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Tladatsi
March 2nd 2006, 01:53 AM
Do the souls of the dead rise to heaven and are then judged? Does God condemn the souls of the sinners the fiery pit of hell to be tormented by Satan and his minions? Do the souls of the righteous spend eternity in heaven? Not having died myself nor having met anyone who did, I cannot say from any first or even second hand accounts. However, if the Bible is any guide, that is not what happens.

The state of the dead is rarely discussed in the Bible. The few times that it is, the image presented is that of the dead sleeping beneath the earth in Sheol, both the righteous and the sinner together. Sheol is not “hell”, rather it is a hallow subterranean place where the souls of the righteous dead dwell.

An example is found in Gen 37:35 where Jacob says "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him.” Again in Gen 42:38 he says again “My son will not go down with you, for his brother Joseph is dead, and he alone is left of his mother's children. If anything should happen to him, you would bring my gray head down to Sheol in deep sorrow." Certainly Jacob does not believe his son Joseph is burning in hell and that he plans on joining him.

Likewise in 1 Sam 28 Saul uses a medium in Endor so he can speak with Samuel. The medium sees a spirit (elohim) rising up from the earth. When Samuel’s ghost realizes what has happened he complains of being "disturbed", as if he were awakened from sleep.

The souls of the sinners are found there too. In Numbers 16, the rebellious levites are consumed by the earth and sent to Sheol alive. In Kings and Chronicles the common phrase to described recently dead kings was he slept with his (fore) fathers, even those kings who "did evil in the eyes of God".

The souls of the dead, saint and sinner alike, are not active but quiescent. In Psalm 115:17 it says “The dead cannot sing praises to the Lord, for they have gone into the silence of the grave.” In Psalm 6:5 it says “For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?” In Psalm 31:17 it says “Don't let me be disgraced, O LORD, for I call out to you for help. Let the wicked be disgraced; let them lie silent in Sheol.”

In Mat 27:52 it describes those who arose from their graves when Jesus rose as "those who slept". Paul uses the same description in 1 Cr 15:20. Paul in 1 Th 4 compares the living with those who were put to sleep, i.e. the dead. Paul tells the Thesselonians that when the Lord descends from heaven, those sleeping (believers) will arise and along with the living (believers) shall meet the Lord in the air (between heaven and earth). The believers who were dead were clearly not in heaven or hell or all of 1 Th 4: 13-18 makes no sense whatsoever.

One of the most ancient expressions of the Christian thought is the Apostles Creed , which says - in part - "He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell (katelthonta eis ta katôtata). On the third day he rose again". Between His death on the cross and resurrection Jesus descended into hell to preach to the dead. This story is told in 1 Peter 3:19-20 and elipically in 1 Peter 4:6, 2 Corinthians 2:14 (if Sheol is included in "everyplace"), and Ephesian 4:8-10 (if we take that his ascent is from hell and the captives are the dead). This story has traditionally been described in English as the Harrowing of Hell. It is obviously at odds with the idea of the good going to heaven after death while the evil suffering in eternal hellfire.

As a general closing comment, nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that anyone goes to heaven, good or bad, when they die (except Enoch who did not die). Similarly, there is no fiery hell below (everything in Revelations occurs after God's Kingdom is established here on Earth and after the general resurection).

mentored1
March 2nd 2006, 07:36 PM
Well met T

I was interested to see this posted on here... I brought this whole line of interpretation and explanation up to some folks of brimstone & fire persuasion and found that it has a certain edge to it with that crowd... :shrug:

Nonetheless you presented a good case and your basic argument seems to be sound (though my rubber stamp isn't worth much :wink:)... Even when we do have references to separate, conscious existences in heaven/hell it's hard to pry them loose from symbolic passages (such as in Revelation). But the proviso of eternal blessing or eternal torment is a powerful motivator so I understand the tendency to want to avoid torment in the devout.

Even the account in Luke where the "rich" man dies and lifts up his eyes in hell, being in torments, complaining about the fire, etc... He petitions Abraham to send someone to his living relatives and Abraham refuses saying they wouldn't listen anyway. Is this a literal event or a symbolic one? It doesn't really matter because the dead aren't allowed to come back and tell us and we wouldn't believe them anyway - according to the text. It seems to be an allegory....

Anyway, interesting stuff - take care

Tladatsi
March 2nd 2006, 10:23 PM
Well met T

I was interested to see this posted on here... I brought this whole line of interpretation and explanation up to some folks of brimstone & fire persuasion and found that it has a certain edge to it with that crowd... :shrug:

Nonetheless you presented a good case and your basic argument seems to be sound (though my rubber stamp isn't worth much :wink:)... Even when we do have references to separate, conscious existences in heaven/hell it's hard to pry them loose from symbolic passages (such as in Revelation). But the proviso of eternal blessing or eternal torment is a powerful motivator so I understand the tendency to want to avoid torment in the devout.

Even the account in Luke where the "rich" man dies and lifts up his eyes in hell, being in torments, complaining about the fire, etc... He petitions Abraham to send someone to his living relatives and Abraham refuses saying they wouldn't listen anyway. Is this a literal event or a symbolic one? It doesn't really matter because the dead aren't allowed to come back and tell us and we wouldn't believe them anyway - according to the text. It seems to be an allegory....

Anyway, interesting stuff - take care

The funny thing is I had read the Bible plenty of times and it never occurred to me that almost nothing I was told that was in the Bible, was in the Bible. The whole heaven and hell thing is not there. Revelations with it's "Lake of Fire" and Pit are not the afterlife but what happens after the Kingdom of God is established here on earth and everyone (the good and the bad) are resurrected and then judged. This was one of the reasons I learned to read Hebrew, so I could get past alot of the loaded translations.

shunyadragon
March 3rd 2006, 12:45 AM
Do the souls of the dead rise to heaven and are then judged? Does God condemn the souls of the sinners the fiery pit of hell to be tormented by Satan and his minions? Do the souls of the righteous spend eternity in heaven? Not having died myself nor having met anyone who did, I cannot say from any first or even second hand accounts. However, if the Bible is any guide, that is not what happens.

The state of the dead is rarely discussed in the Bible. The few times that it is, the image presented is that of the dead sleeping beneath the earth in Sheol, both the righteous and the sinner together. Sheol is not “hell”, rather it is a hallow subterranean place where the souls of the righteous dead dwell.

One understanding of Sheol is that it is simply that the dead sleep in the grave, and not necessarily a hallow subterranean place, until resurrection or judgement. Some of the people who believe in the rapture believe in some version of this.