Christianity and Brain Disorders...

[phlydwg]

Hi... I'm a newbie here... but I'd like some feedback on this issue.

I saw the movie, The Exorcist (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/) for the first time recently... and it was thought provoking in ways that I hadn't expected. A large portion of the movie involves the mother trying to figure out what is wrong with the possessed girl, and exorcism is only the very last resort. Before that the doctors diagnose her with a 'nerve disorder' in which she is overreacting to depression and they put her on Ritalin. Later on they theorize that she might have some sort of brain damage. All her tests turn out normal.

It kinda reminded me of myself... just because I'm taking medication for seizures that (according to my latest EEG) I shouldn't be having, and also meds for some sort of depression or anxiety disorder or whatever.

Mainly it just got me thinking about mental illness and even physical illness, and wondering when to use spiritual remedies and when to use scientific remedies.

A person like myself with epilepsy didn't have it so great in the past... here's a quote from the Wikipedia entry on Epilepsy:

In the past, epilepsy was associated with religious experiences and even demonic possession. Apocryphally, epilepsy has been called the "Sacred Disease" because people thought that epileptic seizures were a form of attack by demons, or that the visions experienced by persons with epilepsy were sent by the gods. However, in many cultures, persons with epilepsy have been stigmatized, shunned, or even imprisoned; in the Salpêtrière, the birthplace of modern neurology, Jean-Martin Charcot found people with epilepsy side-by-side with the mentally retarded, chronic syphilitics, and the criminally insane. In Tanzania to this day, onlookers will not touch a person having an epileptic fit, owing to fear of demons, even if the seizure causes the person to fall into the cooking fire (the flickering light from fire may have provoked the seizure in the first place.) In ancient Rome, epilepsy was known as the Morbus Comitialis ('disease of the assembly hall') and was seen as a curse from the gods.

Stigma continues to this day, in both the public and private spheres, but polls suggest it is generally decreasing with time, at least in the developed world; Hippocrates remarked that epilepsy would be considered divine only until it was understood [3].

So my question is... is there a spiritual aspect to brain disorders? To epilepsy? To depression? I'm sure a lot of people would say that yes, of course -- Jesus heals your depresson...

But man... I'm confused... input? My apologies if you guys have been over this a million times already. Like I said... I'm new.

[Adam]

[QUOTE](the flickering light from fire may have provoked the seizure in the first place.) [/UNQUOTE]
Yes, just as migraines may be caused by strobe lights, etc.
Did you know that most anti-seizure medicines also work to prevent migraines (in my case, in exceedingly tiny doses, otherwise the meds cause
me to have migraines)? As far as I know, no migraine sufferers have strange EEGs. It would seem logical that migraine headaches are a milder form of epilepsy and conversely that epilepsy is an extreme form of migraine. In your case I would reason it that you have too mild a form of epilepsy to show up on EEGs.
Adam

[technomage]

So my question is... is there a spiritual aspect to brain disorders? To epilepsy? To depression?

Not really--though before the advent of science, a lot of people thought there were. Brain disorders are a physical condition, and are no more "spiritual" than high cholesterol or angina.

I'm sure a lot of people would say that yes, of course -- Jesus heals your depresson...

Not me. I've dealt with depression for years--both as a Wiccan and as a Christian. I'll be the last to say that God cannot heal ... but I'll also note that the best treatment for depression (or any other illness, physical or mental) is to continue taking the necessary medicine.

[FreezBee]

It kinda reminded me of myself... just because I'm taking medication for seizures that (according to my latest EEG) I shouldn't be having, and also meds for some sort of depression or anxiety disorder or whatever.

Mainly it just got me thinking about mental illness and even physical illness, and wondering when to use spiritual remedies and when to use scientific remedies.

I don't know, as I teenager I had depressions and seizures, but was simply told to behave, so I decided to avoid contact with other people. In the end I was sent to a mental hospital diagnozed with Neurosis Characterogenes - that's psychopaty to the rest of you - but after those two years it was changed to endogen depression, and I was "released", because I only had symptoms, when on the hospital. I believe more in social causes for mental illnesses - the way other people treat you and so on.


- FreezBee

[Sparko]

First, I don't beleive that Christians can be demon-posessed, since we have the Holy Spirit already 'posessing' us and I don't think God would want to share with a demon.

Second, I think that demon-posession, although very rare, might mimic mental illness, especially to an outsider, but that does not mean that all mental illness is demon-posession. In fact, I would say that 99.9% of the time it is just mental illness caused by natural causes, such as chemical imbalances, brain damage, abuse, drugs, or other such causes.

I am not even convinced that there have been any present day cases of demon posession. I think that the demon posession mentioned in the gospels was because Satan was concentrating on trying to destroying Jesus. It seems that there was a spike of demonic attacks during Jesus' lifetime because such things are hardly mentioned at any other place in the bible.

[phlydwg]

but I'll also note that the best treatment for depression (or any other illness, physical or mental) is to continue taking the necessary medicine.

So my feelings have nothing to do with God? So to him I'm just a robot and I take pills in order to in increase my level of happiness so I can function better? I can hardly believe that.

I don't beleive that Christians can be demon-posessed


I don't either... I didn't mean to suggest that... but Christians can be spiritually attacked, right?

[phlydwg]

I would reason it that you have too mild a form of epilepsy to show up on EEGs.
Adam

That's probably true. By the way, I also have the fancy new VNS implant (http://www.vnstherapy.com/)! I'm part computer!

[Cynic Sage]

I don't know, as I teenager I had depressions and seizures, but was simply told to behave, so I decided to avoid contact with other people. In the end I was sent to a mental hospital diagnozed with Neurosis Characterogenes - that's psychopaty to the rest of you - but after those two years it was changed to endogen depression, and I was "released", because I only had symptoms, when on the hospital. I believe more in social causes for mental illnesses - the way other people treat you and so on.


- FreezBee

Do you mean "psychopathy" or is it not a typo?

[dizzle]

Unless someone to advocate the complete denial of all medical treatment there is no reason to claim that a Christian cannot have a mental malady that requires medical treatment.

The saddling of Christians with the idea that this type of malady is always inherently different and should only be dealt with spiritually is a form of of abuse.

[technomage]

So my feeling have nothing to do with God? So to him I'm just a robot and I take pills in order to in increase my level of happiness so I can function better? I can hardly believe that.

That's because you're looking at depression as a feeling--it's not. Depression is not an emotion: it's a bio-chemical imbalance in the brain that interferes with your brain's ability to function, just as too much sodium in your blood interferes with heart function.

The medicines used to treat depression are not designed to make you feel happy--it's designed to prevent the biochemical imbalance from interfering with your ability to experience emotions. That's why they have me on an SSRI--it doesn't make me any happier. The only thing the SSRI does is try to rebalance the brain cemichals so I can think clearly.

Heck, if "happy pills" made depression go away, then everyone who was depressed would be on Valium--but Valium actually makes depression worse.

[technomage]

Neurosis Characterogenes

That's not a term I'm familiar with--I see it on some Danish websites, but have no idea what it means.

[phlydwg]

That's not a term I'm familiar with--I see it on some Danish websites, but have no idea what it means.

There's something about it here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7976444&dopt=Citation), but it doesn't really give a specific definition.

[Jnthn]

So my question is... is there a spiritual aspect to brain disorders? To epilepsy? To depression? I'm sure a lot of people would say that yes, of course -- Jesus heals your depresson...

But man... I'm confused... input? My apologies if you guys have been over this a million times already. Like I said... I'm new.

I do think that personal sin can manifest itself as illnesses of the mind, but I do acknowledge that there are other causes.

Like Dr. Luke, we need to recognise the difference between "natural" and "spiritual" illnesses, so ultimately resolution becomes a matter of diagnosis.

J

[suffer for joy]

So my question is... is there a spiritual aspect to brain disorders? To epilepsy? To depression? I'm sure a lot of people would say that yes, of course -- Jesus heals your depresson...

There is initially and ultimately a spiritual aspect to everything. What we see in the modern day is the issue of relation first to things that are fleshly, but Jesus put pre-eminence on the things that were spiritual. Do you remember the statement "they have been with us 3 days now and they have not eaten"? In this day in age we would presume to feed the people physically first, but spiritual need comes before the need of the physical.

For example, the spiritual death in Adam also lead to physical decay. It is no different today. Abnormalities, whether physiological, or mental are the result of the warring in the spiritual as it effects the will and circumstances of those in the natural.

I believe that people who say that Christians cannot be possessed or are either being disingenuous, or just haven't done their homework. There are probably more Christians reported demonically possessed than non-Christians (most likely because they'd be more likely to seek spiritual counsel), and like I said [in another thread I believe], I have an acquaintance involved in a major revival in a South American country where tens of thousands of people attend. During the time of spiritual warfare, he reported that over ~90% of all demonic manifestations occurred in those who reported to be Christian.

[Rahab]

Unless someone to advocate the complete denial of all medical treatment there is no reason to claim that a Christian cannot have a mental malady that requires medical treatment.

The saddling of Christians with the idea that this type of malady is always inherently different and should only be dealt with spiritually is a form of of abuse. Bonjour Dee Dee,

I agree with you. Mental illnesses need to be acknowleged as no different than any type of malady caused by a dysfunctionment in our physiology.

However, when it comes to the domaine of psycho somatic symptoms, largely caused by the subconscious, the use of medical drugs or conventional medical therapy is not effective. Freud, Charcot and Janet had drawn the line between physical causes to some symptoms and a purely psychological interference with the proper function of our organs and immune system.

No doubt that hypochondriacs experience physical symptoms induced by auto suggestion. Methods such as relaxation, yoga, meditation and prayer may relieve such symptoms. The same way, the immune system can be stimulated via a thought process. Cancer patients who adopt a positive thought process and utilize visualization for example during their chemo treatment tend to reach remission at a higher rate.

However, it is extremely important to diagnose clinical conditions and treat them via conventional medicine.

My time of observation of my mother's psychosis revealed that her cyclic psychotic crisis always corresponded to her reducing her dosage of medication or abandonning her treatment. Side effects being her justification to stop taking her medicine. When on treatment, noone would have suspected that she was schizophrenic. Off treatment, delusion and hallucinations would reoccur and cause her to have a distorted perception of the reality.

[neonmagek]

Hi... I'm a newbie here... but I'd like some feedback on this issue.

I saw the movie, The Exorcist (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/) for the first time recently... and it was thought provoking in ways that I hadn't expected. A large portion of the movie involves the mother trying to figure out what is wrong with the possessed girl, and exorcism is only the very last resort. Before that the doctors diagnose her with a 'nerve disorder' in which she is overreacting to depression and they put her on Ritalin. Later on they theorize that she might have some sort of brain damage. All her tests turn out normal.

It kinda reminded me of myself... just because I'm taking medication for seizures that (according to my latest EEG) I shouldn't be having, and also meds for some sort of depression or anxiety disorder or whatever.

Mainly it just got me thinking about mental illness and even physical illness, and wondering when to use spiritual remedies and when to use scientific remedies.

A person like myself with epilepsy didn't have it so great in the past... here's a quote from the Wikipedia entry on Epilepsy:

In the past, epilepsy was associated with religious experiences and even demonic possession. Apocryphally, epilepsy has been called the "Sacred Disease" because people thought that epileptic seizures were a form of attack by demons, or that the visions experienced by persons with epilepsy were sent by the gods. However, in many cultures, persons with epilepsy have been stigmatized, shunned, or even imprisoned; in the Salpêtrière, the birthplace of modern neurology, Jean-Martin Charcot found people with epilepsy side-by-side with the mentally retarded, chronic syphilitics, and the criminally insane. In Tanzania to this day, onlookers will not touch a person having an epileptic fit, owing to fear of demons, even if the seizure causes the person to fall into the cooking fire (the flickering light from fire may have provoked the seizure in the first place.) In ancient Rome, epilepsy was known as the Morbus Comitialis ('disease of the assembly hall') and was seen as a curse from the gods.

Stigma continues to this day, in both the public and private spheres, but polls suggest it is generally decreasing with time, at least in the developed world; Hippocrates remarked that epilepsy would be considered divine only until it was understood [3].

So my question is... is there a spiritual aspect to brain disorders? To epilepsy? To depression? I'm sure a lot of people would say that yes, of course -- Jesus heals your depresson...

But man... I'm confused... input? My apologies if you guys have been over this a million times already. Like I said... I'm new.

There are no spiritual remedies to the things you listed as far as I know because there is no evidence showing that a spiritual remedy works or is probable to work.

[neonmagek]

Not really--though before the advent of science, a lot of people thought there were. Brain disorders are a physical condition, and are no more "spiritual" than high cholesterol or angina.



Not me. I've dealt with depression for years--both as a Wiccan and as a Christian. I'll be the last to say that God cannot heal ... but I'll also note that the best treatment for depression (or any other illness, physical or mental) is to continue taking the necessary medicine.

Christianity was part of my problem with depression in the first place. My depression lessened and my life improved once I got away from Christianity.

[neonmagek]

So my feelings have nothing to do with God? So to him I'm just a robot and I take pills in order to in increase my level of happiness so I can function better? I can hardly believe that.



I don't either... I didn't mean to suggest that... but Christians can be spiritually attacked, right?

There are some problems with what said. For one, taking pills has nothing to do with robots or being a robot. You said that only to make the following sound like it would be bad "I take pills in order to increase my level of happiness so I can function better". I would like to know what you mean by "spritually attacked". Many people have habbit of using the word spiritual be a catch all phrase for when they have no clue what they mean and many disagree with what the word does mean, which is why I asked what you mean by it. I would also like to know why taking pills to help get rid of depression is somehow a bad thing. It is obvious that you think it is by what you stated above.

[Don McIntosh]

The medicines used to treat depression are not designed to make you feel happy--it's designed to prevent the biochemical imbalance from interfering with your ability to experience emotions. That's why they have me on an SSRI--it doesn't make me any happier. The only thing the SSRI does is try to rebalance the brain cemichals so I can think clearly.

Well said. As Peter Kramer put it Listening to Prozac a few years ago, "Medication is like a revolution overthrowing a totalitarian editor and allowing the news to emerge in perspective." I've heard critics of psychiatry make the patently false claim that antidepressants such as SSRIs transform healthy humans into "mind-numbed zombies" and the like, when the fact is that depression numbs the mind into a zombie-like state worse than any drug I could name. As you noted, antidepressants are more chemically normalizing than mind altering. The objective behind medication is to think and function properly, not to catch a buzz.

[Rahab]

Well said. As Peter Kramer put it Listening to Prozac a few years ago, "Medication is like a revolution overthrowing a totalitarian editor and allowing the news to emerge in perspective." I've heard critics of psychiatry make the patently false claim that antidepressants such as SSRIs transform healthy humans into "mind-numbed zombies" Welcome to T Web, Don McIntosh!

There is an undeniable factor of negative side effects depending on the dosage of anti depressants which was prescribed. However, such argument should never be used to be critical of modern psychiatry. The argument is as invalid as criticizing oncology for the use of chemo and claim that such drugs "transform healthy human beings into balding, nausea ridden, weakened bodies".

Like any medical therapy (especialy involving pharmacology), side effects will be experienced.



and the like, when the fact is that depression numbs the mind into a zombie-like state worse than any drug I could name. As you noted, antidepressants are more chemically normalizing than mind altering. The objective behind medication is to think and function properly, not to catch a buzz. Absolutly.

[Storico]

I think sometimes, people of faith (any faith) are critical of medication, because they see it as somehow "giving into science and not trusting God". I've talked to many people who have expressed similar sentiments, and it's unfortunate that the attitude prevails. We have scientific knowledge for a great reason: we're supposed to use it. Chemicals react with one another, and with our bodies, and they can make us feel better or worse depending on the chemistry, the dosages, the timing, etc etc etc. They're useful, though. When taken properly, I know they can help. They've helped people I love.

There is also, however, a stigma associated with medication, and it has nothing to do with Christianity. It's the idea that anyone who has to take pills is 'weak' or 'disabled' or 'unable to go it alone'. Coworkers, classmates, and sometimes even friends or family members (oddly enough) lower the bar when it comes to their expectations for you, and if they don't understand WHAT the medication does, it's very possible to get talked down at. It's unfortunate. As a friend of ours said a while ago when a comment was made, "oh for pete's sake, I have to take medication to help with regulation, but quit acting like I'm going to snap! If you can't talk to me like a grown up, then leave and go to a library and get educated on this, and call me when you're done." -- it was a good point.

[Rahab]

I think sometimes, people of faith (any faith) are critical of medication, because they see it as somehow "giving into science and not trusting God". I've talked to many people who have expressed similar sentiments, and it's unfortunate that the attitude prevails. We have scientific knowledge for a great reason: we're supposed to use it. Chemicals react with one another, and with our bodies, and they can make us feel better or worse depending on the chemistry, the dosages, the timing, etc etc etc. They're useful, though. When taken properly, I know they can help. They've helped people I love.

There is also, however, a stigma associated with medication, and it has nothing to do with Christianity. It's the idea that anyone who has to take pills is 'weak' or 'disabled' or 'unable to go it alone'. Coworkers, classmates, and sometimes even friends or family members (oddly enough) lower the bar when it comes to their expectations for you, and if they don't understand WHAT the medication does, it's very possible to get talked down at. It's unfortunate. As a friend of ours said a while ago when a comment was made, "oh for pete's sake, I have to take medication to help with regulation, but quit acting like I'm going to snap! If you can't talk to me like a grown up, then leave and go to a library and get educated on this, and call me when you're done." -- it was a good point. I so agree with you, Storico!

The stigma you mentionned is even ,at times, peeking its nasty head in verbal communication. When folks disagree on one point or the other and someone launches into a "go take your pills". Some expressions are coloquial such as "take a chill pill". We see it in cyber communication as " did you forget to take your meds"? It has always bothered me because the person such comments are addressed to may very well be taking anti depressants or anti psychotic drugs. And he/she may have experienced being "talked down" over it.

[Storico]

I so agree with you, Storico!

The stigma you mentionned is even ,at times, peeking its nasty head in verbal communication. When folks disagree on one point or the other and someone launches into a "go take your pills". Some expressions are coloquial such as "take a chill pill". We see it in cyber communication as " did you forget to take your meds"? It has always bothered me because the person such comments are addressed to may very well be taking anti depressants or anti psychotic drugs. And he/she may have experienced being "talked down" over it.

Well, I also think it's important to remember that as much as we try to be politically correct, we all slip up now and again with a phrase we simply didn't think about before uttering. Hence the saying "open mouth, insert foot!" -- I've been guilty of it before. If someone I know is ranting and railing and freaking out over what seems like nothing, I've said "oh, chill out" or "take a chill pill". Nothing mean's meant by it -- the idea communicated is "please calm down, or take something that will help you do it". For the most part, I know when a friend or family member is taking pills for whatever reason. I've never had anyone really take offense, so far. In one kind of funny case, a friend stopped in her tracks after I said "take a chill pill" and told me "oh... hey, that reminded me, I forgot my meds this morning." And off she went to find them. There ya go.

I think the stigma REALLY comes out in nastier phrases like "oh, go see a doctor" or "off your meds again, eh" or even addressing people as nutjobs, whackjobs, or you name it. The distinction's subtle, but I think it's there. I don't tend to make a comment to a person I don't know, simply because friends joke around with each other but don't like the same treatment from mere acquaintances or strangers. Online forums are problematic that way. People who are poor spellers get told "go get that dyslexia fixed" or "geeze, go see a tutor... what do ya have, dyslexia or something?", which is demeaning. People who tend to post the same types of topics over and over again are asked how their OCD is doing. People who speak of religious experiences or spiritual matters are sometimes told they have schizophrenia, or they're told that they ought to seek 'psychological help'. Demeaning, dismissive language like that is more of a problem, I think, especially among people who don't truly know you and who you don't truly know.

Back to the original topic for a moment of there being stigma around medications and their being used: in the 'offline world', I think the statements people make about medication are probably even more harmful because they're usually coupled with negative connotations. One of my coworkers had a seizure about a week ago at work. No big deal. He dropped a few bottles, which smashed. He knew how to deal with it, and most of us did, too. We moved him away from the glass, and I grabbed a mop. No biggie. Happens. Except one of our customers, who snickered "why do they let retarded people work here? Why can't they put him on meds or something?" -- the customer was asked to leave and to not come back until he'd learned manners. Pronto. Rightfully so. We don't have room for that kind of ignorance. We need to speak out against it by informing, providing education for those who don't know the etiologies and intricacies of various problems, and we need to let ignorant people know that they aren't funny or helpful.