God Did Not Want Adam & Eve To Have Free Will

[Tladatsi]

One of the on-going arguments about the "Problem of Evil" is that God wanted mankind to have free-will. Evil is an inevitiable by-product (collateral damage if you like) of free will.

The main problem with this argument is that God did not want mankind (or at least Adam and Eve) to have free-will. In Genesis 2 and 3 we are told that God had planted two trees in the garden of Eden. The fruit of these trees gave whoever ate them certain powers. One was the power of knowing good from evil. The other was immortality.

We are also told that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil. I think it is safe to say that one cannot exercise free will without knowledge about the implications. How can one choose good over evil if you cannot tell them apart. This is how God created Adam and Eve, without that ability. Further, God forbids Adam and Eve from obtaining that knowledge and ability by eating the special fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

So God did not want mankind to have free will, it was the talking snake that did. Why did the snake want mankind to have free will, the Bible does not say. Nor does it explain why God placed the magical tree that could give mankind free will in Eden. There it is nonetheless.

[Meh_Gerbil]

One of the on-going arguments about the "Problem of Evil" is that God wanted mankind to have free-will. Evil is an inevitiable by-product (collateral damage if you like) of free will.

The main problem with this argument is that God did not want mankind (or at least Adam and Eve) to have free-will. In Genesis 2 and 3 we are told that God had planted two trees in the garden of Eden. The fruit of these trees gave whoever ate them certain powers. One was the power of knowing good from evil. The other was immortality.

We are also told that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil. I think it is safe to say that one cannot exercise free will without knowledge about the implications. How can one choose good over evil if you cannot tell them apart. This is how God created Adam and Eve, without that ability. Further, God forbids Adam and Eve from obtaining that knowledge and ability by eating the special fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

So God did not want mankind to have free will, it was the talking snake that did. Why did the snake want mankind to have free will, the Bible does not say. Nor does it explain why God placed the magical tree that could give mankind free will in Eden. There it is nonetheless.

I think you are confusing the issue.

G_d gave us a free will - free will was not gained by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The knowledge of evil that was gained wasn't a good thing - but rather a corruption of who we were meant to be. I know there are those that like to portray this knowledge as a good thing, because it is knowledge, but it is bad knowledge.

For example, my daughter has a free will.
She can make a free will choice to do drugs or she can make a free will choice to not do drugs. If she does the drugs she gains the knowledge of drug use but she doesn't gain freewill by the act. The knowledge in the case of drug use is a negative knowledge - it is harmful.

So there are two issues:
1: Freewill
2: Knowledge

Free will was given by G_d to mankind.
Mankind exercised that freewill to gain an evil knowledge.

Bad choice, that one.

[dizzle]

One of the on-going arguments about the "Problem of Evil" is that God wanted mankind to have free-will. Evil is an inevitiable by-product (collateral damage if you like) of free will.

The main problem with this argument is that God did not want mankind (or at least Adam and Eve) to have free-will. In Genesis 2 and 3 we are told that God had planted two trees in the garden of Eden. The fruit of these trees gave whoever ate them certain powers. One was the power of knowing good from evil. The other was immortality.

We are also told that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil. I think it is safe to say that one cannot exercise free will without knowledge about the implications. How can one choose good over evil if you cannot tell them apart. This is how God created Adam and Eve, without that ability. Further, God forbids Adam and Eve from obtaining that knowledge and ability by eating the special fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

So God did not want mankind to have free will, it was the talking snake that did. Why did the snake want mankind to have free will, the Bible does not say. Nor does it explain why God placed the magical tree that could give mankind free will in Eden. There it is nonetheless.


Fallacy of equivocation on the word "know." Adam "knew" his wife at some point after she was created. Was he completely ignorant of her beforehand?

[Meh_Gerbil]

Fallacy of equivocation on the word "know." Adam "knew" his wife at some point after she was created. Was he completely ignorant of her beforehand?

Interesting.
Pearls.

[themuzicman]

One of the on-going arguments about the "Problem of Evil" is that God wanted mankind to have free-will. Evil is an inevitiable by-product (collateral damage if you like) of free will.

The main problem with this argument is that God did not want mankind (or at least Adam and Eve) to have free-will. In Genesis 2 and 3 we are told that God had planted two trees in the garden of Eden. The fruit of these trees gave whoever ate them certain powers. One was the power of knowing good from evil. The other was immortality.

We are also told that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil. I think it is safe to say that one cannot exercise free will without knowledge about the implications. How can one choose good over evil if you cannot tell them apart. This is how God created Adam and Eve, without that ability. Further, God forbids Adam and Eve from obtaining that knowledge and ability by eating the special fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

What part of "Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good ane evil, for in the day that you eat if it, you shall surely die" didn't make sense?

[dizzle]

WOW! I got pearls from the gerb :joy:

[Tladatsi]

Fallacy of equivocation on the word "know." Adam "knew" his wife at some point after she was created. Was he completely ignorant of her beforehand?

[quote]
Hummmm - well the Bible does not actually say anything along those lines but I am willing to go out on a limb and say - yes Adam was completely ignorant of Eve before God created her. Unless of course you are making some lame joke but even if you are, then yes Adam did not "know" his wife before she was created.

Free will without knowledge is at best nothing more than the potential of free will. If I gave a 747 jumbo jet, you have the free will to fly it, if you know how (again, I am guessing you don't have an FAA transport pilot licence). All of your free will means nothing even with the jet plane.

The same is true in Eden. Yes, Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat any food in the garden and other such innocous things. They did not however have free will to choose between good and evil because they could not tell the difference. Why? Because God did not want them to be able to tell the difference between good and evil. Hence by point - God did not want mankind to have free will - at least in regards to matter of good and evi.

[dizzle]

tladats I accidentally nuked part of your post.. can you try to reformulate it? I hit edit instead of quote

[Tladatsi]

I think you are confusing the issue.

G_d gave us a free will - free will was not gained by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The knowledge of evil that was gained wasn't a good thing - but rather a corruption of who we were meant to be. I know there are those that like to portray this knowledge as a good thing, because it is knowledge, but it is bad knowledge.

For example, my daughter has a free will.
She can make a free will choice to do drugs or she can make a free will choice to not do drugs. If she does the drugs she gains the knowledge of drug use but she doesn't gain freewill by the act. The knowledge in the case of drug use is a negative knowledge - it is harmful.

So there are two issues:
1: Freewill
2: Knowledge

Free will was given by G_d to mankind.
Mankind exercised that freewill to gain an evil knowledge.

Bad choice, that one.

Suppose your daughter had never heard of crack concaine and did not know anything about the addictive and destructive aspects concaine (and other similar alkaloids)? If offered crack by a friend who told her that crack would really make her feel good, would she be able to excerise "free will"? Without knowledge free will, is meaningless, or at best only a potential.

[Tladatsi]

What part of "Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good ane evil, for in the day that you eat if it, you shall surely die" didn't make sense?

Well that only begs the question - why did God not want Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Why did God want mankind to be ignorant of the difference between good and evil? To prevent them from using free will.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Suppose your daughter had never heard of crack concaine and did not know anything about the addictive and destructive aspects concaine (and other similar alkaloids)? If offered crack by a friend who told her that crack would really make her feel good, would she be able to excerise "free will"? Without knowledge free will, is meaningless, or at best only a potential.

Wrong.
She still has free will to either use the cocaine or not.
Uniformed free will is still free will.

In the garden Adam & Eve had the free will to either obey G_d or disobey G_d. The resulting consequences (or ignorance of the consequences) are quite apart from that freewill action. That isn't even considering that G_d warned them that they would die and while not truly aware of what that meant they knew it wasn't desirable.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Well that only begs the question - why did God not want Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Why did God want mankind to be ignorant of the difference between good and evil? To prevent them from using free will.

No, that is begging the question.
You keep equating level of knowledge with free will and that is something you've not proven yet.

[Tladatsi]

tladats I accidentally nuked part of your post.. can you try to reformulate it? I hit edit instead of quote

Done. Thanks. :teeth:

[Tladatsi]

Wrong.
She still has free will to either use the cocaine or not.
Uniformed free will is still free will.

In the garden Adam & Eve had the free will to either obey G_d or disobey G_d. The resulting consequences (or ignorance of the consequences) are quite apart from that freewill action. That isn't even considering that G_d warned them that they would die and while not truly aware of what that meant they knew it wasn't desirable.

I happen to think that the cocaine business is evil. Your daugher is not choosing between good and evil. She is choosing to listen to her "friend" and try what looks like rock candy.

My point was not about trivial choices, Adam and Eve could run and jump and chase butterflies all they wanted. They could not choose between good and evil because they could not tell them apart. God did not want to give them free will in that matter.

[themuzicman]

I happen to think that the cocaine business is evil. Your daugher is not choosing between good and evil. She is choosing to listen to her "friend" and try what looks like rock candy.

My point was not about trivial choices, Adam and Eve could run and jump and chase butterflies all they wanted. They could not choose between good and evil because they could not tell them apart. God did not want to give them free will in that matter.
Um.. which brings us back to my question:

What part of "DO NOT EAT OF THE TREE" wasn't clear? Your analogy fails because you fail to include the part where the parents tell the girl "Don't do crack"?

Michael

[Champagne]

The Adam and Eve story is similar to the Pandora's box myth. Prior to opening the box (eating the fruit) the people were innocent, babes in the woods. Life was great. Paradise. But, curiosity got the better of them and they opened the box, thus, now they know the "real" world. They know the diff. between good and evil.

It makes sense to me. God has the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden. Why does he tell A & E not to eat of it? He has to have a reason. He doesn't just order things arbitrarily.

He did NOT want them to become knowledgeable of the diff between good and evil. He wanted them to remain innocent. He wanted to protect them, basically. He knew once they ate of it, their eyes would be opened and they'd be in a different world- the world where they can now see both good AND evil.

They were naked and innocent before eating. Once they ate, suddenly they realized that, hey we're naked and that's weird and shameful! Why would they suddenly think that? B/c, they suddenly realized that they WERE NOT little kids,and that running around naked as adults was not acceptable, whereas before, it was, b/c they were like children.

This myth reflecting the early notion of the Hebrews that nakedness was shameful. We today don't tend to think nudity in and of itself is shameful. But, for the story to work, there has to be a "waking up" and smelling the coffee that occurs after they gain the knowledge.

[Tladatsi]

Um.. which brings us back to my question:

What part of "DO NOT EAT OF THE TREE" wasn't clear? Your analogy fails because you fail to include the part where the parents tell the girl "Don't do crack"?

Michael

Why did God not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Because He did not want them (us) to have the knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Why would God not want us to know what is the most important difference in the world. The only explanation is that God did not want us to have free will in matters of good and evil.

[themuzicman]

Why did God not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Because He did not want them (us) to have the knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Why would God not want us to know what is the most important difference in the world. The only explanation is that God did not want us to have free will in matters of good and evil.
God didn't want them to know, because knowing would result in eternal condemnation for most of mankind.

Michael

[Tladatsi]

The Adam and Eve story is similar to the Pandora's box myth. Prior to opening the box (eating the fruit) the people were innocent, babes in the woods. Life was great. Paradise. But, curiosity got the better of them and they opened the box, thus, now they know the "real" world. They know the diff. between good and evil.

It makes sense to me. God has the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden. Why does he tell A & E not to eat of it? He has to have a reason. He doesn't just order things arbitrarily.

He did NOT want them to become knowledgeable of the diff between good and evil. He wanted them to remain innocent. He wanted to protect them, basically. He knew once they ate of it, their eyes would be opened and they'd be in a different world- the world where they can now see both good AND evil.

They were naked and innocent before eating. Once they ate, suddenly they realized that, hey we're naked and that's weird and shameful! Why would they suddenly think that? B/c, they suddenly realized that they WERE NOT little kids,and that running around naked as adults was not acceptable, whereas before, it was, b/c they were like children.

This myth reflecting the early notion of the Hebrews that nakedness was shameful. We today don't tend to think nudity in and of itself is shameful. But, for the story to work, there has to be a "waking up" and smelling the coffee that occurs after they gain the knowledge.

Your analysis is quite interesting and in terms of understanding the psychology underlying myths I am sure you are quite correct.

However, I am taking the words written in the Bible at face value. I believe that the Bible means what it says and says what it means. The author of Genesis 2 and 3 is telling the story of Adam and Eve not principly to make a literary or historical point, the author is making a theological point.

These chapters of Genesis are often used to argue the "Problem of Evil", specifically God gave mankind free will to choose between good and evil and the existance of evil is a necessary result of this freedom.

I believe this is mistaken. I believe that the author of Genesis 2 and 3 make clear that God did not want mankind to have free will in matters of good and evil. I believe the author of Genesis 2 and 3 was telling a story of God wanting mankind to be innocent, free of the knowledge of good and evil, and thus unable to excercise free will in these matters. It was the talking snake that thrust free will upon Adam and Eve by convincing them to gain knowledge of good and evil.

So I am looking for something different in the text than are you.

[Tladatsi]

No, that is begging the question.
You keep equating level of knowledge with free will and that is something you've not proven yet.

If you have never seen a hammer before, can you build a house with one? You have free will to build a house, yet you cannot excerise this will to build without the knowledge of how to use a hammer. I am not equating knowledge with free will, I am saying you cannot excercise free will without knowledge. If free will is a automobile then knowledge is gasoline.

Let me repose the issue this way, why did God NOT want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil? Why did He prohibit them from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Is there any more important knowledge in this world? It seems to me the only logical conclusions it that God did not want them to excerise free will in matters of good and evil.

[Tladatsi]

God didn't want them to know, because knowing would result in eternal condemnation for most of mankind.

Michael

If I understand your posting correctly, by gaining the knowledge of good and evil, mankind became capable of committing evil and thus earning "eternal condemnation".

So you argee that God did not want mankind to have the knowledge of good and evil so they could not excercise their free will in matter of good and evil. "Free will" does not explain the existance of evil.

[Meh_Gerbil]

If you have never seen a hammer before, can you build a house with one? You have free will to build a house, yet you cannot excerise this will to build without the knowledge of how to use a hammer. I am not equating knowledge with free will, I am saying you cannot excercise free will without knowledge. If free will is a automobile then knowledge is gasoline.

Let me repose the issue this way, why did God NOT want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil? Why did He prohibit them from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Is there any more important knowledge in this world? It seems to me the only logical conclusions it that God did not want them to excerise free will in matters of good and evil.

If G_d didn't want them to excercise free will He could of simply not included the tree in the garden.

The knowledge of evil is important in a world where it exists.
In a world where evil doesn't exist it has no value.

[Champagne]

So Gerbil, you're saying that evil existed before the fall of Man?

[Meh_Gerbil]

So Gerbil, you're saying that evil existed before the fall of Man?

Well, I don't believe evil 'exists', but rather it is a description of an absence of something else much like 'darkness' doesn't have substance but is the absence of light. This absence existed in the form of Satan at the time so it did pre-exist the fall.

[Tladatsi]

If G_d didn't want them to excercise free will He could of simply not included the tree in the garden.

The knowledge of evil is important in a world where it exists.
In a world where evil doesn't exist it has no value.

However evil did exist or the existance of the tree of knowledge of good and evil would make no sense. Therefore the knowledge of the difference is important in Eden.

I do not understand your first point. So God wanted Adam and Eve to exercise their free will by eating of the fruit even though he told them not to? Yes God could have simply not planted the tree but He did. More to the point He did not want Adam and Eve to eat of it.

Why did He not want them to eat of it? The only explanation I can find is that He did not want mankind to know the difference between good and evil so they could not exercise free will on matters of good evil.

[Jedidiah]

WOW! I got pearls from the gerb :joy:
If he keeps this up, we may feel free to give him pearls for his contributions.

[Tladatsi]

Well, I don't believe evil 'exists', but rather it is a description of an absence of something else much like 'darkness' doesn't have substance but is the absence of light. This absence existed in the form of Satan at the time so it did pre-exist the fall.

Then what the heck is the tree of knowledge of good (tov) and evil (raa) if there is no evil?

[Jedidiah]

If I gave a 747 jumbo jet, you have the free will to fly it, if you know how (again, I am guessing you don't have an FAA transport pilot licence). All of your free will means nothing even with the jet plane.You don’t have to be allowed to fly a plane, in order to be able to choose to do so. You are not allowed to drive without a license, but there are many who choose to do so everyday.



Why did God not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Because He did not want them (us) to have the knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Why would God not want us to know what is the most important difference in the world. The only explanation is that God did not want us to have free will in matters of good and evil. You know the mind of God, there is no other possible explanation?

Why did He not want them to eat of it? The only explanation I can find is that He did not want mankind to know the difference between good and evil so they could not exercise free will on matters of good evil.
This is a little better, at least you acknowledge your own failure to comprehend why God did what He did.

[Tladatsi]

J - "You don’t have to be allowed to fly a plane, in order to be able to choose to do so. You are not allowed to drive without a license, but there are many who choose to do so everyday."

T - You mis-understand me. It is not an "allow" issue, it is an "able" issue. Flying a 747 is REALLY difficult. If you do not have the knowledge, you cannot fly, all the free will in the world not withstanding"


J - You know the mind of God, there is no other possible explanation?

T- No but I know logic and I can read the Bible. This is the only logical explanation I can think of. No one else has come up with another. Do you have one?

J - This is a little better, at least you acknowledge your own failure to comprehend why God did what He did.

T - Why did he? You do not provide any that I saw.

[Jedidiah]

You mis-understand me. It is not an "allow" issue, it is an "able" issue. Flying a 747 is REALLY difficult. If you do not have the knowledge, you cannot fly, all the free will in the world not withstanding"
Exactly, it is not a free will issue.

No but I know logic and I can read the Bible. This is the only logical explanation I can think of. No one else has come up with another. Do you have one?And your failure to come up with an answer means that God does not have another explanation?

Why did he? You do not provide any that I saw.
I didn't give an answer, but that still does not mean that you have the only possible explanation. The point is that free will is irrelevant to the entire issue. Adam and Eve had to have free will to choose to believe the serpent rather than God. They did choose. They did have free will prior to the fall.

[Tladatsi]

J - Exactly, it is not a free will issue.

T - That is my point as well. If Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of the difference between good and evil, how could they possibly be able to exercise free will in matters of choosing between good and evil. Just like the 747 example, having free will is not enough, you need knowledge. Adam and eve lacked it.

J - And your failure to come up with an answer means that God does not have another explanation?

T-I believe that this IS God's answer. That God did not want to give mankind free -will in matters of good and evil. That is what the text says. If you can show me where my reading of the text is incorrect or my logic flawed, then do so.

J - I didn't give an answer, but that still does not mean that you have the only possible explanation. The point is that free will is irrelevant to the entire issue. Adam and Eve had to have free will to choose to believe the serpent rather than God. They did choose. They did have free will prior to the fall.

T - You did not think that paragraph through carefully. In one sentance you say that "free will is irrelevant" and in the next you say that Adam and Eve had free will and freely chose the talking snake over God.

If you go back to the original posting, I was responding to argument that God's gift of free will to mankind necessitates the existiance of evil. However, my point is that God did not want to give mankind free will on matters of good and evil at all. It was the talking snake that got that job done.

[Jedidiah]

That is my point as well. If Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of the difference between good and evil, how could they possibly be able to exercise free will in matters of choosing between good and evil. Just like the 747 example, having free will is not enough, you need knowledge. Adam and eve lacked it.Then we still do not have free will. There is knowledge we still lack. You simply do not make sense to me.


I believe that this IS God's answer. That God did not want to give mankind free -will in matters of good and evil. That is what the text says. If you can show me where my reading of the text is incorrect or my logic flawed, then do so.It is not possible to refute gibberish. I will pass and let you carry on without me. Sorry.

[Tladatsi]

J Then we still do not have free will. There is knowledge we still lack. You simply do not make sense to me.

T We agree it would seem. I am saying Adam and Eve did not have the ability to exercise free will because they lacked knowledge of the difference between good and evil.

[themuzicman]

If I understand your posting correctly, by gaining the knowledge of good and evil, mankind became capable of committing evil and thus earning "eternal condemnation".

So you argee that God did not want mankind to have the knowledge of good and evil so they could not excercise their free will in matter of good and evil. "Free will" does not explain the existance of evil.
No. The only way Adam could gain the knowledge was to sin. That sin condemned most of mankind to eternal condemnation. That certainly wasn't God's will.

Michael

[Champagne]

Tladatsi, I agree with you. A & E did not have free will until after they ate the fruit. At that point, they could tell good from evil, right from wrong, etc., and they then had the choice whether they would do good or evil.

God did not want them to have free will. The paradox of it is, of course, that if God foresaw the future, he knew A & E would eat from the tree and thus gain free will. He created the tree to be there anyway.

[Tladatsi]

No. The only way Adam could gain the knowledge was to sin. That sin condemned most of mankind to eternal condemnation. That certainly wasn't God's will.

Michael

Michael,

Yes, that is my point. God did not want Adam and Eve to gain the knowledge of good and evil. Gaining that knowledge would allow Adam and Eve to excercise free will in matters of good and evil, and God did not want that. So we do agree.

[Tladatsi]

Tladatsi, I agree with you. A & E did not have free will until after they ate the fruit. At that point, they could tell good from evil, right from wrong, etc., and they then had the choice whether they would do good or evil.

God did not want them to have free will. The paradox of it is, of course, that if God foresaw the future, he knew A & E would eat from the tree and thus gain free will. He created the tree to be there anyway.

Yes indeed. There is a interesting corollary. It was the talking snake that wanted mankind to have free will in matters of good and evil. Unfortunately there is no explanaition as to why this talking snake wanted to do this.

It must be pointed that Genesis 3 actually explains God motivation. In Gen 3:22 it says "Then Yahweh God said, "The people have become as we are, knowing everything, both good and evil. What if they eat the fruit of the tree of life? Then they will live forever!" It would seem that Yahweh was concerned that know good from evil made mankind too god-like. Further, if Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of live, they would become immortal, thus even more god-like. To prevent this, Yahweh expelled Adam and Eve from Eden and prevented their return.

[stevencarrwork]

G_d gave us a free will - free will was not gained by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

For example, my daughter has a free will.
She can make a free will choice to do drugs or she can make a free will choice to not do drugs.

So, if you took a few angels, put them on guard outside the drugs, and gave them flaming swords to keep people away from the drugs, you would still claim that your daughter has freewill?

Or would you say that you had taken away free will from your daughter?

[themuzicman]

Michael,

Yes, that is my point. God did not want Adam and Eve to gain the knowledge of good and evil. Gaining that knowledge would allow Adam and Eve to excercise free will in matters of good and evil, and God did not want that. So we do agree.

Except that God DID give them a free will and the ability to exercize it. I think you're confusing freedom of will with freedom of ability.

Just because I can't flap my arms and fly to the moon doesn't mean I don't have free will. I just don't have that abilty.

Michael

[Tladatsi]

Except that God DID give them a free will and the ability to exercize it. I think you're confusing freedom of will with freedom of ability.

Just because I can't flap my arms and fly to the moon doesn't mean I don't have free will. I just don't have that abilty.

Michael

Exactly, your free will to fly to the moon means nothing without the ability to exercise it. The key element to ability is knowledge. Since God did not give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, they could not exercise their free will in matters of good and evil.

[themuzicman]

Exactly, your free will to fly to the moon means nothing without the ability to exercise it. The key element to ability is knowledge. Since God did not give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, they could not exercise their free will in matters of good and evil.
But He DID give them knowledge of not eating of the tree, and knowledge of what would happen if the DID eat of the tree, so they had sufficient knowledge to freely choose correctly (and were told the correct decision), and screwed up.

So, your assertion is simply incorrect. They were told what not to do, thus enabling them to choose freely and with moral responsibility.

Michael

[Tladatsi]

But He DID give them knowledge of not eating of the tree, and knowledge of what would happen if the DID eat of the tree, so they had sufficient knowledge to freely choose correctly (and were told the correct decision), and screwed up.

So, your assertion is simply incorrect. They were told what not to do, thus enabling them to choose freely and with moral responsibility.

Michael

Michael,

Yes you are quite correct. I understand that God forbade Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were punished for gaining this knowledge (and the snake for giving it to them) and all that followed that.

However, God allowed Adam and Eve to gain many types of knowledge. In Genesis 2, God creates all of the plants and animals and Adams learns about them and names them. Why is this knowledge allowed? Adam and Eve are given the knowledge of language. Why is every other type of knowledge allowed but not the knowledge of good and evil?

Why not let Adam and Eve have this knowledge? Is there something inherently wrong with knowing good from evil? Why forbid it? What was God's purpose in forbiding Adam and Eve from gaining this knowledge?

[Red K kal]

How can God place 2 newly formed beings in a garden, with a forbidden tree right smack dab in the middle of it, and expect them not to eat from it? Isn't that considered entrapment? It's like putting Christmas presents directly under a tree, and placing a young child in front of it and commanding him not to open any.

[Soundsurfr]

How can God place 2 newly formed beings in a garden, with a forbidden tree right smack dab in the middle of it, and expect them not to eat from it? Isn't that considered entrapment? It's like putting Christmas presents directly under a tree, and placing a young child in front of it and commanding him not to open any.

Don't forget the very mischeivous talking snake he threw in to boot.

[Red K kal]

Yea, that's right. After looking over all his creation, he proclaimed it all was good, but an all-knowing God did not know that the clever, talking serpent was in the garden to boot!