Trinity - new thought...

[Vladimir]

Hi all,

I was in our church Bible Study yesterday and got involved in an interesting debate on the subject of Trinity. Here is the view of those on the other side:

Their presupposition is that since each Person of Trinity is a Person, and a Person by definition has spirit, then Father has Father's Spirit, the Son has the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Spirit has the Spirit of the Holy Spirit.

They believe that Father's Spirit is NOT a person, but is simply something that makes God the Father a Person. They do believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, but that the Holy Spirit has a Spirit, which is not a Person, but something that makes Holy Spirit a Person.

I have never heard such a thing, to me, there is the Person of the Holy Spirit, Who is the Spirit of the Father and of the Son.

But, they are telling me that I am wrong.... Am I?

[SaintMorpheus]

The idea that a person by definition has a spirit is silly. Ask them why they believe that. Insist that they explain what they mean in full detail, with support from Scripture. From your description of what they believe, it sounds like they will get confused if you ask them questions like this. At this point you can triumphantly claim victory. Seriously, though, you might want to read the works of the Cappadocian Fathers, as they formulated the doctrine of the Trinity.
Also, I would read "Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church" by John D. Zizioulas ... it examines at length the personal relations of God to Himself (i.e. the Trinity) and how this relates to the (Greek) philosophical concept of personhood.
In Christ,
St. Morph

[Chappie]

God does not have a spirit, God is spirit. 1 spirit, three persons...

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 10:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=208471#post208471)
Chappie:
God does not have a spirit, God is spirit. 1 spirit, three persons...
Actually, John writes in his Revelation that God has seven spirits.


Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

[markporter]

Hmm, depends what a spirit is I suppose I usually equate spirit=person

[Chappie]

Today @ 05:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=208488#post208488)
RightIdea:

Actually, John writes in his Revelation that God has seven spirits.

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

It is the spirit that gives life. (To man) The Spirit is life. God is a Spirit.
John 4:24
24 God is "a" Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Seven spirits mentioned pertain to, are in a unique relationship to/with; or belong to God. They are not God. They appear to be some kind of subservient life forms/forces.. They were sent by God (Rev. 5:6) which set's them apart from God.

Is it not the soul that establishes a person. I believe that this is true as far as men are concerned. Thoughts, individuality, volition, these are a function of our soul, this is where personage is established.

The oneness of God is established in the fact that there is one Spirit. Three persons, one Spirit. One God. God "is" Spirit.

[Reasonable]

Today @ 03:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=209105#post209105)
Chappie:

The Seven spirits mentioned pertain to, are in a unique relationship to/with; or belong to God. They are not God... They were sent by God (Rev. 5:6) which set's them apart from God.


Hmm, sounds like an argument Arians would use with Trinitarians since Jesus said he was sent by God.

[Chappie]

Today @ 04:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=209134#post209134)
Reasonable:

Hmm, sounds like an argument Arians would use with Trinitarians since Jesus said he was sent by God.

The context being he was sent by the Father.... Same Spirit...

Christ also communicated to us while on this earth from his human nature which was not deity.... In that respect, he was a man, refering to his God...

[Andy Howard]

Interestingly the testimonies of Scripture do testify to a Trinity(though the word is not in the Scriptures)ie,Abraham, Issac, & Jacob are types of the Father, the Son, and the Bride(with all of the children)-the Holy Spirit is in all 3 according to the Pentateuch.
-David's 3 mighties of II Sam.23
-the 3rd Day (the time of the resurrection according to Luke 24:21)
-the light in 3 ranks in Solomon's Temple(I Kings 7:4-5)
-3 coverings for the Tabernacle(goat's hair is the Bride-Song of Sol.4:1, Ram's skin dyed red is the Saviour, & the badger's skin represents the Father)
-3 almond bowls in each branceh of the almond tree
-3 Hebrew children(Daniel's friends)
-3 areas of the Tabernacle or Temple(outer court, innercourt, and the Holy of Holies)
-3 gifts of the wise men,etc.

The Holy Spirit is in all 3 or they are not of God.
Andy Howard

[johnnybanano]

What's wrong with this? (scripturally)

The Holy Spirit does not have a personality unique from the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the common Spirit shared by the Father and the Son. It's that which makes the Father and the Son one. It seems kind of strange to think of the Holy Spirit having a Spirit. I mean, it sounds to me like the Holy Spirit is simply a spirit. But, and "simply" probably wasn't a good word, it is the shared Spirit of the Father and the Son.

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 08:37 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=209602#post209602)
johnnybanano:

What's wrong with this? (scripturally)

The Holy Spirit does not have a personality unique from the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the common Spirit shared by the Father and the Son. It's that which makes the Father and the Son one. It seems kind of strange to think of the Holy Spirit having a Spirit. I mean, it sounds to me like the Holy Spirit is simply a spirit. But, and "simply" probably wasn't a good word, it is the shared Spirit of the Father and the Son.

What's wrong with it? It disregards the many scripture in the NT which indicate that the HS is a person, with personal traits. Here is part of a post on another Holy Spirit thread in this forum. The statement in the middle paragraph is supported scripturally, click the link to see all the scripture cited.

08-02-2003 @ 05:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=165321#post165321)
OldShepherd:

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, actions, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc.

[scleaver]

In my estimation I think these people may be confusing the use of language to express a mysterious union. The word "person" does not by definition require a "spirit." The use of the word "person" is a clarification describing modes of being; an excercise in ontology.

[yhwhbible]

Judging from the above, and what I read (barna.org) and hear from others, it seems that many Christians can't actually agree on what the Doctrine of the Trinity is, and since it is completely unnecessary from a Biblical point of view, should we not just scrap it?
-Heinz
http://www.yhwhbible.ca.tc/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jehovahbible/

[johnnybanano]

Thanks for the link OldShepherd. As I do not agree that all of these characteristics require a third personality, unique to the Father and the Son, I have come to the conclusion that my thought here is not being communicated very well. I will try to think of how to restate it. However, I did find a verse in your linked post that really helped. As I was reading through them, I came across 1 John 5:7-8.


For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

I have been shown that the Vulagate translate this as...

...testify in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

This is the only thing that I have seen mentioning the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in equal contribution to the Godhead. This has given me great pause and caused me to re-evaluate my position on the Godhead. Again, thanks for the help.

Love and Respect

[young joshua]

07-14-2003 @ 08:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=148597#post148597)
SaintMorpheus:

The idea that a person by definition has a spirit is silly. Ask them why they believe that. Insist that they explain what they mean in full detail, with support from Scripture. From your description of what they believe, it sounds like they will get confused if you ask them questions like this. At this point you can triumphantly claim victory. Seriously, though, you might want to read the works of the Cappadocian Fathers, as they formulated the doctrine of the Trinity.
Also, I would read "Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church" by John D. Zizioulas ... it examines at length the personal relations of God to Himself (i.e. the Trinity) and how this relates to the (Greek) philosophical concept of personhood.
In Christ,
St. Morph


I dont think it is silly to think a person can have a spirit.....The bible talks about many different people being filled with unclean spirits, and it also talks about people being filled with the spirit of God!!!!!!!! First john 5: 7 says For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.Act 1 vers8 says: But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[1] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." So God promised the spirit...When you said "The idea that a person by definition has a spirit is silly" When you said definition i knew you were reading the wrong book....God bless you!!!!!!!!!!!