OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: The Theology of Hell by Just Joan

[Trout]

There are two major views of hell that are taken from the Christian Bible, they are annihilation as punishment and the traditional view where hell is a place of everlasting suffering. The traditional view is more fitting with the characteristics of God as presented in the Bible, the nature of sin, punishment, the language associated with hell, and apocalyptic images presented in the Bible. Annihilationism is not only unneeded to understand references to punishment, but creates contradictions.

God loves people, but He wants people to freely choose Him. One claim is that God cannot be a loving God and allow people to suffer for eternity as punishment. This loses sight of how God’s mercy is shown in the context of justice. God is a just God. It is fundamental to the need for Christ that God operate within a system of justice; otherwise a savior to take our place would have been unneeded. Deuteronomy 32:4 even says “all His ways are justice.” An everlasting punishment is not so unreasonable in light of the need for justice.
"God is infinite and infinitely holy. Anyone who sins has offended God... This offense is against and infinite God therefore the offense has an infinite consequence... Since God is infinite and the offense has an infinite offense (by offending an infinite God), then the punishment must be infinite - eternal damnation." (“Even”)

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 describes a vision of eternity where Christ is “all in all,” and “He has put all things under His feet.” Ephesians 1:9-10 says “having made known to us the mystery of His will… that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.” According to this view, the problem with the traditional view is that:

"We see a dualistic picture, one world of bliss and holiness, one world of utter horror and sinfulness… throughout eternity, the saved and the damned... Sin will be an eternal reality, evil will be an eternal reality… the kingdom of God will exist side by side with the kingdom of darkness." (Theonomy)

References to destruction make universalism unreasonable in the annihilationist perspective and thus only annihillation can be true.

It is a mistake to think that at the end when everything is brought into submission to God all that would now oppose Him will be destroyed. Everything is already under God’s power, He is just allowing choice for a time but He still retains the ultimate power or say over what happens. In Luke 8:29 Jesus commanded a demon to leave a man. Demons must submit to His will. This world is already subject to the authority of God who created it. If the only options are universalism or annihilationism, then that denies the powers of God to do anything to change these people. Rebellion won’t be an option and denial will be impossible. All will be forced to recognize and submit to the authority of God, but those who did so before will be rewarded and those who did not will suffer as justice dictates and choices made beforehand lead to.

The nature of destruction of the lost can also be a partial destruction.
“The Hebrews thought of man as a unit with a body, soul (animal life), and spirit (that aspect of man which enables him to commune with God) inseparably related. Apart from the body, the soul was not the complete man.” (Hessert 199)

Lacking one part makes a person less than a whole person and the unglorified body of the unsaved will be resurrected for judgment. (Laudate_Dominium, Phatcatholic) Yet even if in the course of punishment, one part will be fully destroyed and annihilationism otherwise shownto be true, then more than merely a crumbs or ashes of a body will remain.

The problem of eternity in annihilationism is that in an effort to prove the complete obliteration out of existence that happens to those who go to the lake of fire is then that one must view the word for eternal in description of destruction as meaning that it will be finished and irreversible. While the irreversible aspect rightly describes it, it also forces the word eternal to thus describe that which has end. Now the same word is used to describe eternal life and to describe eternal punishment or destruction, so it can be assumed that the lives of Christians are as much an everlasting state of reality as destruction and Gehennah is for the damned. This is true even in the OT (Old Testament) as in Daniel 12:2 which speaks of some rising “to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This “eternal,” “everlasting” fire described in the Bible show that the right view of eternity is indeed a dualistic view. 1 Timothy 1:17 refers to “the King eternal, immortal, invisible…” Hebrews 9:14 makes reference to the “eternal Spirit” through which Christ was offered. 2 Corinthians mentions the “eternal house” in heaven. If we redefine eternal to mean everlasting in effect only, then this goes against the very concept of God and heaven that Christianity has always taken from the Bible. In light of this, it is unfitting to redefine “eternal” to make sense of the ideas that people bring about what destruction should mean.

One of the differences between annihilationism and the traditional biblical view is the understanding of the words for destruction. Some of the words used do not always hold meanings in accordance with, and indeed in other circumstances would hold meanings that would be contradictory in annihilationism. The annihilationist understanding therefore goes beyond the literal meaning in other context where the meaning of these words is clear. They therefore define a limited based on an interpretation of the words used.
It must be said that the pasages which speak of destruction… do not necessarily imply the cessation of existence, for in these passages the terms used for ‘destruction’ do not necessarily imply a ceasing to exist or some kind of annihilaiton, but can simply be ways of referring to the harmful and destructive effects of final judgment on unbelievers. (Grudem 1150)

Annihilation also violates a fundamental characteristic of the Bible which is that the Bible does not contradict itself but rather can be used to create a logical, coherent, scripturally based theology without contradiction. It may be worth noting that in definitions of destroy in dictionaries include meanings other than bringing to non-existence, such as total defeat, damage beyond repair, and ruin.

Matthew 10:28 is sometimes used to support annihilationism where it says “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Apollumi, which is translated here as “destroy” does not necessitate obliteration out of existance. It “literally means ‘to loosen,’ but often means to destroy or tear apart or come apart. It does not necessarily mean nothing will be left.” (Jaltus) Those that are “destroyed” in this way are not obliterated out of existence, but lost to God or life or hope forever. This is the same word used in Luke 17:27 and 2 Peter 3:6 to describe what happened to the unrighteous in the flood and Luke 17:29 what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah yet these people exist to be resurrected. The same word is used in numerous verses to speak of that which is lost as in the parables about lost sheep and lost coins. People who are destroyed in this manner have no hope but will exist separated from God, never to be made alive with the presence of God or be again what they once were or could have been.

“Olethros” is translated as “destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, “And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” To speak of "eternal" would be superfluous unless there is some reason to think that the destroyed would suddenly come back to existence later. The very fact that this destruction is described as eternal may suggest that it is something other than a mere annihilation. Furthermore, this same Greek word is used in the Septuagint in Ezra 14:16 to describe how the land might be rendered "desolate." Certainly the idea is not that the land would be annihilated. This indicates that this Greek word need not refer to annihilation. This word can then refer to the desolate state that the unsaved will suffer in apart from God. The eternal then indicates that this state will last eternally without end.

Although some annihilationists may claim otherwise, the traditional view does account for the fact that many passages referring to hell and end times are figurative. Mark 9:48 quotes Isaiah 66:24 in reference to the fire not being quenched and the worm never dying. Worms would eat away at a body of a dead person in this world after the first death. The worm that doesn’t die hardly seems like a literal reality, but one can see in this a kind of destruction, whatever the destruction is, that always happens but is never completed as this punishment or judgment consumes but is never satisfied once and for good. With fire representing God's judgment, it might be argued that judgment doesn’t simply stop as if they had been obliterated out of existence, but that the unquenched is never finally satiated to be no more. An unquenched fire is always consuming.

Belief in the truth of Christian scripture necessitates by its very make-up a belief in the inferrance of God in the religion of the people in it. Many times in the Bible pagan influences were accepted by the Jews and then some event brought about a rejection of false religious followings. If some false influence were to have taken hold at some point in the Bible, proper consequence would have occurred. (Maher 2) The original idea of an immortal soul in hell came not from Hellenic influence, but Zoroastrian. In it, hell was endured before the final resurrection and then mortal souls would be given immortality. “The Zoroastrian view is more akin to the traditional view in Christianity… Many modern scholars argue that Zoroastrianism should be properly considered the source of the very concept of hell for the Abrahamic Monotheistic faiths.” (Falcioni) Although in Zoroastrianism beings like demons were annihilated at the resurrection point, the lack of scriptural objection near the time this happened does give strong indication of the acceptance of the immortality of souls by the Jews in the Bible who remain the theological predicessors to Christianity.

The historic Christian view of hell is that refered to as the traditional view. Many of the early writings demonstrate similar language as the Bible in describing hell. Other works give an even more explicit view of how they understood it. In his work Apology in A.D. 197, Tertullian described hell as “the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility." (“Corunum”) The early church leaders were much closer than people today to the writers of the Bible and they still taught this.

Slight differences in may exist in the understanding that different groups have, yes despite this, mainstream Protestantism holds the traditional view of everlasting suffering just as many throughout Christian history have. The Catholic Church has maintained the traditional view for some two thousand years. (Maher 3) Despite differences in understandings of many other things, the traditional view is one of the most unifying beliefs within Christianity. If some two thousand years of Bible study have not taken away from the proliferation of this view, then some personal observation seems more a reason to study further than to abandon this long held doctrine.

(All Scripture references taken from New King James Version.)

“Even More Quotes From Universalists.” Christian Apologetics and
Research Ministry. 5 Dec. 2005 <http://www.carm.org/uni/uniposts3.htm>.

“Heaven and Hell” Curunum Apologetic Web Site. Ed. Joseph A. Gallegos. 5 Dec 2005. <http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/heaven.htm>.

Falcioni, Ryan. “RE: Hellfire and Damnation, or Why I Disagree with Annihilation by [author's legal name removed]” Email to the author. 6 Dec. 2005.

Grudem, Wayne. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 2000.

Hessert, Paul. Introduction to Christianity. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1958.

Jaltus. “Re: Destruction Question.” Email to the author. 15 June 2005.
LaHaye, Tim, et al, eds. Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible. Chattanooga: AMG, 2001.

Laudate_Dominum. “Resurrection and the Unsaved.” Online posting. 4 Dec 2005. <http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=43802>.

Maher, Sr. Terry. Personal interview. 3 Dec. 2005.

Phatcatholic. “Resurrection and the Unsaved.” Online posting. 4 Dec 2005. <http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=43787>.

Strong, James. The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1990.

Theonomy. “Opening Statement Against the Affirmative” Online posting. 17 June 2005. <http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=54937>.

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Thanks

[gharfish]

Trout:

To respond to this article, should I post here or in the other one that is presently two posts above (to the north !) ? It seems to have an icon indicating it is closed, right ? And yet it is the only one of the two, where this article is printed, that has a "reply" function to click on (at the bottom).

Also, this article is open to debate, apparently. So, can I "oppose" it (traditionalism) right here ?

Thanks,
Vee

[gharfish]

(...in a holding pattern !)

[Sparko]

You can reply here Vance. But be aware that this area is not for heated debate.

[gharfish]

Yes, I did notice Trout's "warning." I will be gentlemanly, and discuss the matter simply as a fellow student.

I guess that Theonomy has already had his say; that not too long ago he participated with one "Fred" (?) in a formal 1-on-1 debate...with who is now our "Just Joan" gal, I think.

(I'm pulling my notes together...

and thanks for the reply, Sparko.

[Telemaco]

I'm not in accord with the view that eternal punishment is more in accord with what the Bible says about God: in effect, if we think about the punishment of Cannanites, Sodom, etc. we notice that God don't put people in an "eternal suffering" but to death.

Bible anthropology, as conceded by more and more scholars, is about a being that's ONE and one only (if one consider any bible passage where the words Nephesh and Psychè occour this must be evident)

[gharfish]

"Traditionalism," has indeed been the long-standing majority view for...centuries. 'I'll get into' what I see makes up that view, later, but right-off I'd like to say that I hold to conditionalism--and, to something quite like annihilationism too. I think that conditional mortality is the correct theology of Hell, and that the purest-to-form doctrine of traditionalism is (quite honestly) a serious heresy that requires removal and replacement. It is too far from being truly scripturally supportable that it deserves to be rejected. This is of course "not from the Lord," and is the judgement from my studies on the subject.

I am a salvationist--an evangelist--and this model of Hell is, IMO, among the very worst possible things to still be hanging-up the progress of doing the work of God; to share the good news of salvation, through Jesus, with all men. While there is the very bad news, by default, on the "flip side" of the salvation message of Jesus' (as understandable in perhaps the core verse 'we' all know: John 3:16), and it must be told too. What that is must be as accurately as we can possibly tell (from scripture: now) is that which is given to those who are hearing the overall gospel of the Lord God, Jesus Christ.

This is a huge, complicated subject, and I wish I could, somehow, in one sitting (!), speak of what I have discovered in my own solemn and zealous search for the truth of the nature and purpose of Hell / The Lake of Fire (which is the Second Death). I don't know where to begin. Way, way too much ground to cover.

Well, I guess that the first thing I will assert is that "traditionalism" really cannot stand without the presumption that human souls are inherently immortal being absolutely true: that God made them this way; they cannot, because of their created nature, pass-away...ever...never. They--WE--exist never-endingly after death, and "will spend all eternity in either heaven or hell." Period.

God alone is immortality--eternal. Our exisitence at all times is entirely conditional on His will and power to give us life, body and soul. If we wish to understand the concept of eternity, we ought to examine (it) in Him. In traditionalism, it's not only the saved who inherit eternal life, but the lost are also given the gift of eternal life in torment...kept alive forever in their own immortality of the soul so that (their) indestructabiility assures that they will never escape whatever agonizing pains are there...in the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

We humans all, then, are naturally immortal, in soul (& body, for the lost at the white throne, final judgement are physically resurrected; body reunited with soul. --Certainly it's the present view of the Christian majority that their souls, anyway, will more-than-just-survive The Lake of Fire, & that for all time. And because our souls cannot die, be utterly destroyed, brought to total ruin; they necessarily then must suffer the torments and tortures of hell: unceasing, fully-concious pain...beyond all imagination in it's severity.

Does this notion of human souls being intrinsically indestructible, or that God wills not, and (so) will not punish the rejectors of His grace by destroying them eternally--even totally, by some point--come from the Bible, really ? If in forgetting the latter for now, centering right on the doctrine of souls that cannot be destroyed; is that from scripture ?! Was it even from Jewish tradition ?

To be blunt; traditionalism came to us originally from pagan Greek philosophy. It came by way of Socrates, Plato, and then went on to be taken-up by early church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatious of Antioch, Athenagoras (127-190), Tertullian (born about 160 AD), Clement of Alexandria...indirectly via Origen...St. Augustine (now hard doctrine: 300s AD)...and then shuffled-on with too little care by Anselm (d.1117), Thomas Aquinas (d.1274)......

I'll back-up, and let the flames die down after that ! There's too much to tell there, and so...here's something else !

There was no assurance of life after death in early Israelite history. Greatly / by-and-large, people believed that they were gathered to an underworld (Sheol) were everyone existed as mere shades/shadows of their formal whole selves. Not until the 500s BC did God reveal to the prophet Daniel that a resurrection would occur, for sure, and that all would be judged and either given life eternal, or be raised "to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2) Things were finally made entirely, finally clear regarding this all-important truth when The Son of God, Jesus, Himself, brought the revelation that we now have--are SO privileged to have.

(But) I'll retreat back to the topic of--no--not yet Hell, but to the the roots of the roots of it. First there was Sheol...and it was the abode of the dead in early Hebrew thought. It was the undifferentiated place where what survived them from their lives went. Faithful Jews were gathered unto their people; figuratively, "the bosom of Abraham." It has been rendered in the KJV 31 times as "the grave," 3 times as "the pit," and (here's a problem !!): 31 times as--incorrectly--"hell." In the NIV it is translated as "grave," and at least once as "the realm of the dead." In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16: 19-31) Jesus speaks of it having two compartments, dividing the faithful and repentent from (well...those who were neither), and this additional revelation, taken literally by most conservative scholars, sheds new light on the intermediate state for (not only)those who may have been liberated by Jesus when He went there, and emerged victorious in resurrection (Acts 2: 27 & 31), but for the lost who remain there awaiting the final judgdement (Rev. 20: 11-15). It would seem now that we can conclude that the condemned dead do exist, in the form of (proper) souls. Are they conscious, though ? Some say yes. If so, how does that feel, I wonder.

So what is hades, you may ask (or not !?) It's the same as the above, except now in the Greek language. Just as we will (will we ?) 'see' in the case of our "Gehenna" being Greek for the Hebrew "Valley of Hinnom".......which, in turn, was previously "Topeth." What does that matter ? These are the roots of what Jesus said the real place of final punishment would be like...resemble in some real ways. I'll go on to hell, then.....>_<

When Jesus told his listeners that the punishment for rejecting the salvation that He would go on to accomplish for them; freely offer as a merciful pardon for their sins, all (and that, too, if they willed He would present --impart, an everlasting life beyond the grave to them) He said that those guilty of refusing would come to the end of that choice in an other-worldly place that He illustrated by referring to a real, current-day, place they all knew well of: "...Hinnom," which is "Gehenna," which is our "hell." Hell, or Gehenna of fire, to Jesus' audience was the actual site outside S.E. of the walls of Jerusalem where the city's garbage was dumped. It was continually aflame. There were all things organic and inorganic there, either burning-up, rotting-away, or both.

It had a horrible history as well. This would impress Jesus' contemporaries even more; that the place that final judgement could, potentially, be their's to suffer (it's) punishment was grossly loathsome and even more horrible than what they could presently see happening in the historic "Valley of Hinnom." Originally, it was a royal pleasure garden, a kingly music grove......but it had a LONG fall, to where it was a site known for the worship of Baal--much worse still: precisely, too, where the idol Molech was worshipped by the mass sacrificing of infants, by fire. It was a fire-god to the Phoenicians & Ammonites, and became (like Baal) a Semitic "god," much to their shame. The victoms were slowly burnt to death in the arms of the idol, which were made of metal, hollow, and could be heated by a fire inside it.

Well, I better knock-off for tonight. I wanted to paint a picture--rather, try to show "the picture" that Jesus gave to those hearing Him speak of what Hell would be like. His imagery should not be ignored. It is figurative, but I think it has a literal point, yes ? Any discussion of Hell must involve the common language that Jesus employed. It has tremendous meaning; we just need to try to sort it out, so to speak (just as did those who first-hand witnesses, who were in the best place possible to fully appreciate Jesus' this very down-to-earth warning from the divine mind of Jesus).


*end, pt. 1*

[OMEGA7]

For anyone who has studied the bible for over 35 years like I have

would easily know the HELL - GEHENNA - THE LAKE OF FIRE

is exacltly that , a Physical Lake of Fire fed by OIL and Gas

which is common in the Middle East.

Jesus said that the Pharasees would be Cast on the local Garbage Dump

where the Garbage and dead bodies were burnt.

After Armageddon there will be alot of Dead bodies and Armaments

that will have to be burnt. Those who go to the Lake of Fire will be

working there throwing in the Garbage. That is it .

There will be NO Tormenting of HUMANS just Hot sweaty workers.

[gharfish]

For anyone who has studied the bible for over 35 years like I have

would easily know the HELL - GEHENNA - THE LAKE OF FIRE

is exacltly that , a Physical Lake of Fire fed by OIL and Gas

which is common in the Middle East.

Jesus said that the Pharasees would be Cast on the local Garbage Dump

where the Garbage and dead bodies were burnt.

After Armageddon there will be alot of Dead bodies and Armaments

that will have to be burnt. Those who go to the Lake of Fire will be

working there throwing in the Garbage. That is it .

There will be NO Tormenting of HUMANS just Hot sweaty workers.Gehenna (from which we get our word, hell) is essentially synonymous for the lake of fire ("which is the second death"). Gehenna--an illustration used by Jesus to describe the Hell--is the garbage dump you are referring to, OMEGA7.

The lake of fire, which brings about the second death, is the final revelation--terms--that Jesus gave to His disciple John in the book of Revelation about what we know as the actual Hell. That is; what Jesus says about it there is, literally, the final say (re.) the final station of punishment for those who have been lost to God--condemned for their unforgiven sins; those who refused God's offer of grace all the way to the end of their natural lives. Jesus' first mentioning of it is in chapter 2 where He promises that any martyred for His name/the kingdom of God would be given the crown of life: the gift of eternal life. For these overcomers, they would be given immunity to the second death: "...will not be hurt at all by the second death." John again records Jesus' saying in Rev. 21: 8 that the unrepentent and unfaithful of all men will not be given eternal life (v. 6b,7a), but "...their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur (brimstone). This is the second death."

So says Jesus ! And this is a real place/destiny, and (yet) it's not an earthly place...where as you put it "the pharisees...'and the dead from Armaggedon (along with their weapons) would be thrown into, tended by hot sweaty workers."

I am guessing that you are referring to the prophecies of Ezekiel's, from the 38th and 39th chapters (all); especially 39: vs. 9 through 16. The dead killed here, (IMO sometime during the seven-year long tribulation period one can see unfolding in the book of Revelation), are to be buried in a yet to be located valley and town, called "HamonGog...'Hamonah." This place is not going to be where gehenna was (the Hinnom valley), but to the east, beyond the Kidron, toward the Dead (salt) Sea, in it's own glen or valley. The northern tip of the Dead Sea is some fifteen miles due east from Jerusalem. The Jordan R. meets it there.

But this is really not the point, regardless of how close this yet to be used valley is to Jerusalem and it's immediate Hinnom/gehenna garbage dump that is associated with the other-wordly Hell. The point is that Hell is the place of destruction--body and soul--of all those who absolutely rejected and refused Jesus in their lifetimes.

The historical place/name of "gehenna" was indeed a fiery garbage dump just outside the city walls of Jerusalem in Jesus' 'day.' It was located in a gorge or valley known as Hinnom. Gehenna is the Greek for Hinnom. Topeth is an earlier name for this exact same place.....in Israel. It lay no more than a quarter mile away, and 'curved around' to the east to meet the valley of Kidron at the southernmost point of the lower city.

Enough said--more than enough said ! Your summing-up statement that no one will be tormented in a Hell is wrong (according to Jesus). Your "HELL - (GEHENNA) -THE LAKE OF FIRE" may be just a physical, middle-eastern, fed by oil and gas kind of place, but it was not Jesus' !! It's that other place...of final, permanent, irreversable, total destruction of those people judged guilty --well; see for yourself in Revelation 20: 11-15.

Verse 14b, 15: "The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (italics mine.)

(Where is the "White Throne" of last judgement locted in the middle east ? How long have you studied the Bible ?! I kid. I kid.)




* a P.S.: Jesus, knowing the O.T. scriptures as He did, knew that by comparing gehenna to the real Hell, prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels, and to come for the lost condemned of mankind; purposefully made known that (Hell) was and is a "valley of slaughter." The key to understanding that ? --> the scriptures in Jeremiah that call it that, as a punishment for those who worshipped and gave human sacrifices to Baal and Molech. (See ch. 7: 30-32 & ch. 19: 1-6).

[hereoisreal]

Vance:

>There was no assurance of life after death in early Israelite history. Greatly / by-and-large, people believed that they were gathered to an underworld (Sheol) were everyone existed as mere shades/shadows of their formal whole selves. Not until the 500s BC did God reveal to the prophet Daniel that a resurrection would occur, for sure, and that all would be judged and either given life eternal, or be raised "to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2) Things were finally made entirely, finally clear regarding this all-important truth when The Son of God, Jesus, Himself, brought the revelation that we now have--are SO privileged to have.<

IMO,there are 3 places: heaven, hell, and home. (Read the story of the prodigal
son Lk. 15:11)


The new birth: (Borne again)

.
Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees,
named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him,
Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for
no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say
unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is
old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

Years ago I wrote a little poem about this wind:

A gentle breeze
stirs the trees.
Wind's affect
is what one sees.
(Prey For The Wind)


Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are
the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts
. Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus
saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open
your graves, and cause you to come up out of
your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD,
when I have opened your graves, O my
people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know
that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD
Ez. 37:9 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy,
son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come
from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them,
and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Notice these are slain.


The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land, Israel
.
Then they'll know God said it and did it
.
For 342 stories in my life, go to <http://www.hereoisreal.com>
It's free and I'm not sellin' T - shirts

Zero

[Barbarossa]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?

[hereoisreal]

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land, Israel
.
Then they'll know God said it and did it

Zero

[gharfish]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?This post isn't enough "about" Hell, (but) does apply in a way to that subject because the thrust of it seems to be an assertion that there is no immaterial part of a human being; no soul (or "mind" if you prefer) to survive physical death, and therefore there is nothing "left" of people to be judged by God for the way they lived their lives...in light of what revelation--divine and/or general--they had been given, by Him.

Jesus clearly taught that those who with full knowledge and enough opportunity to repent of their disbelief, until the end, chose to finally reject and refuse the gift of pardon for sins and everlasting life; they would not be given either (no surprise) and they would perish in Hell as a result. Beyond that, what is God's will--what He will do--with those who did not have this special/divine revelation with which to act upon in faith, or not, is not something a Christian can afford to say with certainty. A Christian risks too much the possibility of error to try to pass-along with the gospel (at the same time) this remaining 'news'.....even though there are rather strong markers about how else a person can successfully rebell against God; put themselves beyond God's grace. The Bible only gives us indications; not the absolute certainty of salvation vs. condemnation as it has to do with what people will do with God's Son, Jesus, once they have heard and understand.

What I see in this post is the belief in materialism, and I won't call it strict, hard materialism as if that is (morally) worse than "soft." (It isn't). It looks like you, Barbarossa, do not believe that any "mind" exists separately from the material brain. I feel sure that you reject the Christian concept of every person having such a "mind" which survives death--which is what is the soul 'is,' or, maybe better said; can do. Our souls would be the more (essential (?) "half" of us, and go on to bear the full personality of all we ever were on earth. Therefore they also retain our culpability to God, concerning whether or not we yielded ourselves to Him and dealt with our sins in the only way He accepts: reconciliation made available through His Son's substitutionary saving work on the cross. If we are to believe Jesus, we know that death is not the end...our brains are indeed outlived !

Here is what I understand about the kind of materialism which runs counter to the things that Jesus said were true: Well, to start, by looking to Carl Sagan; a bottom-line 'error' can be stated, that the Cosmos is all that was, is, or ever will be. Everything is matter or reducible to it and dependent on it. If matter were to cease to exist, nothing would remain.

Most materialists would agree with Sagan that matter is almost certainly eternal and, continuing, it came to be--exist--from nothing and by nothing. It had no outside help-like, say, from a creator God...and (sprang-to-life !) spontaneously. Along these lines, this belief would hold that the universe is self-sustaining and self-generating. The world needs nothing in the way of an intelligent mind behind it; the world explains itself, by itself. The strictest materialist would point to science to discredit the religious notion that any spiritual/soul dimension exists, and there is no "mind" at all, only the chemical reactions going on inside the brain. What Christians will say is the mind operating in the soul of us all, is denied as only a process in the brain. Christians believe that we are more than just our brain functioning.

A less stringent materialist, might agree that a "mind" can exist separately, simultaneously, from the brain but it cannot exist independently of the material. When the brain dies so does the mind or soul. Jesus taught that upon our deaths our souls continue to exist, and will so for sure until we are judged by God. Specifically, for the lost/condemned; they will be judged when their souls are reunited with their physical bodies. He taught a resurrection to judgement, where all those who would be "cast into 'the lake of fire, to suffer 'the second death" (Rev. 20: 11-15) would be given conditional immortality for this purpose. Where these souls--persons--have existed since the time of the death of their bodies, is only called Sheol (in the Greek: Hades). Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31 tells us something about this intermediate state. Here is Hades, desribed both metaphorically and literally--mixed. The souls there exist. The parable teaches (at least) that literally. They are being held for judgement. Some will be granted eternal life to their souls; they will be given imperishable bodies too, and the remaining will pass into a place of permanent separation from God, that, with all of it's metaphors, is a place Jesus tells us is of certain destruction to both body and soul. What the agents of destruction are and how long it will take--these things--aren't revealed. It's no accident, IMstrongO, that irresistable fire is the central metaphor for 'what happens to you' in Hell. It is a timeless and universally understood way of conveying the power and fury of God as He executes punishment against all ungodliness. It is God consuming His foe: evil, in all it's forms.

'Luke 16's' Hades, however, is not this final place of punishment that we commonly refer to as Hell. When Jesus speaks of "gehenna," in the four gospels, and "the lake of fire / which is 'the second death," (twice) in the final revelation of His, recorded in the book of Revelation, these taken together are what we should see as being what Hell is.

I'll go back to the subject of materialism, as it has to do with the soul (that) Jesus said we don't just 'have,' but are... I guess I'll actually try to argue that the soul can exist, and could survive the separtion from the body.

Just because certain mental functions can be explained in physical ways does not necessarily mean that they are completely dependent on physical processes. There may be ways for the mind--soul, to think independently of the brain. It could have access to the world, and other 'worlds' too, such as dimensions that are spiritual in nature. A thought: Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that angels are spiritual beings that are conscious...sentient. The possiblity that there may be a spiritual dimension is something the materialist wants to avoid, and the total destruction of personhood with brain death is something they would wish to stress. The most we can say for certain, I think, is that brain death ceases one dimension of consciousness; that of this world. It need not be the severing of self-conciousness, a God-consciousness, and that of His realm. In gaining another body (either permanent or temporary), that God could give, we still might be able to access this present world.

The existence of the soul is something that would naturally elude discovery; it is immaterial and so then how could we rely on our physical senses to detect it ? The spiritual realm exists alongside the material, but should be thought of as essentially being beyond it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

rats. Five in the morning, already.


*will have to be continued... too tired...*
(nobody is reading this thread anyway !...& why should they, I guess)

[Dienekes]

Just add my own bit of infromation here

The original Holy Bible created by Constantine and his group of priests consisted of the Revelations of Paul. In which Jesus describes Hell, Apocalypse, and tells how Hell is only a way to pirge away sins before the soul is fit for heaven. This book was taken away during the middle ages when the Catholic fiath replaced it with another book Revelations which is extremely similar but without the freeing of sins. This can be directly related with the Churchs growing corruption and gaining wealth through indulgences. Coming up with the Purgatory symbol to express the time taken to be free of sins for believers and Hell as an eternity for unbelievers.

But to another point the idea of a forgiving God. The answer is God is everything. He is the most merciful being in existence, however that is not all, he is the kindest, wisest, most just, and holy. It is true that while in eternity in Hell is not forgiving, however it is just. God is the pinnacle and the perfect balance of all of these traits.

Just to add to Barbarossa in the Revelations of Paul Hell is described as eternally painful in a sense never before imagined by man. This sort of adds to the not like real humans, and Heaven as happiness and delight in its purest form unmarred by flesh and thought. These things are that of the soul makes of it and believes not that of the physical body.

[hereoisreal]

To all:

My two posts above have been totally ignored as far as posted coments
but I'll try one more time:

IMO,there are 3 places: heaven, hell, and home. (Read the story of the prodigal son Lk. 15:11)

It is a story about a man who left home, went two places, heaven then
hell, then jerked himself up by the boot straps and came back home.

I'm sure you've never heard the story described in such a way, but
what can I say?

Heaven is where there's all play and no work.
Hell is where there is all work and no pay.
Home is where there's work, play, love, hate, joy, sadness, sowing,
reaping, parents, children, and every thing between.

I think, if you looked at men through God's eyes, you would see men
as trees walking. They're lookin' for a better place. They never
put down roots. Did you ever see a healthy tree walking?

Home is where the heart is. Home is where your roots are.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:


Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.


Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.


Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.


Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.


Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.


Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!


Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,


Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.


Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.


Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.


Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet:


Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry:


Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.


Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.


Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.


Luk 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.


Luk 15:29 And he answering said to [his] father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:


Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.


Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Zero

[gharfish]

To all:

My two posts above have been totally ignored as far as posted coments
but I'll try one more time:

IMO,there are 3 places: heaven, hell, and home. (Read the story of the prodigal son Lk. 15:11)

It is a story about a man who left home, went two places, heaven then
hell, then jerked himself up by the boot straps and came back home.

I'm sure you've never heard the story described in such a way, but
what can I say?...Well, I agree with you that the prodigal son "went through hell," as the saying goes, having left his loving father behind, selfishly, striking-out to now do things his way. It didn't work out in the least ! He was "blessed by guilt;" he had the courage to suffer the legitimate shame of admitting to himself that from the start he had made a moral mistake ...to forsake what godly wisdom he'd had.

The beauty of Jesus' illustration--the parable--is though the son had been so unwise, wayward in all his ways; immediately upon his return, in contriteness, he was smothered with love by his Dad. He wasn't even thinking, at all, of the wrong done to him. He only cared that the son was...here ! ...with him...had come back home that he might be blessed again.

He was extremely joyfull that his son was back with him, in body and in heart. His love never did wane (nor, I bet, did he lose hope or confidence in his boy), but he did give him the freedom to go away, even knowing that he was risking his beloved's self-destruction; his child not really endangered by the wasting of monies, but the beginnings of a squandering of who he was as a person. He risked losing his son to a ruinous life, but it had to be--if to be fair. It was with a heavy heart that he respected his son's right to leave his care, to give opportunity to himself to seek the pleasing of self above all else.



That's how I see it, anyway.

It's wonderful to consider what Jesus was saying about us and the Heavenly Father in this parable (Luke 15: vs. 11-32). It's a thrilling assurance that God loves us unconditionally, and no matter what we have done that is wrong; to our detriment and that of others, He is always intently watching far down the road in hopes that we will want to--will--come back into His outstretched arms. He'll meet us as we come up the path !

The way back home is, of course, through The Son, Jesus. Jesus is one and the same as the Father, God. And he is a loving, merciful, all-forgiving Dad to us; yes, the perfect care-giver, willing to spare Himself nothing (as we see in the sacrifice on the cross) to open wide the door to receive us. To dine merrily with us, his once-upon-a-time lost children. ...if only we will it. That is what's required. He's done the work--the rest; everything, essentially. It's all been accomplished now that every last sin can be justly forgiven--remembered no more. Now he stands at the door, awaiting us.



"Here, I'm standing at the door, knocking. If someone hears and gives heed to my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will dine with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3: v. 20)



It's a love--truly boundless grace--wonderful, beyond all we could ever wish to find. God is earnestly seeking us ! There is a great hope and meaning to our lives. We are not all alone down here. Our Maker is truly, actually right there at the door of our hearts, desiring our invitation. If we will, the very first sight will be of a glorious face beaming with love and compassion.



Thank you, hereoisrael, for reminding me of this. I feel encouraged as I recount to myself this particular one of Jesus' love stories towards us. You are right on the very center of the gospel (good news !), with your post.

V.

[hereoisreal]

Vance, thanks for your reply.
We can all relate to this story because it is about family.
We, most of us, can put our feet in both the father's and son's shoes.
Been there, done that.
Fathers ( and mothers ) want to protect children from what is beyound the home.
We want our children to be wise but wisdom can not be tought. It is learned
and it comes from God.

David said to his son Soloman who was instructing his son below:

Pro 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Pro 4:6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Sooner or later, children want what the parents have... their own world (with children).
Family is what it's all about.

There is nothing "wrong" with leaving home. We just hope that when they do, they don't forget their roots and the sacrifices that brought them to that moment.
If you look at men through God's eyes, you might see them as "trees walking".
After they wander through life and die, many proclaim, " He's gone to a better place."

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
( She has deep roots.)


Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
.
Eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what makes one wise.
Wisdom only comes from God.
The prodigal son came home a wise man.


The following is part of story # 283 on my web site:


THE STORY OF THE THREE BARES

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

There are three heavenly bodies that play the greatest role in our lives. The sun, earth and moon. One is too big; one is too little; the other is just right. One is too hot; one is too cold; the other is just right.

I was thinking about that one day as I picked up a Reader’s Digest. I clumsily opened the book near the middle and my eyes fell on some lines of humor, which I began to read. A man vacationing, I believe in a national park, went to the public bath to shower. When he tried unsuccessfully to adjust the water temperature, he shouted in disgust, “This water is too cold.” Another grown-up voice hollered, “This water is too hot.” Then, from a third stall, a small voice proclaimed, “This water is just right.”

Zero

[God_is_personal]

...Hi, ladies Trout XIII and Just Joan---"just", Joan, can mean "only" or "merely", OR it can mean "fair" because you are caring and considerate.
...like this, there are words and things in the Bible that can have different meanings. My intentions can have a lot to do with how I CHOOSE to interpret...this according to my personality.
...I think free will can be overrated...considering Romans 9:21 in context.
...But it is good to be sensitive in relating with other people. Love people. It's not that I think very highly of their free wills, but God wants me to be considerate, not forcing and trying to just USE people (1 Peter 5:3, Ephesians 5:21); so I need to not take for granted and expect things without being appreciative...even if I am paying and so-and-so promised. STILL, be thankful.
...It says to be thankful with God, who has promised.
...Free will, to certain people, can mean a person makes one's own choices, and therefore is accountable for the choices that person makes, and therefore its OK to demand things of the person, and crunch down on and pressure the person for what you suppose is right.
...But God wants us to be willing and cheerful to do and give what is good. So, I understand that God does not want us to do things out of guilt pressure, fear, etc. . . . OR because you charm or bribe the person. And the meaning of this, I would say, is God wants us to do only what He is satisfying us to do in His love...in sweet sensitive sharing with Him.
...So...if I really love people, I want them to do things for me ONLY if God's love is nicely satisfying them to do something for me. I welcome people to make their own choice about if they want to do something for me; I encourage them to be satisfied, not feeling coerced - - - doing this with the intention that they relate with God and be satisfied by Him to do what He has them do for me. I don't want them just to please me, but be with God, getting satisfied to do what He wants...so they are sharing with Him. That's what I think free will really means, how God wants people to be free in His love so they can do only what He is personally satisfying them to do.
...Or they're not free...but in slavery...like Romans 6:17 appears to me to indicate. Yes, they are making choices with their wills. But in sin they are free from God so they can make choices without how God's love would restrain and guide them. So they are free from God, in sin. So, yes, they DO have free wills...in slavery.
...But this is about hell, in this forum. What about Romans 9:21? There are vessels for honor and for dishonor...maybe like drinking cups which hold and share living and pure and refreshing water, and we have the sewer buckets where you put worry and hate and self-righteous judging and perverted stuff, etc. . . . filth that goes to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone, I understand. After all, God is the God of order. So, I can see He has things in order, with His water system, and the sewer system for transporting the filth of Satan's spirit of evil to where it is going, in sewer buckets (Ephesians 2:2).
...So when that nasty reacting, overbearing criticizing, and other messing stuff gets going in me, I don't need to just control it and hold it in, but FLUSH it so it can go where it is going, WITHOUT ME. And paranoia and worry and depression, too, need to GO...without me. God can make this work very nicely...according to my own experience, trusting Him to do this.
...So I need to make sure I have in me ONLY the things and reacting and emotions of God's sweet gentle kind sensitive considerate love. Yes, I'm improvable (James 5:16).
...As for the fire? How about Hebrews 12:29? And you don't feel burnt unless your nature is selfish...like how food on a fire will cook and get better, while trash is what will burn. But that would be annihilation. Oh-oh. But the burnt material is in another state after burning...and THAT would not be organized.
...I can see that hell will have order, and that for eternity, using volunteer buckets who have INSISTED on carrying around their selfish stuff, when they could be flushing it and getting filled by God's living and loving waters instead.
...Nice to meet you, ladies.
...Hereoisrael, I especially benefit from that thing you gave about hell and heaven, versus HOME...having roots, instead of being a walking tree.
...Home with roots, I'd say, can be NOW. We can be rooted with God Himself in His very own Heaven love, NOW (Romans 5:5)...by faith, meaning being joined spiritually to God Himself...1 Corinthians 6:17...so we are personally intimate and sharing with Him. Thank you.
...And hi to you others. I read through your writings, and have addressed various things without naming you specifically.

[hereoisreal]

Hi Bill,
It's been 15 days since I posted here so I was beginning to think
there was no interest in what I said.
Most of what I say gets a most negitive response from both believers
and all others as well. Some atheism and christian sites have banned me.

I said to my housekeeper one day, " Heaven is hell without law and order.

When hell meets the law, the shit will hit the fan." (Please pardon the

language but that's exactly what I said. It's part of the story.)

The next morning I opened my newspaper to the front page. The top

headline read, "Helmet Law Inforcement Begins".

Blessings

Zero



That word isn't allowed on the forum, please refrain from using it in the future.

[God_is_personal]

Hi, Hereoisreal...
...Thank you for getting back to me. I miss hearing from the others.
...And I see that Mrs. Trout is perhaps a good homemaker...who keeps an eye on things here. Good.
...Now, you just shared, "Heaven is hell without law and order."
...And when I just read this, I took it to mean that you are saying that heaven IS hell...hell without law and order. OR you meant, I THOUGHT, it is hell BUT without law and order. And you can see I had a problem with what I supposed you meant.
...What NOW I can understand is you really mean that if there is not law and order, then what is considered to be heaven is going to be hell, because of not having law and order. And this can mean that my little heaven on earth, that I may contrive for myself, can become a living hell...because of my selfishness.
...Hmmm...getting this together with Just Joan's presentation...so we CAN make hell for ourselves, in THIS life. We can be miserable, with Satan in his awful and dominating and wasting spirit..."the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2...I use New King James, too) That horrible spirit is the worst part of hell, I COULD consider; and people have this NOW, even while they deny there is hell. Already, they have the suffering and agony and torment...NOW, because of living in selfish stuff.
...So, going to the place hell is just taking the same thing further, of what ones are already in while being in denial. So, I need to pray for us....that we get with God, however we each need to. Thank you, Hereoisreal; I hope I understood you right.
...And hi, Mrs. Trout, since you are checking on us...nice to see you. Thank you.

[hereoisreal]

Bill, life has an "if" in the middle:


Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but

that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house

of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the

righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall

not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for

his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness,

and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath

committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which

is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 [If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life,

without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is

lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is

not equal.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die

thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live

thereby.
Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after

his ways.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is

righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work

shall be.



The following is story # 335 on my web page:

SUPERDUPER POOPER SCOOPER

One of God’s laws which he said was to be kept forever, and ever, and ever, requires every soldier in God’s

army to carry a foxhole-type shovel, permanently attached to the
other end of their spears. This is not for digging foxholes. It is to be used each and every time you do your

‘business’ in the camp. The point emphasized is, that should someone
fail to cover it up, the Angel of the Lord just might step in it when he is walking about the area at night. The

consequence of this, should it happen, is not described, but I for one, would not want to put it to the test.

Deu 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad,

thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
Deu 23:14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine

enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from

thee

IMO, you make a mess, clean it up. If you can't clean it up, cover it up


Ps:
Thursday, November 18, 2004, I opened my paper to find an article written by Billy Cox in
the Florida Today newspaper. He did a feature about me several years ago.

A woman, named Julie Arnold, had a pet clean up service called, "SUPERDUPER POOPER SCUPPER".
I had the article on my scanner a few days later as I was working with a family
member at my computer.
I glanced at my scanner and thought,
"I'll tell her about this item in the paper."
Then I changed my mind and kept on working at my desk as she left the room.
A few minutes later, Joan, my wife, stuck her head in the door and exclaimed,
"Paula just stepped in some dog poop."

Zero

[God_is_personal]

Hereoisreal...neat stuff...how it says "if" we stop the wrong stuff, our sins will not be remembered, will not be mentioned.

Neat, how "if" is in the middle of "life". Now, I would consider that life is the life we have in God's love. Or else, you would need a word meaning miserable, with "because" in the middle of it. If I am in selfish stuff, I am degraded so I can be ransacked and manipulated by dominating and dictatorial passions...because I'm in the selfish stuff. There's a built-in punishment of not being obedient to God. Consider Romans 1:18-32, i.eeeee., how those people became wasted and ruined by controlling passions because of their refusal of God. So, this is hell, right now, I can see...a foretaste of what will be multiplied if one does not change to God.

(Sparko has been diligently telling me to space my format; it took TWO times of him telling me before I got what he meant. THANK you, Sparko.)

It says let the evil man forsake his evil ways. So, yes, God does actually expect, I would say, ANY sort of evil person to change. People CAN change. Sparko kept after me, on the other web page, for a while before I got what he was trying to tell me....in Nontrinitarian's thing about who are you going to believe. I didn't get what he was meaning by forgiveness, either, but I think at least I now know what he means.

So, we CAN change. It can take time. But there are people who believe psychopaths and pedophile predators and terrorists and snobs etc. can not change. According to your Bible quotes, yes they CAN; and so they ARE accountable. And so, they DO qualify for hell, if they keep on doing evil.

But there is hope; so we can pray for and have hope for any evil awful person. Good to see you again, Hereoisreal; thanks for sharing. You have a wife? Hi.

Yeah...and about that thing about how the LORD could step in it while walking in the camp---yes, God can sense and feel what we have in us and what we're putting out. So, it's good to be sweet. "And walk in love, even as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2...yes NKJV, Just Joan) He can smell us. And how we smell will have a lot to do with "if" He wants us with Him in Heaven.

Therefore, "rather let it be the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) But IN me I can get overbearing against people...even though I might ACT nice. I need to be sweet and gentle, more in God's love... so I am ready to be relating like this in Heaven..."submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

Or else, what's in me is for the flaming sewer.

So, I confess I need to be a more kind and gentle person...more caring, less critical. And it says, "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16) So, you can pray that I get "healed" to do better.

We are in Jesus' priesthood---with Him in His forgiving and confession and healing prayer. And ANYONE can join us. See the signature verse.

[Jeannot]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?
Your post raises the whole question of free will. But how much of it can there be if just about everyone in the ME, etc, is Muslim, and the majority of Americans are Christians? I doubt that everyone in the ME compared religions and chose Islam as the best. What you are seems to be 95% how you were brought up. So where does that leave free will?

[THUMPER]

The world has Many different religions and cultures. Religion, like culture serves a purpose. Be the purpose supportive by giving hope or simply to be used as a guidline of rules for people to follow. The danger therein lay with people who take religion as literal interpretation.

How many times has a person reported to the world they speak for God? The answer is, as many times as there have been religions or street corners to stand on. One concept standing clearly for all to see in most religions is that you must agree with my religion or face the torments of some type of hell. It's "a be with us or else" philosphy. Christianity teaches that all must beleive in XYZ or face torment yada-yada; the gapping hole is that the backwoods aboriginie who is clueless about religions is, by religious doctrine, in deep excrement without that "choice" religions speak of. It's a no-go Houston, no launch today.

It's unfortunant people have taken religion too far. I'd think with written religions as young as they are ( 4,000 to 2,000 yrs old) there would be a profound wake up call when we all should realize that mankind has a biological history dating, at minimum, back 75,000 years to the period after Neandrathal. The physical evidence far outweighs the text of recorded history of religious notations. Isen't it true, that even today we see religions that go far and beyond what a "good Christian" would do to another? And isen't it true that many-many religions teach that "they are the one truth". This might be a clue that there isen't a "truth" and we still seek it? Logic prevails. Dogma .

My views are as valid as any religions, I think, I write, therefore, I am :)

Regarding God, creation and consciousness: We exsist, because we are "aware". We are conscious and alive even as the body dies the consciousness goes forward into a reality we have created. Absent any religion to dictate who we are and how we should "act" we are truly Free within our choices, absent of course any religions. We have the inate ability to elect for ourselves what destinations we wish to arrive to. This theory assasinates religions as it leaves out "God" purhaps in the views of many. God being the one we lean on, depend on for truth and guidence per the religious doctrines of many. God, who or what, if anything might God be, why must God be? I sense mankind has a limited mindset within religious doctrine. Religions tend to place God as a male figure, strong, clean and almighty. Sound familiar? Maybe like an NFL quarterback? We creat the image to match the view that best supports Our needs; we lean on religion as a crutch as some are confined to such thoughts by influneces, be it cultural-family or just basic brianwashing.

What might Chrisianity say about another humanoid-species 157,000 light years from Earth; oh, "God created the Heavens and the Earth" so therefore they too must be Catholic...Not sarcastic, strong points tend to sting a little. What happens to that entire species per the Catholic doctrine? Or purhaps Catholosism teaches we are alone in the infanite Universe?

Thinking far outside the bun one might discover some truth beyond Infant Earthly religions. Christians-Muslims and others scoff at backwoods tribes with their funny cultures; they paint themselves worship the sun God or Coke-can dropped by an aircraft, oh, they worship the God of Cesna also, the low winged version of course, blashemy...anyway, Truth is perceptive...isen't it true, that tribes from New Guinei actually built a straw replica of a low flying aircraft as a God a few decades ago? Again, isen't truth perceptive? They were taught, by vision ( they saw the plane) or by word that that aircraft was improtant in a serious way. These guys waited for the return of that aircraft...um, damn...now this is fairly familiar ground here...

Mankind is master of their own destination, we creat, we are the creators of our relaity. God, is evident as order in the Universe is evident. I sense we are not remotely close to understanding what "God is" as religions have simply made a cultural based attempt to do just that, with disasterous results I might add. God may be something huge, or as simple as a thought, God may also be someone like us who has been around longer than we...

The nature of reality yet escapes man.

[Scrip]

I'm not in accord with the view that eternal punishment is more in accord with what the Bible says about God: in effect, if we think about the punishment of Cannanites, Sodom, etc. we notice that God don't put people in an "eternal suffering" but to death.

Bible anthropology, as conceded by more and more scholars, is about a being that's ONE and one only (if one consider any bible passage where the words Nephesh and Psychè occour this must be evident)
This is a general note/reply. Anything less than the traditional teaching on Hell proportionately diminishes the importance of Christ's sacrifice. The difference is being saved from a head-on collision and a fender-bender.
Scrip

[gharfish]

Your post raises the whole question of free will. But how much of it can there be if just about everyone in the ME, etc, is Muslim, and the majority of Americans are Christians? I doubt that everyone in the ME compared religions and chose Islam as the best. What you are seems to be 95% how you were brought up. So where does that leave free will?(from three posts above)

Do you know what the Qur'an plainly teaches ("just about every Middle Easterner") about Jesus, that necessitates he/she rejecting Jesus' gospel (and therefore him) if freely choosing to believe in the message of Muhammad ?

Do you know that it is not silent with the exclusive/absolute truth claims made by Jesus ? ...and it features Jesus rather prominently. Certainly enough so that to believe what the Qur'an says about him means that a person does not believe what the four NT gospels say.

To 'choose Islam as the best' is a calcualted decision to reject Christianity because Islam's writings literally deny in black-and-white the deity of Jesus. To give Jesus status as God's Son, fully divine, is the unforgivable sin of "shirk" at the dark center of what is thought to be Christianity's gross tri-theism instead of THE foundational truth of real monotheism.

*If the scriptures one believes in openly refutes the scriptures of the other's, then the reader need not to have had put in any work in comparing the two.*

(But, shouldn't one ought to put themselves out a bit in making such a decision anyway ? After all, it is supposed to be pretty important--kind of a big one, right ?)

The Qur'an (and the Hadith, both) are irreconcilably in conflict with the central, essential, teachings of Jesus regarding what saves and what condemns a man...

To be a trusting Muslim is a EYES-WIDE-OPEN not trusting of all that is essential in Christianity's--Jesus'--teachings about his clearly defined mission here on earth. Muhammad had another... a completely different one, and he asked others to put their trust in another God. Allah is not the God of Judaism...Christianity. Nope.

All true Muslims, no matter where they grew up or their ethnic identity, know what they are doing re. Jesus when they say "yes" to Muhammad's revelations, because the prophet of the Qur'an is quite clear on what he/it says about Jesus.

If the Muslim claims he didn't know what he was doing specifically "with Jesus" when he became (one), and all the years afterward, then it is his own fault for being personally ignorant of those scriptures he held to (over another) --the very man, too, at the heart of his chosen religion.

An unexamined faith is one's anyway, by default.

"ME" people are no more required to truly practice the religion of their heritage than Westerners are of their's. Note I said practice !

Nominal, cultural-only Islamists and Christians of the same are the norm, for the most part. And just plain not being religious is acceptable everywhere--but, if one fears what others will think, going through the motions is not burdensome. It can serve to further one socially...and may even ease the conscience as a bonus.

[gharfish]

This is a general note/reply. Anything less than the traditional teaching on Hell proportionately diminishes the importance of Christ's sacrifice. The difference is being saved from a head-on collision and a fender-bender.
ScripThe traditional model of Gehenna/lake of fire is the "head-on collision," one is saved from, I take it. Is the saving/sparing of a "fender-bender" anything less than a never-to-end torturing of one's soul (body too ?) ...that is fully-conscious of that pain ? Is it anything less than eternal destruction ? ...or the perishing of John 3: 16 (?)

Is Jesus' final word: the lake of fire "which is the second death," and the earlier analagous fiery Valley of Hinnom=gehenna="hell," both meant to describe in some way what the place is like in terms of the quailty of suffering this punishment, or that and that the fire is a metaphor of an eventual destruction...that is (then) everlasting ? ...irreversible ?



----------------------------------------------------------------

What is the worm that dieth not ? What is the gnashing of teeth ? What is outer darkness ? What is the second death ? What is a resurrection to everlasting contempt and shame ? What is meant by the smoke of torment rising forever ? What is the fire that cannot be quenched ?

Is the eternal fire of hell a description of the nature of the place as far as it's permanence 'in time,' [prepared for the Devil and his angels, who may be contained there forever, "alive"] Or is eternal hellfire unquestionably a revelation that the fires are somehow reflective of the emotional (and physical) pain--that they never end because the soul, and resurrected body, are inherently imperishable ? The fires are eternal/everlasting because what they burn cannot be destroyed, and therefore they keep on burning and burning and burning. Is there really anything like what we know as fire (or rising smoke) in 'hell' ?

Does the Bible teach that man's soul is, since the fall anyway, 'naturally' immortal ? I can't find the scriptural evidence to satisfy that...and if lacking it, the "doctrine of the fire that doesn't consume" loses it's steam.

If the soul is conditionally immortal, then it could be that the fires that once did not consume in the traditional hell, does turn out to be the best metaphor for the destruction ('at some point') of all the lost to God--those who definitely rejected God's grace in the sacrificial giving of His Son, Jesus Christ.

I believe that all those who repent of their unsubjected self-willfulness and, rather, turn to put their trust in God's Son, Jesus, as their resurrected Saviour--go on to follow Him as their Lord, are saved for a life that will never again be lost. They will be given an imperishable body in the resurrection, reunited with a soul that is CERTAINLY immortal too; this is the whole of what Jesus called the condition of eternal living: in how one exists with Him forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course everlasting/eternal life is much, much, more than the existing of it !!

But for those who to the end reject salvation through Jesus Christ, they do not inherit life eternal but are condemned to eternal death. Apart from the only One who alone possesses eternalness, the lost are lost to total ruination. The separation of them from God, the source of eternal life; it is that which brings about their second death. It is likely not instantaneous (for anyone), IMO, but it is the inevitable result for they were not imparted the Life who Jesus alone has been given the right to take for Himself, and the authority and power to impart to all who will trust in Him.

The lost are not given any kind of an eternal life of their own. The saved are ! The saved are saved from the perishing that would otherwise be their fate (as well) for dying still in their sins, having likewise refused to believe in the only Son of God. They who did not believe in His resurrection=they will not share in it.

They are raised to stand before the Lord Jesus at the white throne judgement, and for rejecting God's Son they are cast into the lake of fire. There is the real place that the Valley of Hinnom/Gehenna pointed to. There the lost are immediately subjected to the element(s) that will destroy--consume them--as was everything that went into that terrible place outside the city walls of old Jerusalem..

[Scrip]

Mark 9


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Here we have three times where Christ assures us of the permanent
nature of both the "worm" and the fire. Since "the Scripture cannot be broken" we cannot break this stone of truth by bashing it against another Scripture or any human reasoning either.

Instead, this Scripture must be placed in harmony with all others, especially those directed to the same subject. The fires that burned outside of Jerusalem in the garbage dumps have long since been extinguished. Actual worms do not live long in flame. The description of Gahanna is used by Jesus as an earthly object to teach eternal truth, even as He taught other aspects of God's Word.

Hell is taught in this passage in all it's horror by Jesus as a place to be avoided at all costs, even to the point of self-mutilation. A paraphrase rendering would be something like this; Do not let anything, even something as precious to you as your eye or hand keep you from right now entering into eternal life by trusting in Me. You must be born again or suffer the horrible eternal fate of those who die in their sin, even Hell forever and ever.

Thus the Savior used the truth about Hell as an incentive to go to Heaven even if for nothing else but to avoid Hell. How unlike today, where evangelism often degenerates into promises alone with no mention of Hell! And many of those promises are questionable perhaps and of an earthly nature.

What is a "worm" was asked; Psalm 22 answers. A worm is the lowest form of humanity as fully expressed in the rejection of the gracious offer of God to save. The good news is that Christ identified on the cross with the lowest sinner; "I am a worm and no man". Take courage all sinful men, Christ has paid for even your despicable sins if you will but believe now and enter into life!


SCrip

[THUMPER]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?
Too many people are caught up in One of hundreds of "religions". Too many take "religion" verbatum, by the book. This is highly restrictive in beliefs. One can quote the Bible day after day and interpret day after day what ever it is you want. It doesen't change the fact that literally hundreds of other religions are doing the same thing, day after day. So, who's right, who's wrong? All of you are. Nobody has it right. Whom can say "I know God"' I thinik maybe we all know a little about God...just a little.

[THUMPER]

Too many people are caught up in One of hundreds of "religions". Too many take "religion" verbatum, by the book. This is highly restrictive in beliefs. One can quote the Bible day after day and interpret day after day what ever it is you want. It doesen't change the fact that literally hundreds of other religions are doing the same thing, day after day. So, who's right, who's wrong? All of you are. Nobody has it right. Whom can say "I know God"' I thinik maybe we all know a little about God...just a little.
It was stated that we are not our Souls are not ourselves and that we cannot "survive death" as our brians will not contain "us" our memories ECT. Wow. I coulden't disagree more. The writer does predicate everything on the physical body, a dead brain can't do much.
Imagine if you would, that consciousness does not thrive in the physical form, but simply resides in it for a time.
Science has not pin pointed where "consciousness resides"; science has only found the brian to be a receptical, a physical machine directing the consciousness into the physical body to allow it to manipulate the body; it works.
Speaking to people whom have survived near death experiences one can gather they have in fact left their body and remaned "themselves". Too many people have attested to this fact which does support that consciousness does and can reside absent the body.

[God_is_personal]

Hi, THUMPER > You shared,

"Imagine if you would, that consciousness does not thrive in the physical form, but simply resides in it for a time." Yeah, I'd say the conscious me is not my brain or physical body...but spiritual; and my soul is the feeling me who can experience what's going on in my body but also spiritually so I can sense God and NOT God. But I notice how when I'm asleep or when a person is knocked out . . . consciousness stops, except during dreams. So, if I am spiritual with a spiritual capability of consciousness, how come during brain shutdown I do not continue to have deeper nonphysical consciousness?

Well...before dealing with this...you also shared, "science has only found the brain to be a receptical, a physical machine directing the consciousness into the physical body to allow it to manipulate the body;" And, "Speaking to people whom have survived near death experiences one can gather they have in fact left their body and remaned 'themselves'." Well, in a near death experience, "maybe" the person experienced being out of one's body, but was not really.

What can I consider? How is it that my lights can go out during sleep or anesthesia, etc., and then I can come back again without consciously choosing to do so? Well, I believe God controls things like when we fall to sleep and when we wake up...like He decides if and when each of us is going to die. And . . . the Bible says "God is light" (in 1 John 1:5); plus Jesus is the One who lights every person who comes into the world, as I understand John 1:9 in context. Possibly, then, consciousness is a gift of God, an effect produced by God being our light who lights up our consciousness . . . kind of like how certain things show up . . . become more or less activated in different ways . . . when you shine a certain wavelengths of light on them.

And God, during sleep, may have His reasons for us not being conscious of all that happens during sleep. But what about dreams, during which we ARE conscious? > maybe they are a sort of screensaving function to keep us functional so we don't get shut down TOO much during sleep...like how a computer's screensaving device is meant to keep the screen from getting too set with certain images on screen.

[God_is_personal]

Scrip, I think that's a pretty sound thing you gave about if the Bible says there is a Hell that is experienced and felt and that lasts. And Jesus says it would be better to cut off a hand or take out an eye that has you involved in wrong things...better than going to Hell, He says. Now if Hell was painless, what difference would it make? I would think. Now, is that FAIR? --- I mean, to have a little pleasure in this short life, then end up in Hell for eternity? All that suffering for all eternity, because I chose to do some sexual pleasure stuff, for example, and didn't kill or rape etc.? And then end in Hell, with all that pain because of just a little bit of pleasure? Doesn't seem fair...doesn't seem like a punishment in proportion to the crime.
...But in this country where they claim to believe in the Constitution which says the punishment should be proportionate to the crime, and not cruel and unusual . . . you can steal a car, put the owner through a few hours of inconvenience, and how long could YOU end up in jail? MORE than a few hours, and maybe get raped or whatever. Then maybe no one will give you a break for the rest of your life. So "a number" of PEOPLE here in the U.S. are NOT about fair punishment, "possibly". But ones of them may criticize God for having a Hell.
...Also, in the earlier scriptures we have in Moses' Law how punishment is to be balanced with the crime...eye for an eye, among other things > take a look at Deuteronomy 19:15-21, for just ONE example of how this can work > if you bear false witness in order to bring a punishment on another who is innocent of the crime > YOU were to be punished howsoever you intended to get that innocent person punished!!!!!!! INTENTION can have to do with what we deserve for a punishment, in God's way of judging.
...So, what you are intending, by influencing others to stay away from God > this "could" have something to do with it > i.eeee., to influence someone to miss out on so much...so that one will suffer so much, deeply, in THIS life, by not being with God. And once you die, you no longer have your nice body that can make you able to feel some pleasure . . . but all you have is spiritual . . . with the one you are deeply involved with. And if you are not with God, whose spirit will this be? > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) > a very horrible and awful spirit, the one who makes us feel so lousy NOW, with depression, hatred, hurts, unforgiveness, lusts having such inferior pleasure feelings and then "witch" leave us degraded so we can argue and suffer. THAT filth of Satan, to be with for all eternity > and YOU intend to keep people from God so they will have that? NOT a good idea.

[Scrip]

For anyone who has studied the bible for over 35 years like I have

would easily know the HELL - GEHENNA - THE LAKE OF FIRE

is exacltly that , a Physical Lake of Fire fed by OIL and Gas

which is common in the Middle East.

Jesus said that the Pharasees would be Cast on the local Garbage Dump

where the Garbage and dead bodies were burnt.

After Armageddon there will be alot of Dead bodies and Armaments

that will have to be burnt. Those who go to the Lake of Fire will be

working there throwing in the Garbage. That is it .

There will be NO Tormenting of HUMANS just Hot sweaty workers.
You left out the part that says "their worm will never die". Worms are quickly burnt up in a natural fire like the type you are propagating. The fact that these "worms" never die points to a fire that will also be eternal.
Dennis Clough

[God_is_personal]

About if hell has fire which consumes a person out of existence > you can consume something so there is no more of it > but in our souls, we can be consumed by wrath, but still be very much in existence

And Hebrews 12:29 says, "For our God is a consuming fire." So, I consider that God Himself could be the fire of hell. And the suffering could be NOT because God wants to hurt them, but because their NATURE is to suffer in the presence of God...like how a worm in nice warm sunshine life-giving will burn on the sidewalk...not because the sunshine is bad, but because the worm's nature makes it so it can burn and die in sunshine.

But we humans are spiritual beings, deep down inside us...so we are not just physical bodies. And that spiritual stuff is self-existent, I consider. Plus there is the spirit of evil > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) . . . not what God would have brought into existence (?) . . . so, self-existent . . . so it has to go somewhere . . . and the spirit of evil is against what is good > notice how selfish people can even actually deeply suffer about a good thing like RAIN which God gives us for life on this planet > WOW!!! people can actually hate what is good, if they are deeply corrupted by the spirit of evil > so your suffering can be because of your selfish nature > God can be right with you, but because you are selfish in spirit, you can get burnt about forgiveness, depressed about rain, etc. > so, if hell fire is God Himself, you in a selfish spirit can indeed suffer

Now, it says, the Lake of Fire is the Second Death > so does this mean you go out of existence and out of conscious experiencing?

How about 1 Timothy 5:6 > "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." So, being "dead" does NOT necessarily mean you have no conscious experience, at all. But you can be LOVE-dead, but very much alive in a living death of depression about rain, feeling enraged about someone getting forgiven, holding a grudge against someone who shows love to someone other than you > So, I consider, the Second Death can be a very feeling thing > the way you die is the way you fry > like when you go to sleep > if you have been sweetly loving people, you can wake up sweet and refreshed > but if you have been wheeling and dealing and squealing, this is "why" you may wake up feeling and smelling like burnt rubber > in the resurrection, I consider, how we are spiritually shall be multiplied so much, since no longer will we have our bodies to "dilute" how we are deeply > there will be no body to help us feel some pleasure to make that feeling of deep awfulness go away; there'll be nothing but how we really are

[Bill Hohmann]

The historic Christian view of hell is that refered to as the traditional view. Many of the early writings demonstrate similar language as the Bible in describing hell. Other works give an even more explicit view of how they understood it. In his work Apology in A.D. 197, Tertullian described hell as “the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility." (“Corunum”) The early church leaders were much closer than people today to the writers of the Bible and they still taught this.

Are we to conclude from the above that when Jesus died, and his soul was in hell, that he was in punishment?

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Regards;

Bill Hohmann