Stauros / Staurow

[John Reece]

In the Greek New Testament, the noun stauroV (cross) occurs 27 times, and the verb staurow (crucify) occurs 46 times.

I propose to look at each of these occurrences in context, in hopes of acquiring a better understanding of the cross of Christ and what it means to be crucified with Him.

[GrayPilgrim]

Looks like another great topic John!

[John Reece]

Thanks, GP.

I wanted to do something in line with my signature line. The material is certainly conducive to that.

[Socrates]

Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, has some good material on that. Tektonics also has some good material www.tektonics.org/JPH_BWTB.html#nocross. Hmm, dunno if it was quite what JR wanted even though it fitted the thread title :shrug:

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=146610#post146610)
Socrates:

. . . . . . . Hmm, dunno if it was quite what JR wanted even though it fitted the thread title :shrug:

:smile: Thanks, Socrates.

You are right in your second thoughts.

:cheers:

[John Reece]

Matthew 10

37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross (stauroV) and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Luke 14

The Cost of Discipleship

25 Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross (stauroV) and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. (ESV)

From Matthew (TNTC) by R. T. France:

37. Because of the division which Jesus provokes within families (vv. 34-36), true discipleship may bring a conflict of loyalties, and in that case, following Jesus must take precedence over the natural love of family. The Christian may even have to leave his family (19:29). The Lucan parallel (Lk. 14:26) calls for ‘hatred’ of the family, but Matthew’s version correctly interprets this Semitic idiom (cf. Gn. 29:31; Dt. 21:15; Mal. 1:2-3) as an expression of prior loyalty or of choice rather than of actual dislike. Jesus calls not for an unloving attitude, but for a willingness to put him first in the concrete situation where the calls of Jesus and of family conflict.

38. Worse still, the disciple will find that in following Jesus he must take his cross (cf. 16:24 for a positive command to do so). After Jesus’ own crucifixion, the meaning would be obvious – the public obloquy of the walk through Jerusalem to Golgotha and the painful unjust death, if they were not the disciple’s literal fate, vividly illustrated what he could expect from ‘men’ – like Master, like servant (cf. vv 24-25). But could his disciples have understood this during his ministry? He had not yet taught them about his coming death, but already the opposition experienced and predicated made it a clear possibility. And crucifixion itself was not an uncommon sight in Roman Palestine; ‘cross-bearing’ language would have a clear enough meaning, even before they realized how literally he himself was to exemplify it.

39. The paradox of this verse recurs frequently in the Gospels in slightly varying forms (16:25; Mk. 8:35; Lk. 9:24; 17:33; Jn. 12:25); clearly it was a keynote of Jesus’ call to discipleship. Finds here corresponds to ‘would save’, ‘seeks to gain’, ‘loves’ in parallel passages . . . True life, real fulfillment, is found neither by the line of least resistance nor by aggressive self-assertion. But this is not a general philosophical maxim; it is the loss of life (not necessarily literally, though it may be) for my sake which achieves the goal. The disciple puts Jesus before his own natural inclinations and interests as well as before those of family. As throughout this passage, Jesus’ demand centers on loyalty to himself, in full awareness of the conflict this may entail.

[John Reece]

I really hope George Blaisdell contributes to this thread.

[John Reece]

Matthew 16

Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross (stauroV) and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 8

34 And he called to him the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross (stauroV) and follow me. 35 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? 37 For what can a man give in return for his life? 38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." 9:1 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Luke 9

23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross (stauroV) daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (ESV)

When I started this thread, I did not anticipate what now confronts me in the parallel texts above: That is, a challenge to present a personal testimony of my having made a project of embracing the cross of Christ (over a period of many months) for a particular purpose: That purpose was to avail myself of God’s grace to submit my eschatological presuppositions to a death at the cross of Christ (while at the same time re-reading the Greek New Testament repeatedly), so as to see and understand what the biblical texts mean in terms of the timing of the inauguration of the reign of the Son of Man in his kingdom. I made that commitment and persevered in it without ever having noticed the fact that the principle I was applying with regard to the eschatological texts occurs in context with those very texts (with reference to the verses in view above).

[John Reece]

Matthew 20

17 And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them, 18 "See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death 19 and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified (an inflection of staurow), and he will be raised on the third day."

Matthew 26

1 When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples, 2 "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified (an inflection of staurow)."
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. 5 But they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people."

Matthew 23

13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify (an inflection of staurow), and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (ESV)

The reason the texts are ordered and grouped the way they are in my posts is simply that they are presented that way in Alfred Schmoller’s Handkonkordanz zum Griechischen Neuen Testament, which I am using for the purposes of this thread. I do not understand the rationale for some of Schmoller’s order and groupings of the texts (such as the ones above), but I do not have any criteria of my own for any alternate way of including all the texts in the thread.

The amount of context surrounding the texts (listed and arranged in Schmoller’s Handkonkordanz) is being determined by paragraphing in the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament.

[John Reece]

Matthew 27

20 Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21 The governor again said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you?" And they said, "Barabbas." 22 Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!" 23 And he said, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Let him be crucified!"

Mark 15

6 Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. 7 And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas. 8 And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as he usually did for them. 9 And he answered them, saying, "Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?" 10 For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up. 11 But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barabbas instead. 12 And Pilate again said to them, "Then what shall I do with the man you call the King of the Jews?" 13 And they cried out again, "Crucify him." 14 And Pilate said to them, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Crucify him." 15 So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Luke 23

18 But they all cried out together, "Away with this man, and release to us Barabbas"—19 a man who had been thrown into prison for an insurrection started in the city and for murder. 20 Pilate addressed them once more, desiring to release Jesus, 21but they kept shouting, "Crucify, crucify him!" 22 A third time he said to them, "Why, what evil has he done? I have found in him no guilt deserving death. I will therefore punish and release him." 23 But they were urgent, demanding with loud cries that he should be crucified. And their voices prevailed.

John 19

6 When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, "Crucify him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him." 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God." 8 When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. 9 He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?" 11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."
12 From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar." 13 So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaic Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!” 15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 So he delivered him over to them to be crucified. (ESV)

[John Reece]

Matthew 27

24 So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." 25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" 26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor's headquarters, and they gathered the whole battalion before him. 28 And they stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 30 And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the robe and put his own clothes on him and led him away to crucify him.
32 As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. 33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), 34 they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. 35 And when they had crucified him, they divided his garments among them by casting lots. 36 Then they sat down and kept watch over him there. 37 And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, "This is Jesus, the King of the Jews." 38 Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. 39 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross." 41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 "He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.'" 44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

Mark 15

16 And the soldiers led him away inside the palace (that is, the governor's headquarters), and they called together the whole battalion. 17 And they clothed him in a purple cloak, and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on him. 18 And they began to salute him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 19 And they were striking his head with a reed and spitting on him and kneeling down in homage to him. 20 And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the purple cloak and put his own clothes on him. And they led him out to crucify him.
21 And they compelled a passerby, Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross. 22 And they brought him to the place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull). 23 And they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. 24 And they crucified him and divided his garments among them, casting lots for them, to decide what each should take. 25 And it was the third hour when they crucified him. 26 And the inscription of the charge against him read, "The King of the Jews." 27 And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left. 29 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, "Aha! You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save yourself, and come down from the cross!" 31 So also the chief priests with the scribes mocked him to one another, saying, "He saved others; he cannot save himself. 32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe." Those who were crucified with him also reviled him.

Luke 23

26 And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him. 28 But turning to them Jesus said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.' 31 For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
32 Two others, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. 33 And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. 34 And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And they cast lots to divide his garments. 35 And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, "He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!" 36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine 37 and saying, "If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!" 38There was also an inscription over him, "This is the King of the Jews."

John 19

17 and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called the place of a skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha. 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews." 20 Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. 21 So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but rather, 'This man said, I am King of the Jews.'" 22 Pilate answered, "What I have written I have written." 23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his garments and divided them into four parts, one part for each soldier; also his tunic. But the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom, 24 so they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be." This was to fulfill the Scripture which says, "They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.

31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35 He who saw it has borne witness--his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth--that you also may believe. 36 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken." 37 And again another Scripture says, "They will look on him whom they have pierced."

38 After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight. 40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. (ESV)

[John Reece]

Matthew 28

The Resurrection

1 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you." 8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me."

Mark 16

5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you."

Luke 24

1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise." (ESV)

[John Reece]

Luke 24

On the Road to Emmaus

13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, "What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?" 19 And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see." 25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 2

29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, 35 until I make your enemies your footstool.' 36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Acts 4

5 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, "By what power or by what name did you do this?" 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (ESV)

[John Reece]

1 Corinthians 1

Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided (memeristai)? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (ESV)

From The First Epistle of St Paul to the Corinthians (ICC), by Archibald Robertson and Alfred Plummer:

13. memeristai. The clauses are all interrogative, and are meant for the refutation of all. ‘Does Christ belong to a section” Is Paul your savior? Was it in his name you were admitted into the Church?’ The probable meaning of memeristai is ‘has been apportioned,’ i.e. given to some one as his separate share (vii. 17; Rom. xii. 3; Heb. vii. 2).

Ponder Paul’s questions and comments in the text above, and then think about the notion that Peter (Cephas in the text above) and Paul preached “different gospels”, and the notion that Paul (the author of the text above) is the introducer of a different gospel for a different people than that preached by Peter/Cephas.

If Cephas/Peter and Paul preached different gospels to different people, why does Paul refer to “the gospel” as though there is only one? Because there is only one, which is centered in the cross of Christ.

The root of all schisms and heresies is a failure to comprehend and embrace the cross of Christ, and to be transformed by its power.

[John Reece]

1 Corinthians 11

23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (ESV)

Although neither the noun stauroV nor the verb staurow occur in the text above, they are references to the Lord’s death.

What I wish to relate here is not a matter of exegesis but of personal testimony.

Years ago, a pastor asked me to present a message to his church related to the sharing of the Lord’s Supper during the coming Sunday morning service. I decided to not try to think of anything to say, but to wait for the Lord to give me something fresh to share with the congregation. While meditating on the text that is quoted above, two questions came to mind: (1) What is the nature of the Lord’s death? (2) How is his death related to his coming? The answers came as spontaneously as the questions: (1) The Lord’s death was a death to all that is of man, so that all that is of God might be manifested in man. (2) The Lord’s coming is related to the manifestation in man of all that is of God.

[John Reece]

1 Corinthians 1

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (ESV)

The chapter divisions in Nestle-Aland and English versions obscure the fact that verses 17 and 18 belong together.

1 Corinthians 1

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

A crucified Messiah/Christ is as unacceptable to Judaists and sophists in modern times as was the case in biblical times. Jews and Christians alike project into our future fantasies of a return of Christ in the form of a triumphant earthly ruler who fulfills the Judaist expectation of a triumphant earthly King ruling from an earthly ethnic Jerusalem. Likewise, a crucified Messiah/Christ is unacceptable in terms of the criteria for judgment in the minds of philosophers, scholars, and debaters who ontologically bypass the cross of Christ and thus remain untransformed by its power.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

JR writes: I really hope George Blaisdell contributes to this thread.

George does too!
You really need to PM my sorry dairy hare, John, when you get a good thread like this going... I do not have time to browse the threads any more, and there is so MUCH...

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross (stauros) and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?"

So what is this? What does it mean to "bear one's own cross"? Didn't Christ bear the cross FOR us? What is this requirement of the WORK of bearing one's OWN CROSS??? Was there some insufficiency in the Cross of Christ? Is Christ telling us we have to DO something ourselves, in order to be saved??? That what He DID is not enough without our own doing as well? Is Christ preaching a salvation of works?

And the answer is, of course, yes - But only in a very different way of understanding than the pen-sub model of atonement is capable of understanding... For the cross is life to the Christian, and shameful death to the non-Christian. The cross is an instrument of slow torture unto death - And Paul tells us we are to "mortify" our flesh - And we do this by bearing our own cross. Our crucifixion as disciples is voluntary, just as was Christ's... And it takes us through the rest of our lives in the step by step ascent of mortification of the flesh, unto the completion [to telion] of our discipleship, unto the acquisition of perfection in Christ, which is the perfecting of the saints, unto apostleship, as shown in Paul, who was an apostle who never met Christ in the flesh... And Christ says that there are people in His presence who will not taste of death prior to seeing the kingdom of heaven. And we know from the beattitudes that those who see this are the pure in heart, yes? "Blessed are the pure in heart..."

So we can safely conclude that the bearing of one's own cross, the hating of self, and of all that belongs to self, purifies the heart, as it puts the self to death, painfully, step by step... St. John Climacus writes of this process of salvation as the Ladder of Divine Ascent, and there is indeed a book in print with this title... Paul calls this "running the race"... Brianchaninov calls it "The Arena" [another book title]...

It simply will not do, as one of your commentators writes, to say that things do not always go smoothly in Christ, so when it gets a little tough, we must not lose heart... That understanding utterly misses the mark. The turn is radical, the journey arduous and long, and the stakes are life and death, and as Christ observes, we are well advised to "count the cost" of discipleship... To sit our butts on some very sharp rocks and think long and hard, because everything that we hold dear has to go, in the faith that what is to come will make it all better - Our understanding, our comfort, our family, everything takes a radical second place to God... That is called
"faith"... And not merely assent, but enaction...

There is an escaton of this life... Some call it salvation... Orthodox call it living in humility unto God...

And I am a poor proponent, who has not achieved anything in this regard of worth, who is still floundering at the gates of repentance... So I pass on what others who are perfected say and write...

geo

[Rdr. Arsenios]

JR writes:

Likewise, a crucified Messiah/Christ is unacceptable in terms of the criteria for judgment in the minds of philosophers, scholars, and debaters who ontologically bypass the cross of Christ and thus remain untransformed by its power.

John - You ever visit here?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-or/

Your remark about the ontology vs the intellectuality of faith gave rise to that question...

'geo

[John Reece]

Today @ 03:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=150654#post150654)
George Blaisdell:

JR writes:

Likewise, a crucified Messiah/Christ is unacceptable in terms of the criteria for judgment in the minds of philosophers, scholars, and debaters who ontologically bypass the cross of Christ and thus remain untransformed by its power.

John - You ever visit here?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-or/

Your remark about the ontology vs the intellectuality of faith gave rise to that question...

'geo

No, George, I have never been there.

[John Reece]

1 Corinthians 2

Proclaiming Christ Crucified

1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Wisdom from the Spirit

6 Yet among the mature (toiV teleioiV) we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3

Divisions in the Church

1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people (pneumatikoiV), but as people of the flesh (sarkinoiV), as infants (nhpioV) in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way (kata anqrwpon peripateite)? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human (anqrwpoi este)? (ESV)

Christians, by virtue of the cross of Christ and the gift of the Spirit, are meant to be more than merely human (see last line of text above).

When we behave only in a human way (see next to last line in text above) we are living far beneath our potential, and far beneath God’s intention and provision for us.

The behavior Paul cites as evidence a carnal (sarkikoV) condition on the part of Christians is disunity among Christians. There is no cure for such other than the cross of Christ, embraced and experienced by all.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

JR writes:

"No, George, I have never been there."

Well then consider yourself invited...

geo

[John Reece]

Today @ 04:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=150976#post150976)
George Blaisdell:

JR writes:

"No, George, I have never been there."

Well then consider yourself invited...

geo

Thanks, geo :thumb:

[John Reece]

2 Corinthians 13

Final Warnings

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them—3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4 For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God. (ESV)

From I & II Corinthians (New Century Bible Commentary), by F. F. Bruce:

4. he was crucified in weakness: but that was weakness by worldly standards; in reality, Christ crucified is ‘the power of God’, for ‘the weakness of God is stronger than men’ (1 C. 1.24f.). lives by the power of God: cf. Rom. 6.4; Eph. 1.19ff. Those who are united by faith to Christ share the ‘weakness’ of his passion but also the power of his resurrection (cf. Phil. 3.10f.); Paul has already spoken to them of himself in these terms (4.10f.) and does so again: in dealing with you I shall manifest the power of God which comes through sharing the risen life of Christ.

[John Reece]

Galatians 3

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? (ESV)

From The Epistle to the Galatians: A commentary on the Greek Text (NIGTC), by F. F. Bruce:

Evidently in the cities of Galatia, as later in Corinth, Paul was resolved to know nothing ‘except Jesus Christ and him crucified’ (1 Cor. 2:2). The cross of Christ, with all that it involved, was central to his gospel. Cf. 1 Cor. 1:18, where he calls the gospel “the word of the cross’ (o logoV tou staurou), and 15:3, where Christ’s death ‘for our sins’ occupies the primary place in the kerygma which was common to Paul and the Jerusalem apostles. The gospel of Christ crucified, as Paul saw it, so completely ruled out the law as a means of getting right with God that it was scarcely credible that people who had once embraced such a gospel should ever turn to the law for salvation. (One might almost say, ‘should ever turn back to the law’, except that these Gentiles had never been under the law; yet see 4:9, epistrefete palin.)

Bruce’s comment that “Christ’s death ‘for our sins’ occupies the primary place in the kerygma which was common to Paul and the Jerusalem apostles” calls to mind the assertion that Peter and Paul preached different gospels. The “kerygma” is the content of the proclamation of the gospel that was common to Paul and the Jerusalem apostles.

[John Reece]

In post # 14 above, I failed to check the Greek text regarding this verse in the ESV:

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (ESV)

My comment on that verse is grossly in error, because in the Greek text, "to preach the gospel" does not occur as an infinitive plus an adjective and a noun (as in the ESV rendering), but rather as a verb: euaggelizesqai = an infinitive = "to preach the gospel".

[John Reece]

Galatians 5

7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. 11 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. 12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! (ESV)

From Commentary on Galatians (NIGTC), by F. F. Bruce:

5:11 . . . ara kathrghtai to skandalon tou staurou. The skandalon of the cross (cf. 1 Cor. 1:23), lay in the curse which it involved for one who was hanged on it (cf. 3:13). That one who died such a death should be proclaimed as Lord and Christ was intolerable. In the eyes of Gentiles the idea that salvation depended on one who had neither the wit nor the power to save himself from so disreputable a death was the height of folly. But there is a more general skandalon attached to the cross, one of which Paul is probably thinking here: it cuts the ground from every thought of personal achievement or merit where God’s salvation is in view. To be shut up to receiving salvation from the crucified one, if it is to be received at all, is an affront to all notions of proper self-pride and self-help – and for many people this remains a major stumbling block in the gospel of Christ crucified. If I myself can make some small contribution, something even so small as the acceptance of circumcision, then my self-esteem is uninjured.

But to nullify the scandal of the cross is to rob the cross of its saving potency, it is to nullify Christianity as such: ‘the aim of the Epistle to the Galatians is to show that all Christianity is contained in the Cross; the Cross is the generative principle of everything Christian in the life of man’ (J. Denny, The Death of Christ, 152).

[John Reece]

This survey of all occurrences of stauroV and staurow should include Paul’s use of sustauroomai : “be crucified together” (with someone else).


Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him (o palaioV hmwn anqrwpoV sunestaurwqh) in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ (Cristw sunestaurwmai). It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (ESV)

From Commentary on Galatians (NIGTC), by F. F. Bruce:

A change of lordship, from law to Christ, has taken place, but that is not all, says Paul: ‘I have been crucified with Christ’. Those who place their faith in Christ are united by that faith – united so closely that his experience now becomes theirs: they share his death to the old order (‘under law’; cf. 4:4) and his resurrection to new life. This, for Paul, is what is signified in baptism (cf. 3:27) – although he himself did not wait for his baptism to experience it; it came true for him at a stroke on the Damascus road. As Christ’s death was a death by crucifixion, the believer is said not only to have died with him but to have been ‘crucified with him’ (Cristw sunestaurwmai). In the passion narrative sustaurow is used literally of the two robbers who were ‘crucified with’ Jesus (Mt. 27:44; Mk.15:43; Jn. 19:32); here it is used figuratively, as also in Rom. 6:6, ‘the person we formerly were was crucified with him’ (o palaioV hmwn anqrwpoV sunestaurwqh). The figure is deliberately bold, designed to emphasize the finality of the death which has put an end to the old order and interposed a barrier between it and the new life in Christ (cf. 5:24; 6:14). The perfect tense sunestaurwmai emphasizes that the participation in the crucified Christ has become the believer’s settled way of life. ‘Union with Christ is nothing if it is not union with Christ in his death’ (J. D. G. Dunn, Unity, 195).

[John Reece]

Galatians 5

Walk by the Spirit

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh (thn sarka estaurwsan) with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (ESV)

From Commentary on Galatians (NIGTC), by F. F. Bruce:

5:24 . . . thn sarka estaurwsan. It is because they are Christ’s in the sense of being members of Christ, incorporated en Cristw, that they have ‘crucified the flesh’. The aorist probably indicates their participation in Christ’s historical crucifixion. When Paul said earlier Cristw sunestaurwmai (2:19), he meant that the cross of Christ severed his relationship with the law; here he says that the cross of Christ severs believers’ relation to the ‘flesh’. For Paul, as we have seen already, the law and the flesh belong to the same pre-Christian order. But the cross severed Paul’s relation to the law only as he himself was ‘crucified with Christ’, thus becoming ‘dead to the law’ that he might live to God; so also the cross severs the relation of believers in general to the flesh only as they reckon themselves to have been crucified in the historical crucifixion of Christ. The crucifixion of the former self-centered ego, that it may be replaced by the new Christ-centered mind – ‘it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me’ (2:20) – is not materially different from the crucifixion of the flesh, that it may be replaced by a Spirit-imparted life and a Spirit-directed conduct. Cf. Rom. 8:13, ‘if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live’.

Those who belong to Christ, then, those who acknowledge his lordship in no merely formal way (cf. Rom. 14:8, tou kuriou esmen), have made a clean break with what they formerly were (cf. Rom. 6:6, o palaioV hmwn anqrwpoV sunestaurwqh, ina katarghqh to swma thV amartiaV); they have been delivered from the ‘present evil age’ (1:4) and have become members of the new creation (6:15). It is the cross of Christ that makes this clean break. As truly as law and flesh are bound up for Paul with the present evil age, so truly is the indwelling Spirit the witness that the age to come has already broken in through the Christ-event. ‘Ideally, we must understand, this crucifixion of the flesh is involved with Christ’s crucifixion; really, it is affected by it. Whoever sees into the secret of Calvary . . . is conscious that the doom of sin is in it; to take it as real, and to stand in any relation to it, is death to the flesh with its passions and desires (J. Denny, The Death of Christ, 162)

[John Reece]

Galatians 6

11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ (monon ina tw staurw to Cristou mh diwkwntai). 13 For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Emoi de mh genoito kaucasqai ei mh en tw staurw tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou Cristou di ou emoi kosmoV estaurwtai kagw kosmw). 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (ESV)

From Commentary on Galatians (NIGTC), by F. F. Bruce:

6:12 . . . monon ina tw staurw to Cristou mh diwkwntai . . . If the troublemakers could persuade the Gentile Christians to accept circumcision, that might preserve the Jerusalem church and its daughter-churches in Judea from reprisals at the hands of the Zealot-minded militants for being linked with uncircumcised Gentiles. To such militants the cross of Christ, as it was proclaimed by Paul and those who agreed with him, was a skandalon (cf. 5:11) because it excluded salvation by adherence to the law of Moses. Those who refused to require circumcision from Gentile converts (a refusal enshrined in the Jerusalem decree of Acts 15:28f; 21:25) were liable to be persecuted – persecuted in fact, as Paul says, for the cross of Christ. Those who demanded that Gentile believers should be circumcised hoped to avoid such persecution. This clause of purpose provides a strong argument in support of R. Jewett’s thesis ‘that Jewish Christians in Judea were stimulated by Zealotic pressure into a nomistic campaign among their fellow Christians in the late forties and early fifties’ (‘The Agitators and the Galatian Congregation’, NTS 17 [1970-71], 205).

6:14 . . . Emoi de mh genoito kaucasqai ei mh en tw staurw tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou Cristou. Let other boast in things external: Paul makes his boast in something nobler. Boasting in one’s own record belongs to the old order of law (cf. Rom. 2:23. oV en nomw kaucasai) and flesh (cf. Phil. 3:4, pepoiqenai en sarki); it is ‘excluded’ (exekleisqh, Rom, 3:27) from the new order of faith.

. . . di ou emoi kosmoV estaurwtai kagw kosmw) . . . For one who makes the cross his supreme, indeed his solitary, ground of boasting all the accepted standards of social life are necessarily turned upside down: a total ‘transvaluation of values’ has taken place. Not only does he no longer know any one kata sarka (by ‘worldly standards’); he has made a radical reassessment of everything in the light of the cross. It is true that ‘crucifixion to the old world of boasting means a lasting separation from the world’ (R. C. Tannehill, Dying and Rising, 63); a lasting separation has also been effected from the whole contemporary world, with its climate of opinion and canons of honour and dishonour.

[John Reece]

Ephesians 2

One in Christ

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man (ena kainon anqrwpon) in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross (kai apokatallaxh touV amfoterouV en eni swmati tw qew dia tou staurou), thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (ESV)

From The Letter to the Ephesians (PNTC), by Peter T. O’Brien (Eerdmans, 1999):

It is both Jews and Gentiles who are in need of God’s saving grace that are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (note the ‘we’ of 2:10, which includes Jewish and Gentile Christians). Only those in Christ, both near and far, have been brought near by his sacrificial death, and he has come and preached peace to both groups. The union of which vv. 14-17 speaks is not a union of Jews and Gentiles but of redeemed Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ.

Thus, once again in this theologically important paragraph Christ’s sacrificial death is set forth as the ground of reconciliation: v. 13 states that those who were far off have been brought near ‘through the blood of Christ’; v. 15 speaks of Christ’s abolishing the enmity ‘in his flesh’, that is, his death; and now the centrality of Christ’s cross is reaffirmed, this time as the basis of that reconciliation by which Jews and Gentiles in one body are brought into fellowship with God (note the significance of Christ’s death at 1:7; 5:2, 25).

[Rdr. Arsenios]

John - It is hard to see even a single flower in its daily life, from dawn to sunset, at even a brisk walk, let alone at 70 mph through the windshield, let alone at 33,000 feet and 520 knots...

You are dumping into these threads so much material that none of it can really even be sipped, let alone tasted, let alone dined upon, let alone be digested...

Why so much speed and tonnage?

There is an ongoing discussion on many topics on the evangellical-orthodox list regarding the ontology vs the theology of salvation - with the O's on the side of ontology, and the Ev's wanting to get their faith properly into words... That's why I thought of you for there, when you brought up the ontology of salvation, rather than the faith [e.g. proper profession of belief] of it... The ontology of faith is not in words, but the words point toward [or away from, if heretical] the faith. The key is entering into the ontology of the faith, the mystery... Which requires purification of the conscience...

Anyway, there is so much you are thundering along in with so much tonnage at such high speed that responding to anything is, from my poor and old and slow mind really hard to get a grip upon...

I guess I just do not exactly either understand or perhaps appreciate your focus or purpose in the thread... Is it mostly just to get the material covered? Or do you have questions that are the focus? I have kind of lost track...

I am more of a rifleman, and yours seems more of a shotgun approach... Can you help me out? What are you seeking to achieve by quoting every scripture with 'cross' words in it and then quote Bruce's commentary?

Thank-you...

geo - Feeling rather avalanched...

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=152873#post152873)
George Blaisdell:

John - It is hard to see even a single flower in its daily life, from dawn to sunset, at even a brisk walk, let alone at 70 mph through the windshield, let alone at 33,000 feet and 520 knots...

You are dumping into these threads so much material that none of it can really even be sipped, let alone tasted, let alone dined upon, let alone be digested...

Why so much speed and tonnage?

There is an ongoing discussion on many topics on the evangellical-orthodox list regarding the ontology vs the theology of salvation - with the O's on the side of ontology, and the Ev's wanting to get their faith properly into words... That's why I thought of you for there, when you brought up the ontology of salvation, rather than the faith [e.g. proper profession of belief] of it... The ontology of faith is not in words, but the words point toward [or away from, if heretical] the faith. The key is entering into the ontology of the faith, the mystery... Which requires purification of the conscience...

Anyway, there is so much you are thundering along in with so much tonnage at such high speed that responding to anything is, from my poor and old and slow mind really hard to get a grip upon...

I guess I just do not exactly either understand or perhaps appreciate your focus or purpose in the thread... Is it mostly just to get the material covered? Or do you have questions that are the focus? I have kind of lost track...

I am more of a rifleman, and yours seems more of a shotgun approach... Can you help me out? What are you seeking to achieve by quoting every scripture with 'cross' words in it and then quote Bruce's commentary?

Thank-you...

geo - Feeling rather avalanched...

George,

I’m sorry for the disparity in pace between us. You have indicated in a prior post on another thread that you are busy and have little time to drop in and browse this forum. I, on the other hand, have nothing else whatsoever to do.

What I am doing is research, and there are many words I wish to study. I find myself eager to finish the current thread so as to get on to the next.

What I have posted is here for you to browse at your own pace, and respond to at your own pace.

I find your responses to be quite interesting to read, and would be happy to read and reply to your response to – hypothetically speaking – post number 4 while I am putting up post number 40.

I went to the link you provided for the evangelical-orthodox list, but found that I could not view anything without joining Yahoo Groups, which I am not interested in doing. I currently have absolutely zero spam in my e-mail traffic, because I have refrained from joining any e-groups or lists since getting my current email address. I’m enjoying the freedom from spam that my current non-exposure to list groups is affording me – so much so that I’m willing to miss out on whatever is going on at sites that are closed to me. Also, since Dee Dee found me and invited me to TWeb (providentially, immediately after I got new DSL service with a new email address), I have been spoiled by the quality of this site, its participants, and the user-friendly features provided by yxboom & co. For me, TWeb on the Internet is like my wonderful retirement home in the midst of many acres of beautiful woodland – I never want to go anywhere else, even to visit.

Blessings,

John

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 04:25 AM
John Reece:



George,

I’m sorry for the disparity in pace between us. You have indicated in a prior post on another thread that you are busy and have little time to drop in and browse this forum. I, on the other hand, have nothing else whatsoever to do.

I suspect that you are more a person who designs, builds, plants and cultivates great gardens, while I am but a sniffer of roses... I had no idea you were such a man of leisure so as to be able to afford this luxuriance of time and effort in gardening!


What I am doing is research, and there are many words I wish to study. I find myself eager to finish the current thread so as to get on to the next.

So you do not work two jobs to make enough money to just barely get by supporting your unemployed wife and 40 kids, 20 of whom are in graduate school??? :-) Plus get through all your daily prayers at the appointed hours and volunteer at your Church for the myriad projects that make a church a community? Not to mention going fishing with your sons and tom-boy daughters? And keep the car washed and waxed and the lawn cut? And how about getting your wood in for winter heat? And your hay up for the critters? I mean, do you really and truely have "nothing else whatsoever to do" than this forum??

I'm putting you in for the Guiness Book, and will send you some Guiness Stout as well! As a matter of fact, I'll have some Stout myself!


What I have posted is here for you to browse at your own pace, and respond to at your own pace.

OK - I'll report in on sweet and unusual rosaic fragrances I encounter, while you are busy ploughing dirt and erecting rockeries and installing irrigation piping and on and on!


I find your responses to be quite interesting to read, and would be happy to read and reply to your response to – hypothetically speaking – post number 4 while I am putting up post number 40.

You are too generous! More like post 1 for me and 5,386,219 for you!


I went to the link you provided for the evangelical-orthodox list, but found that I could not view anything without joining Yahoo Groups, which I am not interested in doing. I currently have absolutely zero spam in my e-mail traffic, because I have refrained from joining any e-groups or lists since getting my current email address. I’m enjoying the freedom from spam that my current non-exposure to list groups is affording me –

Oh you are living a blessed life indeed - NO SPAM??? I put my whole e-mail program on total filtering, and only allow in whom I have in my addy's... The smut spam is the worst.


so much so that I’m willing to miss out on whatever is going on at sites that are closed to me.

Now that's hard to find any fault with whatsoever!


Also, since Dee Dee found me and invited me to TWeb (providentially, immediately after I got new DSL service with a new email address), I have been spoiled by the quality of this site, its participants, and the user-friendly features provided by yxboom & co. For me, TWeb on the Internet is like my wonderful retirement home in the midst of many acres of beautiful woodland – I never want to go anywhere else, even to visit.

Well, one of the things you can do, should you choose, is get a web-based e-mail program [yahoo or hotmail are good] and go visiting - And when the spam starts coming, close the account and get a new one... But you look to be luxuriating in hawg-heaven right where you are, so I would not be in all that big a rush to step out of it even for a peek....

And you are right - This is a pretty good bunch right here on T-Web - I bumped into it and was surprised at the quality of its contributors.

I'll try to respond once in a while to your postings...

geo [the fragrancomancer]

[John Reece]

geo,

:smile:

I have been pondering your comments and see the merits therein.

Rather than speed through the rest of this thread to get to others I am interested in doing, I have decided to start more threads now, and go through each more slowly than I am inclined to do when focusing on only one at a time.

I'll be looking forward to reading more of your delightful commentary.

Blessings,

John

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 08:26 AM
John Reece:

geo,

:smile:

I have been pondering your comments and see the merits therein.

There is a place, I suppose, for the simple and massive acquisition of a study... I used to read my chemistry books like that, wanting to get the material covered so that I would 'have' it... Yet this is not that...


Rather than speed through the rest of this thread to get to others I am interested in doing, I have decided to start more threads now, and go through each more slowly than I am inclined to do when focusing on only one at a time.

That makes a lot of sense to me - but then I am a genuine wimp... ':smile:' And if it doesn't turn out to work for you, you can get back easily to the one at time intensive...

The thing that I don't yet get is your purpose... I see you include commentary by someone named Bruce - Would it be helpful to post, say, Patristic commentary - John Chrysostom is on-line, as are lots of the Fathers - But Chrysostom is probably the very best on Paul of anyone ever - Ancient OR modern...


I'll be looking forward to reading more of your delightful commentary.

Now watch me clam up! ':smile:'

Maybe Monday morning...

You take care...

geo

[John Reece]

Today @ 10:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=153504#post153504)
George Blaisdell:

. . . The thing that I don't yet get is your purpose... I see you include commentary by someone named Bruce - Would it be helpful to post, say, Patristic commentary - John Chrysostom is on-line, as are lots of the Fathers - But Chrysostom is probably the very best on Paul of anyone ever - Ancient OR modern...

geo

geo,

That's what I want you to do.

Bruce is a preeminent exegetical scholar who offers pithy comment on the Greek text.

I have never studied Patristic commentary and am not about to start at this late stage in life (I’m 70 years old and have health problems that make it very difficult for me to spend much time at the computer without experiencing significant discomfort).

So let’s hear from you what Chrysostom has written.

Blessings,

John

[Rdr. Arsenios]

07-17-2003 @ 07:42 AM
John Reece:

[list]1 Corinthians 2

Proclaiming Christ Crucified

1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

This is the Chrysostom commentary [which was a homily delivered to his congregation] on this pericope. You can see that it is very lengthy...


Nothing was ever more prepared for combat than the spirit of Paul; or rather, I should say, not his spirit, (for he was not himself the inventor of these things,) but, nothing was ever equal to the grace working within him, which overcometh all things...[snip] "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel; not with wisdom of words" But far greater, yea, infinitely greater, than Paul's willing this, is the fact that Christ willed it.

"Not therefore," saith he, "by display of eloquence, neither armed with arguments from without, do I declare the testimony of God." He saith not "the preaching," but "the testimony of God;" which word was itself sufficient to withhold him. For he went about preaching death: and for this reason he added, "for I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." This was the meaning he meant to convey, that he is altogether destitute of the wisdom which is without; as indeed he was saying above," I came not with excellency of speech:" for that he might have possessed this also is plain; for he whose garments raised the dead and whose shadow expelled diseases, much more was his soul capable of receiving eloquence. For this is a thing which may be taught: but the former transcendeth all art. He then who knows things beyond the reach of art, much more must he have had strength for lesser things. But Christ permitted not; for it was not expedient. Rightly therefore he saith, "For I determined not to know any thing: "for I, too, for my part have just the same will as Christ."

And to me it seems that he speaks to them in a lower tone even than to any others, in order to repress their pride. Thus, the expression, "I determined to know nothing," was spoken in contradistinction to the wisdom which is with out. "For I came not weaving syllogisms nor sophisms, nor saying unto you anything else than" Christ was crucified." They indeed have ten thousand things to say, and concerning ten thousand things they speak, winding out long courses of words, framing arguments and syllogisms, compounding sophisms without end. But I came unto you saying no other thing than "Christ was crucified," and all of them I out-stripped: which is a sign such as no words can express of the power of Him whom I preach."

[2.] Ver. 3. "And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling."

This again is another topic: for not only are the believers unlearned persons; not only is he that speaketh unlearned; not only is the manner of the teaching of an unlearned cast throughout; not only was the thing preached of itself enough to stagger people; (for the cross and death were the message brought;) but together with these there were also other hindrances, the dangers, and the plots, and the daily fear, and the being hunted about. For the word "weakness," with him in many places stands for the persecutions: as also elsewhere. "My weakness which I had in my flesh ye did not set at nought:" (Galatians chapter 4, verse 13 and Galatians chapter 4, verse 14)and again, "If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern my weakness." (2 Corinthians chapter 11, verse 30) What [weakness]? "The governor under Aretas the king guarded the city of the Damascenes, desirous to apprehend me." (2 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 32) And again, "Wherefore I take pleasure in weakness:" (2 Corinthians chapter 12, verse 10) then, saying in what, he added, "In injuries, in necessities, in distresses." And here he makes the same statement; for having said, "And I was in weakness," etc. he did not stop at this point, but explaining the word "weakness" makes mention of his dangers. He adds again, "and in fear, and in much trembling, I was with you."

"How sayest thou? Did Paul also fear dangers?" He did fear, and dreaded them excessively; for though he was Paul, yet he was a man. But this is no charge against Paul, but infirmity of human nature; and it is to the praise of his fixed purpose of mind that when he even dreaded death and stripes, he did nothing wrong because of this fear. So that they who assert that he feared not stripes, not only do not honor him, but rather abridge greatly his praises. For if he feared not, what endurance or what self-restraint was there in bearing the dangers? I, for my part, on this account admire him; because being in fear, and not simply in "fear," but even in "trembling" at his perils, he so ran as ever to keep his crown; and gave not in for any danger, in his task of purging out the world, and everywhere both by sea and land sowing the Gospel.

[3.] Ver. 4. "And my speech and my preaching was not in persuasive words of wisdom:" that is, had not the wisdom from without. Now if the doctrine preached had nothing subtle, and they that were called were unlearned, and he that preached was of the same description, and thereto was added persecution, and trembling and fear; tell me, how did they overcome without Divine power? And this is why, having said, "My speech and my preaching was not in persuasive words of wisdom," he added, "but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."

Dost thou perceive how "the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness stronger?" They for their part, bring unlearned and preaching such a Gospel, in their chains and persecution overcame their persecutors. Whereby? was it not by their furnishing that evidence which is of the Spirit? For this indeed is confessed demonstration. For who, tell me, after he had seen dead men rising to life and devils cast out, could have helped admitting it?

But seeing that there are also deceivingwonders, such as those of sorcerers, he removes this suspicion also. For he said not simply "of power," but first, "of the Spirit," and then, "of power:" signifying that the things done were spiritual.

It is no disparagement, therefore, that the Gospel was not declared by means of wisdom; rather it is a very great ornament. For this, it will be allowed, is the clearest token of its being divine and having its roots from above, out of the heavens. Wherefore he added also,

Ver. 5. "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

Seest thou how dearly in every way he hath set forth the vast gain of this "ignorance," and the great loss of this "wisdom?" For the latter made void the Cross, but the former proclaimed the power of God: the latter, besides their failing to discover any of those things which they most needed, set them also upon boasting of themselves; the former, besides their receiving the truth, led them also to pride themselves in God. Again, wisdom would have persuaded many to suspect that the doctrine was of man: thisclearly demonstrated it to be divine, and to have come down from heaven. Now when demonstration is made by wisdom of words, even the worse oftentimes overcome the better, having more skill in words; and falsehood outstrips the truth. But in this case it is not so: for neither doth the Spirit enter into an unclean soul, nor, having entered in, can it ever be subdued; even though alI possible cleverness of speech assail it. For the demonstration by works and signs is for more evident than that by words.

[4.] But some one may say perhaps, "If the Gospel is to prevail and hath no need of words, lest the Cross be made of none effect; for what reason are signs withholden now?" For what reason? Speakest thou in unbelief and not allowing that they were done even in the times of the Apostles, or dost thou truly seek to know? If in unbelief, I will first make my stand against this. I say then, If signs were not done at that time, how did they, chased, and persecuted, and trembling, and in chains, and having become the common enemies of the world, and exposed to all as a mark for ill usage, and with nothing of their own to allure, neither speech, nor show, nor wealth, nor city, nor nation, nor family, nor pursuit (etihdeuma,) nor glory, nor any such like thing; but with all things contrary, ignorance, meanness, poverty, hatred, enmity, and setting themselves against whole commonwealths, and with such a message to declare; how, I say, did they work conviction? For both the precepts brought much labor, and the doctrines many dangers. And they that heard and were to obey, had been brought up in luxury and drunkenness, and in great wickedness. Tell me then, how did they convince? Whence had they their credibility? For, as I have just said, If without signs they wrought conviction, far greater does the wonder appear. Do not then urge the fact that signs are not done now, as a proof that they were not done then. For as then they were usefully wrought; so now are they no longer so wrought.

Nor doth it necessarily follow from discourse being the only instrument of conviction, that now the "preaching" is in "wisdom." For both they who from the beginning sowed the word were unprofessional (idiptai) and unlearned, and spake nothing of themselves; but what things they received from God, these they distributed to the world: and we ourselves at this time introduce no inventions of our own; but the things which from them we have received, we speak unto all. And not even now persuade we by argumentation; but from the Divine Scriptures and from the miracles done at that time we produce the proof of what we say. On the other hand, even they at that time persuaded not by signs alone, but also by discoursing. And the signs and the testimonies out of the Old Scriptures, not the cleverness of the things said, made their words appear more powerful.

[5.] How then, you will say, is it that signs were expedient then, and now inexpedient? Let us suppose a case, (for as yet I am contending against the Greek, and therefore I speak hypothetically of what must certainly come to pass,) let us, I say, suppose a case; and let the unbeliever consent to believe our affirmations, though it be only by way of concession: (kan kata sundromhn) for instance, That Christ will come. When then Christ shall come and all the angels with Him, and be manifested as God, and all things made subject unto Him; will not even the Greek believe? It is quite plan that he will also fall down and worship, and confess Him God, though his stubbornness exceed all reckoning. For who, at sight of the heavens opened and Him coming upon the clouds, and all the congregation of the powers above spread around Him, and rivers of fire coming on, and all standing by and trembling, will not fall down before Him, and believe Him God? Tell me, then; shall that adoration and knowledge be accounted unto the Greek for faith? No, on no account. And why not? Because this is not faith. For necessity hath done this, and the evidence of the things seen, and it is not of choice, but by the vastness of the spectacle the powers of the mind are dragged along. It follows that by how much the more evident and overpowering the course of events, by so much is the part of faith abridged. For this reason miracles are not done now.

And that this is the truth, hear what He saith unto Thomas (St. John xx. 29) "Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed." Therefore, in proportion to the evidence wherewith the miracle is set forth is the reward of faith lessened. So that if now also miracles were wrought, the same thing would ensue. For that then we shall no longer know Him by faith, Paul hath shewn, saying, "For now we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 7 nun not in the received text.) As at that time, although thou believe, it shall not be imputed unto thee, because the thing is so palpable; so also now, supposing that such miracles were done as were formerly. For when we admit things which in no degree and in no way can be made out by reasoning, then it is faith. It is for this that hell is threatened, but is not shewn: for if it were shewn, the same would again ensue.





Wisdom from the Spirit

6 Yet among the mature (toiV teleioiV) we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8

1 Corinthians chapter 2, verse 6 and 1 Corinthians chapter 6, verse 7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect, yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, which are coming to naught; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God fore-ordained before the worlds unto our glory.

Darkness seems to be more suitable than light to those that are diseased in their eyesight: wherefore they betake themselves by preference to some room that is thoroughly shaded over. This also is the case with the wisdom which is spiritual. As the wisdom which is of God seemed to be foolishness unto those without: so their own wisdom, being foolishness indeed, was accounted by them wisdom. The result has been just as if a man having skill in navigation were to promise that without a ship or sails he would pass over a boundless tract of sea, and then endeavor by reasonings to prove that the thing is possible; but some other person, ignorant of it all, committing himself to a ship and a steersman and sailors, were thus to sail in safety. For the seeming ignorance of this man is wiser than the wisdom of the other. For excellent is the art of managing a ship; but when it makes too great professions it is a kind of folly. And so is every art which is not contented with its own proper limits. Just so the wisdom which is without [were wisdom indeed] if it had had the benefit of the spirit. But since it trusted all to itself and supposed that it wanted none of that help, it became foolishness, although it seemed to be wisdom. Wherefore having first exposed it by the facts, then and not till then he calls it foolishness; and having first called the wisdom of God folly, according to their reckoning, then and not till then he shews it to be wisdom. (For after our proofs, not before, we are best able to abash the gainsayers.)

His words then are, "Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect:" for when I, accounted foolish and a preacher of follies, get the better of the wise, I overcome wisdom, not by foollishness but by a more perfect wisdom; a wisdom, too, so ample and so much greater, that the other appears foolishness. Wherefore having before called it by a name such as they named it at that time,and having both proved his victory from the facts, and shewn the extreme foolishness of the other side: he thenceforth bestows upon it its right name, saying, "Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect." "Wisdom" is the name he gives to the Gospel, to the method of salvation, the being saved by the Cross. "The perfect," are those who believe. For indeed they are "perfect," who know all human things to be utterly helpless, and who overlook them from the conviction that by such they are profited nothing: such Were the true believers.

"But not a wisdom of this world." For where is the use of the wisdom which is without, terminating here and proceeding no further, and not even here able to profit its possessors?

Now by the "rulers of the world," here, he means not certain demons, as some suspect, but those in authority, those in power, those who esteem the thing worth contending about, philosophers, rhetoricians and writers of speeches (logografouj). For these were the dominant sort and often became leaders of the people.

"Rulers of the world" he calls them, because beyond the present world their dominion extends not. Wherefore, he adds further, "which are coming to nought;" disparaging it both on its own account, and from those who wield it. For having shewn that it is false, that it is foolish, that it can discover nothing, that it is weak, he shews moreover that it is but of short duration.

[2.] "But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery." What mystery? For surely Christ saith, (St. Matthew chapter 10, verse 27 hkousate rec. text akouete.) "What ye have heard in the ear, proclaim upon the housetops." How then does he call it "a mystery?" Because that neither angel nor archangel, nor any other created power knew of it before it actually took place. Wherefore he saith, (Ephesians chapter 3, verse 10) "That now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the Church the manifold wisdom of God." And this hath God done in honor to us, so that they not without us should hear the mysteries. For we, too, ourselves, whomsoever we make our friends, use to speak of this as a sure proof of friendship towards them, that we tell our secrets to no one in preference to them. Let those hear who expose to shame the secrets of the Gospel, and unto all indiscriminately display the "pearls" and the doctrine, and who cast "the holy things" unto "dogs," and "swine," and useless reasonings. For the Mystery wants no argumentation; but just what it is, that only is to be declared. Since it will not be a mystery, divine and whole in all its parts, when thou addest any thing to it of thyself also.

And in another sense, too, a mystery is so called; because we do not behold the things which we see, but some things we see and others we believe. For such is the nature of our Mysteries. I, for instance, feel differently upon these subjects from an unbeliever. I hear, "Christ was crucified;" and forthwith I admire His loving-kindness unto men: the other hears, and esteems it weakness. I hear, "He became a servant;" and I wonder at his care for us: the other hears, and counts it dishonor. I hear, "He died;" and am astonished at His might, that being in death He was not holden, but even broke the bands of death: the other hears, and surmises it to be helplessness. He hearing of the resurrection, saith, the thing is a legend; I, aware of the facts which demonstrate it, fall down and worship the dispensation of God. He hearing of a layer, counts it merely as water: but I behold not simply the thing which is seen, but the purification of the soul which is by the Spirit. He considers only that my body hath been washed; but I have believed that the soul also hath become both pure and holy; and I count it the sepulchre, the resurrection, the sanctification, the righteousness, the redemption, the adoption, the inheritance, the kingdom of heaven, the plenary effusion (korhgian) of the Spirit. For not by the sight do I judge of the things that appear, but by the eyes of the mind. I hear of the "Body of Christ:" in one sense I understand the expression, in another sense the unbeliever.

And just as children, looking on their books, know not the meaning of the letters, neither know what they see; yea more, if even a grown man be unskilful in letters, the same thing will befall him; but the skilful will find much meaning stored up in the letters, even complete lives and histories: and an epistle in the hands of one that is unskilful will be accounted but paper and ink; but he that knows how to read will both hear a voice, and hold converse with the absent, and will reply whatsoever he chooses by means of writing: so it is also in regard of the Mystery. Unbelievers albeit they hear, seem not to hear: but the faithful, having the skill which is by the Spirit, behold the meaning of the things stored therein. For instance, it is this very thing that Paul signified, when he said that even now the word preached is hidden: for "unto them that perish," he saith, "it is hidden." (2 Corinthians chapter 4, verse 3)

In another point of view, the word indicates also the Gospel's being contrary to all expectation. By no other name is Scripture wont to call what happens beyond all hope and above all thought of men. Wherefore also in another place, "My mystery is for Me," and for Mine. And Paul again, (2 Corinthians chapter 15, verse 51) "Behold, I shew you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

[3.] And though it be everywhere preached, still is it a mystery; for as we have been commanded, "what things we have heard in the ear, to speak upon the house tops," so have we been also charged, "not to give the holy things unto dogs nor yet to cast our pearls before swine." (St. Matthew chapter 7, verse 9) For some are carnal and do not understand: others have a veil upon their hearts and do not see: wherefore that is above all things a mystery, which everywhere is preached, but is not known of those who have not a right mind; and is revealed not by wisdom but by the Holy Ghost, so far as is possible for us to receive it. And for this cause a man would not err, who in this respect also should entitle it a mystery, the utterance whereof is forbidden. (anorrhton) For not even unto us, the faithful, hath been committed entire certainty and exactness. Wherefore Paul also said, (ch. xiii. 9.) "We know in part, and we prophesy in part: for now we see in a mirror darkly; but then face to face."

[4.] For this cause he saith, "We speak wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God fore-ordained before the worlds unto our glory. Hidden:" that is, that no one of the powers above hath learnt it before us; neither do the many know it now.

"Which he fore-ordained unto our glory" and yet, elsewhere he saith, "unto his own glory," for he considereth our salvation to be His own glory: even as also He calleth it His own riches, (vid. Ephesians chapter 3, verse 8) though He be Himself rich in good and need nothing in order that He may be rich.

"Fore-ordained," he saith, pointing out the care had of us. For so those are accounted most both to honor and to love us, whosoever shall have laid themselves out to do us good from the very beginning: which indeed is what fathers do in the case of children. For although they give not their goods until afterwards, yet at first and from the beginning they had predetermined this. And this is what Paul is earnest to point out now; that God always loved us even from the beginning and when as yet we were not. For unless He had loved us, He would not have fore-ordained our riches. Consider not then the enmity which hath come between; for more ancient than that was the friendship.

As to the words, "before the worlds," they mean eternal. For in another place also He saith thus, "Who is before the worlds." The Son also, if you mark it, will be found to be eternal in the same sense. For concerning Him he saith, (Hebrews chapter 1, verse 2) "By Him He made the worlds;" which is equivalent to subsistence before the worlds; for it is plain that the maker is before the things which are made.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Yesterday @ 03:49 PM
John Reece:



geo,

That's what I want you to do.

Well, I gave it a shot in the previous post - Pretty lazy - Just cut and paste.


Bruce is a preeminent exegetical scholar who offers pithy comment on the Greek text.

I will be very interested in your take of the difference between Bruce and Chrysostom, who wrote his commentary in Koine Greek... being a 4th Century saint of the Orthodox Church.


I have never studied Patristic commentary and am not about to start at this late stage in life

I've got this sneaking suspicion you are going to start liking Chrysostom's commentary enough to make it your first to check one, and then compare others in its light.


(I’m 70 years old and have health problems that make it very difficult for me to spend much time at the computer without experiencing significant discomfort).

I'm headed for the grave myself, though not as far along as you - I turn 60 next year - Everything is starting to hurt! [You know the drill!!]


So let’s hear from you what Chrysostom has written.

Well, what sayest thou??

geo [Arsenios - My name in Christ]

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=154230#post154230)
George Blaisdell:

I will be very interested in your take of the difference between Bruce and Chrysostom, who wrote his commentary in Koine Greek... being a 4th Century saint of the Orthodox Church.

I've got this sneaking suspicion you are going to start liking Chrysostom’s commentary enough to make it your first to check one, and then compare others in its light.

geo,

Sorry for the delay in response. I have had distracting demands on my time this morning.

Thanks for posting Chrysostom’s comments. Keep them coming!

Bruce is an exegetical scholar. Chrysostom is a preacher. The difference between them is the difference between exegesis and homily.

What we have in the online version of Chrysostom’s sermons is a translation thereof, not what Chrysostom actually wrote. I noticed the use of the word “perfect” for teleioV – not the best English word to render what Chrysostom wrote. Chrysostom meant what Paul meant: in the context of 1 Corinthians, teleioV is best rendered by the English word “mature”.

Chrysostom was an excellent preacher, and I’m happy to see translations of his sermons posted here. However, I have reached a stage in life where many words weary me. My interest is simply to find out exactly what the biblical texts say, so I still prefer brevity in exegesis to wordage in homiletics.

I very much appreciate your supplementing and complementing what I post by contributing your perspective and that of Chrysostom. We are different, and our interests are different. I think it pleases the Lord for us to share what we each have to offer.

Blessings,

John

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Yesterday @ 08:52 AM
John Reece:


geo,

Sorry for the delay in response. I have had distracting demands on my time this morning.

John, there are times in my days when if it weren't for the distractions, there would be nothing at all... One of the paradoxes of the faith is that as we acquire less and less time remaining in our lives, we acquire greater and greater patience, yes?


Thanks for posting Chrysostom’s comments. Keep them coming!

Well, given your preference for exegetical incision, rather than loquatiousness of homiletical explanation, I think I will look for concision of anything of Chrysostom I may quote such that by eliminating most of it, I might leave for you a level of concision that approaches exegetical incision...

I must say, however, that his notes on the mystery of the faith [above] were germane, for they show how it is that Christ' hanging from the cross in the agony of death is a mystery of great wonder and awe to oi teleoi, yet just another person being punished to the rest...


Bruce is an exegetical scholar. Chrysostom is a preacher. The difference between them is the difference between exegesis and homily.

Well, I think what you will find, should you decide to sniff your way past this understanding, is that the exegesis of Chrysostom is embedded within the homily, and that what is happening is a verse by verse commentary on the Pauline Epistles which he is sharing with his faithful. And more, that this was the form of commentary that the early Church practiced, and not exegesis of text, and this for the reason that theory and practice were utterly wedded in the early Church, and the idea that truth was arrived at by exegetical inference from the text is not found in the Bible. The Bereans dove into their cherished texts which they had been studying diligently for generations without seeing Christ in them, to see if the new evangellon was true, if what had been *revealed* to them was actually there, and of course, being excellent scholars, they indeed found it to be so. They did NOT discover it themselves outside of revelation.


What we have in the online version of Chrysostom’s sermons is a translation thereof, not what Chrysostom actually wrote. I noticed the use of the word “perfect” for teleioV – not the best English word to render what Chrysostom wrote. Chrysostom meant what Paul meant: in the context of 1 Corinthians, teleioV is best rendered by the English word “mature”.

Actually, he defines the word himself in the commentary [above] - For by it he is merely referring to believers - Yet how could this be, since obviously simply being a believer does not make one sin-free... And the answer lies in the early Church's understanding of baptism, which is pretty much lost in the west these days... Catechumens normally took 3 years of preparation to enter the Church by baptism, and that preparation was a kind of 'basic training' in an almost military sense, in that they were trained hard in bodily deprivations, lack of sleep, long periods of standing in vigils and prayers, fastings, hard labors, and personal prayer rules that involved hundreds of prostrations each and every day - For some over a thousand... All in preparation for baptism, for entry into the Body of Christ...

So that when they were finally baptized, they were clean... Some were baptized directly into sainthood... Others had work to do still. But all, coming out of the baptismal waters, were baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ, and were the "newly illumined." The rest of their lives, from their baptism onwards, was confirmation of that baptism, keeping clean, confessing and repenting their sins, especially those of thoughts and desires, and turned utterly from the world, giving their bodies only as much as was minimally needed for health, which became less and less as they became more and more con-firm-ed in the faith - As their hearts became more and more softened in Christ, their bodies became more and more hardened... This is mortification of the flesh, which we are commanded to do... And which as beginners, we are unable to do... This is the race set before us... Turning from the fleshy mind, putting it to death, and living unto the spiritual mind, in which we find life [energia] in Christ...

So that for these early Christians - And remember that he is not all that far out of the era of official persecutions of Christians - Indeed he was himself martyred for his opposition to upper level Church-royal miscreances - And he recorded the Divine Liturgy with which we even today conduct our worship services - So that for these Christians, to call them perfect, is perhaps by today's standards, utterly correct, and by the standards of his own time, as well, for they struggled in their comfirmation efforts, and in those struggles, maintained the purity they received in baptism into Christ, and that purity given by the Holy Spirit is itself perfect.


Chrysostom was an excellent preacher, and I’m happy to see translations of his sermons posted here. However, I have reached a stage in life where many words weary me.

Chrysostom is one of the wordiest!


My interest is simply to find out exactly what the biblical texts say, so I still prefer brevity in exegesis to wordage in homiletics.

Gottit!

For myself, I join the Ethiopian eunich, and confess that I do not know the meaning of scripture, and need it explained to me...


I very much appreciate your supplementing and complementing what I post by contributing your perspective and that of Chrysostom. We are different, and our interests are different. I think it pleases the Lord for us to share what we each have to offer.

Well, thank you for your graciousness - And I promise not to bury you with an all too easily cut and pasted avalanche of words by the good 4th century saint!

geo

[John Reece]

Thanks, geo!

I just got my computer back from a 3 day stay in the local Gateway Country Store repair shop, so I'm playing catchup right now.

Do continue to post Chrysostom's commentary. I am interested and appreciate your comments as well.

Blessings,

John

[John Reece]

Philippians 2

Christ's Example of Humility

1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (stauroV). 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

From The Epistle to the Philippians (NIGTC), by Peter T. O’Brien (Eerdmans, 1991):

stauroV and its cognates, which turn up some eighteen other times in Paul (stauroV: 1 Cor. 1:17, 18; Gal. 6:12, 14; Eph. 2:16; Phil. 3:18; Col. 1:20; 2:14; staurow: 1 Cor. 1:13, 23, 2:2, 8; 2 Cor. 13:4; Gal. 3:1; 5:24; 6:14; and sustaurow: Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:19) draw attention to some aspect of the saving significance of Jesus’ death. Accordingly, it is generally concluded that stauroV is to be read here at Phil. 2:8 in the same way; that is, the term gives concrete expression to the saving significance of Jesus’ death. However, if this is true, then it is not the saving significance as such that receives the stress, for the central concern of the passage has been to set forth what Christ’s obedience meant for him, not for us, that is, it meant condescension, humiliation, death, and finally exhaultation.

[John Reece]

Philippians 3

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk (peripatousin) as enemies of the cross (stauroV) of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (ESV)

From The Epistle to the Philippians (NIGTC), by Peter T. O’Brien (Eerdmans, 1991):

The presence of peripatousin in the first clause indicates that it was the behavior of these people that made them ‘the enemies of the cross of Christ’ . . . – and this is confirmed by the further descriptions in v. 19 – rather than that they opposed the doctrine of the saving significance of the cross. In other words, it was by their manner of life that they spurned the cross of Christ and did not accept its implications for their daily living (cf. v. 10) . . . Perhaps there is the additional point that, unlike Paul, they were not prepared to participate in Christ’s sufferings or be conformed to his death in their day-to-day experience (cf. v. 10). And if this were so, then finally it would have to be concluded that they did not truly ‘know Christ’ in an intimate, personal way at all.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 05:40 PM
John Reece:

Philippians 3

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk (peripatousin) as enemies of the cross (stauroV) of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (ESV)

From The Epistle to the Philippians (NIGTC), by Peter T. O’Brien (Eerdmans, 1991):

The presence of peripatousin in the first clause indicates that it was the behavior of these people that made them ‘the enemies of the cross of Christ’ . . . – and this is confirmed by the further descriptions in v. 19 – rather than that they opposed the doctrine of the saving significance of the cross. In other words, it was by their manner of life that they spurned the cross of Christ and did not accept its implications for their daily living (cf. v. 10) . . . Perhaps there is the additional point that, unlike Paul, they were not prepared to participate in Christ’s sufferings or be conformed to his death in their day-to-day experience (cf. v. 10). And if this were so, then finally it would have to be concluded that they did not truly ‘know Christ’ in an intimate, personal way at all.

"Their god is their belly..."

Do you think he is talking about appetitious living? That no matter how correct we get the talk, we still have to walk the walk? And what is this 'walk' such that "they were not prepared to participate in Christ’s sufferings or be conformed to his death in their day-to-day experience"??? Were they preferring 10 hours of sleep? Big Mac with fries? A nice soft mattress? Massages at the baths?

Early reports in pagan [Greek] culture about Christians in those first years were that they were a pretty dirty and smelly and ragged bunch...

Now that I think about it, I may have hope yet!!

geo

[John Reece]

George,

Yes.

I wouldn't put too much stock in what pagans reportedly said about Christians - in any century - even if there is some truth in it :smile: .

Blessings,

John

[John Reece]

Colossians 1

The Preeminence of Christ

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross (stauroV). (ESV)

From Calvin’s Commentary (translated by T. H. L. Parker, 1965):

Making peace through the blood of his cross. He says of the Father, that He is propitious to His creatures through the blood of Christ. Now he calls it ‘the blood of the cross’, because the pledge and price of our reconciliation with God was the blood of Christ, which was poured out on the cross. For the Son of God had to become an expiatory victim and endure the punishment of sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. The blood of the cross, therefore, means the blood of the sacrifice which was offered upon the cross for appeasing the anger of God.

In adding ‘by him’, he did not mean to say anything new, but to express more distinctly what he had previously stated, and to impress it still more deeply on our minds, that Christ alone is the Author of reconciliation, and therefore excludes all other means. For no one else has been crucified for us. Hence it is He alone by whom and for whose sake we have God propitious to us.

[John Reece]

Colossians 2

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross (stauroV). 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (ESV)

From Calvin’s Commentary:

Took it out of the way, fastening it to his cross. He shows how Christ effaced the hand-writing. For as He fastened to the cross our curse, our sins and also the punishment due to us, so also that bondage of the law and everything else that tends to bind consciences. For when he was fastened to the cross, He took all the things to Himself and tied them to Him, so that they might have no more power over us.

[John Reece]

Hebrews 12

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (ESV)

From The Epistle to the Hebrews, by F. F. Bruce (Eerdmans, 1964):

Not only is Jesus the pioneer of faith; in Him faith has reached its perfection. “He trusts in God,” they said as they stood by His cross; the implication was: “Much good His trust in God is doing Him now!” The words, though not their implication, were truer than they knew. The whole life of Jesus was characterized by unbroken and unquestioning faith in His heavenly Father, and never more so than when in Gethsemane He committed Himself to His Father’s hands for the ordeal of the cross with the words: “not what I will, but what thou wilt” (Mark 14:46). It was sheer faith in God, unsupported by any visible or tangible evidence, that carried Him through the taunting, the scourging, the crucifying, and the more bitter agony of rejection, desertion and dereliction. “Come down from the cross, and we will believe,” they said. Had He come down, by some gesture of supernatural power, He would never have been hailed as the “perfecter of faith” nor would He have left any practical example for others to follow.

No; He “endured the cross, despising shame”. To die by crucifixion was to plumb the lowest depths of disgrace; it was a punishment reserved for those who were deemed of all men most unfit to live, a punishment for sub-men. From so degrading a death Roman citizens were exempt by ancient statute; the dignity of the Roman name would be besmirched by being brought into association with anything so vile as the cross. For slaves, and criminals of low degree, it was regarded as a suitable means of execution, and a grim deterrent to others. But this disgrace Jesus disregarded, as something not worthy to be taken into account when it was a question of his obedience to the will of God. So He brought faith to perfection by His endurance of the cross – and now the place of highest exaltation is His. The pioneer of salvation has been made perfect through sufferings, and has therefore taken His seat “at the right hand of the throne of God”. His exaltation there, with all that it means for His people’s well-being and for the triumph of God’s purpose in the universe, is “the joy that was set before Him”, for the sake of which He submitted to shame and death.

It is not difficult to trace an affinity between the joy of which our author speaks here and the joy to which Jesus Himself makes a repeated reference in the upper room discourses of the Fourth Gospel. He tells His disciples there of His desire that His joy may be in them, so that their joy may be complete (John 15:11; cf. 16:20, 21, 22, 24); and in His high-priestly prayer He asks the Father “that they may have my joy made full in themselves” (John 17:15). So here, “the joy that was set before him” is not something for Himself alone, but something to be shared with those for whom He died as sacrifice and lives as high priest. The throne of God, to which He has been exalted, is the place to which He has gone as His people’s forerunner. That is the goal of the pathway of faith; the Pioneer has reached it first, but others who triumph in the same contest will share it with Him. Our author would have found himself in perfect sympathy with the terms of the promise given to the Laodicean church in Revelation 3:21 : He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my Father’s throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.”

[John Reece]

Revelation 11

The Two Witnesses

1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. (ESV)

The last lexical listing for this thread brings us to the book of Revelation.

I have many commentaries on Revelation on my bookshelves, from Moses Stuart’s The Apocalypse (London: Wiley and Putnam, 1845) to G. K. Beale’s The Book of Revelation (NIGTC; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999), so I am aware of many contrary comments.

However, this is my thread and my post, so I have selected the comment regarding this occurrence of staurow that makes most sense to me.

From Biblical Apocalyptics, by Milton S. Terry (New York: Eaton and Mains, 1898):

The great city – The same great city as mentioned in 14:8; 16:19; 17:5, 18. Called spiritually – A indicating its spiritual or moral character. Sodom and Egypt – A double name employed symbolically to designate the great city under description as characterized by what the words Sodom and Egypt would most naturally suggest to a Jewish mind. Those words in biblical history are synonymous with flagrant wickedness and oppressive persecution. In Genesis 18 and 19 we read of the enormous sin of Sodom, that cried to heaven for judgment, and the whole story of the exodus of Israel out of Egypt shows the bitter oppression of that “house of bondage.” In Isaiah 1:10, the prophet addresses the leaders of the Jewish people of Jerusalem as “rulers of Sodom.” In Jeremiah 23:14, the prophets of Jerusalem and all the people are said to be unto God as Sodom and Gomorrah. In Ezekiel 16:46-52, Jerusalem is charged with corruptions and sins even worse than those of Sodom. Egypt figures frequently in the Old Testament as the house of bondage and the seat of abominable idolatry (Exod. 1:13, 14; 13:3; 20:2; Deut. 15:15; 43:12, 13; 46:25; Ezek. 20:7; 23:3, 8). No more suitable names, therefore, could have been employed , spiritually, to designate that great city upon which Jesus charged the crimes specified in Matthew 23:34-37; Luke 13:34. Compare also Acts 7:52. But, to put the matter beyond all question, it is further added that the city in which the witnesses were exposed to shame was the same city where also their Lord was crucified. There is only one city that comes to mind at this specific statement, and that answers perfectly to the description of this verse. Jesus himself said to his disciples “the he must go unto Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed” (Matt. 16:21; 20:18; Mark 10:23; Luke 17:31). It was he who said, “It cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:33). It was the people of Jerusalem that madly cried, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matt. 27:25). In view of these statements and the well-known facts it is a remarkable exhibition of partisan pleading to allege, as does Alford (Greek Testament, in loco), that Christ “was crucified, not in, but outside the city, and by the hands, not of Jews, but of Romans!” And yet this expositor, and others who like him have much to say about our duty to be governed by the obvious import of the language of Scripture, can thus presume to nullify the statement that Jerusalem was the place where the Lord was crucified, and insist that this “great city” must be understood of some unnamed and unknown city, “which will be the subject of God’s final judgments.” And Lange can gravely write that the city where the Lord was crucified (estaurwqh) means a “divine establishment, embracing Church and State, as a mock-holy fallen theocracy!” (Commentary, in loco.)

One chief trouble with interpreters who try to explain away this obvious reference to Jerusalem it that they consider it impossible to identify “this great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,” with the “holy city” of verse 2. These, they insist, cannot be the same. But others will incline to think that half the ingenuity employed on their own visionary expositions of the place where the Lord was crucified might have shown them that, in strict accord with Old Testament usage, both designations suit Jerusalem. How is it that Isaiah could call this same Jerusalem a “faithful city” and a “harlot” in one breath? The answer is very simple: Once “righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers (Isa. 1:21). Similarly Jeremiah speaks in chapter 2:20. The simple fact is that in verses 2 and 8 of this chapter Jerusalem is viewed in different relations. The mention in the first instance of “the temple of God and the alter and them that worship therein,” as measured off for preservation (compare 2 Sam. 8:2), made it proper in that connection to speak of the city that was about to be trodden down by the nations as “the holy city,” for he is contemplating it there as a place of hallowed associations about to be ruined. The wickedness of the city does not in that connection come into view at all, but rather the destruction of a venerable shrine. Hence the designation of the city is naturally and properly like that of Isa. 64:10, 11, where the prophet cries : “Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. Our holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised Thee, is burned up with fire, and all our pleasant things are laid waste.” Furthermore, in verses 1 and 2 of this chapter the thought is primarily directed to that reserved and chosen remnant out of whom God is to build a new Jerusalem, and hence there is a touch of pathos in the accompanying allusion to the desecration of “the holy city.” But after the description of the death of the Two Witnesses and the shameful exposure of their dead bodies, and in immediate connection therewith, the place and people guilty of their blood may well be called Sodom and Egypt. That “great city” was enormously great in wickedness and doomed to a judgment of retribution for “all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias (Matt. 23:35). A city or a people is great or small in proportion to its importance from the prophet’s point of view.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

 και το πτωμα αυτων επι της πλατεις της πολεως της μεγαλης
ητις καλειται πνευματικως Σοδομα και Αιγυπτος, 
 οπου και ο κυριος αυτων εσταυρωθη. 

The KJV [exigetically?] transalates αυτων  as "our" Lord, perhaps thinking that this better preserves the meaning, yet clearly it is "their" Lord in the Greek.

And the implication is that they were granted to die and be brought back to life after three and a half days in the very same city as their Lord, [Who we pray is our Lord, yes?], Who was himself killed and buried, and was risen on the third day...

The two αυτων 's in this passage refer to the same two prophets. They are obviously third person plurals, genitives of possession.

geo

[John Reece]

George,

The KJV translates a weakly supported textual variant (hmwn) instead of autwn.

Blessings,

John

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 07:48 AM
John Reece:

George,

The KJV translates a weakly supported textual variant (hmwn) instead of autwn.

Blessings,

John

Indeed so - And it can so easily be argued that it makes virtually NO difference - That epexegetically, both IMPLY each other... So that the one is the same as the other. And that if it is a big deal to someone that HMWN or AUTWN is used, that either could be substituted for the other. Yet the text is AUTWN, for this is how these prophets are glorified by their God, and the god of those who hate them, and who rejoice at their deaths, is not their God. They both glorify and are glorified by THEIR God, in the face of the god of this world...

So how you like my Greek posting? I upped the size - Would bold be better?

geo

[John Reece]

George,

Your Greek posting looks fine to me. No need for bold.

Blessings,

John