JW's and alcoholism (Split from JWs and Communion)

[Krusader]

Why is real wine interesting? Did you think we didn't drink wine (versus grape juice)?



Yes, it's a man-made tradition for only the 144K to drink. Charles Russell has visions from God, even while in the grave, and tells us all to not drink the wine. We listen to him because he is the true prophet. Praise be to Russell....Ahhhmen. (Bow your head in silence)

Yes, JWs do pass wine in the hall - but even more so, they drink it (and other alcoholic beverages) at home. There is a real problem with alcoholsim among the Witnesses, who are more concerned with smoking than with their high rate of alcoholism. Their second President, Rutherford, had a widely known abuse habit with alcohol.

[NonTrinitarian]

Yes, JWs do pass wine in the hall - but even more so, they drink it (and other alcoholic beverages) at home. There is a real problem with alcoholsim among the Witnesses, who are more concerned with smoking than with their high rate of alcoholism. Their second President, Rutherford, had a widely known abuse habit with alcohol.

Another unsubtantiated accusation by Crusader. Present your proof or verify you're a liar.

[Topherlee]

Another unsubtantiated accusation by Crusader. Present your proof or verify you're a liar.

He has no proof. But he has planted another seed that will reep more evil upon those who are YHVH God's children.

[Krusader]

He has no proof. But he has planted another seed that will reep more evil upon those who are YHVH God's children.

Unfortunately, anyone who has been in the Society for a while is aware of the alcohol use by members - and abuse of alcohol. Go to the internet for the research, or read this letter from a former JW:

http://www.jwic.com/disassoc.htm

[Sparko]

Look this is not where I wanted this thread to go to (talking about alcoholism) I will just defend Crusader and say that Rutherford's drinking problem was widely known about.

According to an inside source, Edward J. Ford, Jr., (who presently writes under a pseudonym because of his remaining ties to the Watchtower Society) Rutherford began to "drink to excess" and, when drunk, "the headquarters staff felt the wrath of his cursing tongue. Old timers say his drinking was covered up, to the degree possible, by associates [and future Society presidents] Frederick W. Franz and Nathan H. Knorr. It was they who showed a brilliance for manipulation and who dealt with Rutherford’s further decline into the realm of drunkenness and erratic behavior by encouraging him to build himself a house in California to spend his remaining years ‘writing in the sun.’"33 Ford was a Witness for over four decades. He worked on staff in the Society’s Bethel headquarters in Brooklyn for a number of years. He recalls conversations with his Witness father and his own contacts with Watchtower Society leaders. A. H. Macmillan, who served in headquarters under three Watchtower presidents and was "known to Jehovah’s Witnesses all over the world,"34 was a frequent weekend visitor in the Ford home. Although Macmillan was a loyal organization man and supportive of Rutherford, "he was critical of his drunkenness and irrational conduct." Shortly after Rutherford’s death, Ford was present when Macmillan told his father that Beth-Sarim was built "for no purpose other than to get the drunken and declining Rutherford out of Brooklyn."35 This was also confirmed later to Ford by Society attorney Hayden Covington, who directed the legal department and was elected vice president after Rutherford’s death. Covington "quoted Franz as saying, ‘they built the judge a house out in California just to get him out of Bethel.’" Covington also told Ford that it was Franz who "concocted the cover story...saying that the house was for the ancient prophets due back ‘any day’ in the pre-Armageddon resurrection."36

Can Rutherford’s excessive drinking be confirmed from other sources besides those cited by Ford? Walter Salter writes of his purchases for Rutherford: " I, at your orders, would purchase cases of whiskey at $60.00 a case, and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer. A bottle or two of liquor would not do; it was for THE PRESIDENT and nothing was too good for THE PRESIDENT."37 James Penton also cites evidence for Rutherford’s alcoholism in his book, Apocalypse Delayed.38

http://www.equip.org/free/DJ564.htm

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Now let's let the matter drop. If you wish to continue it. please respond to this message in a new thread (you can copy and paste my post here and begin a new thread on the topic)

[NonTrinitarian]

Unfortunately, anyone who has been in the Society for a while is aware of the alcohol use by members - and abuse of alcohol. Go to the internet for the research, or read this letter from a former JW:

http://www.jwic.com/disassoc.htm

Goodness. One letter from a disgruntled idiot! That's your proof of rampant alcoholism among JW's. The person who wrote that letter isn't the only idiot out there. Go find a mirror.

[Topherlee]

Unfortunately, anyone who has been in the Society for a while is aware of the alcohol use by members - and abuse of alcohol. Go to the internet for the research, or read this letter from a former JW:

http://www.jwic.com/disassoc.htm

Hipocrisy and prejudice; you still do not get it. Walk into any church in the U.S. and see how many people resemble this profile. Yeah, former anybody's will tend to denounce something they believed so much in the first place. JW's are people too.

People leave denominations for other denominations and it's not for the Word, it's because how it makes them feel. Pop culture is consuming Christianity and so many people are following by faith alone. Without the knowledge of the Word.
Yet, you do not see...

[Krusader]

Hipocrisy and prejudice; you still do not get it. Walk into any church in the U.S. and see how many people resemble this profile. Yeah, former anybody's will tend to denounce something they believed so much in the first place. JW's are people too.

People leave denominations for other denominations and it's not for the Word, it's because how it makes them feel. Pop culture is consuming Christianity and so many people are following by faith alone. Without the knowledge of the Word.
Yet, you do not see...

I have never know a JW with "knowledge of the Word." They have a knowledge of the "Watchtowers" and "Awakes," but when it comes to the Bible they are quite ignorant. They only parrot what they are taught down at the Hall - they memorize what they must say to householders. As for any independent thinking, that is simply excluded from their vocabulary.

Just recently a good friend who is married to a JW offered to sit down with him and read old Watchtowers with him to see what the Watchtower has taught through the years. He refused even to read old Watchtowers.

Talk about brainwashing - Brooklyn invented the word.

[Topherlee]

I have never know a JW with "knowledge of the Word." They have a knowledge of the "Watchtowers" and "Awakes," but when it comes to the Bible they are quite ignorant. They only parrot what they are taught down at the Hall - they memorize what they must say to householders. As for any independent thinking, that is simply excluded from their vocabulary.

Just recently a good friend who is married to a JW offered to sit down with him and read old Watchtowers with him to see what the Watchtower has taught through the years. He refused even to read old Watchtowers.

Talk about brainwashing - Brooklyn invented the word.

Are you saying you have knowledge of the Word? Have you not considered the fact that you may be brainwashed by the teachings of the apostate church of Babylon. If anything, your teachings originated in this city.

You take the fallibilty of one man and condemn the whole organization. What makes you perfect? A critic? You say that they are ignorant. Your the one who believes that there are three gods, not three, but one.?! huh?

You continue to criticise the sons of God as the Pharisees and Romans did. I bet if you had the authority you would crucify every Christian witness that declared Jehovahs name as Jesus did. You do not see that you repeat history. Gods children have always been persecuted and criticised by those who did not understand; take Jesus for an example. You lack the spirit my friend and that is what makes you blind.

[dizzle]

you got a live one Crusader (also apparently can't read penguins)

[Sparko]

you got a live one Crusader (also apparently can't read penguins)

:alky:

[Trout]

I wish Crusader had an avatar.

[anewlife]

Look this is not where I wanted this thread to go to (talking about alcoholism) I will just defend Crusader and say that Rutherford's drinking problem was widely known about.

According to an inside source, Edward J. Ford, Jr., (who presently writes under a pseudonym because of his remaining ties to the Watchtower Society) Rutherford began to "drink to excess" and, when drunk, "the headquarters staff felt the wrath of his cursing tongue. Old timers say his drinking was covered up, to the degree possible, by associates [and future Society presidents] Frederick W. Franz and Nathan H. Knorr. It was they who showed a brilliance for manipulation and who dealt with Rutherford’s further decline into the realm of drunkenness and erratic behavior by encouraging him to build himself a house in California to spend his remaining years ‘writing in the sun.’"33 Ford was a Witness for over four decades. He worked on staff in the Society’s Bethel headquarters in Brooklyn for a number of years. He recalls conversations with his Witness father and his own contacts with Watchtower Society leaders. A. H. Macmillan, who served in headquarters under three Watchtower presidents and was "known to Jehovah’s Witnesses all over the world,"34 was a frequent weekend visitor in the Ford home. Although Macmillan was a loyal organization man and supportive of Rutherford, "he was critical of his drunkenness and irrational conduct." Shortly after Rutherford’s death, Ford was present when Macmillan told his father that Beth-Sarim was built "for no purpose other than to get the drunken and declining Rutherford out of Brooklyn."35 This was also confirmed later to Ford by Society attorney Hayden Covington, who directed the legal department and was elected vice president after Rutherford’s death. Covington "quoted Franz as saying, ‘they built the judge a house out in California just to get him out of Bethel.’" Covington also told Ford that it was Franz who "concocted the cover story...saying that the house was for the ancient prophets due back ‘any day’ in the pre-Armageddon resurrection."36

Can Rutherford’s excessive drinking be confirmed from other sources besides those cited by Ford? Walter Salter writes of his purchases for Rutherford: " I, at your orders, would purchase cases of whiskey at $60.00 a case, and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer. A bottle or two of liquor would not do; it was for THE PRESIDENT and nothing was too good for THE PRESIDENT."37 James Penton also cites evidence for Rutherford’s alcoholism in his book, Apocalypse Delayed.38

http://www.equip.org/free/DJ564.htm

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Now let's let the matter drop. If you wish to continue it. please respond to this message in a new thread (you can copy and paste my post here and begin a new thread on the topic)




I agree, it would be like comparing Martin Luther's anti-semitism and trying to discredit the reformation based solely upon his persona. I do question CRT's view on Christ's deity and of course eschatology but....:ahem:

[Aletheia]

I left JW's about 7 years ago. So did my husband. In fact, we met on an ex-JW chat forum.

That said, my mother, an uncle, a couple of aunts, many cousins and many former friends are all JWs. My mother in law, father in law, brothers in law and sisters in law are all JWs.

They aren't a bunch of alcoholics. In fact many of them don't drink at all. Painting all JWs as over-indulgent alcohol addicts doesn't accomplish anything.

Don't agree with the theology. I don't. Argue the beliefs rather than dissing the believers.

:smile:

[Sparko]

I know a bunch of catholics and baptists that drink to excess too. I agree that painting JW's as a bunch of alcoholics is not really fair.