How Logical is it to be a christian?

[KyleX0rz]

I know I'm not suppose to be posting in here, but I only want non theist responses to this question, and explinations. I'm starting to wonder if I abbadonned logic by becomming a christian because I was depressed a 2 years ago..

[Minnesota]

Of course, we have no why you abandoned logic, but it's clear that to be a Christian requires one to suspend it from time to time. Unwavering logic is the silver bullet of Christianity.

[KyleX0rz]

Of course, we have no why you abandoned logic, but it's clear that to be a Christian requires one to suspend it from time to time. Unwavering logic is the silver bullet of Christianity.'

the why, youre looking for I'm going to say is depression, I stopped most of my rational thinking to feel good, good reason to stop being an agnostic eh...?

and from the thread I posted in the christian side seems to be making think I've made a mistake..but none the less I do agree..about unwavering logic

[Minnesota]

the why, youre looking for I'm going to say is depression, I stopped most of my rational thinking to feel good, good reason to stop being an agnostic eh...?

Whatever makes you happy, I guess. In fact, I believe this is the number one reason proplr take up Christianity; it makes them feel better. So you have LOTS of company. LOTS!

[Seasanctuary]

I know I'm not suppose to be posting in here, but I only want non theist responses to this question, and explinations. I'm starting to wonder if I abbadonned logic by becomming a christian because I was depressed a 2 years ago..

I think the word "logical" is misused a lot, as is the case here. Are you explicitly confirming that { A } and { A -> B} and { !B } by becoming a Christian? That sort of thing would go against logic, but I doubt you did such a thing. People -- whether Christian, Atheist, Muslim or otherwise -- tend to have decent coherence among their beliefs. They might be incorrect or they might not have a particularly compelling reason for belief to anyone else...but that doesn't mean they're being "illogical."

[XaositectCrayon]

logical? to some maybe....

to me no it's actually ridiculous... does that meen I am right? not necessarily

we can shave our entiretys with Occam's Razor and still tell each other apart

a stretch to one man is a fit to another

[autoartist]

I am a very logical person. I was a Christian for over 10 yrs.
I studied and practiced Christianity during that time. I have read countless Christian books including the Bible.

The only logic I find in Christianity is that it helps ppl deal w/ life.
Other than that it is illogical.

For me the Bible isn't enough, Christian testimony isn't enough. Studying creation isn't enough.

Only God revealing himself to me would be enough to make me a believer again.

[mentored1]

Well met Kyle

I know I'm not suppose to be posting in here, but I only want non theist responses to this question, and explinations. I'm starting to wonder if I abbadonned logic by becomming a christian because I was depressed a 2 years ago..

You'll get into all sorts of fuzzy definitions of what's logical and illogical - that aside I don't think you need worry about being illogical in your pursuit of faith; especially that it arose from a deep-seated need.

Finding something to fill the "void" of depression is, IMO, the essence of logic. Given the situation and the need it seems very reasonable to turn to something that offered to fill that need - both in this life and, if it exists, the next one. Suffice to say I had the same experience.

If you're questioning that decision now don't look at it as an act of foolishness but rather look at it as an act of progression. Christianity filled a need in your life at that point - does it still fill that need? Or are you at a point where something else is required in your life? Logic is, at least to me, irrelevant when one is in need of something. Consider what it is you're looking for and progress from there.

Take care

[Seasanctuary]

Finding something to fill the "void" of depression is, IMO, the essence of logic.

*boggle*

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Bagger_Vance]

I think that survival is the only logic. If you need christianity and Jesus to get you through the day then it is logical for you to use it right now. Maybe one day you can get past it but so long as it is used to positively affect you then keep it. Just don't oppress others or get duped by people into giving your check or life for the belief.

[notasheep]

I'm starting to wonder if I abbadonned logic by becomming a christian because I was depressed a 2 years ago..

And I abandoned Christianity 2 years ago because I was "philosophically depressed." I started having questions, Christianity didn't have the answers, which was disturbing, and I drifted away.

[Soundsurfr]

And I abandoned Christianity 2 years ago because I was "philosophically depressed." I started having questions, Christianity didn't have the answers, which was disturbing, and I drifted away.

I don't know what you're all talking about.

It makes perfect sense that there are three persons who make up a monotheistic God.

It is perfectly logical that an omnipotent being would need to experience pain and death in order to absolve some human creatures of wrongdoing.

It is totally understandable that person A should undergo punishment for the acts and decisions of person B.

It is not at all illogical that an omnipotent God would need to wage war and execute elaborate plans against another creature or group of creatures who opposes it.

It is totally reasonable to maintain that an eternity of torment is just punishment for a lack of belief in an invisible entity.

Get with the program.

[Meh_Gerbil]

I don't know what you're all talking about.

It makes perfect sense that there are three persons who make up a monotheistic God.

It is perfectly logical that an omnipotent being would need to experience pain and death in order to absolve some human creatures of wrongdoing.

It is totally understandable that person A should undergo punishment for the acts and decisions of person B.

It is not at all illogical that an omnipotent God would need to wage war and execute elaborate plans against another creature or group of creatures who opposes it.

It is totally reasonable to maintain that an eternity of torment is just punishment for a lack of belief in an invisible entity.

Get with the program.

And your more logical world view is that none of the pain has a purpose, that none of this is going anywhere, and that ultimately there is no justice, no evil, and no good.

<boggle>

Yes... that answers all of my questions....

:eek:

[Soundsurfr]

And your more logical world view is that none of the pain has a purpose, that none of this is going anywhere, and that ultimately there is no justice, no evil, and no good.

Whose position is that?

<boggle>

Yes... that answers all of my questions....

:eek:

Sorry Gerb. I didn't realize it was the atheist's job to answer all of your questions.

:ahem:

[Meh_Gerbil]

Sorry Gerb. I didn't realize it was the atheist's job to answer all of your questions.

:ahem:

Well you just went to great length to claim none of my answers make sense - I assumed that you had some of your own to offer.....

Maybe not.

[Soundsurfr]

Well you just went to great length to claim none of my answers make sense - I assumed that you had some of your own to offer.....

Maybe not.

While we're discussing logic, we can talk about how illogical it is to make unsupported assumptions.

[Meh_Gerbil]

While we're discussing logic, we can talk about how illogical it is to make unsupported assumptions.

So it was illogical for me to assume that you had answers - I'll admit that is the case. I'm used to the concept of "If you are gonna criticize others you better have answers of your own to offer".

I've corrected my position now.
I'm of the mind you criticize others but have no answers to offer.

Did I get that right?

[Zeluvia]

So it was illogical for me to assume that you had answers - I'll admit that is the case. I'm used to the concept of "If you are gonna criticize others you better have answers of your own to offer".

I've corrected my position now.
I'm of the mind you criticize others but have no answers to offer.

Did I get that right?
Bad Gerbil !! this is not your section !!

No fresh lettuce for you !! = )

[Soundsurfr]

So it was illogical for me to assume that you had answers - I'll admit that is the case. I'm used to the concept of "If you are gonna criticize others you better have answers of your own to offer".

I've corrected my position now.
I'm of the mind you criticize others but have no answers to offer.

Did I get that right?

As usual, no. I am not "criticizing others". I am criticizing their assertions. If someone makes an assertion, they should be willing to put it out for criticism. It is not incumbent upon those who comment to offer a counter-assertion. Nor should it be incumbent upon those who comment to have the final answer to the question.

Don't you agree?

[mentored1]

*boggle*

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Why Sea, I'm touched for your concern regarding my comprehension! :blush:

I'm assuming you mean my use of "void" - yes, I do understand the implications and I think the confusion may arise from the position such a word is assumed in various world-views.

Having said that, how do you perceive "void" and what place does it play in your perspective on life, the universe, and everything? :wink:

take care

[Bagger_Vance]

Well you just went to great length to claim none of my answers make sense - I assumed that you had some of your own to offer.....

Maybe not.

All you are interested in is answers that make you feel better. You want to believe in justice, truth(your version), and a city lined with streets of gold and a reserved mansion just for you. Don't pretend anyone has real answers however. You have hopes and you want the atheist to provide similar hopes or get off of your cloud.

[XaositectCrayon]

So it was illogical for me to assume that you had answers - I'll admit that is the case. I'm used to the concept of "If you are gonna criticize others you better have answers of your own to offer".

I've corrected my position now.
I'm of the mind you criticize others but have no answers to offer.

Did I get that right?
did you get lost on your way to the appy polly loggy section?

anyways, the suffering's purpose is to make you stronger and more fit to be crushed by the gears of life. If you fail to become stronger you're supposed to get eaten but that doesnt happen much anymore does it?

[Zeluvia]

did you get lost on your way to the appy polly loggy section?

anyways, the suffering's purpose is to make you stronger and more fit to be crushed by the gears of life. If you fail to become stronger you're supposed to get eaten but that doesnt happen much anymore does it?
I have never tried gerbil, roasted, stuffed or flame broiled, how do you like yours?

[XaositectCrayon]

I have never tried gerbil, roasted, stuffed or flame broiled, how do you like yours?
while the hearts still beating

:yummy:

[Gaytheist]

I know I'm not suppose to be posting in here, but I only want non theist responses to this question, and explinations. I'm starting to wonder if I abbadonned logic by becomming a christian because I was depressed a 2 years ago..
Let's not talk about logic for a minute, let's talk about evidence. What are your beliefs that you feel identify you as a Christian? What is the evidence in support of those beliefs? Apply the same kind of standards, criteria, analysis to those beliefs as you do to other beliefs. Do they hold up? Some think so, I do not. Let's talk about it.

[Minnesota]

Gaytheist,

FYI
This forum, Naturalism 101, is off limits to theists so don't expect a reply from KyleX0rz. Besides, he hasn't been around since March 20th.

[djconklin]

> it's clear that to be a Christian requires one to suspend it from time to time.

Not for me!

[Nanimose]

I think that if a person's testimony was actually something sacred and divine, 99% of true testimonies would be "I made the mistake of being surrounded by a group of believers and I was manipulated into believing, I haven't been the same since". If you've seen the episode of South Park with Al Gore, replace "manbearpig" with 'Jesus' and you have the majority of Christians right there. Some like to talk about spirits just to give the feel that what happened in the bible is true and it's still going on today, just like the Manbearpig tracking station (they care more about what others think of it than knowning for sure that it exists themselves, most have no consideration for the importance of truth). They give all this excitement and attention to it, because it's a manipulation act, misery likes company, it's miserable being the only one believing in something Irrational and at times delusional,. There is no one that believes in God who wasn't influenced into it by others. The worst mistake you can make if you have questions of spirituality is asking someone who already has a faith, they get all excited that someone is actually talking to them and they try to keep you talking to them through manipulation. South Park is stupid but I seen that episode and it reminded me of my drunk fornicating christian uncle. No one that believes in God has ever had any reason to, besides maybe reading something in the bible which appeals to weak human emotion that we all might be susceptible to. 100% naturalism for me, only be around people that know and care about their own mental and physical health. When it comes down to it, Sin really is Death, Atheist try to be good because it makes sense, Theist try to be Good to please and serve a fictional character (which in the long run ends up being destructive), this realization turned me towards Naturalism.

[Nanimose]

One logical reason to be a Christian is the blood of the martyrs. Thousands of early Christians willingly died rather than sacrifice to the idols of Rome, or even eat the food offered to the Roman gods.

These people were much closer to the time of Christ than us, and they were completely convinced of Jesus' divinity. Their sacrifice proves it - why die a horrible death for nothing?

They knew beyond doubt Jesus was God, and their evidence rings true throughout the ages.

One thing I need to know before I make a decision is Who were the martyrs? What was their education history? Were they healthy? What did their family and friends think of them? What were their views on political issues? There's more but I don't think it's necessary. Jesus Christ didn't know about the Dinosaurs, until there's a reason to I can't take these past lives, these people didn't even know about electricity. Lots of people have died for no reason at all, Why even die at all? if I were a small animal I don't think I'd follow my species while they were running off a cliff (I don't think this is a debate about evolution, though). What did they know about Jesus that we don't? Only groups of people and not everyone have found their evidence to be true, throughout the ages.

[Nanimose]

I'm serious, Who were the Martyrs? I think that I pretty much admitted ignorance about that. Galileo and Copernicus didn't conform, at the time they lived they were the only ones who believed what they did, and now everyone and their parents know that they were telling the truth. Wasn't it the theist? I mean Catholic church that opposed (I'll guess but I'm probably wrong because I don't know) Galileo? And then after his death admit that they were wrong. With a limited amount of knowledge you can't be sure or be able to dig too far to get to truth, there's more of a chance of making a mistake. I don't remember saying anything about intelligence, I'm sure intelligent people existed in the past but it's not like they were sure or knew what they thought, that has nothing to do with this. You can only know what's been proven, we're intelligent now and we're more advanced, but I don't think that means we know the exact truth or everything. There's still more improvement to happen in the future. The things we know about and are sure about now I hope will be primitive in the future cause if it's not, that would be stupid. I talk of things that can be explained to and accepted by everyone (stuff that we would tell kids, things that are safe to say), knowledge matters more than intelligence.

[Nanimose]

I guess I should have just looked it up before asking. The fact that anyone can be a martyr makes it unappealing to me, and making the decision to believe in something that you can't be sure of is delusional. I think the writers of the Bible had Pascal's Wager in mind when they talked about Eternal Life, and how unbelievers are evil and falling short of something good in the bible. This is just a technique to try to make Atheists Jealous of what Christians supposedly will have. I don't find Eternal Life, Heaven or anything Divine appealing to me at all, Blaise Pascal is biased and he doesn't know what everybody likes. Compared to the options that the Bible offers you're pushed into belief, I wonder who in there right mind, wants to Go to Hell or thrown into non-existence? Why would I want eternal life? Everybody that I like to be around won't be in heaven according to the bible, and most people that get on my nerves will. I don't personally know God, so I can't say if I'd like him, that's messed up that I'm forced to have a good opinion of him if he exists. Seriously with a hint of sarcasm, I think I'd find myself happier in Hell. I'm biased and opinionated but I'm not saying that what I say should be thought by others, and I never will.

[Nanimose]

That's the point, mon ami. The martyrs were dead certain that they were right. That many people over that many centuries were not delusional.

And yes, certain parts of Christianity are unappealing. It is not a religion for sissies. It is, however, true. And as surely as your soul existed before you were born, it will live on someplace after you are dead. Why not make the best of things?

You asked for logical reasons to be a Christian and these were just a couple. If this discussion made you uncomfortable, perhaps you are in the early stages of a spiritual awakening. Just keep an open mind, and God wil take care of the rest.

:huh:

I hope that my replying doesn't make this worse, I don't see how someone being killed makes their views correct, why didn't these people prove that God exists before they decided to be killed? Under these conditions you are also saying that what suicide bombers in the middle east are doing is correct, Martyrdom. Al Qaeda is not delusional either? They also seem to be dead certain that they are correct. People who believe in 'Love' and can't accept death the way it is are sissies, those views are part of Christianity but I don't think there's an established standard on who's a sissy and who's not. I don't think it's a sure thing yet (I'm trying to be nice, I'm not open to these things at all) that there's a soul or that a person who's just been born has been living for quite some time, or that there is an afterlife. I need proof/evidence for divine suggestions. Who says that I'm not making the best of things right now, I love life and that's a little judgmental. I don't remember asking any questions, I am not uncomfortable and if spiritual awakening existed or is not something you just made up, it should've happened a long time (few years) ago. It hurts my head to read the last sentence.

[HRG_new]

To start check out Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr). Check out Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr) while you are there for a dose of pragmatism from somebody more knowldgeable than you and I put together.

Come on. Pascal's Wager is based on a false dichotomy: atheist or Christian. The conceivable existence of gods who punish false believers, but are tolerant of atheists destroys the rational basis of the Wager.

The Wager also fallaciously assumes that beliefs can be freely chosen.

In effect, Pascal would recommend picking the religion which predicts the worst eternal torture of unbelievers - a minimal regret strategy.

While you are trying to figure out while people willingly die - even today - rather than make a simple statement that Jesus Christ was not the son of God try this.

People willingly die today as Djihad warriors. Jews in the Middle Ages willingly died instead of converting to Christianity. There seems to be no correlation between the willingness to die for a faith, and the correctness of this faith.

BTW, there is no evidence that the martyrs of the 1st century could have saved themselves by recanting. "Sacrifice to the gods or die" was a choice which was only offered later.

If the gospels are not true, why were they written? What possible reason could the authors have had for lying?

Let's forget for a moment about naturalistic explanations (that they wrote down second- and third-hand tales, pious embellishment, the general credulity of the 1st century etc.):

How about a supernatural change of their memories by Loki ?

If you allow supernatural explanations of the Biblical stories (i.e. the explanation that Jesus was actually resurrected), then you must allow this explanation as well.

IOW, that people don't generally die for a lie is an observed regularity. But it is a regularity, too, that dead people stay dead - and that regularity is much better confirmed. So why do you base your argument on the less well confirmed regularity, while ignoring the other one ?

[Mark Little]

To start check out Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr). Check out Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr) while you are there for a dose of pragmatism from somebody more knowldgeable than you and I put together.

While you are trying to figure out while people willingly die - even today - rather than make a simple statement that Jesus Christ was not the son of God try this.You seemed to have overlooked the fact that there are other religions that claim punishment for non-believers in their religion.

How about you explain why your continue to believe in your god when the other gods will punish you for not believing in them. I'm suprised that anyone who sits down and thinks about Pascal's Wager can't see its fatal flaws.

If the gospels are not true, why were they written? What possible reason could the authors have had for lying?Why were all the other religious text written if they weren't true? Clearly this is another problem you have. Like Pascal's Wager, how do you apply this logic to the reality of the many religions of the world?

I suggest that you don't hang your hat on the peg of Pascal's Wager, it isn't fixed to reality, let alone the wall.

[Mark Little]

Good points, Mark.

However, the question was to provide a logical reason for why I believe as I do, not to prove what I believe. I agree that I have not presented a complete argument, but they were sufficient to answer the question at hand.I hope Pascal's Wager wasn't one of them.

When Nanimose returns with his criteria I will attempt a more robust argument.
Namimose' proof of the nonexistence of God will also play a part in my argument. Perhaps you and HRG_new can help him out here.

1) What do I need to demonstrate to prove the existence of God to you?Well, two hands appearing in the sky, pulling it apart and God poking his head through and saying "Hello Mark" would be pretty convincing to me.:wink:

On a more serious note, you would first have to prove the existance of the supernatural to me. Then you would have to demonstrate that your god was "the only god", otherwise it wouldn't be "your God", would it?

I have yet to see any philosophical argument for (any) God that can be demonstrated to be connected to our reality. I have seen plenty of internally consistent arguments, but, alas, nothing that anchored them to our reality.

Indeed many of then couldn't even realise that the "proof" didn't actually deal with their god, it would have fitted any god - a point that the proponents often seemed incapable of understanding.

If you can prove that a philosophical argument for any kind of god can pin point the "ultimate god", I would be a bit impressed. That is, show why an Uber God couldn't have created a lesser being that only thinks it is "god" because knowledge of its creation is denied to it. I would think that proof would be a requirement for the Chistian God to be real, wouldn't you?

I have seen people who believe in mutually exclusive religions and I'm convincd they believe. However they believe equally fervently in mutually exclusive things.

All claim their gods (1) do miracles; (2) answer their prayers; and (3) everyone else is wrong/deluded/without all the facts, even if they don't know it. Interestingly they can see everyone else's delusion but resfuse to concede they may be one of the deluded like all those others they claim are deluded.

I think that rules out any "I saw a miracle", "God spoke to me", "It changed my life" arguments because all religions make the same claims.

In all honestly, I think you would have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to get the argument that would convinve me and I can't even suggest what it would be.

2) Please provide a scientific or philosophical proof for the nonexistence of God.And would that need to include the same for the Tooth Fairy, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Narf and so on? Are you suggesting that you and I believe in such things until we see a a scientific or philosophical proof for their nonexistence? That seems rather odd to me. I tend to believe when I see proof of such things, not believe until I can prove they don't exist. It makes for a much less complcated life as I don't have to worry about offending every conceivable supernatural being that I don't know exists or what its sensitivities are.
When you three can agree on those two criteria we will be ready to proceed.I was only pointing out that your use of Pascal's Wager did not do your argument any favours. Why the others believe what they believe up is up to them and for them to argue. I see no need why I should or would agree with their criteria, sorry.

[Pilgrim]

This is a non-theist only area. If you are a theist please do not post in this thread.

[Abelard]

GADZOOKS! I have been accosted by the thread police! Somebody get the videocamera! Can't we all just get along??.....

This are is for non-theists only. Please do not post here if you are a theist.