Alphabet Equivalents

[GrayPilgrim]

I would like to introduce standardized transliteration so that we can know what the proper alphabets are in transliteration, and so that we can know what we word or words we are talking about. Jaltus, if you could give us a standard Greek transliteration, that would be great.

[GrayPilgrim]

This is how the Hebrew will look if you use the following procedure &#(Appropriate Number Here); using 1488 =א 1489 =ב...1514 = ת That is the unicode. I reccomend you enlarge it to size=4 as reccomended by OS that is [ size = 4 ] & # 1500 ; [ / size ] ommitting the spaces would be ל.

Unicode Letter Transliteration
1488 א )
1489 ב B
1490 ג G
1491 ד D
1492 ה H
1493 ו W
1494 ז Z
1495 ח X
1496 ט +
1497 י Y
1498 ך K
1499 כ K
1500 ל L
1501 ם M
1502 מ M
1503 ן N
1504 נ N
1505 ס S
1506 ע (
1507 ף P
1508 פ P
1509 ץ C
1510 צ C
1511 ק Q
1512 ר R
1513 ש $ Shin
1513 ש & Sin
1514 ת T


VOWELS
patah = A
qametz = F
hireq = I
segol = E
tsere = "
holam = O
qibbuts = U
shureq = W.
schwa = :
holem waw = OW
hateph-pathah = :A
hateph-qametz = :F
hateph-segol = :E

Various Masoretic Marks

maqqeph = -

dagesh = .

rape = = ,

kere = *

qere = **



Feb 14 I completely revampled the system based on that of the system used by The Semantics of Ancinet Hebrew Data Base. (http://homepages.ed.ac.uk/dreimer/SAHD/translit.html)

Mar 5 Added the unicode for the Hebrew Consonants as well.

[yxboom]

That is a great idea. If he wants to make a tranliteration of Greek alphabet. We can get it posted as an announcement so that way it remains at the top of this section at all times. Same thing if you want to set up a Hebrew or Aramaic announcement.

[geebob]

I protest! I want the sephardic transliteration.

[GrayPilgrim]

That is Sephardic. If it were Ashkenazic then the Tav without a dagesh would have been "s", thus bryt is Sephardic and brys is Ashkenazic.

GP

[Jaltus]

Here is what professional exegetes use in communicating to one another (I am on the B-Greek list and this is what we use).

Use capitol letters for nearly all.

A = alpha
B = beta
G = gamma
D = delta
E = epsilon
Z = zeta
H = eta
Q = theta
I = iota
i = iota subscript
K = kappa
L = lambda
M = mu
N = nu
X= xi
O = omicron
P = pi
R = rho
S = sigma
T = tau
U = upsilon
F = phi
X = chi
Y = psi
W = omega

h = rough breathing

Often times, / = acute, \ = grave, I have not seen circumflex used since there are never any difficult circumflexes to figure out (accents are only used when there is a problem with one).

[Gavin]

I hope this thread never gets deleted, as it will be very useful.:read:

[Jaltus]

Hence the sticky.

[geebob]

That is Sephardic.

waw and not vav?

[Gavin]

Hence the sticky.

Ah.:idea:

[GrayPilgrim]

Originally posted by geebob
waw and not vav?

Think of it as German w thus it would be pronounced v, but it is easier as it otherwise might be confused with a bet without a dagesh.

[dizzle]

Hey let Boom know when the translits are final and he will turn it into an announcement.

[geebob]

Think of it as German w thus it would be pronounced v, but it is easier as it otherwise might be confused with a bet without a dagesh.

Do you pronounce it with a german w or american?

[GrayPilgrim]

German w--so American v--as in violin

[Pilgrim]

Dr. Pratico would be so proud!

[GrayPilgrim]

Pilgrim:
Dr. Pratico would be so proud!

Excuse my ignorace, but who is he?

[Pilgrim]

Sorry, he was my Hebrew Prof at Gordon-Conwell. He was the curator of the Semetic Museaum at Harvard as well and an archeologist.

[GrayPilgrim]

Pease note the changes to the Hebrew transliteration to conform to the Semantics of Ancient Hebrew Database (http://homepages.ed.ac.uk/dreimer/SAHD/translit.html)

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

GrayPilgrim:

waw = W
tav = T


Consistency would require you to say taw (not tav), if you're going to say waw.

I'm not familiar with the system of pronunciation suggested here. Transliteration needs to be readable. I would have suggested the followung method:

aleph = ' (except where aleph is aquiescent)
beth = b with dagesh lene, bb with dagesh forte, bh without dagesh
gimmel = g, or gg with dagesh forte
daleth = d with dagesh lene or no dagesh, dd with dagesh forte
heh = h
waw = w
zayin = z, or zz with dagesh
cheth = ch
teth = t (identical with taw I know, but it is just a done thing), or tt with dagesh
yod = y, or yy with dagesh
kaph = k with a dagesh lene, or kk with dagesh forte, or kh with no dagesh
lamed = l, or ll with dagesh
mem = m, or mm with dagesh
nun = n, or nn with dagesh
samekh = s (identical with sin), or ss with dagesh
ayin = `
pe = p with dagesh lenne, ph without dagesh, pp with dagesh forte
tsade = ts
qoph = q, qq with dagesh
resh = r
sin = s, ss with dagesh
shin = sh
taw = t with dagesh lene, th with no dagesh, or tt with dagesh forte

Any thoughts?

[GrayPilgrim]

I was following another standard markup.

My big problem in dealing with Biblical Hebrew is that I learned modern first so I will generally default to Sephardic whereas Christians have generally learned Ashkenazi pronunciations in the past. The reason I had waw and Tav is just that I did not want to write vav and the when I transliterated waw as v make someone wonder if I meant waw or bet with out dagesh. I would actually prefer to have Hebrew fonts, and then transliteration would be easier.

The reason I like ) for aleph and ( for ayen is that makes it easier to distinguish as 'IM could be "with" or "if" whereas )IM is "if" and (IM is "with".

Moreover, because there could be much confusion with homophones I prefer having distinct characters for the different ones so that tet is + and tav is T. As Tet will only have a dagesh as a second root letter in a Pi'el that is not a situation that arises much. I guess the only place where it matters if you have a dagesh transliterated (and then not really) is in bet, kaph and Pe. By using different characters for the different sibilants much confusion can be removed-- was that samekh or sin? Well, if I have S or $ I can distinguish.

Finally I do not like using two letters to represent one letter. For in some situations it could be confusing if I put "...ts..." was that meant to be a tsadi or a closed syllable ending with a tav followed by a syllable that starts with a samekh?


GP

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

GrayPilgrim:
I would actually prefer to have Hebrew fonts, and then transliteration would be easier.

Amen! Transliterating in a plain text enviroment is the bane of my virtual existence!

The reason I like ) for aleph and ( for ayen is that makes it easier to distinguish as 'IM could be "with" or "if" whereas )IM is "if" and (IM is "with".

Well, there is a visual distinction between ' ('aleph) and ` (`ayin), albeit is subtle one. Yet these two symbols are the closest tot he standard transliteration (as in Gesenius, Davideson, Kelly etc).

I grant your point about teth/taw and samekh/sin. I guess I just have a personal aversion to using characters that aren't letters :-)


Finally I do not like using two letters to represent one letter. For in some situations it could be confusing if I put "...ts..." was that meant to be a tsadi or a closed syllable ending with a tav followed by a syllable that starts with a samekh?

Well, tsade is the only example I can think of where that would be a problem (e.g. it would never arise with shin). In the case of a syllable ending in a "t" sound and the next starting with a "s" we could always separate the syllables with a "-". Normally however, a letter that is doubled (with a dagesh) needs to be distinguished from a letter that isn't.

You know people (like me) are beyond help when they're actually willing to debate this one!

Theonomy

[GrayPilgrim]

Theonomy:

Amen! Transliterating in a plain text enviroment is the bane of my virtual existence!



AMEN!

I have always hated transliteration of Hebrew!

[Jaltus]

I think transliteration is a big pain.

[John Reece]

I think transliteration is a big pain.
Ditto.

[The Curtmudgeon]

My Hebrew is zilch, and my Greek only marginally more, but I've worked with Russian (a very long time ago, and forgotten more than I ever knew) and working with transliterating Cyrillic at least gave me an appreciation of the problem here. At one time I kept on hand a book on four different transliteration methods for Russian Cyrillic (let's just not even mention Bulgarian or Serbian or the rest), including detailed discussions of when it is proper, or even required, to use each one, e.g. when (in what context) is it proper/necessary to render the popular composer's name Tchaikovsky or Chaikovskii or even Chaikoffskii? Peter, Petr or Pyotr?

Cyrillic is fun--back in the 60s I'd tell people I could spell 'Khrushchev' with only six letters, and then wait for them to bet me that I couldn't. (For those that don't know Cyrillic: both 'kh' and 'shch' are single Cyrillic letters.)

The (who asked that stoopid Greek monk to get involved, anyhoo? Russian's a great language for illiterates) Curtmudgeon

[MuggleOrSquib]

Jaltus,
How are you distinguishing between Xi (Ksi) between Nu and Omikron, and Xi (Chi) between Fi/Phi and Yi/Psi?

My preference, when possible, is to use capital letters to simulate uncials. Doesn't work with everything though.

EYXAPICTWi COI, EN IHCOY XPICTWi
Bob Griffin

[usarmy770]

Looking at the transliteration of proper nouns in the Septuagint and NT, I'd venture to say that the Sephardic is closer to the original than the Ashkenazic, but neither are correct. I plan to do an in-depth study on this when I get back to the U.S.

As for transliteration, I've always figured that the best method is a phonetic one. There will be some slight inventions, such as 'kh' for Chet and Xi or a '~' to signify an Iota subscript for the preceeding vowel.

As for the Nekudoth, I'd best reccomend basing it on the masoretic text and propose the following:

Kamatz - A
Patah - ah
Tzereh - ay
Segol - E
Shwah - i
Cholam - O
Chirik - I
Kubutz/Shuruk - U
Shuruk/Melupum OO

P.S. I'm new to Theologyweb, what's up with the little images next to people's name's such as cross, goblet, crown etc.?

[usarmy770]

Pilgrim, this Dr. Pratico whom you mention, is he the same one who wrote 'Basics of Biblical Hebrew'?

[dizzle]

P.S. I'm new to Theologyweb, what's up with the little images next to people's name's such as cross, goblet, crown etc.?

The cross is a faith designation for which we have many to represent the different faiths here. The goblet and such are for awards given, and the crown designates a Site Owner. If you mouseover the symbols in that section, it will say what they are for.

[dizzle]

Errr... what happened to those symbols????

<---- scurrying off to PM Boom

[Jaltus]

Jaltus,
How are you distinguishing between Xi (Ksi) between Nu and Omikron, and Xi (Chi) between Fi/Phi and Yi/Psi?

My preference, when possible, is to use capital letters to simulate uncials. Doesn't work with everything though.

EYXAPICTWi COI, EN IHCOY XPICTWi
Bob Griffin

All caps is the way to go.

Nu: N
Omicron: O
Xsi: X
Chi: C
Phi: F
Psi: Y

[President-Elect $cirisme]

Gp already made a list of unicode equivelents?

Geeze that would have saved alot of time had I known that sooner :doh:

[GrayPilgrim]

yup