Christ the firstfruits and the resurrection of the dead

[Xmansmommy]

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

I am interested primarily in the partial preterist view of the Resurrection of those that belong to Christ, but I am open for discussion from futurists as well. My question is specifically, do you as a partial preterist believe the OT saints as well as saints today are still sleeping in the grave until the Resurrection or do you believe this is a past event? Is there a general concensus amongst partial preterists on this issue?

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

I am interested primarily in the partial preterist view of the Resurrection of those that belong to Christ, but I am open for discussion from futurists as well. My question is specifically, do you as a partial preterist believe the OT saints as well as saints today are still sleeping in the grave until the Resurrection or do you believe this is a past event? Is there a general concensus amongst partial preterists on this issue?

I believe that those who "belong to Christ" include the OT saints.

[Xmansmommy]

I believe that those who "belong to Christ" include the OT saints.

Thanks and so do I Faramir. I was asking though if you believe they obtained a resurrection before Christ, after Christ or are they awaiting the Resurrection at a future date?

[Hitch]

Thanks and so do I Faramir. I was asking though if you believe they obtained a resurrection before Christ, after Christ or are they awaiting the Resurrection at a future date?Nearly 100% orthodox preterist expect a resurrection of man at the end of history.

Take care

H

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Thanks and so do I Faramir. I was asking though if you believe they obtained a resurrection before Christ, after Christ or are they awaiting the Resurrection at a future date?

I've never heard of any option other than a reserrection after Christ at the end of the world (or the heretical no physical resurrection at all).

With, of course, the exception of the resurrected saints mentioned in Matthew.

[dizzle]

that is the orthodox preterist view - I have never heard a divergance - if there is a divergance it would be a fringe view (nothing surprises me any more about what people think so I wouldn't rule out that there is someone in my "camp" that would have some twist on it)

[Xmansmommy]

You guys have never run into Christians that believe Adam, Noah, Abraham and all OT saints died and went to heaven? Seriously? :huh:

[{Undersecretary of Internal Affairs}]

You guys have never run into Christians that believe Adam, Noah, Abraham and all OT saints died and went to heaven? Seriously? :huh:
What do you mean?

[Xmansmommy]

I mean, that I know many Christians believe that OT saints were resurrected to eternal life when they died. Some believe they were resurrected after Jesus was (Matt 27:52-53).

Do partial preterists believe that OT saints are still asleep (in the grave) awaiting their resurrection to eternal life?

[{Undersecretary of Internal Affairs}]

I mean, that I know many Christians believe that OT saints were resurrected to eternal life when they died. Some believe they were resurrected after Jesus was (Matt 27:52-53).

Do partial preterists believe that OT saints are still asleep (in the grave) awaiting their resurrection to eternal life?
Oh. Actually, I know a lot of christians who when a christian dies will tell you that they are now in heaven, too. But, I think to be consistent, preterists would say that OT saints still sleep until the resurrection... :shrug: at least AFAICS.

[spiritmech]

I mean, that I know many Christians believe that OT saints were resurrected to eternal life when they died. Some believe they were resurrected after Jesus was (Matt 27:52-53).

Do partial preterists believe that OT saints are still asleep (in the grave) awaiting their resurrection to eternal life?
I believe that somehow OT saints are with God in heaven and can hear our requests for intercession. This happened when Jesus was resurrected.

But I also believe there is a fully bodily resurrection in which both the OT saints and the NT saints will receive their new bodies.

If I had to pin a date on the resurrection, it'd be at the end of time. Resurrection implies bodily regeneration. I don't really count the OT saints being rescued from hell as a resurrection, personally.

sm

[dizzle]

XXM, by your astonishment, it appears you are equivocating on the word "resurrection" and equating it with "being in heaven". No orthodox person (with the exception of those included in the "many" in Matthew) believes that the OT saints have been resurrected. Nearly every orthodox person (not all, such as the monists but they are in the minority) believe that the OT saints are "in heaven" - you can't put a boutique definition into terms that have historical meaning in certain contexts. If you know of persons who claim that OT saints were resurrected when they died, such person is committing foundational heresy IF they actually understand and properly define resurrection - and since the majority of posters here would consider the resurrection a deal-breaker, it is not astonishing that we would not know of any Christians who claim differently since such different claims are not Christian claims. If they are sloppy and equivocating on terminology it would take a little more digging to see if it is heretical or merely confused. I think everyone was pretty clear that they were referring to resurrection which was the original question, not being present in heaven.

So out of that long paragraph in short - with the exception of monists (who don't believe the soul/spirit survives death), nealy all orthodox people believe that the OT and NT dead souls/spirits are with Christ awaiting the resurrection to eternal life. Their bodies are in the grave awaiting the same event.

[Xmansmommy]

XXM you are equivocating on the word "resurrection" and equating it with "being in heaven".

Not intentionally DD. It's my understanding that mainstream Christianity believes that people that die are resurrected to eternal life in heaven. If that isn't your view, then please explain how a person is in heaven without a resurrected body, thanks.

No orthodox person (with the exception of those included in the "many" in Matthew) believes that the OT saints have been resurrected.

What do orthodox persons do with the "many" in Matthew? Who are these "many?"

Nearly every orthodox person (not all, such as the monists but they are in the minority)

I'm gonna ask again in this thread because I've asked before and don't recall an answer. What exactly is a monist? I'm not familiar with that term.

believe that the OT saints are "in heaven" - you can't put a definition into terms that others do not accept.

I'm not attempting to do that. I'm attempting to have you and others define your terms so that I can have a better understanding of where you're coming from.

I think everyone was pretty clear that they were referring to resurrection which was the original question, not being present in heaven.

DD, you seem to think that I've intentionally misrepresented something here and I'm not quite sure why. Rest assured that I think I've been pretty clear from the beginning that most of the Christians I know (outside of TWeb) think that when a person dies (OT or NT) they are resurrected to eternal life. I've recently had discussions with MANY who can't even fathom that Adam, Noah, etc, haven't been resurrected yet. Surely you've known Christians with this view, yes?

[Xmansmommy]

Nearly 100% orthodox preterist expect a resurrection of man at the end of history.

Take care

H

Thank you Hitch. :smile:

[Xmansmommy]

Oh. Actually, I know a lot of christians who when a christian dies will tell you that they are now in heaven, too. But, I think to be consistent, preterists would say that OT saints still sleep until the resurrection... :shrug: at least AFAICS.

Thanks Tim, I think I'm beginning to understand what partial preterists believe. I think. :dizzy:

[dizzle]

XMM re-read my post. I tend to go back and add words to avoid misunderstandings - you quoted the "first draft." I think you will see the added words will change your impression that I was accusing you of maliciously doing anything and I will write more when I can - I am about to go to work this morning. If not, I would ask you to point out where I said you intentionally did something improper (as in deviously or maliciously). A person can equivocate for many reasons, most of the time it is not intentional but due to a lack of precision in parsing before posting or a lack of information. Since this has been a general subject of interest with you for quite some time, I did assume or expect a greater attempt at precision - I had assumed that you understood what the orthodox view is for the most part but perhaps not the basis for it. Nothing said in this thread is novel or unusual or "advanced." If that assumption is incorrect, no problem, I will adjust that assumption.

[bloodrose]

I'm actually interested in where the bible says that any human goes "to Hevean"? I realize that we will be glorified in future grace, but is that Heaven (capital H or not) or the new earth, or someplace else? I can't find any references of us going to heaven. Weird what we take for granted, hey?

[dizzle]

I'm actually interested in where the bible says that any human goes "to Hevean"? I realize that we will be glorified in future grace, but is that Heaven (capital H or not) or the new earth, or someplace else? I can't find any references of us going to heaven. Weird what we take for granted, hey?

I use the word to mean "with Christ" and I think that is what the majority of Christian believe when they use that term. There are many verses that can be used to support this though the exact phrase "to heaven" may not be used.

Again monists (more on that XMM, perhaps a monist will come and explain it themselves - such as theonomy - which would be preferable) would not accept that anyone is anywhere but dead dead right now.

[{Undersecretary of Internal Affairs}]

Oh ok, I missed spotting the misunderstanding over definitions anyway. :doh: Guess I'm a bit too tired... :ahem:
Yeah, now that I think about it, one doesn't have to be resurrected to be "in heaven", awaiting the resurrection and judgement.

[dizzle]

There is thread on monism a bit here

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=30223

so the definition and beliefs of monism on this subject can be read there is pretty good detail

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Linda:


Like Dee Dee, when you said "Resurrection" I thought you were referring to a physical, bodily resurrection. So please understand my previous answer in that light.

IOW, I believe that the OT saints will be physically resurrected with the rest of us on judgment day. I also believe that they are "in heaven" now.

FYI. The "many saints" in Matthew referres to a passage (not sure exactly where, but in the crucifixion narative) where Matthew describes many dead saint being raised at the time of the crucifixion.

[Xmansmommy]

Linda:


Like Dee Dee, when you said "Resurrection" I thought you were referring to a physical, bodily resurrection. So please understand my previous answer in that light.

And I can see why the misunderstanding. I do apologize for that. I guess I didn't realize that most here believe that being in heaven doesn't mean being resurrected.

IOW, I believe that the OT saints will be physically resurrected with the rest of us on judgment day. I also believe that they are "in heaven" now.

This intrigues me. I'm curious if someone here can explain it to me? I haven't checked out DD's link yet, but I certainly intend to. I hope to find answers there too.

FYI. The "many saints" in Matthew referres to a passage (not sure exactly where, but in the crucifixion narative) where Matthew describes many dead saint being raised at the time of the crucifixion.

Yes, Matthew 27:52-53.

[dizzle]

Linda that link is to a old thread of yours when theonomy was explaining the resurrection of the wicked in light of his monism.

[Xmansmommy]

Yes I see now DD. What is monism though?

[Aletheia]

Yes I see now DD. What is monism though?

I'll take a stab at it. :wink:

Monism is the view that we (humans) are not a dualistic combination of an immaterial soul/spirit and material body. The idea is that humans were created on the earth and then animated with the breath of life (spirit of God). This animating force goes back to God upon our death. What is "us" dies. The hope of a future life lies in a physical resurrection upon the earth. What we are, our personalities and memories, will be restored to us by God (who remembers perfectly everything about us) at this physical resurrection.

A modified monist view might be that upon death, what is "us" (personalities and memories) is given a new immaterial form, which can then go onto another sort of existence.

A dualist perspective might be that we had pre-existent souls/spirits that were put into our physical bodies upon conception or birth, or that when we are conceived an immaterial soul comes into existence then.

I was a JW, and as such was a monist. I'm not sure what I believe now. I'm still reading and weighing my options. At this point I probably fall into the modified monist position. :smile:

[dizzle]

AR gave a pretty good definition. Is that clear or should I try to explain further?

AR - though Theonomy has tried a bit to convince me of monism, and it solves on passage that I have brooded on very well, IMHO it does not make sense of many others, and I find it untenable. Most particularly (and yes I have heard the monist - both orthodox and cultic - explanations) the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Another example would be the souls under the altar in Revelation. Theonomy explained that one well with the OT example of Abel's blood crying out, but upon further examination I find that explanation unsatisfactory - the "personalization" goes too far and does not fit IMHO. Your modified monist view would fit, but I find that a strange position that is for all practical purposes the same as dualism quite honestly.

[Aletheia]

Your modified monist view would fit, but I find that a strange position that is for all practical purposes the same as dualism quite honestly.

Yeah, I know it's a rather unconventional position and for all practical purposes, it does have the same end as dualism. It makes the most sense to me though. It allows for the explanation of ruach, nephesh and neshama in the Hebrew (Genesis), as well as for the "heaven" language found in other passages.

I'm fine with it being called qualified monism or qualified dualism. Tomatoe / tamawto. :teeth:

[Xmansmommy]

Thanks AR, I have to contemplate that for a while. :smile:

[Hitch]

You guys have never run into Christians that believe Adam, Noah, Abraham and all OT saints died and went to heaven? Seriously? :huh:That is not your original question.


I am interested primarily in the partial preterist view of the Resurrection of those that belong to Christ, but I am open for discussion from futurists as well. My question is specifically, do you as a partial preterist believe the OT saints as well as saints today are still sleeping in the grave until the Resurrection or do you believe this is a past event? Is there a general concensus amongst partial preterists on this issue?

The heavenly presence of departed saints is recorded in the Apocalypse, and does not require bodily resurrection.

take care

Hitch



H

[Hitch]

I mean, that I know many Christians believe that OT saints were resurrected to eternal life when they died. Some believe they were resurrected after Jesus was (Matt 27:52-53).

Do partial preterists believe that OT saints are still asleep (in the grave) awaiting their resurrection to eternal life? I've heard a great deal made of this on occasion. The idea that those spoken of were the heros of the OT scriptures is wholly unfounded. They were persons known in the local area who were very recently deceased. Just as those previously raised by our Lord and the many raised by the disciples

H

[dizzle]

It isn't wholly unfounded unless you think that I am likely to believe something that is of such a category. I agree that it is not perfectly clear, but I have a foundation for believing so.

That would be another thread however - it was just listed here as one that some people believe to cover the bases.

[Hitch]

It isn't wholly unfounded unless you think that I am likely to believe something that is of such a category. I agree that it is not perfectly clear, but I have a foundation for believing so.

That would be another thread however - it was just listed here as one that some people believe to cover the bases.Well as Perot once said 'Im all ears'....

[spiritmech]

I've heard a great deal made of this on occasion. The idea that those spoken of were the heros of the OT scriptures is wholly unfounded. They were persons known in the local area who were very recently deceased. Just as those previously raised by our Lord and the many raised by the disciples

H

I don't believe these are mutually exclusive. I don't think those particular people were OT saints, but somehow OT saints do seem to be aware of what's going on, per Hebrews Ch. 11.
sm

[Xmansmommy]

That is not your original question.

I think we've cleared up the misunderstanding, thanks.

I am interested primarily in the partial preterist view of the Resurrection of those that belong to Christ, but I am open for discussion from futurists as well. My question is specifically, do you as a partial preterist believe the OT saints as well as saints today are still sleeping in the grave until the Resurrection or do you believe this is a past event? Is there a general concensus amongst partial preterists on this issue?

I thought I was being very specific when I asked if they thought they are still sleeping in the grave but I've come to realize that people believe that they can have a presence in heaven yet at the same time be sleeping in the grave. This I did not know and thus contributed to the confusion.

The heavenly presence of departed saints is recorded in the Apocalypse, and does not require bodily resurrection.

take care

Hitch



H

Again, something I was not aware of. So now I'm at least educated that the view exists. I'd love to see why, if someone were so inclined. :wink: Thanks!

You take care too.
Linda

[dizzle]

Linda I hope to respond more this weekend - I am hoping though that this thread doesn't go off in the direction of dualism v monism. My view will come dualism, and I acknowledge right up front that monists would disagree, but stating their position is a bit less complex - no presence in heaven now - the body/soul/spirit is sleeping in the grave as they are one indivisible unity.

[Hitch]

I don't believe these are mutually exclusive. I don't think those particular people were OT saints, but somehow OT saints do seem to be aware of what's going on, per Hebrews Ch. 11.
smThe saints in Heaven are seen interceeding for those still in the body. It seems reasonable that this is one of their common occupations

Take care

H

[Hitch]

I think we've cleared up the misunderstanding, thanks.



I thought I was being very specific when I asked if they thought they are still sleeping in the grave but I've come to realize that people believe that they can have a presence in heaven yet at the same time be sleeping in the grave. This I did not know and thus contributed to the confusion.



Again, something I was not aware of. So now I'm at least educated that the view exists. I'd love to see why, if someone were so inclined. :wink: Thanks! This is really pretty simple. The eternal state cannot begin so long as time is,from our view, passing. The beliver we know gains eternal life at conversion. Is this nullified by the death of the body? Of course not. So if we live ,while in the flesh, in the heavenly places, then in death we are even closer to Him ,no longer apt to sin because of the flesh. add to that John's specific claim that he sees the 'souls' of the saints in Heaven, not the bodies ,glorified or otherwise.

You take care too.
Linda Where do you suppose is the record of the resurrection of Moses?