to teleion in I Corinthians 13:10

[Gavin]

What do you believe it is referring to and why?

[Dee Dee Warren]

I am sure... yet to be convinced. I think good cases can be made for all three.

[John Reece]

Number 3 (the maturity of the Church).

Because that's the purpose of ta pneumatika as presented by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12-14, and the purpose of charismata as presented by Paul in the related text of Ephesians 4, regarding which see posts # 1, 2, and 5 on this thread:

http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2455

[Jaltus]

Number 1, due to the context:

12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


The difference between the "then" and the "and now" (which should be "but now" since it is NUNI DE) points to an eschatological fulfillment.

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147520#post147520)
Jaltus:

Number 1, due to the context:

12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


The difference between the "then" and the "and now" (which should be "but now" since it is NUNI DE) points to an eschatological fulfillment.

Yes, it does point to an eschatological fulfillment. But if it is only the perfection that is in heaven, why the teleological process of the maturation of the Body of Christ inherent in the contexts of 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4?

Is andra teleion in Ephesians 4 also a reference to the perfection of heaven?

[Jaltus]

Today @ 12:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147538#post147538)
John Reece:
Yes, it does point to an eschatological fulfillment. But if it is only the perfection that is in heaven, why the teleological process of the maturation of the Body of Christ inherent in the contexts of 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4?

Is andra teleion in Ephesians 4 also a reference to the perfection of heaven?

No, I think Ephesians 4 is talking about something different, and part of the reason for that is the use of andra with teleioV. Such a distinction gives an inflected meaning, a specific meaning, whereas in I Corinthians we do not have such a usage in the context of 13 (though in 14:20 it would seem like we do due to the use of frhsin).

I would argue that 13 has something different in mind, for it is difficult to miss the eschatological flavor of the passage as a whole. However, I could be wrong, and have been before.

[John Reece]

Jaltus,

I would emend my concurrence with your use of the word “eschatological”. The word I would use is “teleological”, which is a sense which is present both in the contexts of 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4, as well as in the word teleion itself.

I have been marinating my mind in the Greek texts of these scriptures for decades. I have no interest in debating anything with anyone, and I too am always aware that I could be wrong about anything I may think.

However, it seems clear to me that there is something about 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4 that no one has yet comprehended - and maybe no one will ever comprehend until we all get to heaven :smile:; but I think 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4 are about more than getting to heaven: I think they are about God’s agenda for the Body of Christ in this world.

Blessings,

John

[Jaltus]

John,

I totally agree, I just happen to think that this specific portion of I Corinthians 13 is dealing with the eschaton as well.

[John Reece]

Today @ 09:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147625#post147625)
Jaltus:

John,

I totally agree, I just happen to think that this specific portion of I Corinthians 13 is dealing with the eschaton as well.

Yes, I totally agree with you on that point, if by "eschaton" you mean the ultimate consummation of what God is now doing in the Body of Christ in history.

If not not . . . :cheers:

[Ric]

Today @ 10:54 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147441#post147441)
Gavin:

What do you believe it is referring to and why?

It seems to me to understand teleion in verse 10 to mean that "perfection" is to come about at the Second Coming, or, if before, when the Christian dies and is taken to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-10). This is true in both 1 Corinthians 1:8; 15:24 and in James 5:11; Revelation 20:5, 7; 21:6; 22:13. :read: :solly:

[Gavin]

Ric, I would agree entirely what you just wrote, and that is largely what I mean by "perfection in heaven." I just use that title to avoid any preterist battles from coming into play when they are unnecessary. Sorry if my terminology was poor.

John, is the perfect itself the maturity of the body, or does it merely bring the maturity of the body to consumation? Both account for the context of the maturing body of Christ, and I would argue the latter fits in better with the strength of the contrast in verse 12. Your thoughts?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 07:54 AM
Gavin queries:

What do you believe it is referring to and why?

Did anyone simply say that it refers to the age [aeona] to come?

We confess "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

Why get into all this talk of eschaton, and eschatological, and great scholarly opinions? We only receive but an earnest now, but in the age to come, the full reality... "And the first heaven and the first earth are passed away..."

geo

[RevSteve45]

I think it is actually referring to a COUPLE of things:

1. When we get to Heaven, we will no longer need the gifts of the Spirit. Their purpose shall have been served, i.e. to help to perfect, teach & edify the Body of Christ.

2. After the Second Coming of Christ, when His Kingdom is set up on earth, the need for spiritual gifts will have been done away with. The Kingdom of God will be "that which is perfect." The purpose of spiritual gifts shall have been served.

In His Service,
Steve

[Ric]

Sorry, but can you rephrase the second half of your statement.


Today @ 09:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147731#post147731)
Gavin:

Ric, I would agree entirely what you just wrote, and that is largely what I mean by "perfection in heaven." I just use that title to avoid any preterist battles from coming into play when they are unnecessary. Sorry if my terminology was poor.

John, is the perfect itself the maturity of the body, or does it merely bring the maturity of the body to consumation? Both account for the context of the maturing body of Christ, and I would argue the latter fits in better with the strength of the contrast in verse 12. Your thoughts?

[John Reece]

Today @ 02:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=147731#post147731)
Gavin:

John, is the perfect itself the maturity of the body, or does it merely bring the maturity of the body to consumation? Both account for the context of the maturing body of Christ, and I would argue the latter fits in better with the strength of the contrast in verse 12. Your thoughts?

Gavin,

I do not understand your question.

John

[adam.naranjo]

I tend to believe that the teleion speaks of the maturity of the Body -- in a way. Not a progressive maturity, so to speak, but rather time of consumation -- when the KINGDOM comes and the NEW COVENANT is FULLY and FINALLY CONSUMATED ON EARTH following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70a.d. This is 'the perfect'. (obviously preterist) It marked the end of prophecy - not its fullfillment - but the end of God giving prophecy.

I think that a lot of the N.T. is looking forward to this time frame, as a time of promise and future for the church, and this may well be what paul had in mind.
ps...im not here to argue this point. its just the best interpretation I see. I just wanted to mention it.

[John Reece]

Jaltus,

I sincerely wish to know: What do you mean by "the eschaton"?

One reason the manifestation of Christ from within His Body has made more sense to me than the traditional view is that I cannot imagine multiple millions of people seeing an individual Jesus face to face (1 Corinthian 13:12): it is not physically possible.

A related thought has to do with the literal interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, "... then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I can imagine that happening in the Middle East in the first century. But my mind is boggled by the idea of millions of people on opposite sides of the globe rising up to meet the Lord in the air.

How do you understand such things?

Blessings

John

[Jaltus]

Hmmm, I think this thread is turning quickly.

I think the eschaton is all time after the final judgment (at least in this context). I think Jesus could see us all face to face in eternity, for He will have an eternity (not to mention seeing us face-to-face at the White Throne Judgment) to greet us.

As for Thessalonians, God could easily raise us all to meet Him at one point in the air. If Superman can fly around the world, why couldn't Christ summon us around the world? That seems an unnecessary limitation upon God's power.

As for seeing Him face to face above the Middle East, when did this happen? There were no reported missing people in that time, just a lot of dead people. Christians had already been leaving ther area, so it is quite difficult for me to truly swallow that a large number of Christians were caught up in the air in 70 AD without anybody seeing it.

[Gavin]

Sorry my questions were unclear guys I will try to reword them when I get a chance. For now, its off to snooze . . . . :yipee:

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=148175#post148175)
Jaltus:

. . . .As for seeing Him face to face above the Middle East, when did this happen? There were no reported missing people in that time, just a lot of dead people. Christians had already been leaving ther area, so it is quite difficult for me to truly swallow that a large number of Christians were caught up in the air in 70 AD without anybody seeing it.

No, no, no!

I did not refer to any such thing actually happening. I was comparing in my imagination the differences between a world in which many millions of Christians inhabit the entire globe, and a world in which a relatively small number of Christians are limited to a relatively small geographic area.

[Solly]

Is it not the case that "perfect" often refers to maturity in the NT writers? Does it not link in with what Paul is saying in the next verse, about becoming a "man" not a "child" But overall, the eschatological element is the controlling issue:
they shall fail
they shall cease
it shall vanish away
when that which is perfect is come
but then
but then

but now...

So that I think there is a link with Eph 4.13 (and perhaps Col 1.28), - also an eschatological reference because both are addressing the mature (perfect) man in Christ, - of which we have foretastes now; we are growing up in Him after all.

slly5

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=148175#post148175)
Jaltus:

I think the eschaton is all time after the final judgment (at least in this context). I think Jesus could see us all face to face in eternity, for He will have an eternity (not to mention seeing us face-to-face at the White Throne Judgment) to greet us.

Thanks, Jaltus.



As for Thessalonians, God could easily raise us all to meet Him at one point in the air. If Superman can fly around the world, why couldn't Christ summon us around the world? That seems an unnecessary limitation upon God's power.

Multple millions of supermen at one point in the air . . . :smile: .

It isn't the potential of God's power that boggles my mind. It's literalistic interpretations of what is not literally possible.

Note: I did not say "not possible".

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 04:35 AM
Solly:

Is it not the case that "perfect" often refers to maturity in the NT writers? Does it not link in with what Paul is saying in the next verse, about becoming a "man" not a "child" But overall, the eschatological element is the controlling issue:
they shall fail
they shall cease
it shall vanish away
when that which is perfect is come
but then
but then

but now...

So that I think there is a link with Eph 4.13 (and perhaps Col 1.28), - also an eschatological reference because both are addressing the mature (perfect) man in Christ, - of which we have foretastes now; we are growing up in Him after all.

slly5

I agree, Solly... Great signature, btw.

The issue is 'charity' [love: agaph] - And why it is superior to all the others, and the reason for its superiority is its fulness, its vastly superior likeness to to telion, for all others are in part, and will fall away, but Love abides... And it is more difficult to get all hung up on ego when living a self sacrificing life of loving others as self... It has humility built in, whereas prophesy, for instance, does not...

geo

[John Reece]

Among quite a number of things the context of teleion in 1 Corinthians 13 has in common with the context of teleion in Ephesians 4 is a contrast between nhpioV (an immature child) and anhr (a mature man).

A major difference between immature children and mature men has to do with what psychologists call “concrete” thinking: an inability to think in terms of symbolism, which is characteristic of children but not of mature men.

For instance, when a child hears, “Let Jesus come into your heart”, the child thinks in terms of the heart pumping blood in the body. A child once asked my wife (who was directing a church kindergarten) “How can Jesus get in my heart with all that blood in there?”

As Christians become more mature in Christ, they become more capable of comprehending biblical symbolism in a way that is faithful to God and to the truth of His Word.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Today @ 12:30 PM
John Reece:

Among quite a number of things the context of teleion in 1 Corinthians 13 has in common with the context of teleion in Ephesians 4 is a contrast between nepioV (an immature child) and anhr (a mature man).

A major difference between immature children and mature men has to do with what psychologists call “concrete” thinking: an inability to think in terms of symbolism, which is characteristic of children but not of mature men.

For instance, when a child hears, “Let Jesus come into your heart”, the child thinks in terms of the heart pumping blood in the body. A child once asked my wife (who was directing a church kindergarten) “How can Jesus get in my heart with all that blood in there?”

As Christians become more mature in Christ, they become more capable of comprehending biblical symbolism in a way that is faithful to God and to the truth of His Word.

And especially:
<>>A major difference between immature children and mature men has to do with what psychologists call “concrete” thinking: an inability to think in terms of symbolism, which is characteristic of children but not of mature men.<<>

Hey, John -

You have touched on an important issue regarding 'maturity', for indeed you are one up from the 'verbal literal' meaning of the text, in that you are seeing the symbolic/analogical meanings - The par-excellance of these being the parable...

Yet what Paul means here, I should think, is the spiritual-literal meaning of the scripture, and this is not to be apprehended by intellect, nor by imagination, but by entry into heaven, by purification of the heart. "Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall SEE God... " Thus the meaning of words at that level is what is experienced by those with pure hearts [a purified conscience is another way of saying a similar thing], who have been given the grace to see the things of God, "[some] of which it is unlawful to speak..." [Paul].

So that purification of the heart is the key to this idea of teleios [perfection or maturity], and this is accomplished only by those who have had enough time and askesis to have purged [catharsis] their sinful tendencies thoroughly from their hearts, from which both good and evils come forth.

This is why Paul tells the Corinthians [I think it was, but maybe the Gallatians - I forget who...] that he has much to teach them, but that they are not yet ABLE TO RECEIVE his teaching... They are not sufficiently pure of heart, not having repented enough, in great enough askesis, purging their hearts of evil by challenging themselves enough in turning from the world of 3 meals a day, [preferably McDonald's Happy Meals], 8 solid hours sleep, nice warm houses, comfy threads, cool choos, and fast cars... :smile:

iow, they had not yet reached a great enough degree of self denial in their following of Christ, so that they had not yet the purity of heart needed to be taught directly in Spirit, and hence know what Paul might be talking about, and how to do what he might instruct, for they had not yet the ability to "go there"... ["Where do You abide Lord?"... "Come and see..." Which was a tribute to the cleansing of the heart in repentance taught by John the Baptist, yes? They were able to do that... And they remained there awhile.]

So that the symbolic level of things is for us all, except the little kiddies, of course, and the mature in faith are those with very repentively cleansed hearts...

Until Orthodoxy, I had no frame of reference to understand Paul saying "You are not YET able..." It is clearly a reference to penitential discipline of ascetic self-denial, without which we are unable to be following Christ... [called picking up one's daily cross, after denying oneself, and then following Christ. The picking up on one's cross is the ACTION of self denial, and is askesis...]

Nice to 'see' you here, John...

geo [Arsenios]

[John Reece]

Thanks, George.


This is why Paul tells the Corinthians that he has much to teach them, but that they are not yet ABLE TO RECEIVE his teaching...

That sounds like this:

John 16

12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

The maturity referred to in 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 is essentially related to the maturing of individual Christians. But that is not the focus of teleion in either context. The focus of teleion in both 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 is the corporate Christ referred to in 1 Corinthians 12:12 and Ephesians 4:13.

1 Corinthians 12

One Body with Many Members

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. (ESV)

From A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (ICC), by Archibald Robertson and Alfred Plummer:

12. panta de ta melh. ‘While all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is the Christ,’ in whose Nature they share, in whom they all form one body (v. 27), and whom they all serve (v. 5). From one point of view Christ is the Head, but that is not the thought here. Here He is the whole Body, as being that which unites the members and makes them an organic whole. We might have had outwV kai h ekklhsia, for Christ or the Church is only on Body with many members. The superfluous tou swmatoV after ta melh emphasizes the idea of unity; and some texts make this still more emphatic by interpolating tou enoV after tou swmatoV. The human body is a unique illustration of unity in diversity. In Ephesians and Colossians to swma has become a common designation of the Church.

Ephesians 4

11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, [i]for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood (eiV andra teleion = to a mature Man” {NB: singular}, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (ESV)

From The Epistles to the Ephesians and to the Colossians (ICC), by T. K. Abbott:

13. mecri katanthswmen oi panteV eiV thn enothta thV pistewV kai thV epignwsewV to uiou tou qeou eiV andra teleion, eiV metron hlikiaV to plhrwmatoV tou Cristou. “Till we all (we as a whole) attain to the oneness of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature (or maturity) of the fullness of Christ.” mecri is without an because the result is not uncertain. oi panteV, “we, the whole body of us,” namely, all believers, not all men (as Jerome), which is against the preceding context (twn agiwn). The oneness of the faith is opposed to the kludwnnizomenoi kai perferomenoi, k.t.l., ver. 14.

eiV andra teleion, a perfect, mature man, to which the following nhpioi is opposed. The singular is used because it refers to the Church as a whole; it corresponds to the eiV kainoV anqrwpoV..

God has more in store for the Church in time and in history than Christians have ever yet imagined.

Ephesians 3

20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

[Gavin]

John, this question will hopefully be easier to answer. Will the teleion come before final judgement, in your view?

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=149138#post149138)
Gavin:

John, this question will hopefully be easier to answer. Will the teleion come before final judgement, in your view?

Gavin,

That's a good question.

One word answer: No.

I think teleion refers to the ultimate/final consummation. So I do not think it comes before anything related to the ultimate/final consummation.

Blessings,

John

[Gavin]

That is what I wanted to know. We are in agreement. You confused me by your wording in your first post in this thread.

Gavin

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=149811#post149811)
Gavin:

That is what I wanted to know. We are in agreement. You confused me by your wording in your first post in this thread.

Gavin

:cheers:

[Rdr. Arsenios]

geo:
This is why Paul tells the Corinthians that he has much to teach them but that they are not yet ABLE TO RECEIVE his teaching...

John:
That sounds like John 16... [I got away from lazy]

Actually 1Cor3:2
1Co
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither * * yet now are ye able.

geo

[John Reece]

Today @ 08:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=150309#post150309)
George Blaisdell:

geo:
This is why Paul tells the Corinthians that he has much to teach them but that they are not yet ABLE TO RECEIVE his teaching...

John:
That sounds like John 16... [I got away from lazy]

Actually 1Cor3:2
1Co
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither * * yet now are ye able.

geo

George,

Interesting coincidence: 1 Corinthians 3:2 is in my next post on the stauroV / staurow thread, where I would welcome your comments.

Blessings,

John