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Jayhawker Soule
January 30th 2006, 02:52 PM
I thought you might find the following to be of some interest ...

The verse in question is Shemot (Exodus) 12:11, so let's see what it says:JPSAnd thus shall ye eat it: with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste--it is HaShem'S passover.Stone EditionSo shall you eat it: your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand: you shall eat it in haste - it is a pesach-offering to Hashem.Etz HayimThis is how you shall eat it: your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand: you shall eat it hurriedly: it is a passover offering to the Lord.FriedmanAnd you shall eat it like this: your hips clothed, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste. It is YHWH's Passover. SeptuagintAnd thus shall ye eat it: your loins girded, and your sandals on your feet, and your staves in your hands, and ye shall eat it in haste. It is a passover to the Lord.
NET BibleAnd this is how you are to eat it—dressed to travel, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. You are to eat it in haste. It is the Passover of the Lord.So? Well, does anyone find the phrase "It is YHWH's/HaShem'S Passover" odd or awkward? It turns out that the key term has been the subject of enquiry for some time. For example, in reference to the forms found in verse 11 and, later, verse 13:
NET Bible
[re 12:11] The meaning of js^P# (pesah) is debated. (1) Some have tried to connect it to the Hebrew verb with the same radicals that means “to halt, leap, limp, stumble.” See 1 Kgs 18:21 where the word describes the priests of Baal cavorting around the altar; also the crippled child in 2 Sam 4:4. (2) Others connect it to the Akkadian passahu, which means “to appease, make soft, placate”; or (3) an Egyptian word to commemorate the harvest (see Segal, The Passover, 95-100). The verb occurs in Isa 31:5 with the connotation of “to protect”; Childs suggests that this was already influenced by the exodus tradition (B. S. Childs, Exodus, 183, n. 11). Whatever links there may or may not have been that show an etymology, in this passage it is describing Yahweh’s passing over or through.
[re 12:13] The meaning of the verb is supplied in part from the near context of seeing the sign and omitting to destroy, as well as the verb at the start of verse 12 “pass through, by, over.” Isa 31:5 says, “As birds flying, so will Yahweh protect Jerusalem: he will protect and deliver, he will pass over and rescue.” The word does not occur enough times to enable one to develop a clear meaning. It is probably not the same word as “to limp” found in 1 Kgs 18:21, 26, unless there is a highly developed category of meaning there.

Etz Hayim
[re 12:11] The Hebrew noun "pesah" has given rise to the English adjective "paschal," used to designate the Passover lamb, the Passover holiday, and Easter. Like the word "matzah," pesah is assumed in this narrative to be an immediately understandable term, so it too must have a history that predates the Exodus. The etymology of the word is uncertain, although it may be related to an Akkadian root meaning "to appease." Three traditions about the meaning of the stem have survived: "to have compassion," "to protect," and "to skip over" (see 12:13).

Friedman
[re 12:13,23,27] halt. Hebrew pesah does not mean "to pass over." That wording has led people to images of the diety floating over houses. The verb means "to halt" or "to walk in a halting manner"; it can refer to limping (2 Sam 4:4). The noun form pisseah means a cripple (2 Sam 9:13). Admittedly, this verb occurs in Isaiah in a verse that pictures God defending Jerusalem "like birds flying" (31:5). Still, "halting" fits with the context here in Exodus, especially in 12:23, where it suggests a conception of the deity moving along through Egypt, spotting blood on the doorposts, and coming to an abrupt stop. God "halts on the threshold" and does not allow the destroying force to enter the house. "Passing over" the threshold does not really fit with this picture of blocking or preventing the destroyer.To halt, to appease, to harvest, to pass over: of these four, the idea of 'passing over' impresses me as the most passive and least appealing. The Isaiah 31:5 verse brings to mind, not birds passing over their nest, but hovering above (or circling) it to protect its contents from predation. To this extent I am sympathetic to Friedman.

But what, then, becomes of: "It is YHWH's/HaShem'S Passover"?

I find myself intrigued by Segal's reference to an Egyptian word commemorating the harvest, i.e.,

"It is YHWH's/HaShem'S Harvest"

The harvest was a very big deal back then, and it was only appropriate that YHWH/HaShem be allotted the first harvest of the new growing season. Furthermore, what could be more poetic and powerful than the harvest of the first-born at the hands of some Grim Reaper?

Is this the 'correct' translation. Probably not. But it demonstrates the nuance and the poetry and the mystery of the Book, and I, for one, will never view the term 'Passover' in quite the same way again.

sylvius
January 31st 2006, 05:13 PM
I find myself intrigued by Segal's reference to an Egyptian word commemorating the harvest, i.e.,

"It is YHWH's/HaShem'S Harvest"

The harvest was a very big deal back then, and it was only appropriate that YHWH/HaShem be allotted the first harvest of the new growing season. Furthermore, what could be more poetic and powerful than the harvest of the first-born at the hands of some Grim Reaper?

Is this the 'correct' translation. Probably not. But it demonstrates the nuance and the poetry and the mystery of the Book, and I, for one, will never view the term 'Passover' in quite the same way again.

what about: 'pesach' = 'lechem' (bread)+ 'yayin' (wine) ?

numerical value of 'pesach' , written 'peh-samech-chet', is 148.
numerical value of 'lechem', written 'lamed-chet-mem', is 78
numerical value of 'yayin', written 'yud-yud-nun', is 70.

148 = 78 + 70

Jayhawker Soule
January 31st 2006, 05:51 PM
what about: 'pesach' = 'lechem' (bread)+ 'yayin' (wine) ?

numerical value of 'pesach' , written 'peh-samech-chet', is 148.
numerical value of 'lechem', written 'lamed-chet-mem', is 78
numerical value of 'yayin', written 'yud-yud-nun', is 70.

148 = 78 + 70 :sigh: or kemach and pesach are 148, or ... :sigh:

sylvius
February 1st 2006, 02:33 AM
:sigh: or kemach and pesach are 148, or ... :sigh:

bread has to do with harvest; pesach being the beginning of the barley-harvest.


NT bread and wine is body and blood of the Christ.

NT is about pesach, i.e. (final) redemption.

Jayhawker Soule
February 1st 2006, 07:00 AM
<yawn> off topic drivel </yawn>

sylvius
February 1st 2006, 08:02 AM
<yawn> off topic drivel </yawn>


bread has to be reaped.

Jewish blessing over bread:

"Baruch ata adonay eloheinu melech haolam hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz"
"Blessed are you Lord our God king of the universe who brings forth bread from the earth."

now good?

Jayhawker Soule
February 1st 2006, 09:46 AM
now good?I quite frankly find your insistence on polluting this thread with inane Chritian apologetics rather sad.

sylvius
February 1st 2006, 10:44 AM
I quite frankly find your insistence on polluting this thread with inane Chritian apologetics rather sad.


Is it that you don't want to know nothing about NT, or that you think my remarks are stupid?

in both cases I can nothing do for it.

'Grim Reaper' , that was your invention,
" what could be more poetic and powerful than the harvest of the first-born at the hands of some Grim Reaper?"


stating:
"... I, for one, will never view the term 'Passover' in quite the same way again."


I'm not at all a Christian apologist.

And if you are not Christian, or even anti-Chrisitan, you still could think about how f.e. Mark 14:12 might be understood:

"On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when they ate the Passover, his disciples said to him, "Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"

Jayhawker Soule
February 1st 2006, 10:55 AM
And if you are not Christian, or even anti-Chrisitan, you still could think about how f.e. Mark 14:12 might be understood: ...I could also think about Dorothy and the Munchkins, but that too would be irrelevant, though not quite so distasteful as parasitic apologetics.

sylvius
February 1st 2006, 11:06 AM
I could also think about Dorothy and the Munchkins, but that too would be irrelevant, though not quite so distasteful as parasitic apologetics.
thanks.