I have started a study on Islam.

[Ric]

I was reading through the Qur'an and I ran across this:


Surah 7.120 But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration.
Surah 7:121 Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,-
Surah 7:122 "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."
Surah 7:123 Said Pharaoh: "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this is a trick which ye have planned in the city to drive out its people: but soon shall ye know (the consequences).
Surah 7:124 "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross."

History does show us that crucifixion was not used before the Babylonian Empire, and Pharaoh was told, in the Qur'an, that he used crucifixion. This sounds like a historical error in the text of the Qur'an!

Anyone have any more info on this?

Thanks!

[Socrates]

Hi Ric

Seems like a good pickup. I presume that Quranic apologists would regard the archaeological problems as an argument from silence though.

To throw another hat in the ring, there's an article on Islam and Christianity comparing their views on creation, "The Koran vs Genesis" http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v24n2_islam.asp

[Ric]

Socrates:
Hi Ric

Seems like a good pickup. I presume that Quranic apologists would regard the archaeological problems as an argument from silence though.

To throw another hat in the ring, there's an article on Islam and Christianity comparing their views on creation, "The Koran vs Genesis" http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v24n2_islam.asp

Thanks, I'll check out that site. :rockon:

[Ric]

Please read the first post in this thread. :smile:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Has anyone alerted Andrew to this thread?? He is very good in this area, perhaps Ric you can PM him??

[Ric]

Dee Dee Warren:
Has anyone alerted Andrew to this thread?? He is very good in this area, perhaps Ric you can PM him??
I am kinda new here :smile: , I don't know Andrew but I will PM him. :smile:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Okay, great!! Andrew is a member here who has demonstrated great knowledge in Islamic matters.

[Ric]

Dee Dee Warren:
Okay, great!! Andrew is a member here who has demonstrated great knowledge in Islamic matters.

I went as far as to receive a free Qur'an from Islamicity.com (because I won't shell out the money for one of those books! :bonk: ), and I am going through it to try to understand the Islamic mindset - and also to help myself learn how to witness to Muslims better. :yipee:

I can't wait for Andrew's replies!

Thanks again Dee Dee!

[Jin-Roh]

Hey this is kinda cool.
Christians are taking a stand against Islam rather then defending it. I see the latter so often and I'm still scratching my head as to why.
:huh:

(no God but Yahweh.)

[Ric]

Jin-Roh:
Hey this is kinda cool.
Christians are taking a stand against Islam rather then defending it. I see the latter so often and I'm still scratching my head as to why.
:huh:

(no God but Yahweh.)

And we must do so in/with LOVE!
I want my Islamic neighbor in Heaven :angel: with us too!

[Hugh Slaman]

The word normally translated as "crucifixion" in the Quran refers to any act of hanging someone up as a way of humiliating them.

In Islamic history, rebels against the ruler would FIRST be killed, and THEN be hung up on a pole or a tree to serve as a warning to others. This practise was referred to by the same Arabic word as that used for "crucifixion".

In other words, the translation given is possible, but non-obligatory. The word in question can refer to execution on a cross, but it can also refer to simply hanging someone up on a tree.

I have a hard time believing that there is any evidence that the Pharaohs never hung people up as a form of punishment or humiliation.

[Ric]

02-22-2003 @ 02:38 AM
Hugh Slaman:

The word normally translated as "crucifixion" in the Quran refers to any act of hanging someone up as a way of humiliating them.

In Islamic history, rebels against the ruler would FIRST be killed, and THEN be hung up on a pole or a tree to serve as a warning to others. This practise was referred to by the same Arabic word as that used for "crucifixion".

In other words, the translation given is possible, but non-obligatory. The word in question can refer to execution on a cross, but it can also refer to simply hanging someone up on a tree.

I have a hard time believing that there is any evidence that the Pharaohs never hung people up as a form of punishment or humiliation.

Thanks Hugh,

You may be correct or not - I don't know for sure yet, that's why I posted this here. :smile:

I have read two different translations of the Qur'an into English and one translations says "cross" and the other said "crucifixion".
Yes, I need to study more, but from what I have seen so far there is truly a historical contradiction here (and many more that I will follow up on later).

God Bless!

[Hugh Slaman]

Like I said, "crucifixion" is one instance of the kind of punishment referred to by the Arabic word "salaba".

But it's not the only one.

I don't have any formal credentials in Arabic, so I can see why you would still be skeptical.

My suggestion to you, though, is that this line of enquiry will not yield a satisying (for you) problem with the Quran.

It will be hard to find such problems, simply because words in classical Arabic have very flexible meanings. For exactly the same reason, Muslims find it hard to justify the Quran on the basis of its concordance with modern science.

[Ric]

bump

[Sauron]

02-08-2003 @ 10:27 PM
Socrates:

Hi Ric

Seems like a good pickup. I presume that Quranic apologists would regard the archaeological problems as an argument from silence though.


A tactic that christian apologists use as well.

Really frosts your shorts to see "the enemy" borrowing YOUR escape hatches from you, doesn't it?


:bonk:

[Sauron]

02-15-2003 @ 06:25 PM
Ric:



I went as far as to receive a free Qur'an from Islamicity.com (because I won't shell out the money for one of those books! :bonk: ), and I am going through it to try to understand the Islamic mindset - and also to help myself learn how to witness to Muslims better. :yipee:

I can't wait for Andrew's replies!

Thanks again Dee Dee!

Rick, if you're really interested in learning about islam, I can recommend these websites:

Islam
http://www.islam.org/
http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/a011402.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1105/p1s2-wogi.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm

If you have any questions, I can probably help. I'll be traveling starting Wednesday for 5 or 6 days, but otherwise I'd be glad to help.
:yipee:

[Ric]

03-03-2003 @ 12:46 AM
Sauron:



Rick, if you're really interested in learning about islam, I can recommend these websites:

Islam
http://www.islam.org/
http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/a011402.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1105/p1s2-wogi.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm

If you have any questions, I can probably help. I'll be traveling starting Wednesday for 5 or 6 days, but otherwise I'd be glad to help.
:yipee:

Thanks! I will make use of them. I am however getting ready for bed right now. So I'll see them tomorrow.

[Ric]

Bump

[Jason Gastrich]

Interesting convo.

I've studied the Koran quite a bit. The following web site reveals a lot about it. My research is there and there is a link to an online Koran, too.

God bless,
JG

P.S. I'm going to make some bookmark links for the top of the site, so it will be a bit more navigable.

[Jason Gastrich]

There we go. The bookmark links have been added. Here are the main topics:

The Christians and the Jews
Killing Others
The Denial of the Biblical Jesus Christ
The Costs of Unbelief
The Unbiblical Doctrines
The Treatment of Women

I wish I was joking about the "Killing Others" part. All sections are backed up with plenty of scriptures from The Koran.

JG

[kiwimac]

One of my degrees was in Comparative Religion (with a major in Islam) so I'd be interested in being involved. I'm shifting house currently but will be about 'piece-meal'.

Kiwimac

[Ric]

Today @ 02:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88691#post88691)
Jason G:

Interesting convo.

I've studied the Koran quite a bit. The following web site reveals a lot about it. My research is there and there is a link to an online Koran, too.

God bless,
JG

P.S. I'm going to make some bookmark links for the top of the site, so it will be a bit more navigable.


Thanks JG! But where is your link to the web site you are talking about?

[Jason Gastrich]

Ric,

I'm sorry. It looks like my brain temporarily malfunctioned and I forgot the link. I think the link address came into my mind and I wondered if it was indeed a shortcut, then I checked it out and forgot to post it. :shrug:

Link: http://koran.jcsm.org.

Thanks and God bless,
Jason G

[Ric]

Today @ 02:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=89704#post89704)
Jason G:

Ric,

I'm sorry. It looks like my brain temporarily malfunctioned and I forgot the link. I think the link address came into my mind and I wondered if it was indeed a shortcut, then I checked it out and forgot to post it. :shrug:

Link: http://koran.jcsm.org.

Thanks and God bless,
Jason G

Thank you! I'll check er' out!

[Jason Gastrich]

Ric,

How is your study going?

JG

[Ric]

:bunny:

[moonlight3]

Hugh:
Whats about the cutting of hands and feet of opposite sides? Did the Pharoahs do that? Who first used this method in history? If the Pharoahs used it, any historical record?
What historical records are there that the Pharoahs used crucifiction?