one with God, and he with us, and he then leads us?

So, if Sally (individual) still struggles with her smoking, that's something that will change in time. But if Sally becomes a christian, and her church leads her to believe that all nonchristians are her enemy, so she should be fearful of them, distrustful, condemning, and hateful, because they are God-Haters (yes, I've been called that), then one has to wonder - how is that possible?
How can Jesus really be living in that heart? How can the HS not convict them?

[Sparko]

I think it is you saying "yeah, but"

I say, "There are whole groups of people that want to bring back Mosaic Code and kill all the homosexuals."
Your response? "Yeah, but they aren't REAL christians."

I say, "A REAL christian is one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, who has asked someone into their heart and for forgiveness of sins, and who honors the bible.

These people use the bible, but it gives them condemnation and justified hatred. They look to the Bible, Elijah challenges the worshippers of Baal, mocks them, shows off his God, and when they lose, slaughters them all. Thats justified by God, therefore, mocking people of other religions, according to them, is justified."

Your answer?
"Yeah, but"
they aren't REAL Christians.

A REAL christian believes that Jesus is the Son of God and has asked them into their heart. These people have. In fact, they ask me to ask Jesus into my heart.

You are using the "Not a real Scottsman" fallacy.


See? They say they are Christians, but that doesn't mean they are.
Except, they quote scripture, they believe in God, and Jesus is their Savior. So, YES they are.



I totally agree - a fake Christian doesn't make Christianity fake.
I never said that.

And I believe that Freddie is a blessing - he shows the hatred that some people have in the name of Jesus, and actually garnered more sympathy the gay community than anything else.

But Enyart has a following.
Pat Robertson has a following.
Pat Bucchanon has a following.

And my question is - how can one say, "Jesus, come into my heart, and fill me with your Spirit" and simultaneously be filled with condemnation, hostility, and wishing death on people?

They can't. Beanieboy. If they are filled with that kind of hatred after claiming Jesus as their savior then they have a false faith.

Romans 13:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 2:9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.


But you also need to realize that you might be biased yourself. You might be seeing some Christians who are condemning certain sins as condemning people. For instance, I think homosexuality is a sin and I will tell people who practice that that it is a sin and they should stop. I don't hate them. I don't go around like Fred Phelps and say they should die and that they are all going to hell and thats a good thing. I try to convince them that what they are doing is a sin and that if they don't change then they might be condemning themselves to hell. Just like any other unbeliever. I will tell the same to an adulterer, a liar, etc. Anyone who doesn't have Jesus as their savior will not make it into heaven. That is not hatred or condemnation. Just stating what my faith believes:

Jesus said:

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&version=31;#fen-NIV-26127f)] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.






So, if Sally (individual) still struggles with her smoking, that's something that will change in time. But if Sally becomes a christian, and her church leads her to believe that all nonchristians are her enemy, so she should be fearful of them, distrustful, condemning, and hateful, because they are God-Haters (yes, I've been called that), then one has to wonder - how is that possible?
How can Jesus really be living in that heart? How can the HS not convict them?

Sounds like you don't really want any answer, but just want to rant about Christians. Fine.

But Jesus himself said that not everyone who claims to belong to him really does and warned of false ones. People can SAY anything and CLAIM anything. I can sleep in a garage and go "beep - beep" but that doesn't make me a car.


15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Beanieboy]

Sounds like you don't really want any answer, but just want to rant about Christians. Fine.

But Jesus himself said that not everyone who claims to belong to him really does and warned of false ones. People can SAY anything and CLAIM anything. I can sleep in a garage and go "beep - beep" but that doesn't make me a car.


15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


This is the exact quote that I have used for them.

Maybe you don't want to analyze the question.
Again, I didn't say "how can one love Jesus and think homosexuality a sin?"

I said, "How can someone ask Jesus into their heart, believe in God, yet gleefully talk about killing homosexuals, using Leviticus to back them up, and do so as a group of like minded believers? They praise God, they worship God, and then they talk about the "evil doers" and how they wish they could kill them all."

Your immediate response is taking it personally, or saying they aren't real believers, or making bizarre examples, like, "Just because I go beep beep doesn't make me a car."

They aren't simply going "beep beep." They are claiming that Jesus is the son of God, accepted them in their heart, and have asked for the forgiveness of sins. What would you call that????

So, what you refuse to analyze is - such people exist, they are vocal, and that often, people overgeneralize because they encounter these people so often - which leads me to - how can Jesus in one's heart allow this?

Your simple solution is that they aren't christian, or are false christians.

But I don't think it's that simple.

[Beanieboy]

Here's some examples:
Shortly after the New Year's Day beheading of 3 homosexuals in Saudi Arabia, the Rev. Michael Bray, who is known as the "chaplain" of the Army of God (AOG), wrote effusively about the executions. At the AOG's website, the Rev. Bray writes:

"While the Christians among us westerners would decline to emulate our Muslim friends in many ways…we can appreciate the justice they advocate regarding sodomy. Might these fellows also consider an embryonic jihad?...Open the borders! Bring in some agents of cleansing."

Here's another (they come to the U of MN as well):
http://www.oudaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/02/25/3e5ae516a1aff

It's not hard to find christians that have a "I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell, so there" attitude.

But, if is it possible to be a Christian, yet be so off base that not even God can convict you?
Can one honestly say, "I hate gay people" or whomever, and never be convicted by the Holy Spirit?

And it is the Pat Robertsons of the world, those on television, that are the most vocal, who seem to only offer condemnation from the evil "world."

One has to question - why is what Jesus taught, and what they teach so far apart from one another?

[technomage]

Your simple solution is that they aren't christian, or are false christians.

But I don't think it's that simple.

It isn't that simple, of course. But by the same token, how many people sit under a Bodhi tree, yet rise up as unenlightened as they were when they sat down?

The failure is not with Christianity, Beanie--the failure is with ourselves.

[gnosticmary]

Here's some examples:
Shortly after the New Year's Day beheading of 3 homosexuals in Saudi Arabia, the Rev. Michael Bray, who is known as the "chaplain" of the Army of God (AOG), wrote effusively about the executions. At the AOG's website, the Rev. Bray writes:

"While the Christians among us westerners would decline to emulate our Muslim friends in many ways…we can appreciate the justice they advocate regarding sodomy. Might these fellows also consider an embryonic jihad?...Open the borders! Bring in some agents of cleansing."

Here's another (they come to the U of MN as well):
http://www.oudaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/02/25/3e5ae516a1aff

It's not hard to find christians that have a "I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell, so there" attitude.

But, if is it possible to be a Christian, yet be so off base that not even God can convict you?
Can one honestly say, "I hate gay people" or whomever, and never be convicted by the Holy Spirit?

And it is the Pat Robertsons of the world, those on television, that are the most vocal, who seem to only offer condemnation from the evil "world."

One has to question - why is what Jesus taught, and what they teach so far apart from one another?





Hi beanieboy.

For those who are willing to search the scriptures for right understanding, they will find that sin is all selfish thought, word, and deed and so homosexuality is no more sinful that making money if the intent of both is personal pleasure and vanity.

Human nature dictates that we look for what is possibly wrong in others to take the focus off of our own sin - especially inner focus so we never have to consider our own evil ways.

Rest assured that most who speak of the sin of others are hypocrites, avoiding recognition of their own sin and need for repentance and thus are not true followers of Jesus.

Only the truly repentant, the pure in heart, can see clearly to assist others in uncovering their sin.

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

If we truly hate sin, then it is our own kitchen that must be cleaned first.


mary

[Beanieboy]

I agree. I believe the question that I should be asking is:

When did fundabmental Christianity become so much like the Pharisees, and so far removed from what Christ taught? And why are issues of homosexaulity or abortion such a focus, when the focus of Christ and the bible was the loving of one's neighbor?

It seems that there are many giving Christians a bad rep, and because few speak up or out, people assume that is all christians.

[Beanieboy]

Let me try another approach.

Have you ever met a Buddhist?
Generally, they are slow to anger, roll with the punches, are pretty open, calm, etc.
Meditation has a way of centering you that way.

But, would it make sense if there was a huge number of Buddhists that seemed animostic, agitated, and wanting to kill of all the "fill in the blanks"?

Wouldn't you think to yourself - if Buddhists are supposed to be so calm, and they spend time in meditation - why aren't they calm? Why do I not see that?

There was a group of people in Minneapolis who were told to visualize and chant for what they wanted. So, people chanted for cars, for houses, for a good job. Someone from the East visited them and said, "NO! You have it all wrong. You are chanting for material wealth, when you should be chanting for peace, for love, for harmony, and those things that can't be taken from you." And so, realizing they misunderstood, they were guided.

And it makes sense that those without the connection to the East and trying to start up their own Buddhist Community may be off base.

But the fundamentalist set goes back centuries, often seeming to worship the law over love.

[Sparko]

Let me try another approach.

Have you ever met a Buddhist?
Generally, they are slow to anger, roll with the punches, are pretty open, calm, etc.
Meditation has a way of centering you that way.

But, would it make sense if there was a huge number of Buddhists that seemed animostic, agitated, and wanting to kill of all the "fill in the blanks"?

Wouldn't you think to yourself - if Buddhists are supposed to be so calm, and they spend time in meditation - why aren't they calm? Why do I not see that?

Helloooo????? Who invented "kung-fu????" :clueless:

If I want to I can sit down and find a dozen examples of Buddhists killing each other and those of other religions.

It is becoming clear that no answer on your questions is good enough. I will try once more and then I will just leave you alone.





I said, "How can someone ask Jesus into their heart, believe in God, yet gleefully talk about killing homosexuals, using Leviticus to back them up, and do so as a group of like minded believers? They praise God, they worship God, and then they talk about the "evil doers" and how they wish they could kill them all."

Your immediate response is taking it personally, or saying they aren't real believers, or making bizarre examples, like, "Just because I go beep beep doesn't make me a car."

They aren't simply going "beep beep." They are claiming that Jesus is the son of God, accepted them in their heart, and have asked for the forgiveness of sins. What would you call that????

Did you read what Jesus said? Just because someone CALLS him Lord and CLAIMS to belong to him doesn't make it so. It is those who follow his teachings and do the will of God who belong to him. You can tell a real Christian by their fruit. If their fruit is hate and murder then they are NOT Christians. It's that simple. They can claim they are Christians all day long, but it doesn't make it so. They can fool many people, even themselves, but they can't fool Jesus.

If I claim Jesus is my savior, and claim I accepted him into my heart but I go around killing in his name and hating my neighbor then I am a liar. I would not be a Christian.

Again please read the following words of the Apostle John...



3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

[Beanieboy]

I agree with you.

What's strange about that passage is that they say, "didn't we perform miracles and cast out demons in your name"?

That's not a statement to the nonbeliever, but to the believer or people claim it.

But, if they don't know Jesus, then how are they able to cast out demons and perform miracles?

It's specifically those people that I'm not understanding.
I'm not clear how one can pray to God, read the bible, "perform miracles" and still be blind, or have no understanding of God. It seems like the HS would work on them, and assist them, correct them or lead them.

Are you following me?

And if they don't have Jesus in them, then who is in them?

[gnosticmary]

I agree with you.

What's strange about that passage is that they say, "didn't we perform miracles and cast out demons in your name"?

That's not a statement to the nonbeliever, but to the believer or people claim it.

But, if they don't know Jesus, then how are they able to cast out demons and perform miracles?

It's specifically those people that I'm not understanding.
I'm not clear how one can pray to God, read the bible, "perform miracles" and still be blind, or have no understanding of God. It seems like the HS would work on them, and assist them, correct them or lead them.

Are you following me?

And if they don't have Jesus in them, then who is in them?

The answer beanieboy is a false god, whom is thought to be Jesus.

If one seeks after Jesus for selfish reasons, even personal salvation, he will find himself hooked up with a false jesus.

Note in the Gospels Jesus never teaches to seek personal salvation, but to seek the kingdom and then gives parable after parable of what the kingdom is - love and forgiveness and helpfulness and kindness, and sorrow over each and every lost soul. He never gives a picture of the kingdom that is a group of people excluding those who do not agree with a list of doctrine, and even condemning them to hell if they do not come around.

Jesus teaches that if you seek the Kingdom by following His Commandments, there is no reason to fear, for the Kingdom will eventually find you. Christ will come and take you there. Thus it is by Grace that we are saved. Grace will find us if we truly believe in Jesus, trust Him, and do just as He taught.

However, if we seek for self, seeking to gain something personal, including personal salvation and thereby are ruled by selfish concerns and desires - the fruit of which is unloving and unkind thoughts, words, and deeds towards our brethren - Grace will not chose us and Jesus will not know us.

Those who know Grace, know Grace And those who are known by Christ, are known by Christ. And once salvation is found, it too is known.

Grace, Christ, and Salvation are not just ideas or expectations. They are real, now.

Beanieboy, I will send you privately a writing on the false god jesus which ends with this summation...

Essentially, any man who cleaves to Jesus for personal reasons will automatically be hooked up to the 2,000 year-old now powerful and hungry Jesus-aeon by way of his own quality of thought and desire, while the one who reveres Jesus for his life-demonstration in humble devotion to the universal PRINCIPLE that he exemplified will transcend the need to identify with the Jesus-personality altogether and evoke a response from the formless Divinity (Christ) Itself. And this is the beginning of the path that leads to Deliverance...

If I may add, the teachings of Buddha are in sync with the teachings of Jesus, for they both teach the same principals of the goodness/fruit that comes from the denying of self.

This is the path to the Kingdom.


mary

[Beanieboy]

The answer beanieboy is a false god, whom is thought to be Jesus.

If I may add, the teachings of Buddha are in sync with the teachings of Jesus, for they both teach the same principals of the goodness/fruit that comes from the denying of self.

This is the path to the Kingdom.

mary

Bold statement, and I agree with you. I am surprised how often Buddhism is like Christianity, and how it produces similar fruit, but then again, I'm probably a heretic in saying that God it like a dandelion, growing in green lawns, or the impossibility of a crack in the sidewalk.

Let me go one step farther.
Sparko is suggesting that they aren't real christians, and I'm not sure what to think of that. Part of me says that it's true, part of me says they are just misled and I really shouldn't be judging who is or isn't a christian.
But another part of me wonders if they are actually so misled, that, as the parable says, aren't really saved, don't really know God at all, or possibly, even misled by Dark Forces.
As it is often said, what better place for the devil to hide but the last place you would look - in the church.

[Sparko]

I agree with you.

What's strange about that passage is that they say, "didn't we perform miracles and cast out demons in your name"?

That's not a statement to the nonbeliever, but to the believer or people claim it.

But, if they don't know Jesus, then how are they able to cast out demons and perform miracles?

It's specifically those people that I'm not understanding.
I'm not clear how one can pray to God, read the bible, "perform miracles" and still be blind, or have no understanding of God. It seems like the HS would work on them, and assist them, correct them or lead them.

Are you following me?


Beanie. they CLAIM to have cast out demons and performed miracles in Jesus name. That doesn't mean they DID. Jesus did not acknowledge that they did, did he? He said they were false prophets and evil doers. He say "away with you"

Anyone can claim they healed someone and cast out demons (turn on Benny Hinn for half an hour and you will see that kind of stuff) and they can even put on a pretty good show, but that doesn't mean they really did it.


And if they don't have Jesus in them, then who is in them?

They are empty of the Holy Spirit. They are full of themselves.

[Beanieboy]

If this is true, then they are unsaved.
It would seem to me that those that think they are saved, but are not, are much harder to lead to Christ, than the average nonbeliever.
What do you think?

[gnosticmary]

Bold statement, and I agree with you. I am surprised how often Buddhism is like Christianity, and how it produces similar fruit, but then again, I'm probably a heretic in saying that God it like a dandelion, growing in green lawns, or the impossibility of a crack in the sidewalk.

Let me go one step farther.
Sparko is suggesting that they aren't real christians, and I'm not sure what to think of that. Part of me says that it's true, part of me says they are just misled and I really shouldn't be judging who is or isn't a christian.
But another part of me wonders if they are actually so misled, that, as the parable says, aren't really saved, don't really know God at all, or possibly, even misled by Dark Forces.
As it is often said, what better place for the devil to hide but the last place you would look - in the church.

There are very few true Christians in the world, beanieboy. As Jesus said, few would be chosen and able to enter into the Kingdom.

True Christians will have the same appearance that Jesus' disciples had. They will have forsaken all that they have and walk as He walked, given up their life and no longer seeking in this world for self, but seeking purely for the Kingdom, the Kingdom of Love and Purity and Unity, which is not of this world.

Instead we have an entire world led astray, including the millions professing to be following Jesus. This also includes most Hindus and Buddhists whose original teachings have also ungone distorted interpretations.

If you want to see the jesus false god at work, beanieboy, just quote the commandments of Jesus and see how they are discounted and even ignored using circular logic and irrational thinking. The minds of those influenced by the false jesus are imprisoned, the victims held in place by their fear and their love of this world convinced that they can still love this world and have the Love of God in them, for it is their love of this world, the seeking for self pleasure and vanity, that feeds the false gods.

These false gods are written about all over the Bible. They are quite deceiving and are what led the children of Israel astray. Jesus even said to the Pharisees that their God/Father was not the true God, but satan (or the principalities and powers of darkness).

If He were here today, He would be saying the same to the Christian authorities, and to the Hindus and Buddhists as well.

If you look to the original teachings of these religions - not the doctrines that have evolved from them - you will find, through the guidance of the One True Teacher, that they all say the same.

As Jesus said, Do not be afraid, (of hell/damnation/excommunication/crucifixion/persecution/ridicule) only believe in Me and My commandments.

edited to add: And most importantly, do not fear losing what you love in this world, including your separate physical existence, it is all temporal and will be lost anyway upon your physical death.

What is Real though, can never be lost, harmed, or taken from you.


mary

[Beanieboy]

Wow, in the food for thought department, that's a Porterhouse steak.

So, there is such a thing as a Hindu or Buddhist that enters the Kingdom?
And there are many Christians (or I should say christains, small c - the ones we are discussing) that won't enter the Kingdom of heaven?

What does one do for the latter?

[gnosticmary]

Wow, in the food for thought department, that's a Porterhouse steak.

So, there is such a thing as a Hindu or Buddhist that enters the Kingdom?
And there are many Christians (or I should say christains, small c - the ones we are discussing) that won't enter the Kingdom of heaven?

What does one do for the latter?

Trust God and His Mercy and Love.

Most of mankind will not be entering the Kingdom of Heaven, even when Christ appears again in Power. It will be as Jesus said, just as in the days of Noah, when the world was busy eating and drinking and giving in marriage (note he does not describe a world that is destined for destruction as one where there is rape and pillaging and murdering, but one where everyone is blind and having a merry old time enjoying the pleasures of this world) up until the moment that the rain began to fall, and then only 8 entered into the Ark (Christ) and were saved.

Very very few, beanieboy, will Know Christ and be Known by Christ when he appears in Power and thus be able to join with Him and ascend into the Kingdom. For most of us that moment will be horrific, our merriment brought to a sudden end.

Remember, God is a Burning Fire.

But for those who do not enter the Ark this time, there will be other opportunities. God is Eternal and 'has all the time in the world' for His lost children to return to Him and will continue to send His Son to redeem them until every last one is brought Home.

Have you seen the movie Little Buddha? In the end we get a picture of what it is like to enter into God's immovable Kingdom and the obstacles encountered to get there. If one examines Sidharta's experiences under the bodhi tree, they will find they are the same the Jesus experienced, especially in the wilderness for 40 days.

The Path that Sidharta walked and the one walked by Jesus, is the same that all men must walk. This Path though, cannot be walked without Grace.

It is Grace that carries us and brings us into the Kingdom, if only we would repent, and turn from our selfishness.



mary

[XaositectCrayon]

You also got to remember the catholics just "came out on top" do to a huge gangwar between the Christ cults. Then the bible was written by the catholics. Who knows what happened but there's enough evidence to point that the scriptures themselves were changed. Hell, most of the oldest documents talk about being naked and unashamed. Yet ask those today and the nude body should be covered up. The hatred for the nude body was early medieval and was meant to be akin to the ascetic Catholic priests (even if most of them were anything but). Alot has changed over the years but the catholic church still has it's corrupt nature lingering (but slowly dieing). It doesnt matter though if you look hard enough the point still stands. Old bearded Josh wasnt too stupid to use enough double meenings to make the more apparent of his views look good to the powers that be (even if the subtle remarks point at a more quite contemplative group). Also it should be known that the Jews wiped out a group called the Zoroastrians (not completely mind you there is a handful that still practice to this day). The Zoroastrians believed a virgin birth would help the people gain salvation from the horrors of their day. I could be wrong about all the but from the info I gathered on Zorothustra's teachings he isnt far off from Christianity (if you forsake the old testament). It sounds somewhat like poetic justice. A Jew fulfilled a prophecy and spread religious views of a group the Jews wiped out (possibly) before the earth was created according to the Jews.

Some say they were the first monotheist religion not revolving around an earthly object...

[Ryokan]

You also got to remember the catholics just "came out on top" do to a huge gangwar between the Christ cults. Then the bible was written by the catholics. Who knows what happened but there's enough evidence to point that the scriptures themselves were changed. Hell, most of the oldest documents talk about being naked and unashamed. Yet ask those today and the nude body should be covered up. The hatred for the nude body was early medieval and was meant to be akin to the ascetic Catholic priests (even if most of them were anything but). Alot has changed over the years but the catholic church still has it's corrupt nature lingering (but slowly dieing). It doesnt matter though if you look hard enough the point still stands. Old bearded Josh wasnt too stupid to use enough double meenings to make the more apparent of his views look good to the powers that be (even if the subtle remarks point at a more quite contemplative group). Also it should be known that the Jews wiped out a group called the Zoroastrians (not completely mind you there is a handful that still practice to this day). The Zoroastrians believed a virgin birth would help the people gain salvation from the horrors of their day. I could be wrong about all the but from the info I gathered on Zorothustra's teachings he isnt far off from Christianity (if you forsake the old testament). It sounds somewhat like poetic justice. A Jew fulfilled a prophecy and spread religious views of a group the Jews wiped out (possibly) before the earth was created according to the Jews.

Some say they were the first monotheist religion not revolving around an earthly object...Islam, not Jews, destroyed Zoroasterianism. It was a huge religion. The first universal monotheistic religion. Zoastrian Babylon enslaved the Jews. They influenced the Jewish idea of Messiah. The three wise men were Zoastrian astrologers.

[technomage]

So, there is such a thing as a Hindu or Buddhist that enters the Kingdom?

In all honesty, Beanie ... I don't know. A plain reading of the Bible seems to say no in some places, yes in others.

And there are many Christians (or I should say christains, small c - the ones we are discussing) that won't enter the Kingdom of heaven?

What does one do for the latter?

For my part ... I pray for them, and I witness to them the same way I witness to non-Christians, and to (Big "C") Christians--I love them as I love myself, for they are all my neighbors.

[Sparko]

Wow, in the food for thought department, that's a Porterhouse steak.

So, there is such a thing as a Hindu or Buddhist that enters the Kingdom?
And there are many Christians (or I should say christains, small c - the ones we are discussing) that won't enter the Kingdom of heaven?

What does one do for the latter?

Uh, from what I have read of Gnosticmary, she is definitely unorthodox in her beliefs. The bible clearly says that no one gets into heaven without believing in Jesus (read John chapter 3)

Gnosticmary by no means represents what mainstream/orthodox Christianity teaches or believes.

I make no judgement as to if she is a "real" Christian or not. even real Christians can be mistaken about doctrine. And she definitely is not a hateful person like the ones you were talking about, but just take her advice with a grain of salt with respect to thinking that is what mainstream Christianity teaches. It is not.


Just FYI.

[gnosticmary]

Uh, from what I have read of Gnosticmary, she is definitely unorthodox in her beliefs. The bible clearly says that no one gets into heaven without believing in Jesus (read John chapter 3)

Gnosticmary by no means represents what mainstream/orthodox Christianity teaches or believes.

I make no judgement as to if she is a "real" Christian or not. even real Christians can be mistaken about doctrine. And she definitely is not a hateful person like the ones you were talking about, but just take her advice with a grain of salt with respect to thinking that is what mainstream Christianity teaches. It is not.


Just FYI.

Hi Sparko.

The interpretation of John 3 that you speak of comes from a mis-interpretation handed down through the tradition of men that has hidden the true nature of an incarnation of Christ.

When an incarnated being is in Unity with the Father, He - God, is first person; "I" always referring to God - or His image in creation, Christ. For in the Divine Kingdom, God is the only Real I.

When Jesus referred to his personality vehicle, he referred to it as a son of Man (the son of Man has no place to lay his head) , which Biblically refers to the incarnation, the physical being, whose soul is One with God.

We see the same situation in the OT, where angels of God who are in Unity with God, talk as God - in first person - when speaking as His Messengers on earth.

And so when Jesus speaks of believing in Me and no one coming to the Father except through Me, the Me he is referring to is Christ, and not the physical incarnation through which Christ has manifested.

It is the Power and Love of Christ, God's only begotten Son, the Alpha, through whom all that is created was created, that redeems us.



mary

[XaositectCrayon]

Islam, not Jews, destroyed Zoroasterianism. It was a huge religion. The first universal monotheistic religion. Zoastrian Babylon enslaved the Jews. They influenced the Jewish idea of Messiah. The three wise men were Zoastrian astrologers.
well I was off then

would that make Islam NOT an abrahamic religion? iirc Judaism was the first Abrahamic religion...

I also doubt (from the what little I read of Zorathrusta) he was a slaver. Was it possible the kings at the time were wrongly teaching a religion?

[Sparko]

Hi Sparko.

The interpretation of John 3 that you speak of comes from a mis-interpretation handed down through the tradition of men that has hidden the true nature of an incarnation of Christ.

When an incarnated being is in Unity with the Father, He - God, is first person; "I" always referring to God - or His image in creation, Christ. For in the Divine Kingdom, God is the only Real I.

When Jesus referred to his personality vehicle, he referred to it as a son of Man (the son of Man has no place to lay his head) , which Biblically refers to the incarnation, the physical being, whose soul is One with God.

We see the same situation in the OT, where angels of God who are in Unity with God, talk as God - in first person - when speaking as His Messengers on earth.

And so when Jesus speaks of believing in Me and no one coming to the Father except through Me, the Me he is referring to is Christ, and not the physical incarnation through which Christ has manifested.

It is the Power and Love of Christ, God's only begotten Son, the Alpha, through whom all that is created was created, that redeems us.



mary

Nice try mary.

God Bless.

[Beanieboy]

I've always questioned that, Sparko.

Christians say, "Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but through me" so that proves that you HAVE to believe in Jesus.

However, Jesus said that when he was alive.
He didn't say, "..but through me*"
*pending my death and resurrection, void where prohibitted."

So, one must ask, what did that mean? (Yes, another thread, perhaps.)
But he said that the greatest commandments were to love God and one's neighbor.
There is no "you must use the phrase "Lord and Savior", nor "you have to say this prayer I wrote in this tract".
He simply says that one must follow Christ - and live a Christ-like life, one that is selfless and giving of the self.

I don't believe that it is any more complicated than that.

You claim that biblically one can only reach the Father through Christ.
However, you also claim that the bible says that just because a person says that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, reads the bible, goes to church, and believes whole heartily that they are Christian, that they actually are.

So, if this is true, one must ask - are there those who follow Jesus unknowingly?

I mean, if Hitler (who claimed to be a Christian) is not in heaven, doesn't it follow that someone as selfless and giving as Ghandi would be?

[Sparko]

I've always questioned that, Sparko.

Christians say, "Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but through me" so that proves that you HAVE to believe in Jesus.

However, Jesus said that when he was alive.
He didn't say, "..but through me*"
*pending my death and resurrection, void where prohibitted."

So, one must ask, what did that mean? (Yes, another thread, perhaps.)
But he said that the greatest commandments were to love God and one's neighbor.
There is no "you must use the phrase "Lord and Savior", nor "you have to say this prayer I wrote in this tract".
He simply says that one must follow Christ - and live a Christ-like life, one that is selfless and giving of the self.

I don't believe that it is any more complicated than that.

You claim that biblically one can only reach the Father through Christ.
However, you also claim that the bible says that just because a person says that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, reads the bible, goes to church, and believes whole heartily that they are Christian, that they actually are.

So, if this is true, one must ask - are there those who follow Jesus unknowingly?

I mean, if Hitler (who claimed to be a Christian) is not in heaven, doesn't it follow that someone as selfless and giving as Ghandi would be?

Jesus said lots of things and you have to take them all into consideration. He not only said

John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

He also said:

John 3: 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I don't see how you can follow someone inadvertantly. You can do some of the same things he does inadvertantly but that is not following him. Also the bible says that you can't earn your way into heaven with good deeds. We have all sinned and that alone is enough to condemn us. No amount of good deeds later will wipe that out. The only way to get salvation is to call on Jesus and believe in him. Or be perfect.

You can follow someone wrongly and think you are right, but you can't follow someone by mistake.

If I were to say I followed Ghandi and went around saying that Ghandi believed in torturing babies so I am gonna do that, even if I truly believed that, I would not be a true follower of Ghandi would I?

As a Christian, if I go around practicing loving my brothers and doing good and loving peace, that would not make me a follower of Ghandi even though he believed the same thing.

So by Ghandi doing those things it does not make him a follower of Christ.

[gnosticmary]

Jesus said lots of things and you have to take them all into consideration. He not only said

John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

He also said:

John 3: 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I don't see how you can follow someone inadvertantly. You can do some of the same things he does inadvertantly but that is not following him. Also the bible says that you can't earn your way into heaven with good deeds. We have all sinned and that alone is enough to condemn us. No amount of good deeds later will wipe that out. The only way to get salvation is to call on Jesus and believe in him. Or be perfect.

You can follow someone wrongly and think you are right, but you can't follow someone by mistake.

If I were to say I followed Ghandi and went around saying that Ghandi believed in torturing babies so I am gonna do that, even if I truly believed that, I would not be a true follower of Ghandi would I?

As a Christian, if I go around practicing loving my brothers and doing good and loving peace, that would not make me a follower of Ghandi even though he believed the same thing.

So by Ghandi doing those things it does not make him a follower of Christ.


Many in the Bible were found to be known by God, to walk with God, to be taken up into the heavens, to be righteous - all without knowing of Jesus, for it was before he was born and died.

I offer that they knew and were known by Christ, who existed before the foundations of the world, and has been working here for the salvation of all since the fall of man.

Christ is not limited to the flesh and blood of Jesus, which did not exist until it was conceived in Mary's womb, and was made out of the same dust of the earth from which our flesh and blood is made.

We certainly may begin with following the flesh and blood of Jesus, but if we truly believe, such devotion will eventually lead us to the Spirit of Christ, the same Spirit that is known in many religions and cultures, just by a different name.

Even in Jewish tradition, the Messiah pre-exists his incarnation in flesh and is at work in the Spiritual realms.



mary

[Sparko]

Many in the Bible were found to be known by God, to walk with God, to be taken up into the heavens, to be righteous - all without knowing of Jesus, for it was before he was born and died.

I offer that they knew and were known by Christ, who existed before the foundations of the world, and has been working here for the salvation of all since the fall of man.

Christ is not limited to the flesh and blood of Jesus, which did not exist until it was conceived in Mary's womb, and was made out of the same dust of the earth from which our flesh and blood is made.

We certainly may begin with following the flesh and blood of Jesus, but if we truly believe, such devotion will eventually lead us to the Spirit of Christ, the same Spirit that is known in many religions and cultures, just by a different name.

Even in Jewish tradition, the Messiah pre-exists his incarnation in flesh and is at work in the Spiritual realms.



mary

Mary I am gonna ignore all your gnostic stuff because this is not the thread to get into that, but you did bring up a good point. What about the Israelites who did not know who Jesus was, how could they believe in him?

Well that was the whole point of God promising them a Messiah to save them and giving them sacrifices to perform to look forward to his coming. They DID believe in Jesus, even though they did not know him by name. They were faithful to YHWH and his Law and Jesus IS YHWH (YHWH being the triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) - so yeah they DID know Christ, as YHWH and the Messiah to come.

[Beanieboy]

Jesus said lots of things and you have to take them all into consideration. He not only said

John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

He also said:

John 3: 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I don't see how you can follow someone inadvertantly. You can do some of the same things he does inadvertantly but that is not following him. Also the bible says that you can't earn your way into heaven with good deeds. We have all sinned and that alone is enough to condemn us. No amount of good deeds later will wipe that out. The only way to get salvation is to call on Jesus and believe in him. Or be perfect.

You can follow someone wrongly and think you are right, but you can't follow someone by mistake.

If I were to say I followed Ghandi and went around saying that Ghandi believed in torturing babies so I am gonna do that, even if I truly believed that, I would not be a true follower of Ghandi would I?

As a Christian, if I go around practicing loving my brothers and doing good and loving peace, that would not make me a follower of Ghandi even though he believed the same thing.

So by Ghandi doing those things it does not make him a follower of Christ.

I'm not suggesting that one "earns" their way into heaven.

Let's say that a woman is interested in you.
She invites you to dinner, she insists on paying, she buys you a cashmere sweater, and says, "Ok, you OWE me. You HAVE TO be my boyfriend now, and love me, because I did this stuff."

Do you love her? Not necessarily, because she is only doing it to get you to love her - it's selfish.

On the other hand, if you claim to love your girlfriend, but do nothing for her birthday, don't offer to pick up the check ever, don't call when you are late, take no interest in what is important to her, and say, "baby, I love you," your words are false, because your actions don't show it.

My boyfriend rarely says, "I love you" to anyone, explaining that people say it so much that it means nothing. People love pizza, they love Madonna, they say I love you with nothing to show for it.

But to show people that you love them - to unconsciously think of the person and give them a small token, support, to be comforting - or to do so consciencely - to think that you are really busy, but should make time for the person, ask them about the proposal they are working on, ask them how you can help - is much more difficult, as it is rewarding.

For some bizarre reason, many a christian will say that to be saved, you simply ask Jesus to be you PL&S, then go on with your life and wait to die, arguing that deeds won't get you into heaven. But the bible also says that faith without deeds is dead. But the deeds should come from the faith, and faith and growth should come from the deeds. It's called discipline.

And then when you point out the story of the sheep and the goats - the sheep saying, "When were you hungry and I fed you?", these aren't followers. These are people that fed Jesus unaware.
And he says to the goats, "I was hungry, and you would not feed me."
They said, "When? Hey - didn't we perform miracles in your name?? What's up?"

As you said, one can claim to be Christian with their tongue, and not with their heart.

And I contend that someone can follow their heart - to love their neighbor as themself - and be following the commandments of God, unaware - without expectation of a reward, and be welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

The question is, what does, "believe in God/Jesus" mean?
To the atheist or nonbeliever, it means "The existence of..."
To the believer, it means, "Follow..."

Does simple acknowledgement that you have faith that Jesus exists enough? After all, it says, 'that he who believes in me..."
But, Satan believes in Jesus. He talked to him.

So, "believe" must mean "follow", and the basic principles that Jesus taught were to love one another with a recklessly generous heart.

But do the deeds themselves get you into heaven?
No more than deeds make someone love you.
However, if someone claims to love you and does nothing to show it, they probably don't.
They do deeds because they love you, and because they love you, the do good deeds for you. The two are inseparable, and a natural flow of the other.

If someone chooses to then do good deeds with no payment, uses the "pay it forward" approach - telling the person not to repay them, but do something for someone else - pass it on, and the receiver then loves the first because of it - then so be it.

Can someone who does not follow Jesus do the things that Christ commands - to love God and one another?
If you say yes - then the HS is pointless, Christ being in one's heart is pointless because he does not guide or give strength and conviction that the person, like Gandhi, could accomplish on their own.
It just boils down to getting a Get out of Hell free card.

But if the person is following in the ways of Christ, as Gandhi did, in his sacrifice of self for the good of others, then he is following Jesus, whether he claims to be Christian or not.

A quote from Gandhi when asked if he was a Christian, or considered becoming one:
http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/xity.htm


My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion. In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being.
[quote]


The missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so. Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth.

[Sparko]

I'm not suggesting that one "earns" their way into heaven.

Let's say that a woman is interested in you.
She invites you to dinner, she insists on paying, she buys you a cashmere sweater, and says, "Ok, you OWE me. You HAVE TO be my boyfriend now, and love me, because I did this stuff."

Do you love her? Not necessarily, because she is only doing it to get you to love her - it's selfish.

On the other hand, if you claim to love your girlfriend, but do nothing for her birthday, don't offer to pick up the check ever, don't call when you are late, take no interest in what is important to her, and say, "baby, I love you," your words are false, because your actions don't show it.

My boyfriend rarely says, "I love you" to anyone, explaining that people say it so much that it means nothing. People love pizza, they love Madonna, they say I love you with nothing to show for it.

But to show people that you love them - to unconsciously think of the person and give them a small token, support, to be comforting - or to do so consciencely - to think that you are really busy, but should make time for the person, ask them about the proposal they are working on, ask them how you can help - is much more difficult, as it is rewarding.

For some bizarre reason, many a christian will say that to be saved, you simply ask Jesus to be you PL&S, then go on with your life and wait to die, arguing that deeds won't get you into heaven. But the bible also says that faith without deeds is dead. But the deeds should come from the faith, and faith and growth should come from the deeds. It's called discipline.

Yup.



And then when you point out the story of the sheep and the goats - the sheep saying, "When were you hungry and I fed you?", these aren't followers. These are people that fed Jesus unaware.
And he says to the goats, "I was hungry, and you would not feed me."
They said, "When? Hey - didn't we perform miracles in your name?? What's up?"

As you said, one can claim to be Christian with their tongue, and not with their heart.

Yup.

And I contend that someone can follow their heart - to love their neighbor as themself - and be following the commandments of God, unaware - without expectation of a reward, and be welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Again, no amount of 'doing good' will erase any bad you have done. God doesn't put you on a big scale and see if your good outweighs your bad. God's measurement is perfection. ANY sin will condemn you. Then no ammount of good deeds will redeem you.

However the bible does say:

Romans 2: 12 - All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Basically God is saying that everyone has a conscience, they know right from wrong. Even if they have never heard of God, they will have this 'law' written in their hearts. If they follow that law faithfully, then God will reveal more to them, but if they don't and do wrong even according to their own moral compass, then they have no excuse and are condemning themselves.
Do you know anyone who has never done anything they knew was wrong, even according to their own conscience? I don't.




The question is, what does, "believe in God/Jesus" mean?
To the atheist or nonbeliever, it means "The existence of..."
To the believer, it means, "Follow..."


Biblical faith can be best described as "trust" - you trust that Jesus will be your savior. You follow him because you trust him. How can you trust someone you don't even know? The unbeliever does not 'know' Christ. If he did he would follow him.


Does simple acknowledgement that you have faith that Jesus exists enough? After all, it says, 'that he who believes in me..."
But, Satan believes in Jesus. He talked to him.

James answers that:

James 2:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Belief or even knowledge that someone exists does you no good if you reject them. I believe Satan exists but I am not a follower of him, I do not trust him and I have no faith in him. The opposite is true too. People can believe God and Jesus exist but want nothing to do with them.



But do the deeds themselves get you into heaven?
No more than deeds make someone love you.
However, if someone claims to love you and does nothing to show it, they probably don't.
They do deeds because they love you, and because they love you, the do good deeds for you. The two are inseparable, and a natural flow of the other.

That is right. You do what God wants BECAUSE you love him. If some stranger came and cut my grass for me would that make him family? No. But if my son loved me he might go out and cut the grass without me even asking as a sign of respect and love. We do good because God loves us and we love him. Others might do good because they are following Buddha. The motive makes the difference, not the actual act.


Can someone who does not follow Jesus do the things that Christ commands - to love God and one another?
If you say yes - then the HS is pointless, Christ being in one's heart is pointless because he does not guide or give strength and conviction that the person, like Gandhi, could accomplish on their own.
It just boils down to getting a Get out of Hell free card.

Again, the motive counts for everything. The holy spirit changes us to make us want to do things for our fellow men out of love and respect for God. If I just do good deeds to "get out of hell" then I am trying to earn my way to heaven and I can't do that.

But if the person is following in the ways of Christ, as Gandhi did, in his sacrifice of self for the good of others, then he is following Jesus, whether he claims to be Christian or not.

No he is following some other standard. The actions might be the same, but the motive is different, and yet again, you can't earn your way into heaven. Even for Christians doing good deeds does not earn them heaven. Doing good is just a sign that they belong to God. It is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. To an outsider yeah it looks just like what Ghandi was doing, but to God, he sees your heart and you know your heart and know that you are doing it for God because you love him and he loves us so we love our neighbors.


A quote from Gandhi when asked if he was a Christian, or considered becoming one:
http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/xity.htm


My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion. In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being.

Right. He rejected Christ. He embraced Hinduism. He did his good deeds because of his beliefs in Hinduism, not Christ. He had no FAITH in Christ. Yet he was a sinner too. Without Jesus all his good deeds do him no good.

[Jade]

Allow me to to jump in here for a minute. I've read the first 3 pages and skimmed much of the rest. Pardon me if I'm missing any thing crucial. Perhaps some inside information is what Beanieboy was asking for. In not, then please disregard.

I was among their number for about a year, even walked with them and ate with them. Are they true Christians? I believe they are (only they and Christ know for sure). They do possess a joy that a Christian naturally acquires and they do have a love for the sinner (they just show it very poorly, more on this later).

In their Christian walk they have found a path that is well-trodden in the beginning and the more people that walk that path the more well-trodden it looks. Their system of belief isn't a new one. In fact Christians can stumble onto it quite naturally. Many times in Scriptures we're encouraged to love one another and to be kind. But there are also scriptures for disfellowshipping and guidelines for judging. These people have merged scripture to the extent that they feel validated in loving people by hating them, believing that a homosexual will be stunned into repentence, having to face the reality of his sin. So a person following this belief system gets to hate (which is what the old nature wants to do) in the pretext of loving them. Their highest priority is to see sinners saved, it's just they believe that you have to be mean to wake people up. If all the cards were on the table, Enyart himself would probably make it clear that he doesn't endorse killing and other violent acts (in our current justice system).

But here is where is gets dicey. Enyart has proposed a fantasy government (like fantasy football) and how it could be set up with Scripture as his backing. Now there's always been a big difference between an individual carrying out his or her own justice and a government doing so. But as Enyart as the author/editor of this plan, it's hard to figure out whether it's him or his fantasy government that's talking. And this proposed plan talks of stoning, caning, and restitution as forms of punishment.

To a Christian using only his logical mind, this belief system sounds unbeatable and sound. But to a Christian who has come to really "know" Christ, one realizes it goes against the very Spirit of God. In fact carrying hate effects humans by hardening their hearts toward the Spirit.

[Beanieboy]

Sparko -

I was one told this in Kawanis:
An atheist takes a Christian man, woman and their little boy out on the ocean.
There is an accident and the boat begins to sink. The atheist radios for help.
A helicopter comes to help them, but they realize that there is only room for 3.

The Christian man pushes his child and wife away, and climbs on to safety.
"This way, I can pull my child and wife to safety," he justifies, but he is really concerned about saving his life. The child is passed to the man by the wife, and then the wife looks at the atheist. The atheist cups his hands and the wife climbs on to the helicopter, and then sinks into the ocean and drowns.

"Now," the instructor asked our 6th grade minds, "what happens to the atheist?"
"He goes to heaven" I answered.
"NO! HE goes to HELL because he didn't believe in JESUS!" the instructor answered.
"What happens to the man who saved himself at the risk of his family? He goes to heaven???"
"Yes, because he believes that Jesus is Lord."
"You have to question that from his actions, don't you?"
"Yes, little beanie, but you see, you can't earn your way to heaven by being good or doing good deeds."
"No," I answer, "nor will you be prevented from entering for doing very bad, selfish things, according to you. The atheist gave his live so that the other 3 could live. Doesn't the bible say that there is no other love greater than a man lay down his life for another? And wasn't he doing what Jesus did? Only, he's an atheist. He didn't think that he would go to heaven, but that this was it - which makes the sacrifice even greater."
"There is NO GREATER SACRIFICE than that of Christ!" he yelled. "How DARE you compare the sacrifice of christ to that of the man!"
I said, "so, if we do what Jesus did - sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others - that's not enough? That's not a big enough deal - giving up you life for others? Then how can Jesus' sacrifice mean anything? Or is it that the "good deeds" of Jesus somehow count, but man's do not? It doesn't make sense."

And that, Sparko, is what you boil it down to - that no one enters heaven by deeds (alone) or deeds by a different motivation (just because it's a good way to live vs. it makes God happy), until deeds no longer matter.

So, the atheist, who was giving of self, lives in hell, while the Christian man who thinks only of himself, lives in heaven.
How is that just?
Or more importantly, which of the two of these people would you want to live eternity with? I would choose the atheist over the Christian man in this story any day.

[Keith Johnson]

I've been banned (thank Buddha) from another, for lack of another word "christian" web site for questioning some very questionable uses of the bible.

For example, a favorite is Rom 12:9 Cling to what is good Hate what is evil. I'm a 'mo, and therefore evil, so it is ok to hate me.

Except Romans 12:10 and beyond is instruction of how to live in harmony, to bless your enemies, to feed you enemies if they are hungry, return curse with blessing.

Searching for slogans, the following have been offered:
Serving Righteous anger since 1997
Where the Righteous Rejoice when they see the vengence
Telling people to go to hell since 1997
Dividing Christians with Truth

And TheologyWeb would be, as they referred to it, as a "mamby pamby Christian" site because you act, well, civil.

Why are there such polar opposites, and how and why can such anger, condemnation and vengefulness come from those who claim to love Jesus?

This is not simply this site. A conservative local radio station sees Christianity as "handholding people to hell" or being judgemental, lack compassion and be rude in the name of God.

So, how can Christianity produce such polar extremes?

Great question. Pastor Gregory A. Boyd wrote a book called "Repenting of Religion" that addresses this very question. His take is that too many of us Christians are partaking of the Fruit of the forbidden tree (from the Adam and Eve story of course:-), that is of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". The story has Satan telling Eve that eating the fobidden fruit will not make them dead but will make them on the same level as God, with knowledge of good and evil. They crave that status, they don't trust God to provide them the source of life, and so they eat the fruit. Today, Boyd says, too many Christians still don't trust God, they place themselves in the position of "knowing good and evil" so that by condemning the sins of others they can make themselves like God. What we Christians are called to do is outrageously love our neighbors as ourselves and by loving our neighbors and God we will naturally obey God's law--the law is aimed at bringing us to see God as our source for righteousness anyway.

But for me as a Christian this non-judging command is supremely difficult because it is so easy to trick myself into believing that by my not judging others I am better than those Christians who do judge others--thus judging those Christians and committing the very sin I accuse then off. The apostle Paul said that when we judge others we become hypocrites and I prove that every day!

Anyway you might check out the book on Amazon; it's a pretty good read.

your friend
Keith

[Sparko]

Sparko -

I was one told this in Kawanis:
An atheist takes a Christian man, woman and their little boy out on the ocean.
There is an accident and the boat begins to sink. The atheist radios for help.
A helicopter comes to help them, but they realize that there is only room for 3.

The Christian man pushes his child and wife away, and climbs on to safety.
"This way, I can pull my child and wife to safety," he justifies, but he is really concerned about saving his life. The child is passed to the man by the wife, and then the wife looks at the atheist. The atheist cups his hands and the wife climbs on to the helicopter, and then sinks into the ocean and drowns.

"Now," the instructor asked our 6th grade minds, "what happens to the atheist?"
"He goes to heaven" I answered.
"NO! HE goes to HELL because he didn't believe in JESUS!" the instructor answered.
"What happens to the man who saved himself at the risk of his family? He goes to heaven???"
"Yes, because he believes that Jesus is Lord."
"You have to question that from his actions, don't you?"
"Yes, little beanie, but you see, you can't earn your way to heaven by being good or doing good deeds."
"No," I answer, "nor will you be prevented from entering for doing very bad, selfish things, according to you. The atheist gave his live so that the other 3 could live. Doesn't the bible say that there is no other love greater than a man lay down his life for another? And wasn't he doing what Jesus did? Only, he's an atheist. He didn't think that he would go to heaven, but that this was it - which makes the sacrifice even greater."
"There is NO GREATER SACRIFICE than that of Christ!" he yelled. "How DARE you compare the sacrifice of christ to that of the man!"
I said, "so, if we do what Jesus did - sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others - that's not enough? That's not a big enough deal - giving up you life for others? Then how can Jesus' sacrifice mean anything? Or is it that the "good deeds" of Jesus somehow count, but man's do not? It doesn't make sense."

And that, Sparko, is what you boil it down to - that no one enters heaven by deeds (alone) or deeds by a different motivation (just because it's a good way to live vs. it makes God happy), until deeds no longer matter.

So, the atheist, who was giving of self, lives in hell, while the Christian man who thinks only of himself, lives in heaven.
How is that just?
Or more importantly, which of the two of these people would you want to live eternity with? I would choose the atheist over the Christian man in this story any day.

Beanie, we all have done selfish things and bad things. that is what makes us sinners. those bad and selfish things will condemn us to hell. Every one of us. Including me, you, Ghandi, Buddha.

Jesus offers us FORGIVENESS for our bad actions. our sins. He forgives ALL of them because even one outstanding would condemn you to hell. So yes, the selfish Christian in the example you gave will go to heaven if he is forgiven by Jesus and has faith in Jesus. Becoming Christian does not make us perfect or sinless. We continue to make mistakes, hopefully fewer as time goes on. But we are forgiven. But only God and that man know if he was really a Christian or just pretending to be.

The atheist, being the really nice guy that he is, drowned. But how nice was he compared to God? was he perfect? What did he do last week? Did he lie to his wife about an affair? Did he steal a pen from work? Did he cuss out his boss? Surely he has committed some selfish and bad acts before? And he rejects God and Christ. He has no forgiveness. He will go to hell.

But maybe God will have mercy on him because of his selfless act and he won't drown, and God will send him a good Christian to tell him about Jesus and one day that Atheist will become a Christian and go to heaven.

[brother vinny]

I think Beanieboy's Kiwanis story draws a false dichotomy. The atheist who sacrifices himself for his family is acting no more selflessly than the Christian that allows his family to drown.

[gnosticmary]

From Matthew 21...

28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’

29 He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went.

30 Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?”

They said to Him, “The first.”

Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.


It is not belief in the person of Jesus Christ that saves us, but belief in the Way of Righteousness, the Way of self denial and Love, that He and John the Baptist and others have taught.

It is Trust in His Commandments, in walking as He walked. Just as beanieboy claims...salvation comes from following in the Way that Jesus showed us, the same way that God has revealed through many Messengers.

It is the Way of Christ.

mary

[Sparko]

It is not belief in the person of Jesus Christ that saves us, but belief in the Way of Righteousness, the Way of self denial and Love, that He and John the Baptist and others have taught.

Really? I don't think so.

What did Jesus himself say, Mary?
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[gnosticmary]

Really? I don't think so.

What did Jesus himself say, Mary?
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.





Christ is the Father's only begotten Son, Spirit born of Spirit, existing since before the foundation of our world. He is not a mere man, but the Power and Love and Wisdom and Truth of the Father, through whom all that is created was created.

The personality Jesus did not exist until He was conceived in the womb of Mary. Jesus is son of Man, the physical vehicle through whom Christ manifested in our realm - through the Union or Oneness of the Soul that became Jesus and the Eternal Body of Christ.

The All of Christ certainly did not exist in the person of Jesus while He was incarnated, but exists Eternally and through all Souls through out the divine Kingdom who are One with Him, United as His Body.

Jesus' Soul was a piece of the Body of Christ, sent by the Father to incarnate into our world, thus being God manifested in flesh. And being One with Christ, Jesus spoke for Christ. He was Jesus the Christ.

The Soul that incarnated as Krishna was also One with Christ and thus spoke for Christ, He too said to be born of a virgin, forgiving the sins of many and being crucified at death. Krishna was also called the Savior of men and the Son of God - the second of the Holy Trinity, whose resurrection and ascension into heaven was witnessed by many.

The Soul that incarnated as Siddhartha (who became known as Buddha) was also One with Christ, thereby speaking for Christ. He too was born of a virgin and forgave the sins of many. While He was not crucified, He was persecuted and killed by His enemies (poisoned).

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, and whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting Life. - Jesus the Christ

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates,
And although I am the Lord of all sentient beings,
I still appear in My original transcendental form.
Whenever and wherever religious practice declines,
O descendant of Bharata, and there is a predominant rise of irreligion,
I send Myself forth, to protect the good and to destroy the evil ones.
And to establish righteousness, I incarnate Myself age after age. - Krishna the Christ

While the personality that clothes a redeemed soul - a Soul brought back into Unity with the Body of Christ - is transfigured and resurrected, the personality eventually dissolves/burns away in the Light as it ascends into Unity with the Father.


mary (the nobody)

[Sparko]

Christ is the Father's only begotten Son, Spirit born of Spirit, existing since before the foundation of our world. He is not a mere man, but the Power and Love and Wisdom and Truth of the Father, through whom all that is created was created.

The personality Jesus did not exist until He was conceived in the womb of Mary. Jesus is son of Man, the physical vehicle through whom Christ manifested in our realm - through the Union or Oneness of the Soul that became Jesus and the Eternal Body of Christ.

The All of Christ certainly did not exist in the person of Jesus while He was incarnated, but exists Eternally and through all Souls through out the divine Kingdom who are One with Him, United as His Body.

Jesus' Soul was a piece of the Body of Christ, sent by the Father to incarnate into our world, thus being God manifested in flesh. And being One with Christ, Jesus spoke for Christ. He was Jesus the Christ.

The Soul that incarnated as Krishna was also One with Christ and thus spoke for Christ, He too said to be born of a virgin, forgiving the sins of many and being crucified at death. Krishna was also called the Savior of men and the Son of God - the second of the Holy Trinity, whose resurrection and ascension into heaven was witnessed by many.

The Soul that incarnated as Siddhartha (who became known as Buddha) was also One with Christ, thereby speaking for Christ. He too was born of a virgin and forgave the sins of many. While He was not crucified, He was persecuted and killed by His enemies (poisoned).

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, and whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting Life. - Jesus the Christ

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates,
And although I am the Lord of all sentient beings,
I still appear in My original transcendental form.
Whenever and wherever religious practice declines,
O descendant of Bharata, and there is a predominant rise of irreligion,
I send Myself forth, to protect the good and to destroy the evil ones.
And to establish righteousness, I incarnate Myself age after age. - Krishna the Christ

While the personality that clothes a redeemed soul - a Soul brought back into Unity with the Body of Christ - is transfigured and resurrected, the personality eventually dissolves/burns away in the Light as it ascends into Unity with the Father.


mary (the nobody)

despite your little tangent there, how does that even remotely answer my post? Jesus said those who believe in him are saved, those who do not are condemned. very simple.

[gnosticmary]

despite your little tangent there, how does that even remotely answer my post? Jesus said those who believe in him are saved, those who do not are condemned. very simple.

Read the response again. I said that God's only begotten Son is Christ, who exists Eternally and from time to time, according to God's Infinite Love, a piece of Christ incarnates into flesh to show the lost sheep the Way Home.

It is belief in Christ that saves us, whom Jesus spoke for as an incarnation, as Jesus the Christ. Christ is Spirit, a Principal, not flesh and blood.

Believing in Jesus and His words will lead us to Christ, just as believing in Krishna and His Teachings or Buddha and His. Unfortunately, humanity rarely truly believes, trusts, forsaking all in this world and following The Commandments that Christ has given us through His incarnations.

Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus, are all Gatekeepers, Shepherds, leading us to God's only Begotten Son, Christ, with whom their Souls are One with, part of the Body of Christ.

Christ is God's Image in Creation and certainly cannot be bound/limited by human flesh and blood. He exists in the Divine Realms, and at the Father's Will, pieces of Christ descend, and incarnate into fallen worlds to redeem the lost children, of which humanity is only a small part.



mary

[Sparko]

Read the response again. I said that God's only begotten Son is Christ, who exists Eternally and from time to time, according to God's Infinite Love, a piece of Christ incarnates into flesh to show the lost sheep the Way Home.

It is belief in Christ that saves us, whom Jesus spoke for as an incarnation, as Jesus the Christ. Christ is Spirit, a Principal, not flesh and blood.

Believing in Jesus and His words will lead us to Christ, just as believing in Krishna and His Teachings or Buddha and His. Unfortunately, humanity rarely truly believes, trusts, forsaking all in this world and following The Commandments that Christ has given us through His incarnations.

Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus, are all Gatekeepers, Shepherds, leading us to God's only Begotten Son, Christ, with whom their Souls are One with, part of the Body of Christ.

Christ is God's Image in Creation and certainly cannot be bound/limited by human flesh and blood. He exists in the Divine Realms, and at the Father's Will, pieces of Christ descend, and incarnate into fallen worlds to redeem the lost children, of which humanity is only a small part.



mary

OK after reading that, beanieboy, can you see how some people can be mistaken in their faith to Jesus? gnosticmary is just that, she has invented some 'christ' spirit who is embodied in jesus and buddha and so on. That is nowhere taught in the bible nor believed by orthodox christianity. That is pure newage nonsense. Does that mean she is not a Christian? I really don't know. I am not God. But I know that she is very heretical and wrong, according to mainstream Christianity. She would qualify under a "false teacher" in the bible, because she is spreading a destructive heresy, saying that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved, when Jesus himself said it plainly in John 3. And Jesus IS Christ, the Messiah and there is no other.

Matthew 24:
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many... 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. 26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.




2 Peter 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2 Corinthians 11
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.... 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

(NIV)

[Keepupthefire]

Uh, from what I have read of Gnosticmary, she is definitely unorthodox in her beliefs. The bible clearly says that no one gets into heaven without believing in Jesus (read John chapter 3)

Gnosticmary by no means represents what mainstream/orthodox Christianity teaches or believes.

I make no judgement as to if she is a "real" Christian or not. even real Christians can be mistaken about doctrine. And she definitely is not a hateful person like the ones you were talking about, but just take her advice with a grain of salt with respect to thinking that is what mainstream Christianity teaches. It is not.


Just FYI.
You have to admit she got most of it right though.

[Keepupthefire]

Sparko -

I was one told this in Kawanis:
An atheist takes a Christian man, woman and their little boy out on the ocean.
There is an accident and the boat begins to sink. The atheist radios for help.
A helicopter comes to help them, but they realize that there is only room for 3.

The Christian man pushes his child and wife away, and climbs on to safety.
"This way, I can pull my child and wife to safety," he justifies, but he is really concerned about saving his life. The child is passed to the man by the wife, and then the wife looks at the atheist. The atheist cups his hands and the wife climbs on to the helicopter, and then sinks into the ocean and drowns.

"Now," the instructor asked our 6th grade minds, "what happens to the atheist?"
"He goes to heaven" I answered.
"NO! HE goes to HELL because he didn't believe in JESUS!" the instructor answered.
"What happens to the man who saved himself at the risk of his family? He goes to heaven???"
"Yes, because he believes that Jesus is Lord."
"You have to question that from his actions, don't you?"
"Yes, little beanie, but you see, you can't earn your way to heaven by being good or doing good deeds."
"No," I answer, "nor will you be prevented from entering for doing very bad, selfish things, according to you. The atheist gave his live so that the other 3 could live. Doesn't the bible say that there is no other love greater than a man lay down his life for another? And wasn't he doing what Jesus did? Only, he's an atheist. He didn't think that he would go to heaven, but that this was it - which makes the sacrifice even greater."
"There is NO GREATER SACRIFICE than that of Christ!" he yelled. "How DARE you compare the sacrifice of christ to that of the man!"
I said, "so, if we do what Jesus did - sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others - that's not enough? That's not a big enough deal - giving up you life for others? Then how can Jesus' sacrifice mean anything? Or is it that the "good deeds" of Jesus somehow count, but man's do not? It doesn't make sense."

And that, Sparko, is what you boil it down to - that no one enters heaven by deeds (alone) or deeds by a different motivation (just because it's a good way to live vs. it makes God happy), until deeds no longer matter.

So, the atheist, who was giving of self, lives in hell, while the Christian man who thinks only of himself, lives in heaven.
How is that just?
Or more importantly, which of the two of these people would you want to live eternity with? I would choose the atheist over the Christian man in this story any day.
Thats a red herring if I ever saw one.

[gnosticmary]

Jesus said that the Light that was in Him revealed the evil ways of men and most men, preferring the darkness, thus hated him.

The followers of Jesus do not do so because He makes them feel special and loved, elected, saved, but because they love Truth more than self.

It is the false teachers, the false Christs, who men gather around that make them feel special, saved, elected, loved - thus saying just what their itching ears want to to hear.

Those who follow the One True Teacher do so at great cost, for they lose all, they lose their life and all that they loved in this world.

For God so loved the world that He will do all to save every single last one of His wayward children. He did not create a Universe of suffering and then create a way out that only few would find, either by being born in the right place at the right time, or crossing the path of the right teacher, or not being too damaged to accept the 'gospel of an easy way out'.

God did not create a Universe designed for Eternal suffering of any of His children - including His angels who grieve over each and every last prodigal son lost in the far country.

Suffering, as are the worlds of suffering, is a creation of His children based on their free will choices and in His Love and Mercy He will send Himself, again and again, through a piece of Christ's Body, until every last one is saved.

How ungodly was I as a fundamental Christian who was also deceived into believing that the distortions taught in most Christian churches was true - as long as according to them I was justified in my selfishness!

I like Lucifer proclaimed that I was saved, that I would ascend to Heaven! I was special and chosen! And as long as my beliefs proclaimed me blessed, then they must indeed be right and just.



mary

[Keepupthefire]

Those who follow the One True Teacher do so at great cost, for they lose all, they lose their life and all that they loved in this world.

Jesus was not just merely a Teacher


God did not create a Universe designed for Eternal suffering of any of His children - including His angels who grieve over each and every last prodigal son lost in the far country.

Your somewhat right here Mary, God did not create hell for humanity, he created such a place for angels that rebelled, but if mankind doesn't want God then mankind will have to go to the only place where God isn't. An that would be Hell. Man doesn't go to Hell against his will. Actually he walks in with each refusal to accept everything that Hell isn't..an thats God. Hell is a place that is devoid of things God. A void. A place without life, an everything beautiful. A place where there is gnashing of teeth the suffering is so great. When people say "I would never want to go there" thats just words, but there actions betray them. Every sin is a refusal to have relationship with God.

People can not help but sin it's there nature, an that is why there is a need for God to intervene for mankind could not do it himself. Every sin that man does requires blood to be shed(remember the Garden of Eden, an the warning God gave to mankind if he ate from that tree he was forbidden to eat of).

Suffering, as are the worlds of suffering, is a creation of His children based on their free will choices and in His Love and Mercy He will send Himself, again and again, through a piece of Christ's Body, until every last one is saved.

I believe Sparko covered this one with Matthew 24 very accurately, an there are other references elswhere in the bible to his uniqueness.

How ungodly was I as a fundamental Christian who was also deceived into believing that the distortions taught in most Christian churches was true - as long as according to them I was justified in my selfishness!

I have come to believe there's more to this than what your letting on. What did they(your church) believe an what did they do to you? Private message me if you wish. Concerned I am for you.



I like Lucifer proclaimed that I was saved, that I would ascend to Heaven! I was special and chosen! And as long as my beliefs proclaimed me blessed, then they must indeed be right and just.

Show us where Lucifer claimed he was "saved" please. If anything Lucifer wanted to be God, equal with God. You know there was a reason he was kicked out of heaven. And nobody is "special" for God doesn't play favorites. Even God's "chosen" peoples the Israelites where foresaken(for they rejected there God) for a time so that the Gentiles(us) would receive salvation till the full number has come in. Show us where God claims your beliefs are special as well.

How ungodly was I as a fundamental Christian who was also deceived into believing that the distortions taught in most Christian churches was true - as long as according to them I was justified in my selfishness!

Please explain what specific distortions an acts of selfishness do you refer to. And use scripture to back it up. Please.

It is belief in Christ that saves us, whom Jesus spoke for as an incarnation, as Jesus the Christ. Christ is Spirit, a Principal, not flesh and blood.

Actually, now he resides in an imperishable body of flesh, much like we will recieve when our bodies are glorified again. If he was indeed only spirit than we are still in our sins. It is necessary that blood be shed for our sins, therefore he needed to be fully man to be a proper sacrifice.

good day,

keepupthefire

[Keepupthefire]

To Beanieboy,

Do you not see the contradiction between what she(Gnosticmary) says an what scripture says? Never just take anyones word for it. I would get a concensus on just what exactly a passage in the word is from among other people that know what it speaks of. Better yet ask the Author. Yes pray to God himself, if you truely seek truth he will help, pray against Satan (Ephesians 6:10) so that he will not meddle in the your affairs. This is the time when Satan will be most active..when you seek truth. After you have prayed read the bible an what we have spoken about thus far.

Look at Matthew 7 the narrow an the wide gates section. Gods way into heaven is very exclusive to those who accept what Jesus says is true.

Take a look at the Samaritan women at the well John 4:1-42


Remember to always ask this question "what is being offered here?"

In the passage it will say "gift of God." Something that is given is not earned, and it must be recieved. Lets use this as an analogy, you carry a heavy burden called "sin" an in your hands you carry it..Can you recieve this new gift if your hands are full? No. You must empty your hands...yourself(die to yourself, be Born-Again).

Also look at what Isaiah 64:6 an notice here that again every good work that is done is like filthy rags. The filthy rag part is about a womens uncleanliness(her period). It's like a child playing in pig manure trying to do good an whats right with pig filth in his hands. Everything he touches is defiled despite his intentions. First cleanse the inside of the bowl an the outside will be clean as Jesus said to the Pharisees. Part of the key is to understand why in the Old Testament an scapegoat was slaughtered for the remission of sins.

I have something for you to do as well, go to this website www.livingwaters.com (http://www.livingwaters.com/) an get there take on what exactly God is offering throughout his word. They have free videos there you can listen to. I would suggest "Hells best kept secret." What you do with this is your concern, whether you choose to accept this as truth is your task.

Quote: Originally posted by gnosticmary

It is belief in Christ that saves us, whom Jesus spoke for as an incarnation, as Jesus the Christ. Christ is Spirit, a Principal, not flesh and blood.


1 John 4:2-3. Jesus's body was not found in the tomb, because he was raised in the flesh. For "doubting" Thomas also placed his fingers into the holes an actually touched his resurrected body. He was not merely a spirit.

Good day to you,
keepupthefire

[gnosticmary]

Quote: Originally posted by gnosticmary
Those who follow the One True Teacher do so at great cost, for they lose all, they lose their life and all that they loved in this world.

Jesus was not just merely a Teacher

And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. Matthew 23




Your somewhat right here Mary, God did not create hell for humanity, he created such a place for angels that rebelled, but if mankind doesn't want God then mankind will have to go to the only place where God isn't. An that would be Hell. Man doesn't go to Hell against his will. Actually he walks in with each refusal to accept everything that Hell isn't..an thats God. Hell is a place that is devoid of things God. A void. A place without life, an everything beautiful. A place where there is gnashing of teeth the suffering is so great. When people say "I would never want to go there" thats just words, but there actions betray them. Every sin is a refusal to have relationship with God.


Although it is impossible for there to be a place where God is not - even a void has to be God for there is nothing that is not God - this world and and all hell [places of the spiritually dead] is as though there is not God because it is void of an awareness of God (that part of His creation having been cut off from partaking of the Tree of Life).

People can not help but sin it's there nature, an that is why there is a need for God to intervene for mankind could not do it himself. Every sin that man does requires blood to be shed(remember the Garden of Eden, an the warning God gave to mankind if he ate from that tree he was forbidden to eat of).

While it is true that in this world it is our nature to sin, it is not our nature to sin as children of God in the divine Kingdom. There are many children still there who did not sin.

What it is our nature as children of God is to function with free will, God not interfering with our choices, but then intervening when our choices cause us to be lost in the far country, lost in the worlds of sin (sin = thought word and deed that perpetuates separation.)



I believe Sparko covered this one with Matthew 24 very accurately, an there are other references elswhere in the bible to his uniqueness.

It is mankind's pride in his "I", which is merely a temple, that causes him to interpret their scripture as indicating that only some of humanity is special enough to receive a Savior and a scripture.

Christians are not unique in this sin, Keepupthefire. It has been the impudence behind much hate and war.



I have come to believe there's more to this than what your letting on. What did they(your church) believe an what did they do to you? Private message me if you wish. Concerned I am for you.

My church preached the same that is found posted here on Tweb by those calling themselves Christian. They held as essential doctrine the same that Tweb holds to in their statement of faith.

I loved my church and still love it today. It is not because of them that I moved on in understanding, but because of revelation from the One True Teacher, Christ.



Show us where Lucifer claimed he was "saved" please. If anything Lucifer wanted to be God, equal with God. You know there was a reason he was kicked out of heaven. And nobody is "special" for God doesn't play favorites. Even God's "chosen" peoples the Israelites where foresaken(for they rejected there God) for a time so that the Gentiles(us) would receive salvation till the full number has come in. Show us where God claims your beliefs are special as well.

It is quite True, Fire, that God does not play favorites. All lost children will be saved. It is because of the lust for self that mankind has segregated themselves into those who are saved and those who are not through the distortion of the teachings of scriptures and many times of the scriptures itself.

All have been or will be chosen at one time to receive His Revelation and His Savior, Christ. As for Jesus and the Revealtions contained in the Bible, it was indeed the children of Israel who were chosen to receive Them.

And thus far in the history of mankind, these Revelations have been distorted in understanding by the lust for "I".

Isaiah 14:13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’


Most Christians profess that through their belief in Jesus they will be saved, their "I", body and all (or at least some perfected form of their "I"), and ascend into heaven, making their "I" Eternal just as God is.

There is only One God in Heaven, One I, and as long as the children of God are clinging to their I, they are making it their god and serving it, instead of the One divine I.

Their "I" though is merely a temporal temple, and like the reeds of grass will eventually return to the dust from which is was made.

In their pursuit of the satisfaction of their selfish wants and desires - including eternal life for the self - mankind has lost all connection with the child of God within them, and it is only in denying their "I", their self, that they will find that which is lost, that which Jesus and all Saviors came into this world to redeem.


Please explain what specific distortions an acts of selfishness do you refer to. And use scripture to back it up. Please.

Seeking personal salvation is selfishness. Jesus never said to seek for your self or your "I" to be save. He said seek the Kingdom of God and then gave parables describing what the Kingdom is, to enable us at the least to see the difference between seeking for self and seeking God's Kingdom.

Here are the teachings of Jesus and His disicples...

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon/material wealth/the treasures of this world.

He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


Yet in church we are taught to seek after the treasures of this world, to love our life, and to seek to save our life through the redemption of our "I" and its ascension into Heaven, even to the extent that we are told that the material things of this world, the treasures of this world, are God's blessings to His children.

Jesus said that it is evil men who give the blessings of this world to their children, but that the gift that God gives is His Spirit.

If one is praying for the treasures of this world - relationship, wealth, fun, pleasure, even health so that one may enjoy the riches of this fallen world - who are they actually praying to, Fire?

And thus most of the prayers of the supposed saved are selfish. They are not as Jesus instructed us to pray.

Even the worship of the saved is selfish...

I am loved. I am saved. I feel special. Come Holy Spirit, give me pleasure. Make me feel good.

God bless me with the riches of Lucifer's Kingdom.

Many even raise their hands, lifting them to the Heavens singing in word and thought "I will be saved! I will ascend into Heaven and be with you, God! I will rise through the clouds, above the angels and be at Your Throne! I will be like You God, and have Eternal Life!"

Isaiah 14...

'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

Actually, now he resides in an imperishable body of flesh, much like we will recieve when our bodies are glorified again. If he was indeed only spirit than we are still in our sins. It is necessary that blood be shed for our sins, therefore he needed to be fully man to be a proper sacrifice.

good day,

keepupthefire

No. The "I" that was known as Jesus cannot exist in the Kingdom, as Luficer's "I" cannot, nor can our "I". There is only one I in God's unfallen Realms - Christ, the image of the Father in creation.

How after all that Jesus and His disciples taught - about denying the self, hating our life as an "I", about not seeking to save our life - seeking for it to continue into Eternity, about the old man, about the self dying so that Christ can Live, about being crucified as Jesus was, about not loving this world or anything in it, including our "I" identities - can we remain imprisoned by the luciferic deception believing that our "I" will have Eternal Life?




mary

[Sparko]

Beanie, keepthefire is right. if you want to know what Jesus taught and what a real Christian is all about, read the new testament for yourself. GnosticMary cherrypicks verses and misreads others because of her 'gnostic' colored glasses. But don't take my word for it, read the bible for yourself. At least read the book of John and Romans if not the whole new testament. John will tell you who Jesus really is, not some 'christ spirit' but God himself. And Romans will teach you about mankind and sin and what we must to be saved.

[Beanieboy]

I think Beanieboy's Kiwanis story draws a false dichotomy. The atheist who sacrifices himself for his family is acting no more selflessly than the Christian that allows his family to drown.
I don't understand your response.

The atheist owned the boat. He had a family at home.
The family on the boat was Christian.
The athiest saved the Christian family, and according to how it was told, was going to hell, while the Christian father, that thought first of himself, will go to heaven.

Similar to what Sparko said, the instructor told us that no amount of good would get us into heaven.
And no amount of bad would keep us out as Christians.

But what does that tell me?
It says that it really doesn't matter what you do, because it is nothing but (a phrase often quoted to me by christians) filthy rags.
I comfort a friend, I work at a shelter for battered kids, I throw myself on a grenade to save my squad - all nothing.

And because the man who was christian thought of himself first, and still went to heaven, nothing a christian does will ever prevent him from heaven. He can break every commandment ritually, and say, "yeah, well, I'm forgiven."

It seems to me that were one to claim to be Christian, that they would be held to a higher standard by God, because they would know better.

But to suggest that deeds mean nothing is to make people unaccountable for their actions. And that makes the best atheist hellbound, and the worst christian heavenbound.

[Beanieboy]

The atheist, being the really nice guy that he is, drowned. But how nice was he compared to God? was he perfect? What did he do last week? Did he lie to his wife about an affair? Did he steal a pen from work? Did he cuss out his boss? Surely he has committed some selfish and bad acts before? And he rejects God and Christ. He has no forgiveness. He will go to hell.

But maybe God will have mercy on him because of his selfless act and he won't drown, and God will send him a good Christian to tell him about Jesus and one day that Atheist will become a Christian and go to heaven.

In the story, the man drowns, the end. It's a story.

However, what did he do last week?
I find it interesting that you say, "Was he perfect? Did he steal a pen?"
But at the same time, let's say that the worst thing he did in the last YEAR was steal a pen.
It still doesn't count, does it? So, it doesn't matter.

And the Christian father? He could be having an affair with his secretary, and steal money from his son's piggy jar to support his coke habit. But he's forgiven.

But I have to wonder - is anyone REALLY following Jesus if they know that they should, say, love their neighbor as themself, but shrug, and say, "well, I just HATE that guy at work. I am NOT going to love him. I don't care what the bible says..."?

I wonder how often people think - I have a get out of hell free card, so why should I worry about obeying the bible?

[Beanieboy]

despite your little tangent there, how does that even remotely answer my post? Jesus said those who believe in him are saved, those who do not are condemned. very simple.

No, it isn't that simple.

For example, there a parable of a Master who forgives a large debt owned to him by a man, but the man does not forgive the small debt owned to him by his servant.

The result? The man's debt was reinstated, and he was sold into slavery to pay it off.

So, if someone is Christian, but refuses to forgive others, even though they will say, "i believe in Jesus, I asked him into my heart," I question whether they will be forgiven.

That parable is another way to "follow Jesus" or "believe in Jesus." And if you claim to love Jesus, and believe in him, yet do not forgive others, you have missed a very important point of the Gospels.

When you show mercy, mercy is granted to you. When you do not, none is given.

[Beanieboy]

To Beanieboy,

Do you not see the contradiction between what she(Gnosticmary) says an what scripture says?

What you say is contradictory to scripture.
The parable of the sheep and goats had to do with actions.
They were judged on their actions, and those who did nothing, said, "Didn't we perform miracles and cast out demons in your name?

So, yes, deeds matter.

Jesus said, "If a man asks you to walk a mile with him, walk 2. If someone asks for your shirt, offer your coat as well."
Actions.

Jesus said, "Forgive you brother 70 x 7."

He tells a parable that says that the man who does not forgive others is himself not forgiven.

Your actions count.

I don't believe that any action, Christian or non, is filthy rags.
That's nonsense.

One should think, "were God to ask me what I did with my life, i want to tell him how I made the world a better place."



Look at Matthew 7 the narrow an the wide gates section. Gods way into heaven is very exclusive to those who accept what Jesus says is true.


The bible also refers to Jesus as the lamb that takes away the sin of the world, not the lamb that takes a away the sin of the world should we accept it.
Jesus either is our Savior, or he isn't.

Martin Zender talks about this in his book "Quitting Religion without Quitting God."

In it, he says that if Jesus came to die for the sins of the world, but the majority of the world still goes to hell, then Jesus' sacrifice did very little, and if we are going by who gets the most souls, Satan wins.

But what happened with Jesus should have pardoned the world.

He has a frustrating conversation with a christian woman, explaining why so many nonbelievers can't make sense of christianity:

Annie: Jesus is your Savior.
Martin: That's great.
Annie: You just have to believe in him.
Martin: Wait, now he's not?
Annie: No, he is.
Martin: Now he is again?
Annie: Yes, you just have to believe in him.
Martin; I have to activate my salvation?

He suggests that everyone eventually comes to God in their own way, and that eternal hell for temporary living is unscriptural.
You might want to check it out.

He also has a book called, Martin Zender goes to Hell, talking about the unscriptural concept of a torture chamber hell for nonbelievers.



Take a look at the Samaritan women at the well John 4:1-42


Jesus asks her for a drink. Remember the sheep and goats?

Remember to always ask this question "what is being offered here?"

Living water. Notice that Jesus is still alive, and offers it even then.


In the passage it will say "gift of God." Something that is given is not earned, and it must be recieved. Lets use this as an analogy, you carry a heavy burden called "sin" an in your hands you carry it..Can you recieve this new gift if your hands are full? No. You must empty your hands...yourself(die to yourself, be Born-Again).

No one "earns" salvation.
I agree with that.
But if one does nothing with their salvation, except says, "look at me! I go church. I put money in the offering. I go to bible study. I'm SO glad I'm not like my neighbors over their. I accepted Jesus and THEY didn't."

That's boasting. And that's the approach so many christians have - I'm better than you because I did this, and now I'm going to heaven, and you should do what I did.

Anyone questioning that threatens there superiority.

That's modern day christianity. Pharisee 101.

Also look at what Isaiah 64:6 an notice here that again every good work that is done is like filthy rags. The filthy rag part is about a womens uncleanliness(her period). It's like a child playing in pig manure trying to do good an whats right with pig filth in his hands. Everything he touches is defiled despite his intentions. First cleanse the inside of the bowl an the outside will be clean as Jesus said to the Pharisees. Part of the key is to understand why in the Old Testament an scapegoat was slaughtered for the remission of sins.

This does not suggest that it does not please God to do good things. It is saying that the people are not looking to God, nor are they acting righteous, but even their most righteous acts are nothing. This is because they are
Do you really think that one can give their time to volunteer as a Big Brother, or help a friend in need, and God just looks on with nothing but disgust?

One should do such acts, but in humility.


I have something for you to do as well, go to this website www.livingwaters.com (http://www.livingwaters.com/) an get there take on what exactly God is offering throughout his word. They have free videos there you can listen to. I would suggest "Hells best kept secret." What you do with this is your concern, whether you choose to accept this as truth is your task.


I was raised Christian, I went to a private Lutheran College, I worked at a Bible camp. I know the 4 Spiritual Laws, I studied the bible intently, I prayed, I've spoken in tongues.

That is why I disagree with you - because I asked God to reveal himself. He showed me that man builds churches, but they have become like cages to lock God in, so that they can go about their business, thinking that God "lives" there in his house. He has show me the cold hearts of some of his followers, who don't know God at all. And he has shown me the gentle hearts of those who aren't even let in the doors, due to church policy.

Maybe you should be doing some seeking of God.

[Sparko]

I was raised Christian, I went to a private Lutheran College, I worked at a Bible camp. I know the 4 Spiritual Laws, I studied the bible intently, I prayed, I've spoken in tongues.

That is why I disagree with you - because I asked God to reveal himself. He showed me that man builds churches, but they have become like cages to lock God in, so that they can go about their business, thinking that God "lives" there in his house. He has show me the cold hearts of some of his followers, who don't know God at all. And he has shown me the gentle hearts of those who aren't even let in the doors, due to church policy.

Maybe you should be doing some seeking of God.

So I was right then. You are not here seeking answers from a Christian perspective at all, you already know them. Instead you are here to rant and complain because you just don't "get" Christianity.

You don't understand forgiveness and you don't understand sin -- Despite having studied the bible working at a bible camp.

Yes, a Christian CAN sin and still go to heaven. What good would it be to be forgiven for all of your past sins and then be expected to live a perfect life after that with no sin? It is impossible while we live in our present fallen bodies. Does the fact that we are forgiven all of our sins, past and future, mean we can sin without consequences? NO. We will answer for our sins. The sins themselves have consequenses here on earth in lowering our quality of life, hindering our relationship with others and with God, and I expect we will lose rewards in heaven.

Just because we can sin and are forgiven does that also mean we should sin? NO. Paul even said as much in Roman's 6.


1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&version=31#fen-NIV-28060a)] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




But then you already know all that, don't you?

Well have fun with your rant. I hope my posts at least have helped others who have read this thread or will read it later.

[gnosticmary]

And because the man who was christian thought of himself first

Indeed, beanieboy.

And it is selfishness, or lust for self, that leads man to seek personal salvation. Jesus said we must lose our personal life to find Eternal Life, not seek to save it.

The picture you gave of the Christian man brought to mind a false Christian. His family, whom he willingly left behind, representing his human brothers.

Any who know of God and his Kingdom would never get onto the boat of salvation while leaving even one of their brethren behind.

The greatest love is laying down one's life for his brother.

Such a man as you describe is a hypocrite. Professing to follow Christ when he neither knows Him or is known by Him.

Here is a poem written by a true disciple of Christ...


I want to ply my boat, many times,
Across the gulf after death,
And return to Earth's shores,
From my home in Heaven.
I want to load my boat,
With those waiting, thirsty ones,
Who are left behind,
And carry them by the opal pool,
Of iridescent joy,
Where my Father distributes,
His all-desire-quenching liquid peace.
Oh, I will come again and again!
Crossing a million crags of suffering;
With bleeding feet I will come,
If need be, a trillion times,
So long as I know,
One stray brother is left behind.
I want Thee, Oh Lord,
That I may give Thee to all.
Free me, then, Oh God,
From the bondage of the body,
That I may show others,
How they can free themselves.
I want Thine everlasting bliss,
Only that I may share it with others;
That I may show all my brothers,
The way to happiness,
Forever and forever, in Thee.




mary

[Keepupthefire]

Yet in church we are taught to seek after the treasures of this world, to love our life, and to seek to save our life through the redemption of our "I" and its ascension into Heaven, even to the extent that we are told that the material things of this world, the treasures of this world, are God's blessings to His children.

I don't profess the Prosperity Theology as some churches do, nor does my church. Do you intend to say that what God made an said was very good from the beginning is all bad? Money in of itself is not bad. But how it's used, for what purposes is what matters. It takes wealth to give much. An those who seek to build up treasures in Heaven put there money where it has eternal value.

Genesis 13:1-7, Genesis 26:12-14, Genesis 30:43, Genesis 39:2-6, 1 Kings 3:13, Job 42:10-17 would all be a contradiction to what God has done if you continue in your displeasure of wealth in the hands of Christians. If God gives much to someone it is only because he has shown he has been a good steward of God's money an has been seen fit for more.

"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' In tithes an offerings. You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, " says the Lord Almighty, " and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." (Malachi 3:8-10)

Jesus said that it is evil men who give the blessings of this world to their children, but that the gift that God gives is His Spirit.
Matthew 7:11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


If one is praying for the treasures of this world - relationship, wealth, fun, pleasure, even health so that one may enjoy the riches of this fallen world - who are they actually praying to, Fire?

As usual your partly correct but: Once again see Matthew 7:11 An understand that it's not a sin having earthly riches. However, as stated before it is dependent upon what was done with the money. An don't bother with the verse: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a pinhole than for a richman to be saved." You see even some rich people are good stewards of what God gives them. Therefore they recieve more so they may give more. For God was always concerned about the poor.

Many even raise their hands, lifting them to the Heavens singing in word and thought "I will be saved! I will ascend into Heaven and be with you, God! I will rise through the clouds, above the angels and be at Your Throne! I will be like You God, and have Eternal Life!"

Isaiah 14...

'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’[/QUOTE]

You see it is not us(Christians) who proclaim that all of the above(that is above Isaiah 14 which you butchered to fit your desired effect) will be true it is God's desire for us. For the bible claims we shall be like him(Jesus), and we shall live eternally; not try to usurp his throne or sit on the mount of the congregation.

How after all that Jesus and His disciples taught - about denying the self, hating our life as an "I", about not seeking to save our life - seeking for it to continue into Eternity, about the old man, about the self dying so that Christ can Live, about being crucified as Jesus was, about not loving this world or anything in it, including our "I" identities - can we remain imprisoned by the luciferic deception believing that our "I" will have Eternal Life?

I quoted to Beanieboy: "In the passage it will say "gift of God." Something that is given is not earned, and it must be recieved. Lets use this as an analogy, you carry a heavy burden called "sin" an in your hands you carry it..Can you recieve this new gift if your hands are full? No. You must empty your hands...yourself(die to yourself, be Born-Again)."

We seem to be on the same page here Mary why do you insist I know not? A part of dying to oneself involves to carry my cross, to not follow my ways but Christs ways. Have I ever said I loved anything in this world to you? I think you misunderstand Scripture. I think your devotion is well intended Mary. I wish you well.

P.S. What makes every heresy dangerous is an element of truth. Without a sugar-coating of truth, the lies would never be swallowed. I will answer Beanieboys rebuttals after I have slept some.

Good day,

keepupthefire

mary[/QUOTE]

[Beanieboy]

My point of the thread was "how can jesus come into someone's heart, and turn it to stone," basically.

But, now I feel that you are arguing why don't I convert?

That's not my intention on this site, and Sparko is now angry that I am not truly seeking God, or whatever, or that he can't make another notch on his belt for "Souls Saved."
So, that's a good illustration. Sparko doesn't save anyone. He is simply the messenger, nothing more. But this is one of the tactics of some christians.

I once waited for a friend, and was approached by a man that said, "Can I talk to you about Jesus?" I said, "No thank you."
He said, "If you were to die tonight, do you know where you would go?"
I said, "Probably, to the morgue."
He said, "I know that I'm going to heaven."
I said, "You don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that.There's a difference."
He said, "No, I KNOW that."
And I said, "Doesn't faith count in your religion? Faith is not knowing, and believing. "
He got flustered, and I told him why I questioned Christianity, and as he left, he yelled, "Well, if you die tonight, you're going to HELL, and it on YOUR HEAD."

Um, thanks.
Not exactly the approach of Jesus in the Gospel.

And I think this issue bothers me, becasue that was the religion that I was raised on - christianity, and if christianity has people that are justifying hatred, or that it's ok to hate their enemies, or the "cling to what is good, hate what is evil" verse is permission to hate people that are evil (read any nonbeliever, but especially homosexuals), then this brand of xtianity is as much of a reason for the world being messed up than anything else.

It's like finding out that the Salvation Army is lining their pockets and justifying it, or that they are using the money to shut down homeless shelters.

It's really troubling.

[gnosticmary]

Hello fire.

Your heart is felt in this response - your love for God and for your brethren, truly desiring to serve. And so I thank you for your honest and sincere words.

I recognize where you are with your thoughts, having been there also myself. Again, I will share that there has only been love and support passed between the church that was dear to me and myself. Hearing what God was revealing being quite difficult and taking several years to accept.

In those blessed days, I had no idea of Gnostic or Gnosis and was only following my heart understanding of what was being taught. It was years later that i found that those taught the same by God called themselves gnostic, the Teaching referred to as Gnosis, or a True Knowing of God.

I don't profess the Prosperity Theology as some churches do, nor does my church. Do you intend to say that what God made an said was very good from the beginning is all bad? Money in of itself is not bad. But how it's used, for what purposes is what matters. It takes wealth to give much. An those who seek to build up treasures in Heaven put there money where it has eternal value.

What God made in Genesis 1 and called Good is not this world we see before us. God did not create sin and suffering. These are a consequence of man's free will choices and started to come into manifestation, with the help of cosmic evil, after we were kicked out of the Garden.

The word translated as money in the NT is mammon, which means material wealth, and includes much more than dollars and cents, but all that is of matter, material.

It is the love of, the desire and passion for, the riches of this world that is the root of all evil, the riches of the world certainty not being created by God.

Any who love this world and anything in it (mammon) does not have the love of the Father in them. - John

Genesis 13:1-7, Genesis 26:12-14, Genesis 30:43, Genesis 39:2-6, 1 Kings 3:13, Job 42:10-17 would all be a contradiction to what God has done if you continue in your displeasure of wealth in the hands of Christians. If God gives much to someone it is only because he has shown he has been a good steward of God's money an has been seen fit for more.

"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' In tithes an offerings. You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, " says the Lord Almighty, " and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." (Malachi 3:8-10)

The OT was used in expanding my own understanding and so can certainty be helpful, if we let the One True Teacher guide us.

However, it must be remembered that the OT was given to a nomadic tribe to guide them into right understand, it itself not being Truth but shadows and images of Truth, as Paul tells us.

Also, i do not consider the Jews trustworthy in keeping the True Revelations given them uncontaminated over the years, and so always remain open for God to reveal the greater understanding outside the words of the OT, that may not be obvious in a literal reading.

What God did teach, in using the OT alone, was that it was not the literal obedience to the commandments that God was seeking, but the working of the laws and rituals in the hearts of the children of Israel, leading them into greater understanding.

[check out Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7. The notes in my Bible regarding the revelation received regarding these two verses says: it is not the performing the Law in itself that God was looking for, but the state of one's heart, which is evidenced in how we treat our brethren.]

But Israel, as all of humankind does eventually, looked to the lusts of self and lost this Message, thereby becoming open to deception by false gods, which I feel also distorted their Scripture. The Bible itself claims that Israel at one time lost the books of Moses (does not sound like they were taking very good care of them, eh?) and one of the books of Moses was eventually found again.

The true meaning of the OT is something only the One True Teacher can guide you into, but it requires that one hold losely to their present understanding, which in reality is just a tradition of man.




Matthew 7:11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

I prefer Luke 11:13, where it is explained exactly what are the good gifts from God -

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!




As usual your partly correct but: Once again see Matthew 7:11 An understand that it's not a sin having earthly riches. However, as stated before it is dependent upon what was done with the money. An don't bother with the verse: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a pinhole than for a richman to be saved." You see even some rich people are good stewards of what God gives them. Therefore they recieve more so they may give more. For God was always concerned about the poor.

God's Kingdom is not of this world. His riches are not the riches of this world. There is so much behind understanding what this world is and how satan uses this world to deceive us, that i feel it beyond this thread to go into.

If one takes the commandments of Jesus seriously, they will be led into the Truth that makes one free.



Isaiah 14...

'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

You see it is not us(Christians) who proclaim that all of the above(that is above Isaiah 14 which you butchered to fit your desired effect) will be true it is God's desire for us. For the bible claims we shall be like him(Jesus), and we shall live eternally; not try to usurp his throne or sit on the mount of the congregation.

I quoted Isaiah 14 just as it appears in the NKJV and just yesterday noted how very similar it is to the worship hymns sung at my church, few of which are about the True God, but about our passions and desires of self and having those met- especially our seeking to save our life and praising God for doing what is in contradiction with what Jesus taught.

I know this is hard to See, fire - for it took me years, but it is the Christian church that has butchered the Scriptures.

He who deceives the entire world.



I quoted to Beanieboy: "In the passage it will say "gift of God." Something that is given is not earned, and it must be recieved. Lets use this as an analogy, you carry a heavy burden called "sin" an in your hands you carry it..Can you recieve this new gift if your hands are full? No. You must empty your hands...yourself(die to yourself, be Born-Again)."

We seem to be on the same page here Mary why do you insist I know not? A part of dying to oneself involves to carry my cross, to not follow my ways but Christs ways. Have I ever said I loved anything in this world to you? I think you misunderstand Scripture. I think your devotion is well intended Mary. I wish you well.

P.S. What makes every heresy dangerous is an element of truth. Without a sugar-coating of truth, the lies would never be swallowed. I will answer Beanieboys rebuttals after I have slept some.

Good day,

keepupthefire



I do see that you are moving in the right, direction, fire. And would not worry about what man calls heresy, for it just means that someone is seeing things differently than man's tradition (Jesus was a heretic!).

Let men call me what they will. It is God whom I serve.

This brings to mind the words from one of my favorite hymns...

Be Thou my Vision, O Lord of my heart;
Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
Thou my best Thought, by day or by night,
Waking or sleeping, Thy presence my light.

Be Thou my Wisdom, and Thou my true Word;
I ever with Thee and Thou with me, Lord;
Thou my great Father, I Thy true son;
Thou in me dwelling, and I with Thee one.

Riches I heed not, nor man’s empty praise,
Thou mine Inheritance, now and always:
Thou and Thou only, first in my heart,
High King of Heaven, my Treasure Thou art.

High King of Heaven, my victory won,
May I reach Heaven’s joys, O bright Heaven’s Sun!
Heart of my own heart, whatever befall,
Still be my Vision, O Ruler of all.


If you are following the teachings of Jesus as He taught them, not as tradition has interpreted them then you will be led into right understanding.

[i]Do not fear, simple believe.




mary

[flipper]

My point of the thread was "how can jesus come into someone's heart, and turn it to stone," basically.

But, now I feel that you are arguing why don't I convert?

That's not my intention on this site, and Sparko is now angry that I am not truly seeking God, or whatever, or that he can't make another notch on his belt for "Souls Saved."

Hey Bean,

So I'm interested to know what you're looking for from Christianity on this site or The Other Location? You've covered this ground many, many times before on both and, as Sparko observes, you already know the arguments from either side very, very well.

I'm not disapproving, I'm just interested - what are you hoping to achieve? Are you trying to talk more fundamentalist Christians into acceptance of homosexuality - it's not going to happen. Are you looking for validation from them? Also, not going to happen, even if they are kinder about it in TOL.

I've watched you banging your head against the same wall for nearly 4 years now. It's probably time to point out that you're banging your head against the wall because apparently you don't know or you wouldn't seem to be expecting a different outcome each time you do it.

[Sparko]

My point of the thread was "how can jesus come into someone's heart, and turn it to stone," basically.

But, now I feel that you are arguing why don't I convert?

That's not my intention on this site, and Sparko is now angry that I am not truly seeking God, or whatever, or that he can't make another notch on his belt for "Souls Saved."
So, that's a good illustration. Sparko doesn't save anyone. He is simply the messenger, nothing more. But this is one of the tactics of some christians.

I once waited for a friend, and was approached by a man that said, "Can I talk to you about Jesus?" I said, "No thank you."
He said, "If you were to die tonight, do you know where you would go?"
I said, "Probably, to the morgue."
He said, "I know that I'm going to heaven."
I said, "You don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that.There's a difference."
He said, "No, I KNOW that."
And I said, "Doesn't faith count in your religion? Faith is not knowing, and believing. "
He got flustered, and I told him why I questioned Christianity, and as he left, he yelled, "Well, if you die tonight, you're going to HELL, and it on YOUR HEAD."

Um, thanks.
Not exactly the approach of Jesus in the Gospel.

And I think this issue bothers me, becasue that was the religion that I was raised on - christianity, and if christianity has people that are justifying hatred, or that it's ok to hate their enemies, or the "cling to what is good, hate what is evil" verse is permission to hate people that are evil (read any nonbeliever, but especially homosexuals), then this brand of xtianity is as much of a reason for the world being messed up than anything else.

It's like finding out that the Salvation Army is lining their pockets and justifying it, or that they are using the money to shut down homeless shelters.

It's really troubling.


uh, don't join the circus as a mind reader, beanieboy, you are not good at it. I am not angry at all, or trying to convert you as my pet project. I am simply sharing what Christians believe in response to what I thought was a genuine inquiry into how can some Christians behave badly and are they really Christians. Instead you were just trolling and wanting a forum to rant in. Again, that is perfectly fine. I said what I wanted to say. I am not angry. I was not trying to 'convert' you any more than I do anyone else by sharing the gospel with them. I was merely trying to give you insight into Chrisitanity, but apparently you know it all already.

This IS a debate site and you will get debate and discussion on your posts. Disagreement does not mean anger.

See ya around.

[Beanieboy]

Hey Bean,

So I'm interested to know what you're looking for from Christianity on this site or The Other Location? You've covered this ground many, many times before on both and, as Sparko observes, you already know the arguments from either side very, very well.

I'm not disapproving, I'm just interested - what are you hoping to achieve? Are you trying to talk more fundamentalist Christians into acceptance of homosexuality - it's not going to happen. Are you looking for validation from them? Also, not going to happen, even if they are kinder about it in TOL.

I've watched you banging your head against the same wall for nearly 4 years now. It's probably time to point out that you're banging your head against the wall because apparently you don't know or you wouldn't seem to be expecting a different outcome each time you do it.

I'm mostly decompressing, and maybe trying to understand the fundamentalist side, or make some sense of why how someone can claim to love God and cheerfully proclaim that they hate you, and can't wait to see Jesus slaughter you. I mean, that's really twisted.

Just coming from there, I've had someone tell me that the best way to save a homo was to put his head in a guillatine. Does that sound like something Jesus would say? Can you imagine Jesus sitting down to eat with the taxcollector and prostitutes saying that the best way to save them would be to behead them?

And of the group, no questioning. No rebuke. Maybe a gentle, "hm, I don't know if that's the BEST way..."

I'm in no way looking for approval of homosexuality, nor looking to be accepted or whatever. I have never worried about what other people think of me personally. I am concerned about the general hatred of anyone outside of their brand of Christianity (sorry, but most of you would fall in the "not a real Christian" category.)

I'm just wondering why the HS doesn't way on people's hearts who are hellbent on killing off the heathens.

Another example, Flipper, and you have seen this:
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28247c)] Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28250d)]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28251e)] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


They use the passage: Let you love be without hypocracy. Cling to what is Good, abhor what is evil.
This they take to give them liscence to hate "evil" people.

But how can you possibly get that from a passage instructing you how to love?

[Beanieboy]

uh, don't join the circus as a mind reader, beanieboy, you are not good at it. I am not angry at all, or trying to convert you as my pet project. I am simply sharing what Christians believe in response to what I thought was a genuine inquiry into how can some Christians behave badly and are they really Christians. Instead you were just trolling and wanting a forum to rant in. Again, that is perfectly fine. I said what I wanted to say. I am not angry. I was not trying to 'convert' you any more than I do anyone else by sharing the gospel with them. I was merely trying to give you insight into Chrisitanity, but apparently you know it all already.

This IS a debate site and you will get debate and discussion on your posts. Disagreement does not mean anger.

See ya around.

I think we are arguing different points.
I am asking, for example, how an entire group of people can read Romans 12:9, and walk away, thinking it is commanded by God to hate "evil" or anyone who does not agree with their theology.

My concern is not christians in general. Most here are, well, sane.
But there is such a loud, disturbing vocal minority that leads people to believe that they are the majority. One can quickly list Pat Robertson, Pat Bucchanon, James Dobson, Oral Roberts...

And for the more liberal side? Um. Billy Graham. um. Um. ???

It seems to me that there should be a great concern from others to look at fundamentalist christianity, and realize what it is doing to the world as whole. It is taking the angriest parts of God, and downplaying the rest. It brags about separating believers (quoting from Jesus), supports war ("I did not come to bring peace but came with a sword") etc.

It seems that this should be something that disturbs church.

[Beanieboy]

Hey Bean,

So I'm interested to know what you're looking for from Christianity on this site or The Other Location?

You know, I don't think it is Christianity specifically that I am looking for.
In this thread, I'm asking how followers can appear to be so offbase.
One response it that Christians aren't cookie cutters. But wanting to kill all the homos isn't a slight sin. It's having murder in your heart, and an endorsement from others. That's a big big difference.

On the HatingForJesus.com, I wasn't able to ask anything about God.
It went like this:

Me: Do you think that prayer matters? A woman prays that it will be sunny for her wedding, and a farmer prays that it will rain for his crops. But doesn't the weather just kind of happen? Do you think that God is like a DJ taking requests, and intervenes, or do things just kind of happen sometimes?
Response: You are a sex addict. Repent.

That's about as far as most of the conversations went.
Any challenges that they couldn't answer reverted to name calling and being a homo. It was rather pointless.

But I felt like I was supposed to be there - to speak out, to speak up, about claiming to believe in something, and acting the exact opposite.

And yeah, after 4 years, I suppose I've said all that I can say.

[gnosticmary]

I'm just wondering why the HS doesn't way on people's hearts who are hellbent on killing off the heathens.

Another example, Flipper, and you have seen this:
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28247c)] Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28250d)]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28251e)] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


They use the passage: Let you love be without hypocracy. Cling to what is Good, abhor what is evil.
This they take to give them liscence to hate "evil" people.

But how can you possibly get that from a passage instructing you how to love?


Because they love the self more than God and extract from True Teachings that which justifies their selfish ways.

Those who love the self, who love this world, do not have the Love of God in them and are deaf and blind to the Holy Spirit. As Jesus said, their Father is not the Father He revealed, their father is the devil, and it is the spirit of lucifer that is convicting them and guiding them.

However, God is always there waiting, should they feel to repent and turn from their selfish ways.

Homosexuality in itself is not a sin, beanie, it is homosexualtiy practiced in selfishness, just as selfishness in all things is a sin.

And all of humanity is selfish, it is just expressed differently through each of us.


mary

[flipper]

I'm mostly decompressing, and maybe trying to understand the fundamentalist side, or make some sense of why how someone can claim to love God and cheerfully proclaim that they hate you, and can't wait to see Jesus slaughter you. I mean, that's really twisted.

Just coming from there, I've had someone tell me that the best way to save a homo was to put his head in a guillatine. Does that sound like something Jesus would say? Can you imagine Jesus sitting down to eat with the taxcollector and prostitutes saying that the best way to save them would be to behead them?


Maybe not the New Testament Jesus. But the next time Jesus is supposed to be coming (if you believe Revelation) he's coming in the avatar of The Fighting Jesus who smites the nations. So I can, I suppose, see where they are coming from on this one.

The Old Testament God wasn't likely to sit down with adulterers and tax collectors either and was prone to a smiting things, and they aren't different creatures, just different faces on a coin.

I can understand the need to decompress, honestly I can. It's one reason why I don't spend much time over at the other board because it destroys compassionate thought. On the other hand, when I find myself drawing all the same patterns out over again, I'm careful to ask myself why and try to review my motives with as little bias as I can muster.

[Beanieboy]

That's good food for thought. Thanks.

[flipper]

I'm mostly decompressing, and maybe trying to understand the fundamentalist side...

...And of the group, no questioning. No rebuke. Maybe a gentle, "hm, I don't know if that's the BEST way

I guess that's why they call it fundamentalism.

But how can you possibly get that from a passage instructing you how to love?

It's not me you need to convince.

[flipper]

That's good food for thought. Thanks.

Heck, I admire your practice. You were far more patient and polite in your inquiries than I was ever able to manage.

[Keepupthefire]

What you say is contradictory to scripture.
The parable of the sheep and goats had to do with actions.
They were judged on their actions, and those who did nothing, said, "Didn't we perform miracles and cast out demons in your name?


In my last thread to you where did I ever mention the sheep an goats passage. I never said anything there that was contradictory to scripture. All I asked was for you to look for yourself an ask God for help in it.


So, yes, deeds matter.

An here I thought that we had already been through this an had got this across to you. Ok I'm going to try one more time an explain this to you. If you wish to believe that deeds matter in salvation...then you believe it is by the law. Deeds only show that what you say is true.

Faith without deeds is dead. I understand this subject but you don't understand the interpretation here. Catholics always point to this for there works by salvation tradition. But you must understand that your actions follow what you truely believe. You truely don't believe if your actions betray what you say. Bad fruit does not come from a good tree.

If good people wish to believe that deeds matter than it follows that: Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgement(Hebrews 9:27). You will be judged for every careless thought, deed an saying. The rules will be this. He will judge you by the Ten Commandments. Have you kept them? Ever Lied(white lie, fibs, all the same)? Ever lusted after a women? Jesus said that whosoever looks at a women with lust has already committed adultry with her in his heart. Ever stolen anything(regardless of value)? Ever hated(called them a fool, ect..) anyone ever? If you say yes then you are a murderer according to Jesus. Ever taken the Lord's name in vain? If yes you have blasphemed his Holy name(dragged it through the mud like a four-letter filth name) Have you always kept the Sabbath day(that is to take one day in seven to rest and to devote yourself to the things of God)? If not you have not kept his Sabbath. Honor your Father an Mother, have you always obeyed them(exception when it causes you to sin against God)? If not, you are not sinning merely against your parents but also against God. Have you ever coveted(desired something that is not yours)? Nobody has kept these, ever.

Jesus also says in James 2:10 that anyone who has broken just one of these commandments is guilty of all of the Commandments. Revelations 21:8 says that all liars, murderers, sexually immoral, an those who practice magic shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven, but be thrown into the lake of fire reserved for Satan forever to be tortured in the lake of fire. How much more exclusive can you get? These people that Mary claim will all be saved shall not be saved. Only those written in the Book of Life shall inherit eternal life.

Quote: Originally posted by gnosticmary

"It is quite True, Fire, that God does not play favorites. All lost children will be saved[(not according to the above)not in the original]. It is because of the lust for self that mankind has segregated themselves into those who are saved and those who are not through the distortion of the teachings of scriptures and many times of the scriptures itself." Unquote


1 Corinthians6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Jesus said, "If a man asks you to walk a mile with him, walk 2. If someone asks for your shirt, offer your coat as well."
Actions.

Jesus said, "Forgive you brother 70 x 7."

He tells a parable that says that the man who does not forgive others is himself not forgiven.

Your actions count.

I don't believe that any action, Christian or non, is filthy rags.
That's nonsense.

One should think, "were God to ask me what I did with my life, i want to tell him how I made the world a better place."

Actions only gain heavenly gifts for a Christian but does not attain salvation for him. It is prideful to say we attain salvation by our own efforts. For Christianity is not like religion in that we reach out to God, rather he reaches down to us. Christianity is a relationship not ritual(religion).

Our actions are fruits of our salvation not means of our salvation. A bad tree does not produce good fruit. Those who follow after Christ do good works because they have been given much, therefore return much back. They return the love back to God by serving others(poor, the hurting, those he need a light in a dark world).

Sometimes we fail in this area an find ourselves needing to repent. If rather we remain unconvicted of our transgression then I question that persons salvation. Your analogy of the atheist an the family of believers was a bad analogy, because it did not take into account that the husband that was a believer was truly saved or not. Also, if he was indeed saved was he not ashamed of loving his life, an falling upon his knees in repentence would be what he needed to do. There are no sins (except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit) which are unforgivable to God. Christians can sin large or small an still receive forgiveness.



The bible also refers to Jesus as the lamb that takes away the sin of the world, not the lamb that takes a away the sin of the world should we accept it.
Jesus either is our Savior, or he isn't.

Jesus is believed to be the Lamb who takes the away the sin of the world by Satan but he shall not be saved by belief alone. It requires Faith(trust).
You don't just believe in a parachute an think it will save you. You have to put it on. Put Jesus on.

Martin Zender talks about this in his book "Quitting Religion without Quitting God."

In it, he says that if Jesus came to die for the sins of the world, but the majority of the world still goes to hell, then Jesus' sacrifice did very little, and if we are going by who gets the most souls, Satan wins.

But what happened with Jesus should have pardoned the world.

God considers every person as invaluable to him, and with one person saved is a majority to him. Even if Satan would take all people to Hell but one, Jesus still would have died upon the cross.

He has a frustrating conversation with a christian woman, explaining why so many nonbelievers can't make sense of christianity:

Annie: Jesus is your Savior.
Martin: That's great.
Annie: You just have to believe in him.
Martin: Wait, now he's not?
Annie: No, he is.
Martin: Now he is again?
Annie: Yes, you just have to believe in him.
Martin; I have to activate my salvation?

He suggests that everyone eventually comes to God in their own way, and that eternal hell for temporary living is unscriptural.
You might want to check it out.

He also has a book called, Martin Zender goes to Hell, talking about the unscriptural concept of a torture chamber hell for nonbelievers.

Martin Zender(If you undertand him correctly, I haven't read his book) is in error. And his setting up a straw man arguement doesn't work. The woman here has not been equipped to answer such a question an he prays upon that weakness. Scripture talks of Gnashing of teeth, lake of fire, the worm that wont perish, the pit, an more. All reserved for those who reject Christs sacrifice. Hell is a literal place reserved originally for Angels.

Jesus asks her for a drink. Remember the sheep and goats?

Living water. Notice that Jesus is still alive, and offers it even then.

No one "earns" salvation.
I agree with that.
But if one does nothing with their salvation, except says, "look at me! I go church. I put money in the offering. I go to bible study. I'm SO glad I'm not like my neighbors over their. I accepted Jesus and THEY didn't."

That's boasting. And that's the approach so many christians have - I'm better than you because I did this, and now I'm going to heaven, and you should do what I did.

Anyone questioning that threatens there superiority.

That's modern day christianity. Pharisee 101.

I'm sorry but Paul says to Boast in the things of God. Nobody I personally know at my church boasts in anything they have done. They understand that it is neither by power or might but by the Lord. They boast in the things of the Lord. Not in themselves.

This does not suggest that it does not please God to do good things. It is saying that the people are not looking to God, nor are they acting righteous, but even their most righteous acts are nothing. This is because they are
Do you really think that one can give their time to volunteer as a Big Brother, or help a friend in need, and God just looks on with nothing but disgust?

You have not taken the word for what it says in Isaiah 64:6. You have made a God to suit yourself an have broken the second commandment by making this statement. Your accountability is towards God alone. You have placed personal interpretation above scripture. Scripture interprets scripture. It says what it says, don't make assertions. If you wish to say something is not what it says make a proper judgement.

The Lord takes no delight in your sacrifices, nor your offerering for they are defiled. Clean the inside of the cup and dish first an than the outside will be clean.

This scripture here says that you must clean the inside(salvation by the Blood of the Lamb; seek first the kingdom of God an then all these things will be added onto you) first then your good works will build treasures in Heaven. As for the big Brother Big Sister an such good works I commend you for them. However, they shall find no favor before the eyes of the Lord. Unless you repent, an recieve Christ Jesus you shall not inherit his kingdom.

One should do such acts, but in humility.

Amen! Always with humility.


I was raised Christian, I went to a private Lutheran College, I worked at a Bible camp. I know the 4 Spiritual Laws, I studied the bible intently, I prayed, I've spoken in tongues.

That is why I disagree with you - because I asked God to reveal himself. He showed me that man builds churches, but they have become like cages to lock God in, so that they can go about their business, thinking that God "lives" there in his house. He has show me the cold hearts of some of his followers, who don't know God at all. And he has shown me the gentle hearts of those who aren't even let in the doors, due to church policy.

Maybe you should be doing some seeking of God.

You apply the misdeeds of other Christians upon me. Unfortunate. I don't consider what others have done to be what agrees with me, but yet you stereotype me regardless. God is not in the building itself, the building is merely a place to shelter the real church(the body of true believers). God resides within us for we are his temple. And I have heard policies an mistakes of churches turning away people such as yourself. They grieve the Holy Spirit.
I am not your enemy here B.

Good day,

keepupthefire

[gnosticmary]

Quote: Originally posted by gnosticmary

"It is quite True, Fire, that God does not play favorites. All lost children will be saved[(not according to the above)not in the original]. It is because of the lust for self that mankind has segregated themselves into those who are saved and those who are not through the distortion of the teachings of scriptures and many times of the scriptures itself." Unquote


1 Corinthians6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The Church very early on removed as heresy one essential verity that sealed the coffin on their control over the masses through inciting fear.

Reincarnation.

This is why we have such disparity of beliefs among Christians regarding Mercy and Judgment. Without understanding reincarnation, Jesus' Teachings regarding a Merciful, Loving, yet Just God make no sense.

This is certainly not the place to argue this verity, nor would i expect anyone to accept this on my word, for even with the Spirit of God guiding me, it was difficult to break free from the programming done by the culture and religious thought i was born into, but i will share that each soul is given as many personalities as it needs (each personality only having one life, one chance at judgment) to find its way out of hell, the outer darkness - which is this world - and enter into the Kingdom through repentence and the subsequent receipt of Grace.

God's Mercy will not fail.

But it is not until we free ourselves from the prison of man's traditions that we will be able to connect with the Spirit of God, the Living Waters, who will guide us into right understanding.

Do not be afraid, fire, beanie and all who read this. Man's teachings will fail you, but God never will. Keep knocking, keep seeking His Kingdom, His Truth and you will receive it, abundantly.



mary

[Beanieboy]

Faith without deeds is dead. I understand this subject but you don't understand the interpretation here.
I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't assume that I don't or can't understand.

Faith without deeds is dead.
That means that if you faith isn't making you do things-helping those in need-then you "faith" is dead, is not active or living. You say you love Jesus, and do nothing.

I argue often with people that you can't simply profess Jesus with your heart, and sit on your hands and wait to die. That's when Jesus said, "I was hungry and you did not feed me."
If deeds didn't matter, Jesus wouldn't have said the many things one should do.
Do they guarantee your way to heaven? Of course not.
But who can say, "Hey, Jesus. I said the prayer and did nothing for you. Can I come in?"

I have respect for the Catholic Church.
You argue that they teach that one must do deeds for salvation.
But can you support that someone can claim to love Jesus, and do NOTHING their entire life, drink, lust, commit adultery, and just say, "yeah, well, I'm forgiven..." Being saved is not only NOT a liscence to sin, but one who knows better will probably be held to a higher standard, won't they?
If you know and believe the word of God, it is a far greater sin to disobey willingly, than to disobey that which you don't believe.

My Catholic friend said that she would go to confession. Being Lutheran, I asked her about it. She said, "I would go to the priest, and say that I hit my little brother and said some really mean things." He would say, "How do you feel about it?" She would say, 'Sorry. It was wrong."
He would say, "Ok. For the next month, make your brother's bed."

Now, does making her brother's bed make her sins forgiven?
No. But a simply, "yeah, I'm sorry or whatever" just lets you off the hook easily.
Doing something to reverse your thinking - I'm gong to make his bed to SHOW my repentence, and to do good to make up for the bad I caused - acutally makes her practice doing good for her brother.

And hopefully, when she's done with the month, she will see opportunity to love her brother as her neighbor, and to do things for him without being asked, or without thinking of it as payback.

I have a lot of respect for that.

I can personally say that I always worried about money. When I saw people begging for change, the Salvation Army, friend's that needed a spot, I didn't want to give. But when I got into the practice of giving without needing to receive, it made me more generous, less stressed about my own situation.
Do I think that "Jesus owes me" for being generous with the little I have?
No. I'm thankful that I have been led to being generous. That IS the reward.




Catholics always point to this for there works by salvation tradition. But you must understand that your actions follow what you truely believe.

I agree. As AM points out, there is good fruit on christian and non-christian trees alike, and bad fruit on christian and non-christian trees alike.



You will be judged for every careless thought, deed an saying. The rules will be this. He will judge you by the Ten Commandments. Have you kept them? Ever Lied(white lie, fibs, all the same)? Ever lusted after a women? Jesus said that whosoever looks at a women with lust has already committed adultry with her in his heart.

Um, no, I have never lusted after a woman.


Ever stolen anything(regardless of value)? Ever hated(called them a fool, ect..) anyone ever? If you say yes then you are a murderer according to Jesus. Ever taken the Lord's name in vain? If yes you have blasphemed his Holy name(dragged it through the mud like a four-letter filth name) Have you always kept the Sabbath day(that is to take one day in seven to rest and to devote yourself to the things of God)? If not you have not kept his Sabbath. Honor your Father an Mother, have you always obeyed them(exception when it causes you to sin against God)? If not, you are not sinning merely against your parents but also against God. Have you ever coveted(desired something that is not yours)? Nobody has kept these, ever.

Sure, I've done bad things.
But one will also be judged on the good things they do as well, will they not?
As the sheep and goats story goes, "When did I see you sick, and comfort you???" They loved their neighbor as themselves. Jesus thanked them.
If one tries to keep the commandments - tries to love their neighbor as themself, be honest, gentle, kind, slow to anger, etc., I have a hard time believing that God will say, "Hm, on Jan 3, 2002, you lied about your age. TO HELL WITH YOU!" In fact, I know in my heart that is not the Truth of God. When we have children, we encourage them in their walking. Sometimes they stumble, and we tell them to get back up, and say, "good job - good try."

Do you think that your child would try if you said, "NO! YOU FELL! I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE NOT WALKING PERFECTLY!"
God is just. He doesn't expect perfection. He expects us to strive for it, by seeking him.




Jesus also says in James 2:10 that anyone who has broken just one of these commandments is guilty of all of the Commandments. Revelations 21:8 says that all liars, murderers, sexually immoral, an those who practice magic shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven, but be thrown into the lake of fire reserved for Satan forever to be tortured in the lake of fire. How much more exclusive can you get? These people that Mary claim will all be saved shall not be saved. Only those written in the Book of Life shall inherit eternal life.

If you have lied, then you are going to hell?
It says, "liars." It doesn't say non-forgiven liars.


1 Corinthians6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Jesus said to the thief on the cross that today he would be with him in Paradise. The thief didn't ask Jesus into his heart, nor did he ask forgiveness of sin. He simply honored Jesus, and criticized the one who was disrepecting him.


Actions only gain heavenly gifts for a Christian but does not attain salvation for him. It is prideful to say we attain salvation by our own efforts.

I never said that one attains salvation through actions.
But Jesus cursed a fig tree that did not produce fruit.
What does that say to you?

What is also prideful are those who say, "I"M a christian because I asked Jesus into my heart, and YOU didn't."
That's pride. You didn't save yourself. You did nothing but allowed someone else to save you. That's why I'm always surprised by those who think themselves holy and superior, as if they saved themselves by their action of accepting Jesus.



Martin Zender(If you undertand him correctly, I haven't read his book) is in error.

Martin Zender is a Christian, and everything he says is based on the bible.
His book - How to Quit Religion without Quitting God, examines modern religion, and how it has strayed from it's original intention.
However, before you make a judgement, I suggest gettng the facts. Read it, and see whether his argument is a strawman or not.
Everything he said made sense.



You apply the misdeeds of other Christians upon me. Unfortunate. I don't consider what others have done to be what agrees with me, but yet you stereotype me regardless. God is not in the building itself, the building is merely a place to shelter the real church(the body of true believers). God resides within us for we are his temple. And I have heard policies an mistakes of churches turning away people such as yourself. They grieve the Holy Spirit.
I am not your enemy here B.

Good day,

keepupthefire

I have no idea why you would assume that I think you are.

I went to another place, people were very rude, hateful, vulgar, and wished me dead. So, I asked, "how can one ask for Jesus to come into their heart, but be filled with such bitter fruit?" I can understand being a false Christian - saying you are, but never going to church, reading the bible or praying.

But these people DO pray, DO read the bible, and the HS seems, well, not to move at all.

That's why I find it so puzzling. That is the group I'm talking about.

It's not you, or most of the posters here.

But this is the frustrating thing.
If someone who was African American said, "some white people are so frustrating. They follow me around in stores, like I'm going to steal, but I'm a doctor. The women clutch their purses when I walk by...

Is the propper response from me, "I don't do that!!!"
Or is it understanding what they are saying - "Yeah, some people do that, and racism is more covert now, which seems even harder to address than when it's obvious."

See the difference?

[Sparko]

If you have lied, then you are going to hell?
It says, "liars." It doesn't say non-forgiven liars.

Actually it does.
1 Cor. 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

--
I agree with a lot of your post beanieboy. Those who just claim forgiveness but treat others with hatred need to question if they are saved or not. Those who claim forgiveness but do not do anything for Christ need to question whether they are saved or not. If they think and teach that Christ taught hatred then they are misled.

[Beanieboy]

The problem is that most christians believe that one is not saved by works, but by accepting Jesus. So, they say they believe that Jesus is the son of God, ask for forgiveness of sins, and for Jesus to come into their heart.

Then, once in the gates, assume that they can behave or misbehave as they wish.
It's bizarre for me to see people exhalt themselves, and say, "YOU are a sinner! I'm forgiven!" And I think - you are exhalting yourself? Surely, you know what the bible says about that. If anything, you should lower your head and be grateful.

Human nature, I suppose.

[Sparko]

The problem is that most christians believe that one is not saved by works, but by accepting Jesus. So, they say they believe that Jesus is the son of God, ask for forgiveness of sins, and for Jesus to come into their heart.

Then, once in the gates, assume that they can behave or misbehave as they wish.
It's bizarre for me to see people exhalt themselves, and say, "YOU are a sinner! I'm forgiven!" And I think - you are exhalting yourself? Surely, you know what the bible says about that. If anything, you should lower your head and be grateful.

Human nature, I suppose.


I think where you are wrong is thinking "most" Christians are that way. And partially it is a viewpoint problem. You are seeing it through your own filters. You see someone saying they are "forgiven" as "exalting themselves" and putting you down as a lesser being. That is the farthest from the truth for most Christians. We KNOW we are still sinners and no better than you. We are grateful that God will forgive us but we KNOW we don't deserve it. That is the whole point of grace. We don't deserve to be forgiven but we are. And we want you to have that forgiveness too. If you see me saying I am better than you because I am forgiven, then you have not been reading me right. I am no better than you. You might even be a better human being than I am. But God's forgiveness is available to you too.

[Beanieboy]

I think where you are wrong is thinking "most" Christians are that way. And partially it is a viewpoint problem. You are seeing it through your own filters. You see someone saying they are "forgiven" as "exalting themselves" and putting you down as a lesser being. That is the farthest from the truth for most Christians. We KNOW we are still sinners and no better than you. We are grateful that God will forgive us but we KNOW we don't deserve it. That is the whole point of grace. We don't deserve to be forgiven but we are. And we want you to have that forgiveness too. If you see me saying I am better than you because I am forgiven, then you have not been reading me right. I am no better than you. You might even be a better human being than I am. But God's forgiveness is available to you too.

To say, "I've been forgiven because God has mercy upon me," isn't exhalting oneself in the least. That's humble.

Now, while it isn't "most" christians, there are people that openly exhalt themselves "I'm forgiven and YOU'RE not! I'm not evil like you! I'm going to heaven!" (I can suggest a website if you would like to visit the viper pit).
Is this person exhalting themselves? Are they suggesting they are better than?

However, there is a sublter way people do this - the garter snake.
They go to church, they go to bible study, and then they walk to the store and pass someone and think, 'I'm SO glad I'm not like them..."

It's more subtle, but it is still exhalting oneself.

I found that with my christian friends.
There was them, the good sheep, and the people in college who drank, the bad goats.
There was them, the good sheep who waited until they got married, and the bad goats, who slept around.

They constantly saw themselves are morally superior, better than, etc.
And I think there is a danger in that, because it makes you deny the bad that is in you, and worse, deny the good that is in others.

[gnosticmary]

To say, "I've been forgiven because God has mercy upon me," isn't exhalting oneself in the least. That's humble.

Now, while it isn't "most" christians, there are people that openly exhalt themselves "I'm forgiven and YOU'RE not! I'm not evil like you! I'm going to heaven!" (I can suggest a website if you would like to visit the viper pit).
Is this person exhalting themselves? Are they suggesting they are better than?

However, there is a sublter way people do this - the garter snake.
They go to church, they go to bible study, and then they walk to the store and pass someone and think, 'I'm SO glad I'm not like them..."

It's more subtle, but it is still exhalting oneself.

I found that with my christian friends.
There was them, the good sheep, and the people in college who drank, the bad goats.
There was them, the good sheep who waited until they got married, and the bad goats, who slept around.

They constantly saw themselves are morally superior, better than, etc.
And I think there is a danger in that, because it makes you deny the bad that is in you, and worse, deny the good that is in others.

The error beanieboy and sparko, is that even if sins of the past were forgiven due to a moment of belief in Jesus, what about this moment and the next? What about one's belief right now? What about today's sins?

If one truly believed in Jesus, he would trust Him and do as He says.

Belief based on 'yeah i read that in the Bible and it sounds true to me!' is not belief, it is a thought, it is merely thinking. Jesus never said that one is saved because he thinks that something he heard or read is true, but because he believes in ME, trusts ME, and so does just as I command Him.

Salvation is not found simply because one cast the right vote!

Salvation is found through a belief that leads one to walk in the same Path that Jesus walked. It is not found in a belief that is signified by a nod of the head or a mark on a ballot.


mary

[Sparko]

The error beanieboy and sparko, is that even if sins of the past were forgiven due to a moment of belief in Jesus, what about this moment and the next? What about one's belief right now? What about today's sins?

If one truly believed in Jesus, he would trust Him and do as He says.

Belief based on 'yeah i read that in the Bible and it sounds true to me!' is not belief, it is a thought, it is merely thinking. Jesus never said that one is saved because he thinks that something he heard or read is true, but because he believes in ME, trusts ME, and so does just as I command Him.

Salvation is not found simply because one cast the right vote!

Salvation is found through a belief that leads one to walk in the same Path that Jesus walked. It is not found in a belief that is signified by a nod of the head or a mark on a ballot.


mary

I agree mary. Saving Faith is trusting and following Jesus. And you are not just forgiven for your past sins, you are forgiven for ALL of your sins, even the ones you haven't made yet. All of my sins were 'future sins' to Jesus when he died on the cross for me.

[gnosticmary]

I agree mary. Saving Faith is trusting and following Jesus. And you are not just forgiven for your past sins, you are forgiven for ALL of your sins, even the ones you haven't made yet. All of my sins were 'future sins' to Jesus when he died on the cross for me.


Although i do understand how and why Jesus forgives sins, I do not know what sins, if any, of yours he has forgiven. Such things are not for me to know.

I do know that belief is not automatic salvation, but provides us with the faith necessary to walk the Path of salvation. Our belief though can fail, we can fall from the Path. However, this is only temporary, a point in time and space. In Eternity, all of God's lost children are and will be redeemed.

If you are interested in advancing your own understanding, Sparko, below is an offering that explains sin and forgiveness.


Each soul, pristinely fashioned after its Creator, remains ever immutable no matter how apparently sinful the externalized ego consciousness as expressed through the instruments of body and mind. Sin only acts like a crust that encapsulates the soul and prevents its manifestation of oneness with Spirit. When that crust of sin is broken, the ever pure soul becomes the predominating consciousness as it re-expresses the realization of its identity with God.

When the soul again realizes itself as a son of God, a true child of the Immaculate Infinite, and that through dream delusion is only temporarily imagined itself to be a sinner, then the consciousness feels an engrossing faith in that reality. The conviction of being a sinner is imaginary and changeable; the latent conviction that the soul is a son of God is permanent and unchangeable, even though temporarily hidden in a mortal matrix of sin. When one has faith in the divinity of his soul and its all-powerful God-attuned nature, he finds quick freedom from the results of past sinful actions.

If a chamber is dark for a thousand years, that darkness cannot be driven away by beating it with a stick. But if a light is brought in, the aeonic blackness is dispelled at once. Similarly, when a soul is in the darkness of incarnations of ignorance and evil actions, if the light of wisdom and faith in the soul and God is introduced, then all that delusive obscurity vanishes instantly.

Thus the consummate way that human beings can escape reaping the results of their past wrong actions is to change their status from a human being to that of a divine child. The evil actions of a soul identified with the body (that is, as the ego) will have to suffer punishment according to the law of transgression. But if the soul, by prayer and service, becomes fully liberated from its identification with the body and beholds itself as a pure image of Spirit, it is no longer subject to punishment for any mistakes it made in its human state.

Consider the postulate that a powerful monarch of a country disguised himself, went into a tavern belonging to his estate, got drunk, quite forgetting his status, and started a vicious brawl with one of the patrons. The innkeepers took him to a judge, appointed to that post by the king. As the judge was about to sentence the monarch, he came to his senses, threw off his disguise, and exclaimed: “I am the king who appointed you as the judge, and I have the power to cast you into prison. How dare you presume to convict me?” Similarly, the ever perfect kingly soul during its identification with the body may commit an evil and may be convicted as guilty according to the judge of transgression; but when the soul identifies its consciousness with God, the Creator of the judge, that royal soul is no longer under the jurisdiction of such judgment regarding its past dereliction.

The more one establishes one’s identity with the Absolute and never deems himself a sinner, the more he will feel God’s mercy.

Love for God, surrender to God, will destroy ignorance in man. Pure love, divine love, removes the barriers between man and his Maker. The sinful woman who “loved much” found herself transformed by its sanctifying touch.

“I am impartial toward all beings,” the Lord declares in the Bhagavad Gita. “To Me none is hateful, none is dear. But those who give Me their heart’s love are in Me, as I am in them.”

God is love. Every soul, even when the outward consciousness is deluded or in a wicked state, is a holy receptacle filled with this divine love. No matter how deeply error-stricken man is identified with sensuous pleasures, when by prayer and service he consciously feels the love of God within himself, he begins to rise above his bad habits. Regardless of the intensity of his sins, when man turns his mind within and sincerely seeks and finally attains God’s bliss and love templed in the soul, he does not have to undergo the suffering linked to his sense attachment. This is the grace that was bestowed on the woman who loved much. With her own consciousness permeated with the love of God within herself, and with the help of Jesus Christ, her consciousness became free from her habit of sin, of being identified with the compulsive pleasures of the flesh.

Jesus forgave her as a potential divine child made in the image of God. In spite of her many sins, she realized from the teachings of Jesus that the power of God was within herself, and that the power of Jesus could awaken within her the God-consciousness which would release her from the consequences of those past transgressions, this is what is meant by the forgiving of sins.

When a criminal breaks a city ordinance, he is condemned according to the provisions of that law. But the governor of the state is empowered in extenuating circumstances to pardon the offender. Likewise, God, being all-powerful, and also His saints who are tuned with Him and who exercise their divine will force, can stop the fruition of evil debt in any individual. Only God and realized sons of God can completely or partially forgive an individual’s sins against his soul, provided that person is devotedly sincere in seeking forgiveness, not through mere supplication, but through divine love.

Shallow prayer and selfish fear of consequences will not cause God arbitrarily to contradict the just and sanctioned working of His karmic law. This would in effect permit man to continue in error without consequences. Nor can God be moved by fitful emotions of praise or bartered deals of good behavior for past misdeeds. Man’s recourse to the intercession of the grace and forgiveness of God, saving him from his self-created fate at the merciless bar of law, is that God is both law and love. The devotee who seeks redemption by attuning his actions to the righteous guidance of divine law and also implores with pure devotion and faith the unconditional love of God, will be transformed in God’s light of forgiveness. There is no doubt about this divine assurance: Any sin, and its consequence, can be forgiven the repentant devotee who loves God deeply enough, and thereby puts his life in tune with the all-compassionate Lord.

Love is greater than law; it is the unifying thread that attaches the devotee’s heart to the unconditional heart of God. Law is based upon impersonal justice weighed according to the principle of cause and effect; but love claims God as our own forgiving Father-Mother whose all-embracing mercy abides whether or not the full measure of the law has been met.

The sinful woman forgiven by Jesus loved much because despite the magnitude of her sins, in the presence of divine love she felt no condemnation but rather faith in its redeeming power. And like the man in the parable who was forgiven his greater debt relative to the debtor forgiven little, her love was magnified by the awesome forgiveness she received through the medium of her devotion and faith and the blessing of the Christ in Jesus.

The removal by God’s grace of a small debt may be less noticed and responded to by a complacent righteous man secure in his love for God, whereas the effect of overwhelming love and gratitude is roused in a man whose devotion and faith has merited a divine reprieve from some dire consequence of his own sinful making.

Thus one who loves much is forgiven much; and one who is forgiven much, loves even more.



mary

Mary, When you use a quote, you need to say where you got it from. Also, please do not use more than 2 paragraphs in a quote. You can provide a link to the rest of the quote so others can read it.