The "God is Spirit" argument

[ApologiaPhoenix]

When I was on PALtalk often, one main argument I heard against the deity of Christ is "God is Spirit." This is entirely fallacious since no Trinitarian who knows what they're talking about says that the body of Christ is God. However, let us consider something else.

In Hebrews 1:14, angels are referred to as ministering spirits. In fact, we have no reason to believe angels are essentially material. However, while the JWs say Jesus cannot be God because of John 4:24, fallaciously again, they can at the same time say that Michael is Jesus even though Michael would be defined as a spirit also.

Any thoughts from the JWs on here?

[Sparko]

good point.

:popcorn:

[suffer for joy]

Technically isnt every human just a spirit that has a body? :eh:

[NonTrinitarian]

When I was on PALtalk often, one main argument I heard against the deity of Christ is "God is Spirit." This is entirely fallacious since no Trinitarian who knows what they're talking about says that the body of Christ is God. However, let us consider something else.

In Hebrews 1:14, angels are referred to as ministering spirits. In fact, we have no reason to believe angels are essentially material. However, while the JWs say Jesus cannot be God because of John 4:24, fallaciously again, they can at the same time say that Michael is Jesus even though Michael would be defined as a spirit also.

Any thoughts from the JWs on here?

Quote one JW publication that says Jesus cannot be God because God is a spirit and Jesus is not.

[Topherlee]

When I was on PALtalk often, one main argument I heard against the deity of Christ is "God is Spirit." This is entirely fallacious since no Trinitarian who knows what they're talking about says that the body of Christ is God. However, let us consider something else.

In Hebrews 1:14, angels are referred to as ministering spirits. In fact, we have no reason to believe angels are essentially material. However, while the JWs say Jesus cannot be God because of John 4:24, fallaciously again, they can at the same time say that Michael is Jesus even though Michael would be defined as a spirit also.

Any thoughts from the JWs on here?

John 1:14 says that God's word was made flesh. In light of the JW's view. Jesus was no longer a spirit, but flesh - fully a man. Not God and man. Jesus only had whatever authority that Jehovah God has allowed him to have.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

He will take rule of the throne of his father David and shall rule the house of Jacob as noted, as our King, and will return all authority back to Jehovah God. This is where practical wisdom should jump in. If Jesus is indeed God, how is it that authority will be given to him? Is not God Almighty.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God his Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[Krusader]

John 1:14 says that God's word was made flesh. In light of the JW's view. Jesus was no longer a spirit, but flesh - fully a man. Not God and man. Jesus only had whatever authority that Jehovah God has allowed him to have.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

He will take rule of the throne of his father David and shall rule the house of Jacob as noted, as our King, and will return all authority back to Jehovah God. This is where practical wisdom should jump in. If Jesus is indeed God, how is it that authority will be given to him? Is not God Almighty.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God his Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Because within the Godhead there is an order or voluntary subordination of the Son to the Father. Also, study the doctrine of hypostatic union.

[Topherlee]

Because within the Godhead there is an order or voluntary subordination of the Son to the Father. Also, study the doctrine of hypostatic union.

In Christianity, the Godhead is a term denoting deity or divinity. It is a unity comprised of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Though often used interchangeably with the concept of Trinity, the word Godhead is itself a word that simply means "godhood" and, thus, it is erroneous to use it as synonymous with the English word "trinity." In those English translations of the Bible that use "Godhead," such as the King James Bible, there are only three passages of scripture where it is used - Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; and Colossians 2:9 - and each time it is used, it is translated from a different Greek word: theios (godlike, divinity), theiotes (divinity, divine nature), and theotes (deity, divinity), respectively.

There are no three fully gods that make up one. There is only one. The term godhead relates to that One True God.

[Sparko]

drain bamaged.

[Krusader]

In Christianity, the Godhead is a term denoting deity or divinity. It is a unity comprised of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Though often used interchangeably with the concept of Trinity, the word Godhead is itself a word that simply means "godhood" and, thus, it is erroneous to use it as synonymous with the English word "trinity." In those English translations of the Bible that use "Godhead," such as the King James Bible, there are only three passages of scripture where it is used - Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; and Colossians 2:9 - and each time it is used, it is translated from a different Greek word: theios (godlike, divinity), theiotes (divinity, divine nature), and theotes (deity, divinity), respectively.

There are no three fully gods that make up one. There is only one. The term godhead relates to that One True God.

You have been brainwashed by the Towerites - Christians do not believe in three "gods," the believe in One True God who is tri-personal in nature.

[Topherlee]

You have been brainwashed by the Towerites - Christians do not believe in three "gods," the believe in One True God who is tri-personal in nature.

Again you deny the real definition of the Godhead.

I am not the brainwashed my brother. The doctrine of the Trinity states that each is fully God, individually, distinct from one another. God is not tri personal, He is not an essence, He is the Almighty Jehovah God. God is a Spirit.

Trinitarians say that the Trinity teaches monotheism. This theory alone should throw up a red flag; under review. The Trinity does not teach monotheism, it teaches tri-unity. You defy your own terminology.

Monotheism is the belief in one God without a hint of essence or combined personalities.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

The words of Jesus himself says that the "Father is greater that the Son", "why do you call me good, there is only one who is good", "he that is sent is not greater than the one who sent him", "what I teach is not mine but of the One who sent me". Yet, you twist his words to prove your theory.

Is Jesus the High Priest? Yes.
Is Jesus a servant to God? Yes.
Is Jesus a true and faithful witness? Yes.
To whom? 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Krusader]

Again you deny the real definition of the Godhead.

I am not the brainwashed my brother. The doctrine of the Trinity states that each is fully God, individually, distinct from one another. God is not tri personal, He is not an essence, He is the Almighty Jehovah God. God is a Spirit.

Trinitarians say that the Trinity teaches monotheism. This theory alone should throw up a red flag; under review. The Trinity does not teach monotheism, it teaches tri-unity. You defy your own terminology.

Monotheism is the belief in one God without a hint of essence or combined personalities.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

The words of Jesus himself says that the "Father is greater that the Son", "why do you call me good, there is only one who is good", "he that is sent is not greater than the one who sent him", "what I teach is not mine but of the One who sent me". Yet, you twist his words to prove your theory.

Is Jesus the High Priest? Yes.
Is Jesus a servant to God? Yes.
Is Jesus a true and faithful witness? Yes.
To whom? 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Oh, really? Then why is the plural "elohim" used consistently in Genesis. "Let US make man in OUR own image." I don't think we're speaking of the "royal" we here. Elohim is the plural of the Hebrew word for "God."

How can you say with a straight face that the Bible contains no hint of "combined personalities," when it's right there on the very first page!

The Tower has lied to you, and now you take those lies and attempt to pass them off as truth to us. Well, anybody that has studied Scripture and the formation of the creedal statements of the Church knows that the core doctrine of Christianity is monotheism. We worship a God who is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. You cannot understand Him fully, because His ways are not your ways.

Jehovah of the Watchtower is not God - he is a limited deity in all ways, even needing angels to communicate with creation. Jehovah of the Watchtower will never save a single soul - because he had to send an angel (Michael) to save men, because Jehovah of the Watchtower was unable to go to the cross for you.

And, quoting the Jewish shema will do you no good whatsoever. Aren't you aware that the word for one, "echad" is a plural one? Such as one bunch of grapes or one pair of socks. The shema supports the Trinity!

And by the way, I'm not your brother. If I was a Towerite, I'd be your "sister." I thank the Lord that I am not!

Here is some information you need to study:

http://www.godandscience.org/images/spacer.gif (http://www.godandscience.org/)
The Triunity (Trinity) of God in The Old Testament
by Rich Deem (http://www.godandscience.org/contact.html)

Jews say that the Shema (pronounced Shmah), "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord"1 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html#01) contradicts the Christian doctrine that Jesus is God. In addition, there are a number of other verses that proclaim that God is one (see God is One (http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/onegod.html)). However, the triunity of God is taught throughout the Old Testament, including the Shema! How can a statement of oneness imply plurality? The word translated "one" from the Hebrew is echad, which demonstrates compound unity of oneness. Specific examples of how echad demonstrates compound unity are found below:

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one [echad] flesh. (Genesis 2:24)
Now the whole earth used the same [echad] language and the same [echad] words. (Genesis 11:1)
And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one [echad] people, and they all have the same [echad] language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. (Genesis 11:6)
Then we will give you our daughters and take your daughters for ourselves. We'll settle among you and become one [echad] people with you. (Genesis 34:16)
Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one [echad] voice, and said, "All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!" (Exodus 24:3)
Then they came to the valley of Eshcol and from there cut down a branch with a single [echad] cluster of grapes; and they carried it on a pole between two men, with some of the pomegranates and the figs. (Numbers 13:23)
The whole [echad] assembly numbered 42,360, (Ezra 2:64)
They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness [echad] of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. (Jeremiah 32:38-39)
These are a few of the many examples of how echad is used to show the unity of oneness. How would the Hebrew be different if God had wanted to express absolute oneness? There is another Hebrew word, yachid, that is used to express the idea of absolute oneness. Examples of it are shown below:

And He said, "Take now your son, your only [yachid] son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." (Genesis 22:2)
And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only [yachid] son, from Me." (Genesis 22:12)
and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only [yachid] son, (Genesis 22:16)
When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing. Now she was his one and only [yachid] child; besides her he had neither son nor daughter. (Judges 11:34)
Deliver my soul from the sword, My only [yachid] life from the power of the dog. (Psalms 22:20)
Turn to me and be gracious to me, For I am lonely [yachid] and afflicted. (Psalms 25:16)
Lord, how long wilt Thou look on? Rescue my soul from their ravages, My only [yachid] life from the lions. (Psalms 35:17)
God makes a home for the lonely [yachid]; He leads out the prisoners into prosperity, only the rebellious dwell in a parched land. (Psalms 68:6)
When I was a son to my father, Tender and the only [yachid] son in the sight of my mother, (Proverbs 4:3)
O daughter of my people, put on sackcloth And roll in ashes; Mourn as for an only [yachid] son, A lamentation most bitter. For suddenly the destroyer Will come upon us. (Jeremiah 6:26)
"Then I shall turn your festivals into mourning And all your songs into lamentation; And I will bring sackcloth on everyone's loins And baldness on every head. And I will make it like a time of mourning for an only [yachid] son, And the end of it will be like a bitter day. (Amos 8:10)
"And I [YHVH]2 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html#02) will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only [yachid] son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born. (Zechariah 12:10)
Of course, the last verse is a famous messianic prophecy proclaiming how the Messiah would be killed (see Jesus Christ - Messiah of the Rabbinical Writers (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/messiah.html#pierced)). If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)!

The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. The plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. Not only is the word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as "Us":

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26)
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22)
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:7)
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" (Isaiah 6:8)
An example of how the Hebrew word Elohim is used in the plural is that it is translated "gods" (referring to idols) 235 times in the Old Testament. It is exactly the same word that is translated "God," referring to the Almighty. An example is given below:



"I am the LORD your God [Elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)

[Topherlee]

Crusader
Oh, really? Then why is the plural "elohim" used consistently in Genesis. "Let US make man in OUR own image." I don't think we're speaking of the "royal" we here. Elohim is the plural of the Hebrew word for "God."

How can you say with a straight face that the Bible contains no hint of "combined personalities," when it's right there on the very first page!

Elohim speaks nothing of the Godhead. Elohim is plural because it is God speaking to his firstborn of all creation (Rev 3:15, Col 1:15). Not that God is speaking to God. Notice from Genesis 1:1-25 . It says that God created all things and in pretty much what order. Verse 26 is the only verse that refers to "us". But verse 27 is quick to note that God, not "us", created man in his image.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


The Tower has lied to you, and now you take those lies and attempt to pass them off as truth to us. Well, anybody that has studied Scripture and the formation of the creedal statements of the Church knows that the core doctrine of Christianity is monotheism. We worship a God who is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. You cannot understand Him fully, because His ways are not your ways.

First, how do you say that I listen to the Tower? Do you think I am a JW? I lesson to reason according to scripture. And again, the Trintiy does not preach monotheism, it preaches Tri-Unity. You have become blind to the very concept of this doctrine.


Jehovah of the Watchtower is not God - he is a limited deity in all ways, even needing angels to communicate with creation. Jehovah of the Watchtower will never save a single soul - because he had to send an angel (Michael) to save men, because Jehovah of the Watchtower was unable to go to the cross for you.

Jehovah is God Almighty and you say that he is a limited deity;
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Jeremiah 16:21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is JEHOVAH.

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


And, quoting the Jewish shema will do you no good whatsoever. Aren't you aware that the word for one, "echad" is a plural one? Such as one bunch of grapes or one pair of socks. The shema supports the Trinity!

And by the way, I'm not your brother. If I was a Towerite, I'd be your "sister." I thank the Lord that I am not!

And you will never be a brother to Jesus and a son to our God. The shma does not support the Trinity. That is wishful thinking on your part.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Here is some information you need to study:

http://www.godandscience.org/images/spacer.gif (http://www.godandscience.org/)
The Triunity (Trinity) of God in The Old Testament
by Rich Deem (http://www.godandscience.org/contact.html)

Jews say that the Shema (pronounced Shmah), "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord"1 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html#01) contradicts the Christian doctrine that Jesus is God. In addition, there are a number of other verses that proclaim that God is one (see God is One (http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/onegod.html)). However, the triunity of God is taught throughout the Old Testament, including the Shema! How can a statement of oneness imply plurality? The word translated "one" from the Hebrew is echad, which demonstrates compound unity of oneness. Specific examples of how echad demonstrates compound unity are found below:

I do not need to study mans word, ,I look, I listen, but my ultimate decision is based on scripture.

[list]
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one [echad] flesh. (Genesis 2:24)
Now the whole earth used the same [echad] language and the same [echad] words. (Genesis 11:1)
And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one [echad] people, and they all have the same [echad] language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. (Genesis 11:6)
Then we will give you our daughters and take your daughters for ourselves. We'll settle among you and become one [echad] people with you.

Genesis 2:24 is speaking of the union of marriage. Not that the wife will become the man.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Does this mean that we will to become God? Because as the Father and the Son are one, this verse clearly says that we will be one in them. Again, the verse speaks of a union. Not that we will become God.



"I am the LORD your God [Elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)

Who is speaking? The Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit? And for your information, the word Elohim can be used as singular word. It is not always plural. I am pretty sure it is very hard for you to see clearly with your fist clinched in front of your face.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Some thoughts now on all of this.

First off, NonTrinitarian asked me to show one JW publication with my claim. I don't have to. I never claimed JW publications taught this. I claimed that this is what I saw when I was on PALtalk. I simply wanted to discuss JW ideas with this. If you think this argument is invalid, then bravo. Now go tell your brethren.

Now moving on to Topher who is just loaded with misinformation. Let's start.


The doctrine of the Trinity states that each is fully God, individually, distinct from one another. God is not tri personal, He is not an essence, He is the Almighty Jehovah God. God is a Spirit.

Bzzzz. Right from the start. Sorry, but we teach that the persons are distinct but not individually distinct. Individually distinct would imply that each person has their own separate existence when the doctrine of the Trinity says that they exist in a unity. Jesus lives because the Father lives and the Father has always been the Father because the Son has always been the Son. If the Son has not always existed as the Son, then the Father has not always existed as the Father.

Your arguments about Jesus no longer being spirit at the incarnation raises some questions to me about your view of angels. Does this mean that when an angel makes a bodily appearance, then the angel ceases to be a spirit? However, Hebrews 1:13-14 makes it clear that angels are ministering spirits sent to those who will inherit salvation. Is there any indication that they ever cease to be spirits?

Your belief that our idea of tri-unity should raise flags against monotheism is exactly the opposite. It strongly indicates monotheism. After all, what is a unity but one thing? We simply believe in three persons in the one God and to show monotheism, all we have to show is one God. It doesn't matter if there are three persons or three million. We believe three because Scripture reveals three. What we have are two different terms. X = Persons and Y = God. What you have to show to show that we are not monotheists is that we believe in more than one Y. The number of X is irrelevant.

Your use of Genesis 2:24 and John 17:21 is also highly errant. You speak as if we say that the wife will become the man. In fact, we say that the wife remains fully the wife and the man fully the man. They become one in relationship though of sexual intimacy. It is not good for man who is in the image of God to be alone. (Interesting that the Watchtower has a lonely god isn't it?)

However, when we read the Scriptures, we see a God who is relational in his very nature and creates man to be a relational being. Man binds together from the beginning and forms marriages, families, and communities. We see man as relational because he is made in the image of God who is relational in himself.

Now with John 17:21, in what way are the Father and Son one? I would say in essence, but what is this essence? Could it be the essence of love as 1 John 4:8 shows us that God is love? Love is by nature relational. True, a man can love himself but if he truly loves himself, that love will extend, nay, MUST extend beyond himself.

What unity are we to have? We are to have the unity of love, rooted of course in the truth. Our love here is supposed to be a mirror of the love that exists in the Trinity itself where each person is loved for who they are. The love is selfless and seeks the best of each person.

Topher. You really need to learn what the Trinity teaches before you argue against it instead of relying on the supposed points you've heard being made. I could point you to a number of other problems if need be with the concept of monadic monotheism. The church saw several in the middle ages with their debates against another Monadic religion, the religion of Islam.

[36grit]

We will walk in the flesh
We will walk in the spirit
We will walk according to the will of God
This he does and this we will do
all of us whom he will choose
you debate because you do not understand
you do not understand because you do not beleive
you try but you cannot see
because you are are far from me
come close and tremble
fear of God is the beginning of wisdom
and if you feared him you would know
all who ask are told
I guess only those who fear
accept the truth God whispers in their ears
the rest refuse to hear
because he does not say
what you expect or want him to say
and so he goes away
because you do not want him to stay
The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand
it's time to take a stand
cast the devils out of your head
for this his blood was shed
cast your devils into the fire
along with all your worldly desires
how can a new man be born
unless the old one dies
who is the counsel of your head
take a look inside
hold fast to the laws of God
for in this we are esablished
the first resurrection is now
may your kingdom florish
come out of the world and down to earth
pain the labor of birth
for we will all reap the seeds we have sown
look around at the ones you've grown
lament repent and cry
for these sins we all must die
pray for your enemies
let'm know that you love them
try to teach them not to sin
and if they refuse do not worry
in time all our lives will end
come the judgement day
we will crawl up out of the grave
and God will say what he will say
some will be given ever lasting life
and some will be cast away
and if they ever begin throwing stones
know that you are not alone
for this is what they did
to the prophets