The location of Christ’s Reign

[Darth Xena]

In another debate, I just really noticed something in a favorite verse of mine (or maybe I rediscovered it since I find it hard to believe that I did not pick up on this before), and it is yet another text disproving the idea of a Millennium with Christ reigning physically on the earth from Jerusalem.

First of all .here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2555#post2555) I prove that we are in the “millennium” by using chronology verses other than the Olivet Discourse, but here, within those same texts, Paul tells us where Christ will be reigning from….


Eph 1:20-21 – “…which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.”

Did you catch that? Pay careful attention here. Paul is telling us something “this age” (the age in which Paul was writing) and the “age to come.” Now (though I do not believe this) I will grant simply for sake of argument that the “age to come” is a future “millennium.” Fine. But notice that Paul is not just telling us about timing, he is telling us about location, and this reign of Christ takes place from the right hand of the Father in Heaven!! Not on the earth!!

And of course this what Psalm 110 has also been saying all along, and when that is paired with Psalm 2, it is painfully obvious that the Holy Mount of Zion which is the location of Christ’s rule is the heavenly realities behind the carnal types of fleshly Israel

[Hitch]

Ps 132:12-16
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
(KJV)

It took a Man to open the door to this place. A human being to successfully run the gautlet of life and mark the way back to God. It took a God who so unreasonably loved he entered his creation as one of the subjects. By coming to us and going before us to the Father, this is the place Jesus prepared for us and prepared us for.

GLORYTOOGOD

[Darth Xena]

Isn't it weird Hitch how that passage just really struck me!! I was so wrapped up it in as a proof text for the timing of the Millenium, that I completely brushed over its mention of the locatin of the reign. :argh:

[Hitch]

Paul spent much of his life remembering what the mighty Stephen had said. I reckon after his famous road trip he got the idea Stephen was preaching just to him.

H

[Darth Xena]

I would love to see a good dispie tackle this one in combination with me end of the age argument. I don't think it can be refuted.

[Hitch]

Dee Dee Warren:
I would love to see a good dispie tackle this one in combination with me end of the age argument. I don't think it can be refuted. Along these lines I ve used this passage a couple of times;


John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(KJV)

John 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
(KJV)

John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(KJV)


H

[Darth Xena]

Any dispensationalist willing to take me on with the one passage I brought up?? I am sincere, not just talking smack or anything. If not, maybe invite dispensationalist friend who would be interested? I understand that not all of us have time to answer every objection lobbed our way.. but the silence on this one is... well let's see.

[Darth Xena]

The silence is deafening. I am almost tempted to invite an old nemesis just to get some discussion going.

[joelkaki]

No kidding.

Joel

[Xmansmommy]

Dee Dee Warren:
The silence is deafening. I am almost tempted to invite an old nemesis just to get some discussion going.
DD, while I will admit that I cannot adequately address many of the issues brought up in this forum, b/c I am still studying and learning, I would also like to suggest that I don't believe there are a great deal of dispy's here on TW. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. Just a thought as to why so much "silence." ;)

[Darth Xena]

Dear XM:

You are probably very correct. So.. get cracking and invite some!!! Otherwise our gloating will become absolutely unbearable. LOL. FYI - I have forwarded this question to several very capable dispensationalists that I know... we shall see if they step up to the plate. I am waiting to hear back from them.

[Lizard]

Xmansmommy:

DD, while I will admit that I cannot adequately address many of the issues brought up in this forum, b/c I am still studying and learning, I would also like to suggest that I don't believe there are a great deal of dispy's here on TW. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. Just a thought as to why so much "silence." ;)

Dee Dee Warren:
Dear XM:

You are probably very correct. So.. get cracking and invite some!!! Otherwise our gloating will become absolutely unbearable. LOL. FYI - I have forwarded this question to several very capable dispensationalists that I know... we shall see if they step up to the plate. I am waiting to hear back from them.

I hope we do get some more DFs here soon. I have been taking trouncing lessons from Dee Dee, and I need the practice. :p

But seriously, I really would like to see more DFs.

[Xmansmommy]

Dee Dee Warren:
Dear XM:

You are probably very correct. So.. get cracking and invite some!!! Otherwise our gloating will become absolutely unbearable. LOL. FYI - I have forwarded this question to several very capable dispensationalists that I know... we shall see if they step up to the plate. I am waiting to hear back from them.
Girl, I'm inviting everyone I know! Trying to catch up to you on referrals....NOT :rant: :rofl: Anyway, I hope to be seeing some great posts from my dispy brothers and sisters soon :yipee:

[Darth Xena]

Hey XM... thank you for the invites you are doing. Thank you so much!!

However, I do know we have a few dispies here that are quite active on other threads, but have not touched this one with someone's else's hand. But perhaps they are busy which is SOOO understandable because to be honest there are about four other threads that I would love to dive into but just do not have the time. There are some great dispie and eschatology discussions going on.

[Xmansmommy]

DD,
You are most welcome. I enjoy inviting my friends here. Anyway, I know there are a great deal of fantastic dispensational discussions going on here. I am really enjoying them as well. As for all the dispy threads....we have to realize that there are a half a handful of dispys who are active and they cannot of course address every thread. Be patient sister, the site is only 3 weeks old ;) I'm sure in time you will have more dispy members than you can handle :p

[Darth Xena]

Oh I realize that XM.. there are already more threads than I can handle.

[Darth Xena]

super LARGE bump!

[Act9_12Out]

Dee-Dee,

I think I understand what you are trying to present. Are you trying to argue that Christ is currently seated on His throne over the promised Davidic kingdom in the heavenlies?

Luke 1:32 says that God "will give Him the throne of His father David" -- that sounds like something to happen in the future rather than in the interim before the kingdom is established. Isaiah 9:7 says that "there will be no end to the increase of His rule or of His peace upon the throne of David and over his kingdom..." This is in the immediate context of Messiah's birth in the preceding text, but does not necessitate that His being seated on David's throne begins at that time. I would say that Messiah assumes the throne of David at the commencement of the millennium. As King over the world, He is no doubt enthroned in heaven, but the Davidic throne I would see as strictly upon earth. Another problem with your position is as follows...

Are the 12 already resurrected and seated on 12 thrones? I believe this will happen during Christ's earthly reign of the Davidic kingdom.

Matthew 19
19:28
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

A couple of things here... Christ says that He will sit upon the throne in the regeneration. Are we already in "the regeneration?" Secondly, Christ says "when" He sits on His throne, the 12 Apostles will also sit on 12 thrones. Is this also a reality? I doubt it. We see that this happens after the satanic rebellion, the Great White Throne Judgement, and after the New Heavens and the New Earth come down from God.

Revelation 21
21:12
It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
21:13
There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Again, is this a current reality? I doubt it...

In Christ, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

[Darth Xena]

Dear Jeremy:

You have done what I affectionately refer to as a "yeah but" objection. I am not saying your questions are invalid, but what you have done is brush off the chronology I presented, and said it cannot be true because such and such verses could not have happened, but you never then intergrate your such and such verses with my initial proposition, and then all that is done is create an "apparent" contradiction in Scripture. So.. what you need to do at this point is to collate your alleged rebuttal verses with my original verses to show how you present a better alternative that makes the most sense out of all the verses.

[Act9_12Out]

Dee-Dee,

You have done what I affectionately refer to as the "backpeddle for time to respond" obfuscation. The only thing you have presented thus far is that Christ is at the right hand of the Father in Ephesians 1:20,21. You offer no explaination, but rather make a statement that this somehow proves that Christ is currently on the throne of David (never addressing the fact that the Davidic kingdom is not mentioned in the passage). You offer no chronology to consider as to how Christ arrived on this throne. Then you fail to respond to my post and say, "respond to my first..." You say,

I am not saying your questions are invalid, but what you have done is brush off the chronology I presented,

Could you point me to this chronology? You continue,

and said it cannot be true because such and such verses could not have happened, but you never then intergrate your such and such verses with my initial proposition, and then all that is done is create an "apparent" contradiction in Scripture.

Sorry for backing up to a point that occurred prior to Christ's death, burial and resurrection (I believe in another thread either you or joel have stated that Christ was raised to the Davidic throne at His resurrection?). I believe my points are valid at this point. I would appreciate a response. You continue,

So.. what you need to do at this point is to collate your alleged rebuttal verses with my original verses to show how you present a better alternative that makes the most sense out of all the verses.

If you could be a little more specific as to which of your original verses you refer to, I would be happy to go from there.

--Jeremy

[Darth Xena]

Dear Jeremy:

You have done what I affectionately refer to as the "backpeddle for time to respond" obfuscation.

Uncalled for. I have been upfront with you each and every time that you gave a good answer but I simply need time to respond. This is not one of those occasions. Reread my opening post and interact with the issues I raised therein which you have not done, and that is simply all I asked. You can show that you have done that perhaps by quoting and responding since the post is not very long which is unusual for me.

So when you have shown that you interacted with my opening post and verses rather than simply introducing new verses, then I will respond further for which I have amply time for the issue and controversy I alleged in my opening post is a narrow issue. If my opening post was somehow unclear, I would be glad to clarify.

PS: I am not asking that you respond to points raised in the link that I provided in my opening post, just to the text in my opening post.

[John Reece]

Dee Dee,

And of course this what Psalm 110 has also been saying all along, and when that is paired with Psalm 2, it is painfully obvious that the Holy Mount of Zion which is the location of Christ’s rule is the heavenly realities behind the carnal types of fleshly Israel

Which is why premillenialist translators of some of the most popular English versions just could not bring themselves to accurately translate απ αρτι in Matthew 26:64.

P.S.:

That's what this thread is all about:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1545

:smile:

[Darth Xena]

Acts 9?? I really do want to hear your position on my opening statement.

[Act9_12Out]

Dee-Dee,

The reason I did not respond to your statement concerning Ephesians 1:20-21 is because I disagree with the premise. I did not want to get off on a rabbit trail, but since you asked...

I would hope that you have had enough exposure to the mid-Acts position to understand the distinction I draw between Israel and the body of Christ, I'm not asking if you agree with my position, just if you understand it. Now, to Ephesians 1.

Ephesians 1
1:20
which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
1:21
far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
1:22
And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over the all things to the church,
1:23
which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills [b]the all things in all.

If you noticed, I translated the definite articles in verses 22 & 23. The original literally says, ta panta "the all things." Paul is referencing a specific "the all things." Ephesians 1:22 tells us what this specific "all things" is, specifically the church which is His body. The context shows that Christ is filling up the body with believers. We are the fullness of verse 23. We are filled because of Him, and He is filled because of us. Christ is the head of the body, and we are the "members" of the body. Paul continues with this idea.

Ephesians 4
4:15
but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--

Colossians 1
1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.



Paul shows that we are the fullness of Ephesians 1:23.

Colossians 1
1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
1:19
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

We are the fullness of Him who fills "the all things" (Eph 1:23). It pleased the Father that we dwell in Him. In summary, I disagree that you can use Ephesians 1:22, 23 to show Christ reigning on the Davidic throne. Ephesians 1 shows Christ to be the Savior of the body of Christ, and the fullness (body of Christ believers) dwells in Him. This has nothing to do with the Davidic throne.

Now, on to my questions...

Luke 1:32 says that God "will give Him the throne of His father David" -- that sounds like something to happen in the future rather than in the interim before the kingdom is established. Isaiah 9:7 says that "there will be no end to the increase of His rule or of His peace upon the throne of David and over his kingdom..." This is in the immediate context of Messiah's birth in the preceding text, but does not necessitate that His being seated on David's throne begins at that time. I would say that Messiah assumes the throne of David at the commencement of the millennium. As King over the world, He is no doubt enthroned in heaven, but the Davidic throne I would see as strictly upon earth. Please respond...

Are the 12 already resurrected and seated on 12 thrones? I believe this will happen during Christ's earthly reign of the Davidic kingdom.

Matthew 19
19:28
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

A couple of things here... Christ says that He will sit upon the throne in the regeneration. Are we already in "the regeneration?" Secondly, Christ says "when" He sits on His throne, the 12 Apostles will also sit on 12 thrones. Is this also a reality? I doubt it. We see that this happens after the satanic rebellion, the Great White Throne Judgement, and after the New Heavens and the New Earth come down from God.

Revelation 21
21:12
It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
21:13
There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Again, is this a current reality? I doubt it... Just as you have stated that your chronology is "irrefutable evidence," I suggest that Matthew 19:28 is irrefutable evidence that Christ is not currently seated on the Davidic throne in the heavenlies. Yes, He is the King over Israel, however, He will reign in a future kingdom on earth when the 12 Apostles are resurrected with Him and are seated on 12 thrones.

--Jeremy

[Darth Xena]

Dear Acts 9:

I know you want to move onto other verses but you have not dealt with my opening challenge to my satisfaction, and I would like to explore that a bit more first. I know you believe the Body and Israel to be separate, and I know you have certain ideas about what the Throne of David must mean, but you really have not dealt with the core of my argument, so I will bring it out hopefully with a bit more clarity, and perhaps the repetition will bring my point home. And on a side note, yes I do believe I understand your position in its major contours. I have almost completely read The Plot and interacted with quite of few X9ers. Remember that my partner in this Website (yxboom) is an X9er.

Now again here is the verse under question:

Ephesians 1:20-21 - …. which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

I will just for sake of argument take a lot of your presuppositions as true and ask you to reconcile then this passage. First, let’s just say that we are not in the “age to come” described by this passage. Second, let’s say that Church is separate from Israel and that the “age to come” is the Millennium. By this rendering we are still a part of “this age” as referenced in this passage. Okay?

Well, look at the passage Jeremy. Paul describes the reign of Christ in the age in which Paul was living, and in which you believe we are still living. It is a heavenly reign with Christ seated in the heavenlies not on the earth. It is a reign at the actual right hand of the Father. However…. And this is what you must explain, Paul says that the nature and location of Christ’s reign continues through the age to come. So, even taking your suppositions as true for the sake of argument, you cannot reconcile this is in your system. Paul has stated that Christ will continue to rule from heaven, from the Father’s right hand, throughout the “age to come.”

This comports with the reference to Psalm 110 which arguably is the most important OT passage to the NT authors being more referenced or alluded to than any other.

Psalm 110 says that Christ is to sit at the right hand of the Father (He is fixed there) UNTIL His enemies are made His footstool. Now since this already happened judicially at the Cross, this is not what is being referred to here as the author of Hebrews tells us that the actual and practical subduing of Christ’s enemies is what is being referred to. He will have no active enemies after that point. So… He cannot leave the heavenly throne and position to come to the footstool (earth – and what King leaves the throne to come and rule from the footstool anyway?) in an alleged Millennium because He still has enemies active and kicking. Satan is still around, sin is still around, and death is still around, and there are enough enemies to provoke a final eschatological showdown at the end of the Millennium. This is utterly contrary to Scripture.

I really need you to focus on this point, and then we can move on. Please only bring in other verses that will clarify your position and understanding this passage. Brining in other verses just to say it cannot mean what I say it does is not helpful for it still does not explain how you reconcile it. In doing so, you only create an “apparent” contradiction in the Scripture.

[Act9_12Out]

Dee-Dee,

You say,

I know you want to move onto other verses but you have not dealt with my opening challenge to my satisfaction,

Do you think that will ever happen? :rofl:

You continue,

And on a side note, yes I do believe I understand your position in its major contours. I have almost completely read The Plot and interacted with quite of few X9ers. Remember that my partner in this Website (yxboom) is an X9er.

Well then, YX has not done an adequate job of converting a great defender of the faith. Maybe I will be a bit more successful... :thumb:Now, on to your points...

By this rendering we are still a part of “this age” as referenced in this passage. Okay?

Okay...

Well, look at the passage Jeremy. Paul describes the reign of Christ in the age in which Paul was living, and in which you believe we are still living. It is a heavenly reign with Christ seated in the heavenlies not on the earth. It is a reign at the actual right hand of the Father. However…. And this is what you must explain, Paul says that the nature and location of Christ’s reign continues through the age to come. So, even taking your suppositions as true for the sake of argument, you cannot reconcile this is in your system. Paul has stated that Christ will continue to rule from heaven, from the Father’s right hand, throughout the “age to come.”

As I have described in my previous post, I believe the context of Ephesians chapter 1 is the body of Christ. Again, Paul addresses a specific "all things," which I have shown to be His body. Why is this important? Paul also tells us that we, as members of the body of Christ, are "seated above the heavenlies."

Philippians 3
3:20
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Now, for some reason, all english translations fail to translate the huparcho which follows the ouranos "heavenlies." The word huparcho is where we get the english word hyperbole. I believe the original text shows that we, as members of the body of Christ, have a citizenship "above the heavenlies." Now, with this said, if Ephesians 1 is referring to the body of Christ (which it is), then Christ is most definitely ruling over the body from heaven in Paul's (and our) present age, and "the age to come" (The tribulation). The body of Christ is resurrected and are reigning in the heavenlies with Christ. Our citizenship is above the heavenlies. You continue,

This comports with the reference to Psalm 110 which arguably is the most important OT passage to the NT authors being more referenced or alluded to than any other.

Okay...

Psalm 110 says that Christ is to sit at the right hand of the Father (He is fixed there) UNTIL His enemies are made His footstool. Now since this already happened judicially at the Cross, this is not what is being referred to here as the author of Hebrews tells us that the actual and practical subduing of Christ’s enemies is what is being referred to. He will have no active enemies after that point. So… He cannot leave the heavenly throne and position to come to the footstool (earth – and what King leaves the throne to come and rule from the footstool anyway?) in an alleged Millennium because He still has enemies active and kicking. Satan is still around, sin is still around, and death is still around, and there are enough enemies to provoke a final eschatological showdown at the end of the Millennium. This is utterly contrary to Scripture.

Forgive me for being unfamiliar with your preterist view. Are you saying that all of Christ's enemies were actually placed under His feet at the resurrection / ascension? Christ has no enemies right now? Has the satanic rebellion already taken place? Have the battles of gog and magog taken place? I take serious issue with this. I believe that just as Christ is seated on the throne of David (positionally), He is also the Head of the body of Christ (positionally) in this age and the age to come. Christ takes on dual rulership here. Christ is the Head of the body and the promised King of Israel. Is He not strong enough to do both? Christ will most definitely rule with a rod of Iron in the Millenium, and will be an active Ruler / King in the satanic rebellion. After the destruction of satan, the false prophet, the beast, death, hades, etc, Christ will hand all authority to the Father. You continue,

I really need you to focus on this point, and then we can move on. Please only bring in other verses that will clarify your position and understanding this passage. Brining in other verses just to say it cannot mean what I say it does is not helpful for it still does not explain how you reconcile it. In doing so, you only create an “apparent” contradiction in the Scripture.

I believe all of the passages I have presented are germane to this discussion. I would like you to respond to them. You seem to present a neat little package, but have yet to deal with those "apparent contradictions" I present.

In Christ, --Jeremy

[Darth Xena]

Dear Acts9:

I am sorry but we cannot moving on until you honor my request to thoroughly deal with the opening post. I have a very narrow focus in starting this thread and want to keep it that way.

This is where we have gotten so far… You have agreed that we are still living in the same age as Paul, thus we are in “this age” of that passage. (understand that I am only agreeing with this for sake of argument in order to disprove your system using your own system to do so) and….

You said,

As I have described in my previous post, I believe the context of Ephesians chapter 1 is the body of Christ. Again, Paul addresses a specific "all things," which I have shown to be His body. Why is this important? Paul also tells us that we, as members of the body of Christ, are "seated above the heavenlies."

No I am sorry you are greatly mistaken here, and again I will use your own system to prove you wrong. The context of Ephesians 1 (and any of Paul’s passages about the preeminence of Christ) is NOT only dealing with His preeminence simply over the Body. It is His preeminence over all things… (also explicated in Philippians 2:9-10).

Ephesians 1:19-21 – and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

The passage itself tells us what is the range of Christ’s dominion, and it is not simply the church but it is ALL encompassing….. ALL principality, ALL power, ALL might, ALL dominion, and EVERY name that is named. Do a word study of those phrases and you will get an idea of the universality of this dominion. Paul exhausted Greek terminology in making his point clear. That is not simply the church. This is describing the universal reign of Christ which is consistent with the rest of the NT on this subject. ALL authority and ALL judgment has been given to the Son (Matthew 28:18). For your point to be correct, you will have reduced the majority of the NT to teaching simply the tautological lesson that Christ is the head of His own Body. He is the head of all and all will be subjected to Him.

And the fact is that this is a quote/allusion to Psalm 110 a fact which has been curiously absent from your answers. A look at Psalm 110 shows that it is a rule over His enemies! (which is obviously not the Church) and that it is His enemies that are to be subjugated while and finally put under His feet while He still occupies that place of heavenly rule. He does not leave that position until all His enemies are conquered, which ties in perfectly with 1 Corinthians 15:24 et all which place the END of the Messianic reign at the resurrection. This is unavoidable. No gaps required.

The Book of Hebrews (2:8-9) proves my point that this reign is not simply speaking of the Church (for you do not believe the book of Hebrews has anything to do with the Church) in that it affirms that we do not yet see all things put under Him (the Church was certainly already put under Him) but that we are awaiting this final subjugation which will occur from heaven!! Hebrews also defines the ALL THINGS very broadly and cannot then be limited to the Church…. All of the NT allusions to Psalm 110 must be taken en block. So …. My point remains…

And an a side note, the “age to come” is NOT the Tribulation… if you believe the Tribulation to be future (incorrect), the Tribulation ends “this age” and begins the age to come, and my point remains…. And remains even more so for Paul makes a parallel between “this age” and “the age to come” declaring Christ’s status and location to be the same.

Until you explain this within your own system in a coherent manner we cannot move on. Paul describes the nature and character of Christ’s reign. It is in the heavenlies and ends when all His enemies are put under His feet. This leaves no room for a future Israel-centered earthly rule whatsoever. It is not limited to the Church, it is the universal reign of Christ. It is described by Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Daniel 2, and numerous NT passages.

The argument is really quite simple,and simply devasting to premill thought.

ADDENDUM... I see I left out...

Forgive me for being unfamiliar with your preterist view. Are you saying that all of Christ's enemies were actually placed under His feet at the resurrection / ascension?

No, they were postionally placed there, and they will be actually placed there at His second coming which is the end of His reign. This makes such perfect sense out of this period that we are in now. It is His reign. The NT declares both truths, they have been placed under HIs feet and they will be placed under His feet, and it will all happen while he is at the right hand of the Father in heaven, not on earth, which is His footstool.

Christ has no enemies right now?

That is not what I said, His rule is in the midst of His foes as per Psalm 110.


satanic rebellion already taken place? Have the battles of gog and magog taken place?

No and no if you are referring to Revelation. Yes, if you are referring to Ezekiel.

issue with this. I believe that just as Christ is seated on the throne of David (positionally), He is also the Head of the body of Christ (positionally) in this age and the age to come.

His location does not change in either age according to Paul. And the resurrection marks the end of all His enemies. He is the ruler of ALL now, and so yes, He is certainly strong enough, and He is strong enough to do so from the heavenly throne.

[Darth Xena]

And to supplement, and perhaps make more clear a point that I had made before, this is not simply a NT Pauline idea to be relegated to the "Body" (again accepting as true simply for the sake of argument the flawed foundation of my brethren), but is stated in Psalm 110, again a most important passage to the NT authors (Pauline and non Pauline)....

Psalm 110

The Lord said to my Lord,“Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

If the thread of this thought is followed throughout the NT, it is apparent that this sitting and waiting is a current reality, and is finished when Christ's enemies are totally subjugated, including the last enemy which is death. What that means is that death is destroyed while Christ is still sitting at the right hand in heaven, not ruling in Jerusalem. This makes the Millenium impossible as death in present in the Millenium, and Christ remains in heaven while death is a current reality. The consummation is the event which causes Christ to return to effect this destruction.

[Darth Xena]

Still a tremendous problem for the anachronistic hyperliteralization which produces an earthly throne in an earthly Jerusalem for a fictional future millenium.

[JackS]

Hey Dee Dee you said:

"This comports with the reference to Psalm 110 which arguably is the most important OT passage to the NT authors being more referenced or alluded to than any other."

There in lies the problem. When you are debating any verse of scripture with someone, what method of intrepetation are they using? If the person you are debating places no weight on repetition in Scripture, then your above statement is meaningless to them.

You see you and I place great weight on repetition. In fact it was the number of times that Psalm 110 is referenced in other verses that got my attention. So it is almost a waste of time if you do not know what rules a person is using for Bible intrepetation.

[Bill the Cat]

I want to troll for a sec if I may. :troll: Paul clearly shows in 1 corinthians that Jesus must rule UNTIL all enemies are put under His feet. They have not been put under His feet yet.

1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death

So if all Christ's enemies were put under His feet at the crucifiction, even "positionally" as you call it, then all power and rule are handed over to the Father. This process of "placing them under His feet is an expression taken from the OT :

Jos 10:24 When they brought these kings out to Joshua, Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the chiefs of the men of war who had gone with him, "Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came near and put their feet on their necks.
Jos 10:25 Joshua then said to them, "Do not fear or be dismayed! Be strong and courageous, for thus the LORD will do to all your enemies with whom you fight."

There was no "positional" placement before the actual placement. God said that the Israelites would conquer the 5 Kings and not until they were conquered were they used as footstools.

[Darth Xena]

Are you denying the now/not yet phenomena of Scripture? (I can prove your statement wrong about five different ways)

[Bill the Cat]

Yesterday @ 04:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91306#post91306)
Dee Dee Warren:

Are you denying the now/not yet phenomena of Scripture? (I can prove your statement wrong about five different ways)

In reference to our salvation? No, but in reference to Christ's total victory over Satan, yes. Satan, unfortunately is still the ruler of this world, or else He has been defeated and authority has been transferred to the Father.

And you know I just LOVE a challenge. :btc:

[John Reece]

Bill the Cat:
Satan, unfortunately is still the ruler of this world, or else He has been defeated and authority has been transferred to the Father.

Matthew 28

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (ESV)

[Darth Xena]

Yep. :thumb: Satan can't have it if Jesus has it. Jesus is the ruler of the universe which includes Planet Earth.

[Bill the Cat]

Reeeee Heeeee Heeeeeelllllyyy????


Sorry, Ace Ventura flashback there. So glad you quoted Jesus here after the resurrection.

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.


Well, either Jesus is the God of the world, or Satan is.

Like I said, I love a challenge. :btc:

[John Reece]

Today @ 02:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91912#post91912)
Bill the Cat:

Reeeee Heeeee Heeeeeelllllyyy????


Sorry, Ace Ventura flashback there. So glad you quoted Jesus here after the resurrection.

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.


Well, either Jesus is the God of the world, or Satan is.

Like I said, I love a challenge. :btc:

What is needed is perspective.

The One to whom the Father has delegated ALL authority in heaven and on earth has authority over the ruler of the world. And those who are in union with Christ share that authority over the ruler of this world.

Ephesians 1

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Mark 12

24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? (ESV)

[Bill the Cat]

I never argued that Jesus was not ruler over everything, just that Satan is still in charge of the world. Maybe not as ultimate ruler, but ruler none the less. Kind of like Jesus allows it.

And just an aside note with a question.

I believe the first resurrection is physical, not spiritual. If spiritual death is all that is conquered by the first resurrection, then death itself has yet to be defeated. Do you hold that Death has not been defeated or has Christ truly put all enemies under his feet?:btc:

[Manasseh]

Hi All

Just thought i'd let you know that many dispensationalists believe that Christ will be in Heaven during the Millenium, e.g. An extract from a paper call "The Lord will reign" by Mr Fereday.

"Here a difficulty may present itself to the minds of some of our readers. It has been asked: "Are the heavenly saints to be actually on the earth during the kingdom?" By no means; our home is above. Even Christ Himself will not be personally present on earth throughout that period, else where the need for a "prince" to represent Him in Jerusalem? (Ezek. 44: 1-3; Ezek. 45: 7-25, &c.)."

I don't know what mid act Dispys believe, but those who are in the vein of John Darby don't have a problem with Christ being in heaven during the 1000 year reign.

regards
Manasseh

[Hitch]

05-09-2003 @ 04:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=92016#post92016)
Bill the Cat:

I never argued that Jesus was not ruler over everything, just that Satan is still in charge of the world. Maybe not as ultimate ruler, but ruler none the less. Kind of like Jesus allows it.

And just an aside note with a question.

I believe the first resurrection is physical, not spiritual. If spiritual death is all that is conquered by the first resurrection, then death itself has yet to be defeated. Do you hold that Death has not been defeated or has Christ truly put all enemies under his feet?:btc:
As usual your premise is faulty.

Death was defeated by the Resurrection of Christ, in his case in the physical and on our behalf , judicially. This is fully realized at the general resuerrection which Jesus spoke of. Your premise is faulty because in the case in question spiritual death was outside the possible.

Just as Christ was Savior at his birth, it is obvious that he lived many years before the cross, and there were specifics that had to be met . And so just as we have a part in his (bodily) Resurrection many years will pass until the bodily Resurrection of mankind. He was very specific when he said a time would come when 'all that are in the graves' will respond.


I reckon this illustrates the basic dislike of the DF system to account for the historical process. In fact if DF notions of the Parenthetical Church Age are correct the church is guest in history rather than the shared center of it. It should be obvious how this nonsense could play into the hands of the enemy. If the state of the church and the country, after 100 years of DF influence are not convincing enough.


Take care

Hitch

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 04:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93232#post93232)
Manasseh:

Hi All

Just thought i'd let you know that many dispensationalists believe that Christ will be in Heaven during the Millenium, e.g. An extract from a paper call "The Lord will reign" by Mr Fereday.

"Here a difficulty may present itself to the minds of some of our readers. It has been asked: "Are the heavenly saints to be actually on the earth during the kingdom?" By no means; our home is above. Even Christ Himself will not be personally present on earth throughout that period, else where the need for a "prince" to represent Him in Jerusalem? (Ezek. 44: 1-3; Ezek. 45: 7-25, &c.)."

I don't know what mid act Dispys believe, but those who are in the vein of John Darby don't have a problem with Christ being in heaven during the 1000 year reign.

regards
Manasseh Exactly right M. There was a similar teaching at DTS in the 60s . The notion being that the Millennium is entirely a Jewish affair and the Saints are in Heaven during that time.

But that doesnt sell books as well as the Lindsey version.

Take care

Hitch

[Bill the Cat]

Yesterday @ 10:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93882#post93882)
Hitch:


As usual your premise is faulty.

Thanks for the confidence. :btc:

Death was defeated by the Resurrection of Christ emphasis mine, in his case in the physical and on our behalf, judicially. This is fully realized at the general resurrection, which Jesus spoke of. Your premise is faulty because in the case in question spiritual death was outside the possible.

And your premise is faulty.

Heb 2:8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

So if Death has been conquered by Jesus, then this verse is complete:

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Death is the last enemy, and then Jesus hands authority over to the Father. Jesus must reign until Death has been put under His feet. If this has already happened, then Jesus does not reign any longer.

Just as Christ was Savior at his birth, it is obvious that he lived many years before the cross, and there were specifics that had to be met . And so just as we have a part in his (bodily) Resurrection many years will pass until the bodily Resurrection of mankind.

Christ has been the savior from the foundation of the world. I agree that we have a part in Christ’s resurrection in that we no longer need fear Death, as it has lost it’s sting. There will be a resurrection of the Saints before the 1000 years and another general one after.

He was very specific when he said a time would come when 'all that are in the graves' will respond.

And they will, but we as the Bride will not be in the grave then.
I reckon this illustrates the basic dislike of the DF system to account for the historical process. In fact if DF notions of the Parenthetical Church Age are correct the church is guest in history rather than the shared center of it. It should be obvious how this nonsense could play into the hands of the enemy. If the state of the church and the country, after 100 years of DF influence are not convincing enough.

And what has that to do with the price of rice in China? :btc:

[Jacob]

Today @ 06:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94371#post94371)
Bill the Cat:


Thanks for the confidence. :btc:


Unlike your detractors, You've almost convinced me again to begin calling myself a Dispensationalist.:thumb:



Heb 2:8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

So if Death has been conquered by Jesus, then this verse is complete:

Now that is truly a verse which is easily understood.



1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Death is the last enemy, and then Jesus hands authority over to the Father. Jesus must reign until Death has been put under His feet. If this has already happened, then Jesus does not reign any longer.



Bill, you've posted this thought several times. Once again you're looking to clear & easily understood passages to support your position, along with correct (not forced) explanation & application of it, which seems hard to get around.

Bill, thanks for pursuing this debate.

Jacob

[Bill the Cat]

Jacob et al, Like I said, I love a challenge :btc:

[Jacob]

Today @ 07:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94507#post94507)
Bill the Cat:

Jacob et al, Like I said, I love a challenge :btc:

You'd have to be BORG to have confidence in getting me to fully re-identify myself as a Dispensationalist. But you've made progress, & haven't even been trying!! :help: !!

Jacob

[Bill the Cat]

Just ignore Tim LeHay, and his brood. I like Hilton Sutton much better.

The Book of Revelation Revealed. ISBN 157794306-6 is a good read, albeit kind of easy.

[Jason Gastrich]

So, this verse supposedly tells us that the Millennium reign will be in Heaven and not on Earth? Here it is, again:

Eph 1:20-21 – “…which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.”

Saying that this verse tells us there won't be an earthly reign is surely an attempt at exegesis that quickly turns into eisegesis. Yes? It is an ENORMOUS stretch to insert these opinions into scripture and only someone with a bias that was searching for such a thing would even dream up such a thing.

Here are the scriptures before these verses (it's unwise to try and understand a passage of scripture from the word "which" . . . there was obviously something important beforehand).

Verses 15-23 read, "Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18the eyes of your £understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

It surely cannot be argued that we were given specific details about the Millennial reign of Christ (or that it was denied). Dee Dee has taken a passage of scripture where Paul is talking about some people and their faith and tried to pull from it a statement about the lack of a future, Millennial reign of Christ from the Earth.

Since a whole lot of thought wasn't put into this assertion, I'm not going to go into great detail to address it. And excuse me if a great deal of thought was put into it. The post about it was relatively brief, so it doesn't appear to be well-thought-out. It is just a ludicrous jump and insertion.

JG

[JackS]

Double Yikes!

:argh: :argh:

Jason, Dee Dee did not use Eph 1:20-21 by its self. She used Psalm 110 with Ehp and Cor 25 as support.

When God says something once it's important. When God repeats something 13 times in the NT it is very important! In fact, as far as I know Psalm 110 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. That makes it VERY IMPORTANT!

So if you take Eph 1:20-21 all by its self even in context as you rightly pointed out you are correct its a stretch. But that is NOT what Dee Dee did. She put it in reference to the most quoted OT scripture in the NT and that gives it weight!

But this all goes back to my post about how one looks at the Bible. Since Psalm 110 is central and our intrepetating method will not allow it to be any other way. Repetition must take presedence and there is no more repetition that Psalm 110.
Thus UNTIL means UNTIL and all other scripture about last things must line up with this most quoted verse.

Psalm 110 is one of the most important verses in the Bible and yet so few even have it central in their belief system.

Jason said:
"Since a whole lot of thought wasn't put into this assertion, I'm not going to go into great detail to address it. "

Subjective and unprovable and really has no business in a civil discussion. :ddw:

:yipee: :yipee: :yipee:
I love these icon things!

[JackS]

:bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

Hey Jason like your links! Good stuff! Way to bonk the atheist!

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 07:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95109#post95109)
JackS:

Jason, Dee Dee did not use Eph 1:20-21 by its self. She used Psalm 110 with Ehp and Cor 25 as support.

When God says something once it's important. When God repeats something 13 times in the NT it is very important! In fact, as far as I know Psalm 110 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. That makes it VERY IMPORTANT!

So if you take Eph 1:20-21 all by its self even in context as you rightly pointed out you are correct its a stretch. But that is NOT what Dee Dee did. She put it in reference to the most quoted OT scripture in the NT and that gives it weight!

But this all goes back to my post about how one looks at the Bible. Since Psalm 110 is central and our intrepetating method will not allow it to be any other way. Repetition must take presedence and there is no more repetition that Psalm 110.
Thus UNTIL means UNTIL and all other scripture about last things must line up with this most quoted verse.

Psalm 110 is one of the most important verses in the Bible and yet so few even have it central in their belief system.



I still don't follow how this verse is so controversial. Jesus will rule on Earth. Psalms 110:2 spells that out clearly. :btc:

Psa 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
Psa 110:2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."

In the midst means in the middle, among. He will be in the midst of his enemies when he is ruling. They will be subject to Him. Are His enemies in Heaven? No. They are here on Earth.

Psalm 110:5-7 explains what WILL happen

The last verses of this Psalm we understand to refer to the future victories of the Priest-King. He shall not for ever sit in waiting posture, but shall come Into the fight to end the weary war by his own victorious presence. He will lead the final charge in person; his own right hand and his holy arm shall get unto him the victory.
Charles Spurgeon's The Treasury of David

In order for Jesus to lead the final charge to set up the Millenial Kingdom, He will be here "in person", as Spurgeon put it.

[JackS]

Hey Cat Man,
Who ever said it was controversial?:shrug:

Did you just happen to skip right past verse 1? Sit at my right hand until! Where exactly is the location of the right hand of God?

The demonstration of Christ's power on earth will come from or through Zion. The church is the physical representation of Christ's rule on earth. How do we know that Zion represents the church now? I Cor 15 tells us when Christ's rule began. It began at the resurrection. So Zion cannot be Isreal, becuase it is a pagan nation today. So how can Christ rule through those who do not even believe in him? As Galations 3:29 say, "If you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed heirs to what was promised."
Zion is also a type of the people of God. Who are the people of God today? The Christians.

Psalm 110:5-7 explains what is happening. Also notice in verse 5, once again we have , "The Lord on thy right hand." (Youngs literal translation) So now we have twice in Psalm 110 the location of the regin. The right hand of God.:ddw: :ddw:

[Bill the Cat]

I LOVE THIS STUFF!! :btc:

Today @ 07:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95965#post95965)
JackS:

Hey Cat Man,
Who ever said it was controversial?:shrug:

Did you just happen to skip right past verse 1? Sit at my right hand until! Where exactly is the location of the right hand of God?

Continue the verse please. …Until all enemies are put under your feet. According to some posters here, that has already happened.

Dee Dee said:
No, they were postionally placed there, and they will be actually placed there at His second coming which is the end of His reign

Hitch said:
Death was defeated by the Resurrection of Christ, in his case in the physical and on our behalf , judicially.

So according to preterists here, Death has been defeated by Christ. Death is the last enemy. Death has been defeated and is the last enemy, so according to 1 Cor 15:23-26 (which quotes Psalm 110)
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

First, 1 Cor was written after the resurrection, so Jesus did not defeat Death once and for all at His resurrection, as our preterists like to believe. Death is still a reality.

Second, if Death was defeated once for all at the cross, whether you call it judiciously or positionally, then according to 1 Cor 15:24, Jesus no longer ruled after the resurrection.

The demonstration of Christ's power on earth will come from or through Zion. The church is the physical representation of Christ's rule on earth. How do we know that Zion represents the church now? I Cor 15 tells us when Christ's rule began.

1 Cor also tells us when it will end. When Death is defeated. If that has happened, then the end has come and Christ no longer rules. See 1 Cor 15:24


It began at the resurrection.

So the Millenium began before the Tribulation? This is a first for me. The trib was 70 AD, and the Res was 30-33 AD (depending on who you ask) This is a total load, sorry.


So Zion cannot be Isreal, becuase it is a pagan nation today. So how can Christ rule through those who do not even believe in him?

Because they will turn back to Him.

As Galations 3:29 say, "If you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed heirs to what was promised."
Zion is also a type of the people of God. Who are the people of God today? The Christians

But God has made it abundantly clear that He will never completely sever them and not allow them back..

[JackS]

Man I lost my entire post! Major Bummer!


Cat man said:
But God has made it abundantly clear that He will never completely sever them and not allow them back..

Very true, but they will become Christians. Being a Jew does nothing for them today.

We agree about death. I believe that Christ's reign is progressive. Isaiah 9:6-7 is about Christ's reign. Look at verse 7:
"To the increase of princely power, and peace , there is no end."

So while Christ is reigning his power and kingdom will increase. So throughout history his enemies will be made His footstool and His power and influence will grow in time. The last enemy will be death. So we agree here.

Sorry I had much more detail in my last post, but I have to leave.