Isolationism & WWII

[Rubia Warren]

This is a serious question as I am learning more things about WWII . Why was an isolationist policy before we got involved in WWII such a bad thing?

[Ryokan]

This is a serious question as I am learning more things about WWII . Why was an isolationist policy before we got involved in WWII such a bad thing?
Yes. It prevented us from using the league of nations, and plain old big stick diplomacy from stopping Germany from annexing Austria or the Czech republic, which gave them the room they needed, and time, to conquer western europe. Even if it lead to war, in 1936, 37, or 38, Germany was most weaker. Even if we had gotten involved in 1939, France wouldn't have fallen, and Eastern Europe wouldn't have gone commie, probably. We could have squeazed Japan, and either only fought a 1 front war with them, or stopped their invasion of China all together. There still would have been wars and badness, but less war, less badness, and probably no cold war, no Mao, no communist china, probably no communist eastern europe. The landscape of the 20th century would have been altered, a few things for the worse, but mostly for the better, I think.

[Tladatsi]

Because Fascism advanced at first by baby steps. Each baby step went un-opposed. As sthe Fascists succeeded more and more (re-militarizing the Saar, rebuilding the German army, the Spainish Civil War, the Sudenland, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc.) they got bolder and bolder. Had there been an earlier response by the western powers, the Fascists might have been stopped before they destoryed most of the world and kill tens of millions of people.

The problem was there was wide-spread popular disgust with war in general following WWI which was horrific blood bath but the source of huge profits for well connected industrialists. Political conservatives were able to exploit this sentiment to prevent the US armed forces from being prepared for war. For a quick sense of this, consider that the US entered WWII in Dec. 1941, but did not engage in any combat with the Germans until November 1942 - and got clobbered at Kasserine Pass. Political conservatives so hobbled the US army it over a year to get it combat ready. This includes people like Prescot Bush, W's grandfather, whose bank, United Trust, was cited by the US government in 1942 for violations of the "Trading with Enemy Act".

Had the western powers taken a more assertive position, Fascism might have been nipped in the bud.


This is a serious question as I am learning more things about WWII . Why was an isolationist policy before we got involved in WWII such a bad thing?

[Dienekes]

Personally I don't think it would have been nipped, as so put. America during WWII was not the all powerful fighter most people tend to believe it was. If America had gotten invloved earlier the war would have been shorter no doubt but Mussolini and Hitler got too powerful too fast for complete prevention. Also if the Americans would have stepped in and stopped Hitler lets say then the Germans who were still angry at the lose of WWI and that they were treated completely unfairly after the finish of ther war the people themselves most likely would rise up under some other guy like Hitler (though most likely not as evil or cruel). I also have to kind of respect what Hitlers helpers were able to accomplish, Germany after WWI had no army at all. It was disbanded and if it came together again everyone was supposed to converge and destroy it. However under Hitler the army grew out of nowhere, powerful tanks and guns and weapons were made from pure scratch (personally I believe somebody somewhere out of germany had to have been giving Hitler plans for tanks and the like because there is no way that Germany became that mobilized in that short of time).

[Rubia Warren]

:popcorn:

[Ryokan]

Personally I don't think it would have been nipped, as so put. America during WWII was not the all powerful fighter most people tend to believe it was. If America had gotten invloved earlier the war would have been shorter no doubt but Mussolini and Hitler got too powerful too fast for complete prevention. Also if the Americans would have stepped in and stopped Hitler lets say then the Germans who were still angry at the lose of WWI and that they were treated completely unfairly after the finish of ther war the people themselves most likely would rise up under some other guy like Hitler (though most likely not as evil or cruel). Maybe, maybe not. its hard to say. The final solution, devastation of Europe, the Cold War, those all would not have happened. I also have to kind of respect what Hitlers helpers were able to accomplish, Germany after WWI had no army at all. It was disbanded and if it came together again everyone was supposed to converge and destroy it. However under Hitler the army grew out of nowhere, powerful tanks and guns and weapons were made from pure scratch (personally I believe somebody somewhere out of germany had to have been giving Hitler plans for tanks and the like because there is no way that Germany became that mobilized in that short of time).Huh? Germany was planning for a return to military dominance in 1919. No Hitler, and the Germany still would have built up.

[Tladatsi]

Dienekes,

Your are very much mistaken on a very key point. The German army did not spring from "scratch" as you suppose. I came from assistance from wealthy industrialists who helped Hitler. Ford, GM, and Chrysler all invested in Germany in the 1930's. The German airforce flew Opel airplanes - a wholely owned subsidiary of GM. Opel made the first rocket powered airplane with the Messerschmit Co, - the ME 163. I could go on but you get the idea.

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there."

- William E. Dodd, US German Ambassador 1937


You will note that I was careful not to say America at the end but the "western powers". UK and France were prepared to conciliate Hitler, so long as he moved east. In the US conciliation took the form of isolationism. Isolationism was the particularly american version of conciliation. I would note that while Ford and GM were uninterested in militarizing the US operations before 12/7/41 - they had not such reluctance with the German subsidiaries.

When Hitler re-militarized the Saar, if Britain and France and the US had put up a united front, Hitler would have backed down. The same with the invasion of Austria and Czechoslovakia. With each un-contested conquest, the fascists grew bolder and increased preparations for even grander conquest.:eek:



Personally I don't think it would have been nipped, as so put. America during WWII was not the all powerful fighter most people tend to believe it was. If America had gotten invloved earlier the war would have been shorter no doubt but Mussolini and Hitler got too powerful too fast for complete prevention. Also if the Americans would have stepped in and stopped Hitler lets say then the Germans who were still angry at the lose of WWI and that they were treated completely unfairly after the finish of ther war the people themselves most likely would rise up under some other guy like Hitler (though most likely not as evil or cruel). I also have to kind of respect what Hitlers helpers were able to accomplish, Germany after WWI had no army at all. It was disbanded and if it came together again everyone was supposed to converge and destroy it. However under Hitler the army grew out of nowhere, powerful tanks and guns and weapons were made from pure scratch (personally I believe somebody somewhere out of germany had to have been giving Hitler plans for tanks and the like because there is no way that Germany became that mobilized in that short of time).

[Ryokan]

Dienekes,

Your are very much mistaken on a very key point. The German army did not spring from "scratch" as you suppose. I came from assistance from wealthy industrialists who helped Hitler. Ford, GM, and Chrysler all invested in Germany in the 1930's. The German airforce flew Opel airplanes - a wholely owned subsidiary of GM. Opel made the first rocket powered airplane with the Messerschmit Co, - the ME 163. I could go on but you get the idea.

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there."

- William E. Dodd, US German Ambassador 1937


You will note that I was careful not to say America at the end but the "western powers". UK and France were prepared to conciliate Hitler, so long as he moved east. In the US conciliation took the form of isolationism. Isolationism was the particularly american version of conciliation. I would note that while Ford and GM were uninterested in militarizing the US operations before 12/7/41 - they had not such reluctance with the German subsidiaries.

When Hitler re-militarized the Saar, if Britain and France and the US had put up a united front, Hitler would have backed down. The same with the invasion of Austria and Czechoslovakia. With each un-contested conquest, the fascists grew bolder and increased preparations for even grander conquest.:eek:
That's not fair, though. It wasn't primarilly American manufacturers that armed Germany. Germany did. We just sat around and waited.

[Tladatsi]

What I said was German militarization did not happen all by it self. The Nazi's had help. It was not just investment of manufacturing capability it also loans and technical expertise. None other than Henry Ford received a medal from Hilter in July 1938, the "Grand Cross of the Supreme Order of the German Eagle" for his years of support. As previously mentioned George W. Bush's grandfather and great-grand father were also Hitlers little helpers. No not "primarily", Germany had its own industrialists but not insignificant either.

That's not fair, though. It wasn't primarilly American manufacturers that armed Germany. Germany did. We just sat around and waited.

[Dienekes]

of course it didn't appear all by itself that would be impossible. My point (that I apparently missed completely) was that Germany had virtually nothing before Hitler. Yes they had been helped by outsiders and they were given a patrolling airforce, however the backbone of the german military its army was sopposed to be disbanded (wither it actually completely disbanded or not is debatable however in Rommels autobiography he talks about the disbanding after WWI.

[Tladatsi]

The German military did not spring up overnight, it took Hilter years to build it up. Had various western industrialists not aided him and the Western powers not placated him, it would have taken a great many more years and perhaps never. He would have existed like his good pal Franco of Spain. A terrible tyrant confined to his own little country.

of course it didn't appear all by itself that would be impossible. My point (that I apparently missed completely) was that Germany had virtually nothing before Hitler. Yes they had been helped by outsiders and they were given a patrolling airforce, however the backbone of the german military its army was sopposed to be disbanded (wither it actually completely disbanded or not is debatable however in Rommels autobiography he talks about the disbanding after WWI.

[Ryokan]

The German military did not spring up overnight, it took Hilter years to build it up. Had various western industrialists not aided him and the Western powers not placated him, it would have taken a great many more years and perhaps never. He would have existed like his good pal Franco of Spain. A terrible tyrant confined to his own little country.
No, not really. The most important materials he got from us could have come from Japan, or Germany itself, or France, perhaps slightly less cheaply. And the build up started before Hitler showed up. He simply excellerated it.

[Tladatsi]

No you are quite incorrect, before Hitler, the German military was small and weak as a result of the Treaty of Versaille, which place strick limits on the German military. Germany did have a sizable steel (Krupp) and munitions industires. However, it had no automotive or aerospace industry, the basis of modern mechanised warfare. Just as critical, Germany (and Japan) have no oil fields or refineries. How can build tanks without engines and diesel fuel? Without tanks, trucks, aeroplanes, and fuel, the life-blood of the "blitzkreig", German could not have conquored Lichtenstein, much less all of Europe.

No, not really. The most important materials he got from us could have come from Japan, or Germany itself, or France, perhaps slightly less cheaply. And the build up started before Hitler showed up. He simply excellerated it.

[Mr. Christopher]

This is a serious question as I am learning more things about WWII . Why was an isolationist policy before we got involved in WWII such a bad thing?


The League of Nations is a waste of time. Like the United Nations. Germany wouldn't have listened to the LoN or the UN. Just like Iran, Iraq, etc. Hezbollah... as much as they want UN interference, they use UN camps to shoot rockets and such at Isreal. Anyway, to your question. Isolationism is a bad thing, but to maintain neutrality, it was a must. Don't trade with anyone, don't talk to anyone, and no one will bother you. At least you think so anyways. But that was it... no trading to anyone involved in the war, no talking to anyone. But... BUT there were American GI's that left America to fight for the RAF, but those were few and far between.

So, that's it in a small nutshell...