Legalism Versus Licensiousness: How Do You Find the Middle Ground?

[Teallaura]

I've been thinking about this one lately - we're given a great freedom as Christians, but we have a horrible track record of taking things to one extreme or the other. We are either ridiculously strict or insanely permissive.

So, what are some of your thoughts on the matter?

[themuzicman]

Becoming a Christian means a change in worldview.

If we look closer at James 2, looking for the ethical requirements rather than the faith vs. works, we find that our faith is the key to your answer.

If we believe that Christ is our savior, then our life will refelct this in how we love one another and how we love God. Thus, we don't refrain from adultery because the law says so, but because we love one another. We don't refrain from using God's name in vain because the law says so, but because we love God.

Now, sanctification is the transformation that takes place from the old worldview of the world to the new worldview of the Christian, so we struggle (old man -> new man) to understand what this new worldview is all about and how to live in it.

But Christ gave us the key to living a righteous life as we follow His command: Love one another as I have loved you.

Michael

[Ryokan]

I've been thinking about this one lately - we're given a great freedom as Christians, but we have a horrible track record of taking things to one extreme or the other. We are either ridiculously strict or insanely permissive.

So, what are some of your thoughts on the matter?
I am trying to think of insanely permissive Christian groups, organizations, or govs, and with the exception of a couple communes or Utopian groups in the last 2 centuries, I got nothin'. This isn't a bad thing, necessarilly, (well, in my mind, legalistic government's dumb, but if a Church or org doesn't demand a certain standard, then how is it even Christian?) but if we lean towards an end, its definitely legalism.

[David_A_Reed]

I think the key is to keep focus on the Bible as the standard for ethics. It covers all the bases.

David

[themuzicman]

I think the key is to keep focus on the Bible as the standard for ethics. It covers all the bases.

David
She wants to avoid legalism, not find a new form of it...

[Ryokan]

She wants to avoid legalism, not find a new form of it...
I think you had it best that if we love God and love our neighbors, we may make mistakes, but we will be focused in the right place.

[Teallaura]

I am trying to think of insanely permissive Christian groups, organizations, or govs, and with the exception of a couple communes or Utopian groups in the last 2 centuries, I got nothin'. This isn't a bad thing, necessarilly, (well, in my mind, legalistic government's dumb, but if a Church or org doesn't demand a certain standard, then how is it even Christian?) but if we lean towards an end, its definitely legalism.

*emphasis mine

Perhaps - but search under Metropolitan Church if you want insanely permissive.

I tend to agree here. Following Christ does involve a change in behavior as brought on by a change of heart - and there is a standard to which we should be held - Christ's own. Doesn't mean that we won't ever fall short - or that we shouldn't be forgiving toward those who do (legalism at its worst) - but if you can't see the goalpost, how ya ever gonna score?

[Ryokan]

*emphasis mine

Perhaps - but search under Metropolitan Church if you want insanely permissive. Yeah. But their alot more super legalistic churches than these guys.

I tend to agree here. Following Christ does involve a change in behavior as brought on by a change of heart - and there is a standard to which we should be held - Christ's own. Doesn't mean that we won't ever fall short - or that we shouldn't be forgiving toward those who do (legalism at its worst) - but if you can't see the goalpost, how ya ever gonna score?[/QUOTE]
I think we agree, then. Unless I'm wrong?

[Shadow Phoenix]

*emphasis mine

Perhaps - but search under Metropolitan Church if you want insanely permissive.

I tend to agree here. Following Christ does involve a change in behavior as brought on by a change of heart - and there is a standard to which we should be held - Christ's own. Doesn't mean that we won't ever fall short - or that we shouldn't be forgiving toward those who do (legalism at its worst) - but if you can't see the goalpost, how ya ever gonna score?

I know someone on PAL who said he goes to this church.

Anyhow, I like what Augustine said and later Luther said as well. "Love God and live as you please."

[Teallaura]

Yeah. But their alot more super legalistic churches than these guys.

I think we agree, then. Unless I'm wrong?

I don't know about that - some churches you'd think were conservative have some pretty permissive ideas - but as I said, you could be right on that point. I just offered an example beyond yours, is all.

Yes, I believe we are in agreement. :thumb:

[Amazing Rando]

One point of extreme irony is that in modern times, Christians have come to be perceived as the dogmatic, narrow legalists, while in Jesus and Paul were criticized by their contemporaries for their seemingly antinomian permissiveness when compared to the surrounding society.

[Amazing Rando]

I know someone on PAL who said he goes to this church.

Anyhow, I like what Augustine said and later Luther said as well. "Love God and live as you please."

I don't. "Live as you please" sounds a bit too much like the Wiccan credo of "do what you will, but do no harm." Luther's zealous "rediscovery" of justification by grace through faith led him to react far too strongly against the prevailing legalism of his day in favor of a sloppy and haphazard approach to ethical concerns. Indeed I think it could be fairly said of Luther that he had an almost callous disregard for serious ethical considerations in light of the gospel. That was one of the main reasons Erasmus chose to enter into debate with him over free will/salvation that I wrote about in my Feature Member Article a few months back. I certainly wouldn't trust one whose attitude was, "Sin Boldly!" for pithy sayings about Christian morality.

[Thomas2003]

I've been thinking about this one lately - we're given a great freedom as Christians, but we have a horrible track record of taking things to one extreme or the other. We are either ridiculously strict or insanely permissive.

So, what are some of your thoughts on the matter?


I believe Christians are given a great responsibility - the freedom that accompanies this responsibility requires maturity. I think most Christians are in a revolt against maturity - they want Christian liberty but little to do with Christian responsibility. Most want to have a Christian theology but a humanist philosophy and refuse to think, let alone live, consistently. Many theological rubrics cubes are created to cloud the issue and allow the conscience to avoid or pragmatically dispense the need for repentance which I think is what creates this wide swing you are mentioning.

[Thomas2003]

Becoming a Christian means a change in worldview.

If we look closer at James 2, looking for the ethical requirements rather than the faith vs. works, we find that our faith is the key to your answer.

If we believe that Christ is our savior, then our life will refelct this in how we love one another and how we love God. Thus, we don't refrain from adultery because the law says so, but because we love one another. We don't refrain from using God's name in vain because the law says so, but because we love God.

Yeah, well, this is a lot of whats wrong. Love is fulfilling the law. You should not be committing adultery because the law forbids it and God is Lord of your conscience - not because your emotional and pietistic "love" is the measure of fidelity. We have well over a 50% divorce rate even among Christians because they subscribe to antinomian conceptions of life or the Jesus "love broker" concept.

Now, sanctification is the transformation that takes place from the old worldview of the world to the new worldview of the Christian, so we struggle (old man -> new man) to understand what this new worldview is all about and how to live in it.

But Christ gave us the key to living a righteous life as we follow His command: Love one another as I have loved you.

Michael

You do that by carrying out the Ten Commandments in their entirety.

[Thomas2003]

She wants to avoid legalism, not find a new form of it...


I think this is one of the big misunderstandings - there is nothing "legalistic" about the Bible. Legalism, as it is condemned in the New Testament, is against Judaism - not the Old Testament. It is against the Law as mediator - not the law as law. Indeed, Paul concludes - by faith we establish the law. This is not some fuzzy pietism but fulfillment of the laws spiritual intent, to expose sin and root it out.

Legalism is the attempt to create the law of God into ones mediator - to perver the law into something it isn't nor intended to be - hence, salvation becomes politically mediated. This has nothing to do with the Old Testament, but the Jews imposition of paganism in Biblical terminology.

[MrTulip]

I've been thinking about this one lately - we're given a great freedom as Christians, but we have a horrible track record of taking things to one extreme or the other. We are either ridiculously strict or insanely permissive.

So, what are some of your thoughts on the matter?

There is no middle ground. Sin is sin. Righteousness is righteousness.

[Timothy]

There is no middle ground. Sin is sin. Righteousness is righteousness.

I wish I could be just like you. I wish I could decide that I'm not going to sin anymore, and then never sin again. I can't. Do I misunderstand you? I have to keep going back to Christ for forgiveness again and again. It seems as though He is saying "Who condemns you? Neither do I condemn you, Now go and sin no more."

Then in a little while I need to go back to Him for more forgiveness. I'm to the point I just cry out in desperation, "Lord! I can't do it!" And then I imagine He would say "My grace is sufficient for you."

And I love God all the more for that.

Tim

[MrTulip]

I wish I could be just like you. I wish I could decide that I'm not going to sin anymore, and then never sin again. I can't. Do I misunderstand you? I have to keep going back to Christ for forgiveness again and again. It seems as though He is saying "Who condemns you? Neither do I condemn you, Now go and sin no more."

Then in a little while I need to go back to Him for more forgiveness. I'm to the point I just cry out in desperation, "Lord! I can't do it!" And then I imagine He would say "My grace is sufficient for you."

And I love God all the more for that.

Tim

Yes, you misunderstand me. My statement has nothing to do with not sinning any more, asking God for forgiveness, or condemnation. It is simply a statement regarding ultimate truth and its absoluteness.

But then again perhaps I misunderstand because of an accidental quote of what I said in the thread and you are responding to someone else.

[Timothy]

Thanks MrTulip,

I think we are in agreement. My response was too quick because of what I thought you meant. I thought you meant that since we know what the law is, its a simple matter to follow it.

Tim