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Tux314
January 19th 2006, 04:57 PM
Follow the argument:

1.) Death is the last enemy that Christ will defeat:

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

2.) The Resurrection of the dead will occur before the event identified as the "Rapture", when people will be taken to Heaven without death.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

3.) The Resurrection of the dead is the victory over death.

But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

4.) The victory over death will take place before the "Rapture." (follows logically from 2, 3)

5.) Satan is an enemy of God. (I don't really have to cite a verse for this one, do I?)

6.) The defeat of Satan must precede the "Rapture" (from 1, 4, 5).

7.) Satan will not be defeated until after the Millenium.

And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(This may explain 1 Corinthians 15:25 quite well.)

8.) Therefore, the Millenium must precede the "Rapture" (from 6, 7).

9.) The "Tribulation" precedes the Millenium.

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

10.) Therefore, the "Tribulation" must precede the "Rapture," separated by the Millenium at least (from 8, 9).

I put "Tribulation" and "Rapture" in quotes because the common understanding of these terms is different from my partial preterist perspective, but the argument works even if futurism is assumed. In fact, the argument holds up all the more strongly if one demands literal interpretations of the Bible.

The idea of the final Resurrection being after the Millenium fits the partial preterist view quite well, though.

Act9_12Out
January 27th 2006, 06:00 PM
Follow the argument:

1.) Death is the last enemy that Christ will defeat:

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

2.) The Resurrection of the dead will occur before the event identified as the "Rapture", when people will be taken to Heaven without death.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

3.) The Resurrection of the dead is the victory over death.

But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

4.) The victory over death will take place before the "Rapture." (follows logically from 2, 3)

5.) Satan is an enemy of God. (I don't really have to cite a verse for this one, do I?)

6.) The defeat of Satan must precede the "Rapture" (from 1, 4, 5).

7.) Satan will not be defeated until after the Millenium.

And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(This may explain 1 Corinthians 15:25 quite well.)

8.) Therefore, the Millenium must precede the "Rapture" (from 6, 7).

9.) The "Tribulation" precedes the Millenium.

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

10.) Therefore, the "Tribulation" must precede the "Rapture," separated by the Millenium at least (from 8, 9).

I put "Tribulation" and "Rapture" in quotes because the common understanding of these terms is different from my partial preterist perspective, but the argument works even if futurism is assumed. In fact, the argument holds up all the more strongly if one demands literal interpretations of the Bible.

The idea of the final Resurrection being after the Millenium fits the partial preterist view quite well, though.

It seems that you are arguing that satan is defeated before the resurrection of the dead, therefore this somehow negates a "pre-trib" rapture. I am pre-trib, and I believe in a rapture of the body of Christ which precedes the future 7 year tribulation. I won't argue this point yet, as I would like to address your own words and apparent contradiction.

You quoted Revelation 20:4. Revelation 20:4 shows a group of people who were "beheaded for Christ" who "live and reign with Him for the 1,000 years." This group is definitely resurrected "before" satan's defeat. Your argument fails with this one point. You have a group who are resurrected and reign with Christ in the heavenlies during the 1,000 years. This happens before satan's demise... This negates Point #8. Secondly, I would ask, under what circumstances were these people beheaded? When did this happen? Just mixing the pot a bit...

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

slaveofone
February 8th 2006, 04:27 AM
Personally, I would be scared [bleep]less to construct a theology on one or two isolated sayings in Paul (whose writings are so steeped in a complex web of Judaic thought that one cannot hope to understand Paul without understanding the Jewish world-view of the first-century that informs his beliefs) and a couple references in one of the most subversive forms of literature ever created--Apocalyptic, which uses fantastical imagery drawn from prophetic symbolism, parable, metaphor, and numerology in order to invest this-worldly historical events with their theological significance.

The entire Old Testament points toward, the New Testmanet affirms, and Jewish belief in the centuries before and after Christ testifies outside of these in the Psuedepigrapha, that suffering comes before restoration and that, indeed, it is part of the process itself. The righteous suffer to bring salvation. The sacrifices commanded by Torah are an image of the atoning value of suffering. Tribulation and suffering precedes deliverance and salvation. Yeshua himself demonstrated this and said if we follow him (and are not greater than he is), we cannot escape "drinking his cup"--suffering, tribulation, and wrath on behalf of the unrighteous so that a multitude of sins are turned away and the kingdom manifest among the ungodly.