The Fruit of Good & Evil

[mentored1]

Hello folks...

I've been reading and pondering the events regarding the "Fall of Man", "Original Sin", et al... I have some questions and comments that are up for open discussion - keep it real, no arguments with links or cut-n-paste commentaries alright? Use your head! :bonk:

If you don't know my general demeanor rest assured I'm not atheistic in any sense - my agnosticism is one pertaining to a literal spirituality and the proof that God does or does not exist. Belief and Faith do not require proof and are not part of my concern. My desire (and I hope yours in this thread) is to better understand some of the interpretations and meanings in certain Biblical passages.

Onward...

(1) God had given instruction to Adam & Eve not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil upon pain of death.

Assuming, as the Bible confirms, that sin brought death then death was unknown to Adam & Eve when God informed them of the consequence. How could they have understood what death meant or what it entailed? How could they have recognized this "death" as something undesirable?

Even when the serpent explains to them they 'shall not surely die' how could they understand what it was talking about? Are we to assume there was knowledge of morality already present - but how would this jive with the rest of the story?

(2) If your answer was "Because God said it was bad" (even if it's not, read on) then another question:

If Adam & Eve did not possess the 'knowledge of good and evil' - they did not know right from wrong or how to identify either one (ignorance, innocence, et al) then how could they have understood what God meant by saying something was forbidden, evil, etc?

Did they understand it was evil to disobey God's command if they had no knowledge of evil? Conversely could they know that following God's command was good and desirable if they had no way of discerning the good?

Unless I am mistaken only after eating the fruit did they come to 'know good and evil' - learning, discerning, gaining insight, etc. Why were they held accountable for disobeying / rebelling against God if they did not know what evil was, or how to discern it, before eating of the fruit?

(3) How did the serpent understand good and evil? Did he learn it from God - for who else was in the heavens at the time? If it is impossible he learned it from God did he create it from himself (can he create something that God cannot)? Did the knowledge of good and evil proceed from God into his creation?

I've encountered an answer that God can create the possibility of evil by giving free will - but free will without information (knowledge of good and evil) doesn't make sense (at least to most humans). Even if evil is as simple as the 'contradiction of God' then God creates it by decreeing that disobedience and rebellion to his will is evil. Either way where does the 'knowledge of good and evil' originate?

If God has no evil in him how could he create something that could grant the knowledge of good and evil? And why would eating of it make Adam & Eve like God, knowing good and evil? Does God know evil - does he have the ability to discern, identify, and learn good and evil as the word 'knowing' suggests?

That's all for now - thanks for looking. :thumb:

Take care

[Tladatsi]

Alright, I'll give a go.

Onward...

"(1) God had given instruction to Adam & Eve not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil upon pain of death.

Assuming, as the Bible confirms, that sin brought death then death was unknown to Adam & Eve when God informed them of the consequence. How could they have understood what death meant or what it entailed? How could they have recognized this "death" as something undesirable?"

Adam and Eve were not imortal and did not lose immortality when they disobeyed Yahweh. If one reads Gen 3:22-24 Yahweh says that He is concerned that Adam and Eve, now having the knowledge of good and evil, might now take the fruit of the tree of life and then become immortal. So Yahweh expells Adam and Eve from Eden to prevent them from becomming immortal, and thus too much like Yahweh Himself.

"Even when the serpent explains to them they 'shall not surely die' how could they understand what it was talking about? Are we to assume there was knowledge of morality already present - but how would this jive with the rest of the story?"

"If Adam & Eve did not possess the 'knowledge of good and evil' - they did not know right from wrong or how to identify either one (ignorance, innocence, et al) then how could they have understood what God meant by saying something was forbidden, evil, etc?

Did they understand it was evil to disobey God's command if they had no knowledge of evil? Conversely could they know that following God's command was good and desirable if they had no way of discerning the good?

Unless I am mistaken only after eating the fruit did they come to 'know good and evil' - learning, discerning, gaining insight, etc. Why were they held accountable for disobeying / rebelling against God if they did not know what evil was, or how to discern it, before eating of the fruit?"

You hit the irony of the story right on the head, they were unable understand the gravity of their action except by taking the action

(3) How did the serpent understand good and evil? Did he learn it from God - for who else was in the heavens at the time? If it is impossible he learned it from God did he create it from himself (can he create something that God cannot)? Did the knowledge of good and evil proceed from God into his creation?

The snake is subtile, crafty, clever, smooth if you like. I knows the score. The Bible does not explain why the snake knows but Adam and Eve do not.

I've encountered an answer that God can create the possibility of evil by giving free will - but free will without information (knowledge of good and evil) doesn't make sense (at least to most humans).

Yahweh did not want Adam and Eve to have free will, that is why He told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How can anyone have free will without that knowledge. It was the snake who tricked Adam and Even into obtain free will

[/i]Even if evil is as simple as the 'contradiction of God' then God creates it by decreeing that disobedience and rebellion to his will is evil. Either way where does the 'knowledge of good and evil' originate?[/i]

Yahweh is the source of both good and evil. You can read my posts on that one.

If God has no evil in him how could he create something that could grant the knowledge of good and evil? And why would eating of it make Adam & Eve like God, knowing good and evil? Does God know evil - does he have the ability to discern, identify, and learn good and evil as the word 'knowing' suggests?

Good and evil are tools in God's hands.

[Ryokan]

Hello folks...

I've been reading and pondering the events regarding the "Fall of Man", "Original Sin", et al... I have some questions and comments that are up for open discussion - keep it real, no arguments with links or cut-n-paste commentaries alright? Use your head! :bonk:

If you don't know my general demeanor rest assured I'm not atheistic in any sense - my agnosticism is one pertaining to a literal spirituality and the proof that God does or does not exist. Belief and Faith do not require proof and are not part of my concern. My desire (and I hope yours in this thread) is to better understand some of the interpretations and meanings in certain Biblical passages.

Onward... Sounds good.

(1) God had given instruction to Adam & Eve not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil upon pain of death.

Assuming, as the Bible confirms, that sin brought death then death was unknown to Adam & Eve when God informed them of the consequence. How could they have understood what death meant or what it entailed? How could they have recognized this "death" as something undesirable?

Even when the serpent explains to them they 'shall not surely die' how could they understand what it was talking about? Are we to assume there was knowledge of morality already present - but how would this jive with the rest of the story? Ultimately, I see the story here as a parable. What it is saying, for me, anyway (I am a baby Christian, so I don't really know, and in any event I always speak for me and me alone) is that all sin, from the first one, till now, is ultimately about man ursurping God's role in the universe. We want to have the knowledge of good and evil, to control all of destiny, rather than trust in God. And so we exert power over others, try to over God, in negitive ways to conform reality to our liking, not Gods. Or, more simply, we don't trust God, and are disobiedient. And what our sins do is compound, over and over, so that the world and situation we live inis saturated in sin, and we often lack the ability to not sin. So, original sin is a poison on our human world, making it impossible not to disobey and distance ourselves from our God. Which is where Jesus comes in. He creates a bridge of forgiveness and understanding, and gives us a Way by which we can get back to God despite the poison of all that sin.

(2) If your answer was "Because God said it was bad" (even if it's not, read on) then another question:

If Adam & Eve did not possess the 'knowledge of good and evil' - they did not know right from wrong or how to identify either one (ignorance, innocence, et al) then how could they have understood what God meant by saying something was forbidden, evil, etc?

Did they understand it was evil to disobey God's command if they had no knowledge of evil? Conversely could they know that following God's command was good and desirable if they had no way of discerning the good?

Unless I am mistaken only after eating the fruit did they come to 'know good and evil' - learning, discerning, gaining insight, etc. Why were they held accountable for disobeying / rebelling against God if they did not know what evil was, or how to discern it, before eating of the fruit?
I think that it is used in the since that, man hoped to eat the tree and assert their desires as good and evil.
(3) How did the serpent understand good and evil? Did he learn it from God - for who else was in the heavens at the time? If it is impossible he learned it from God did he create it from himself (can he create something that God cannot)? Did the knowledge of good and evil proceed from God into his creation? For me, the snake is human temptation and weakness, personified in Satan.

I've encountered an answer that God can create the possibility of evil by giving free will - but free will without information (knowledge of good and evil) doesn't make sense (at least to most humans). Even if evil is as simple as the 'contradiction of God' then God creates it by decreeing that disobedience and rebellion to his will is evil. Either way where does the 'knowledge of good and evil' originate? For me, by the time man evolved to a point where good and evil were meaningful, he already knew quite a bit.

If God has no evil in him how could he create something that could grant the knowledge of good and evil? And why would eating of it make Adam & Eve like God, knowing good and evil? Does God know evil - does he have the ability to discern, identify, and learn good and evil as the word 'knowing' suggests? Its a metaphor. its not airtight and perfect.

That's all for now - thanks for looking. :thumb:

Take care
Reading peoples thoughts and responding is why we are here. Well, that and the free beer.

[Tladatsi]

"Did he learn it from God - for who else was in the heavens at the time? If it is impossible he learned it from God did he create it from himself (can he create something that God cannot)? Did the knowledge of good and evil proceed from God into his creation?"

In the OT,God is the source of all things, both good and evil. Exodus 32:14 "So Yahweh withdrew his threat and didn't bring against his people the evil (ha-raah) he had threatened". In Isiah 45:7 it says "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil (raa), I Yahweh, do all these things". Deuteronomy 30:15 says " See, I have set before thee this day life (ha-khayim) and good (ha-tob), and death (ha-mevet) and evil (ha-ra)." In Judges 9:23 God sends an "evil spirit " (rukh raah) between Sechem and Abimelek as punishment for the crimes of Jerub-Baals sons. Four times in 1 Samuel 16 Saul is afflicted by an "evil sprit from God" (rukh-Elohim raah). In Neh 13:18 it says "and did not our God bring all this evil (ha-raah) upon us ". Job asks his wife rhetorically "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not [also] receive evil (ha-raa)"

[gnosticmary]

Hello folks...

I've been reading and pondering the events regarding the "Fall of Man", "Original Sin", et al... I have some questions and comments that are up for open discussion - keep it real, no arguments with links or cut-n-paste commentaries alright? Use your head! :bonk:

If you don't know my general demeanor rest assured I'm not atheistic in any sense - my agnosticism is one pertaining to a literal spirituality and the proof that God does or does not exist. Belief and Faith do not require proof and are not part of my concern. My desire (and I hope yours in this thread) is to better understand some of the interpretations and meanings in certain Biblical passages.

Onward...

(1) God had given instruction to Adam & Eve not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil upon pain of death.

Assuming, as the Bible confirms, that sin brought death then death was unknown to Adam & Eve when God informed them of the consequence. How could they have understood what death meant or what it entailed? How could they have recognized this "death" as something undesirable?

Even when the serpent explains to them they 'shall not surely die' how could they understand what it was talking about? Are we to assume there was knowledge of morality already present - but how would this jive with the rest of the story?

(2) If your answer was "Because God said it was bad" (even if it's not, read on) then another question:

If Adam & Eve did not possess the 'knowledge of good and evil' - they did not know right from wrong or how to identify either one (ignorance, innocence, et al) then how could they have understood what God meant by saying something was forbidden, evil, etc?

Did they understand it was evil to disobey God's command if they had no knowledge of evil? Conversely could they know that following God's command was good and desirable if they had no way of discerning the good?

Unless I am mistaken only after eating the fruit did they come to 'know good and evil' - learning, discerning, gaining insight, etc. Why were they held accountable for disobeying / rebelling against God if they did not know what evil was, or how to discern it, before eating of the fruit?

(3) How did the serpent understand good and evil? Did he learn it from God - for who else was in the heavens at the time? If it is impossible he learned it from God did he create it from himself (can he create something that God cannot)? Did the knowledge of good and evil proceed from God into his creation?

I've encountered an answer that God can create the possibility of evil by giving free will - but free will without information (knowledge of good and evil) doesn't make sense (at least to most humans). Even if evil is as simple as the 'contradiction of God' then God creates it by decreeing that disobedience and rebellion to his will is evil. Either way where does the 'knowledge of good and evil' originate?

If God has no evil in him how could he create something that could grant the knowledge of good and evil? And why would eating of it make Adam & Eve like God, knowing good and evil? Does God know evil - does he have the ability to discern, identify, and learn good and evil as the word 'knowing' suggests?

That's all for now - thanks for looking. :thumb:

Take care


Hello mentored1.

There is a real feeling of innocence, of the purity found in childlikeness, in your words. It is from this place that we can see, that we can obtain right understanding.

And if I may, then, offer this for your consideration.

Indeed Adam and Eve did not know about evil, nor do any of the God's children existing in His divine unfallen realms. This is why satan has been so successful in deceiving God's human children.

When they were in the Garden, they lived in Bliss, connected to the Body of Christ (Tree of Life) in communion with God and all His creation.

There was though already a part of creation that had been tempted and deceived by Lucifer, and humanity and its Garden made the choice to sacrifice themselves in service to God and create a 'hospita'l for the other fallen souls. In their innocence and ignorance of evil they surely thought that by bringing the lost souls and their evil into the Garden, where they would be able to partake of the Tree of Life and commune with God/Christ, they would find salvation.

And so by invitation of humanity and its Garden, evil came into the Garden, in the form of temptation (the serpent) and knowledge of self (tree of knowledge of good and evil). Infortunately pure and innocent humanity could not withstand the temptation and so succumbed and all were cast from the Garden.

Even if this story does not resonate with you, mentored1, please do not abandon your purity and innocence of thought. For it is only as a child that we may Know God and His Kingdom.


mary

[mentored1]

Thanks for the reply T...

Most of what you commented on I find no case for argument - just a couple of short comments!


Adam and Eve were not imortal and did not lose immortality when they disobeyed Yahweh. If one reads Gen 3:22-24 Yahweh says that He is concerned that Adam and Eve, now having the knowledge of good and evil, might now take the fruit of the tree of life and then become immortal. So Yahweh expells Adam and Eve from Eden to prevent them from becomming immortal, and thus too much like Yahweh Himself.

But doesn't this event (God's desire for them not to take immortality) occur AFTER they've already eaten of the fruit of good and evil, hence sin and death have already entered? I may be mistaken but at this point in the story they have already brought death and lost their "immortality".

The snake is subtile, crafty, clever, smooth if you like. I knows the score. The Bible does not explain why the snake knows but Adam and Eve do not.

Indeed... The mystery of iniquity...

Take care!

[mentored1]

Hail Ryokan...

Your perspective seems to incorporate some acceptance of metaphor and symbol rather than all-out literalism... That certainly helps me understand your POV better... Indeed it seems that a large portion of the fall of man story makes more sense as metaphor and symbol than a literal sequence of events...

Again, thanks for your replies!

Sounds good. Ultimately, I see the story here as a parable. What it is saying, for me, anyway (I am a baby Christian, so I don't really know, and in any event I always speak for me and me alone) is that all sin, from the first one, till now, is ultimately about man ursurping God's role in the universe. We want to have the knowledge of good and evil, to control all of destiny, rather than trust in God. And so we exert power over others, try to over God, in negitive ways to conform reality to our liking, not Gods. Or, more simply, we don't trust God, and are disobiedient. And what our sins do is compound, over and over, so that the world and situation we live inis saturated in sin, and we often lack the ability to not sin. So, original sin is a poison on our human world, making it impossible not to disobey and distance ourselves from our God. Which is where Jesus comes in. He creates a bridge of forgiveness and understanding, and gives us a Way by which we can get back to God despite the poison of all that sin. I think that it is used in the since that, man hoped to eat the tree and assert their desires as good and evil. For me, the snake is human temptation and weakness, personified in Satan.
For me, by the time man evolved to a point where good and evil were meaningful, he already knew quite a bit.
Its a metaphor. its not airtight and perfect.
Reading peoples thoughts and responding is why we are here. Well, that and the free beer.

[mentored1]

Well met mary... Thank you for your replies.


There is a real feeling of innocence, of the purity found in childlikeness, in your words. It is from this place that we can see, that we can obtain right understanding.

:blush: Why thank you... I don't know if I feel that way but I certainly think that way. I haven't reached judgment or conclusion on any of these matters so leave them open to inquiry and contemplation.

Indeed Adam and Eve did not know about evil, nor do any of the God's children existing in His divine unfallen realms. This is why satan has been so successful in deceiving God's human children.

When they were in the Garden, they lived in Bliss, connected to the Body of Christ (Tree of Life) in communion with God and all His creation.

There was though already a part of creation that had been tempted and deceived by Lucifer, and humanity and its Garden made the choice to sacrifice themselves in service to God and create a 'hospita'l for the other fallen souls. In their innocence and ignorance of evil they surely thought that by bringing the lost souls and their evil into the Garden, where they would be able to partake of the Tree of Life and commune with God/Christ, they would find salvation.

:demure: Then what is Lucifer? If God is all from the very beginning from whence this character of deception in Lucifer? Your further explanation here is very interesting - I will certainly take the time to think about it. :wink:

And so by invitation of humanity and its Garden, evil came into the Garden, in the form of temptation (the serpent) and knowledge of self (tree of knowledge of good and evil). Infortunately pure and innocent humanity could not withstand the temptation and so succumbed and all were cast from the Garden.

Why was mankind held responsible and cast out if they did it out of innocence? Was God unwilling or incapable of repairing the damage?

Even if this story does not resonate with you, mentored1, please do not abandon your purity and innocence of thought. For it is only as a child that we may Know God and His Kingdom.


I'm not sure I can abandon it... I've found nothing to be sure of so I search ever more...

Take care - thank you

[Tladatsi]

"But doesn't this event (God's desire for them not to take immortality) occur AFTER they've already eaten of the fruit of good and evil, hence sin and death have already entered? I may be mistaken but at this point in the story they have already brought death and lost their "immortality".

The key is Gen 3:22 which says in English "...What if they eat the fruit of the tree of life? Then they will live forever!" The sentance only makes sense if they are currently mortal and would become immortal if they ate the fruit of the tree of life.

As an aside, there is an elaborate pun here. The snake is subtile- a smooth operator. The Hebrew word is "arum". Well Adam and Eve are noted for being naked, which in Hebrew is "ey-arum", which they did not know. So it took the arum snake (smooth-tongued perhaps) to show the people that they were ey-arum (smooth-skined perhaps).


Indeed... The mystery of iniquity...

Take care![/QUOTE]

[gnosticmary]

Well met mary... Thank you for your replies.



:blush: Why thank you... I don't know if I feel that way but I certainly think that way. I haven't reached judgment or conclusion on any of these matters so leave them open to inquiry and contemplation.



:demure: Then what is Lucifer? If God is all from the very beginning from whence this character of deception in Lucifer? Your further explanation here is very interesting - I will certainly take the time to think about it. :wink:

Hi mentored1.

Lucifer is the name given to the first created being who started thinking in terms of his "I" (see Isaiah 14). Thinking in terms of our I is turning away from God, towards the darkness of self seeking, an image given to us daily as the earth turns away from the sun.

Lucifer is also the designation of all fallen consciousnesses/created beings, those who have succumb to the temptation of the first Lucifer or to any subsequent luciferic being - luciferic simply meaning that the being serves its own self interests instead of God's Will. And it is in its self interest that others also fall.



Why was mankind held responsible and cast out if they did it out of innocence? Was God unwilling or incapable of repairing the damage?

Even in our innocence/ignorance, God's Laws are immutable.

It is not so much that we were cast out of the Garden, only that we could no longer dwell in the immovable kingdom. It is impossible for evil (self or "I" perception) to dwell amidst the divine (God perception). Once evil enters our being - a single thought in consideration of ourselves - we no longer can hold our position in God's Kingdom. Just thinking about ourself is turning our back to God.

Repentence is turning back towards Him, all thoughts of self vanished from our being and then we, like the earth each dawn, turn back to face again the sun that has always been there.

These are the purposes of Jesus' commandments, to bring us to repentence or finally declaring, Thy Will not mine be done.

Consider, mentored1, the efforts that Christ took to redeem the innocent, deceived souls that were brought into humanity's Garden - and the sacrifice that humanity made. Humanity was living in Bliss in communion with Christ, but was willing to allow its Garden to be 'quarantined' from the divine Kingdom, so that these lost souls could come and dwell there, thinking innocently that doing so would give them opportunity for redemption. This is the Love that exists in all those who abide in Christ. No thought of self. Willingly sacrificing themselves for the benefit of others. And such innocence does not comprehend evil and is easily deceived and manipulated.

Humanity is not the only innocents who have been deceived, not the only innocents whom Christ is attempting to reach through the Plan of Salvation.

What is about to occur on earth is a major part of Christ's plan. A piece of Lucifer's Kingdom, a piece that has become a trap, ensnaring many more souls than just humanity, is going to be cut off from the Source, destroyed, eliminating this world as a trap for God's children and a source of food for Lucifer and all his minions and principalities.

I'm not sure I can abandon it... I've found nothing to be sure of so I search ever more...

Take care - thank you


Good!

You to, mentored1.


mary

[zorathruster]

(1) God had given instruction to Adam & Eve not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil upon pain of death.

The actual quote is:

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now did Adam eat of the fruit? Did he "surely die" "in the day" that he eatest thereof? Obviously God lied to Adam

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/images/temptation.jpg
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did Eve die on the day she ate the fruit? Or did she 'not die' on that day in accordance with the words of the serpent? Were her eyes opened and she knew of good and evil in accordance with the words of the serpent? Everything the serpent said would happen did happen. The serpent told the truth.




If Adam & Eve did not possess the 'knowledge of good and evil' - they did not know right from wrong or how to identify either one (ignorance, innocence, et al) then how could they have understood what God meant by saying something was forbidden, evil, etc?



Exactly correct, they couldn't have understood the difference of right and wrong and they could not have known eating the fruit was wrong. Yet the judeo christian religion maintains that not only Adam but all mankind is condemned for this act of an unknowing entity. That is the ultimate atrocity of the whole myth.

[gnosticmary]

The actual quote is:

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now did Adam eat of the fruit? Did he "surely die" "in the day" that he eatest thereof? Obviously God lied to Adam

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/images/temptation.jpg
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did Eve die on the day she ate the fruit? Or did she 'not die' on that day in accordance with the words of the serpent? Were her eyes opened and she knew of good and evil in accordance with the words of the serpent? Everything the serpent said would happen did happen. The serpent told the truth.




Exactly correct, they couldn't have understood the difference of right and wrong and they could not have known eating the fruit was wrong. Yet the judeo christian religion maintains that not only Adam but all mankind is condemned for this act of an unknowing entity. That is the ultimate atrocity of the whole myth.


Hello zorathruster.

Yes. What Christianity has done with this story is an atrocity! And worse there are many of us who just accepted what we were told by those professing to know.

Across many cultures and religions, we have parallels of this same story...each given as an attempt to explain something inexplicable in human language. However, the interpretation of the Genesis story that is commonly accepted is actually a distortion by the same 'serpent' who deceived Eve.

Partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is referring to turning away from God, and seeking after our own desires and aversions (what we as an "I", a self identity, perceive as good or evil for ourselves, hence we become self focused, seekers to satisfy ourselves). And when Eve did that, she indeed did die, for she became cut off from her True Food Source, the Heavenly Manna and Living Waters that were part of the Tree of Life, otherwise known as the Body (or Family) of Christ.

Physical birth and death has little to do with this story (it is an eventual consequence of Spiritual death, but not spoken of directly here).

And again, you are right. Adam and Eve being as pure innocent children did not comprehend the depths and deceptions of evil, nor what Spritual death meant, for they had only Known Life since they were created. This is why the serpent was able to have its way with her and why humanity continues to be deceived by it, not even realizing they are dead and living in the world of the walking dead!

And Adam and Eve were not 'punished' but by divine Law had to suffer the consequences. No created being can hold their position among the divine if their thoughts and desires are for the self.

It for this reason that we must repent, we must deny the self, in order to return to Unity with the Body of Christ.


mary

[zorathruster]

Partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is referring to turning away from God, and seeking after our own desires and aversions (what we as an "I", a self identity, perceive as good or evil for ourselves, hence we become self focused, seekers to satisfy ourselves). And when Eve did that, she indeed did die, for she became cut off from her True Food Source, the Heavenly Manna and Living Waters that were part of the Tree of Life, otherwise known as the Body (or Family) of Christ.

Physical birth and death has little to do with this story (it is an eventual consequence of Spiritual death, but not spoken of directly here).



If this story is analogy, then anyone can re-interpret analogy in any correlative fashion they choose. The words either mean what they say or the interpretation is left to each individual as they see fit. I see the analogy as one of the God (analogy to the Great Turtle) who wishes his creations to live happily in the garden of eden (analogy to the ocean). When you insist on your ability to "interpret" the work as you desire, you open the door to allowing others to do the same. If you insist that your "interpretation" of a non-specific type of work is true and others are not you are tyranical - which means you are insisting on your own freedoms while restricting the same freedoms of others.



And again, you are right. Adam and Eve being as pure innocent children did not comprehend the depths and deceptions of evil, nor what Spritual death meant, for they had only Known Life since they were created. This is why the serpent was able to have its way with her and why humanity continues to be deceived by it, not even realizing they are dead and living in the world of the walking dead!

mary


Nice dodge but if that is what the words were to mean, those are the words that should have been used. In a perfect work (many claim the bible such a work) the use of analogy or any "required interpretation" of which your description of "dead and living in the world of the walking dead" falls into becomes your personal interpretation of a non-specific piece of work. Since you have admitted by requiring interpretation that the work is only analogy it allows a broad range of interpretations of which yours is one and mine is one and 6 billion other interpretations are just as valid.



And Adam and Eve were not 'punished' but by divine Law had to suffer the consequences. No created being can hold their position among the divine if their thoughts and desires are for the self.

mary

OK lets see if this "interpretation" holds water. If I take a desirable thing, lets say food and place it infront of a "non-conscious" animal lets say a dog, would it be appropriate to punish that dog for eating that desirable thing? Now in my personal morality I don't believe the dog who eats is worthy of punishment or "suffering consequences" of eating. Much less I would not follow that punishment up by punishing that dog's offspring for the transgression of the parent. Yet that is exactly what you promote by your interpretation.

Suppose you were to come across a man beating a puppy. "Why are you beating this puppy?" "Because his great grand sire once ate of some food that I did not want him to eat." And this level of morality is what you attribute to your God! Truly abominable.

Z