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eschaton
March 20th 2006, 04:59 PM
It has long been acknowledged that those events before the flood foreshadow the events before the end of the world. Disorder in Creation was caused by the evil acts of angels and men. The Revelation study at the Knox Theological page shows the relationship.

http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/Part7.html

Irenaeus, one of the early church fathers, shows the relationship in Against the Heresies:

For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end.
Book V. Chapter XXIX.2




1. The Revelation may represent several things, but one thing it surely describes is the end of the world. Whether this represents the end of Rome, the end of a dispensation or the the literal end of the world we may not agree on, but it does use allusions to similar catastrophes in the Old Testament. I would like to look at Revelation in light of the flood in the Old Testament in order to gain a better understanding of Revelation.

I find what sounds like world ending language in several places in Revelation, chapters six, eleven, fourteen, sixteen, nineteen, and twenty. Perhaps the fact that the world seems to end over and over is one thing that makes Revelation so confusing.

2. The first end of the world was by flood (2Pe3:6, Ge 7:10-2). God sent the flood because of great evil in the world. This was apparently related to the rebellion of the Sons of God (Gen 6:2-4). The Sons of God took the daughters of men for wives, and the offspring were the nephilim or giants.

3. There appears to have been a second outbreak of this evil, and perhaps this is what the scripture means when it says "and also after that," (Gen 6:4). Israel's spies reported that there were giants in the land (Num 13:33,22 De 1:28 2:10 3:11 9:2 1Sa 17:4-7 2Sa 21:20-22 1Ch 11:23 ) The Israelites were ordered to totally wipe out the evil inhabitants of the land (Deu 20:16- 7, 7:1-4,16 Nu 21:2,3,35 33:52 Jos 6:17-21 9:24,27 10:28,40 Jos 11:11,12,14). So the giants were once again designated to be destroyed from the earth. This time by the sword of the Israelites.

4. While the giants aren't mentioned in the New Testament, perhaps there is a correlation in the symbolism Jesus used to describe some of His enemies. He referred to them as vipers (Mat 3:7,12:34,23:33, Luke 3:7), and said that their father was the Devil (John 8:44). He also described Judas as a devil (John 6:70, 13:2,27 Luke 22:3), and the son of perdition (John 17:11). He once even addressed Peter as Satan, and also told him that Satan desired him (Luke 22:31, Mat 4:10, Mark 8:33).

Jesus and His disciples cast devils out of the possessed. In one instance the devils asked if Jesus had come to toment them before the time. This is reminiscent of the punishment promised to the angels that rebelled (2Pe 2:4 Jude 1:6).

5. Jesus declared that before the end of the world would be like the days of Noah (Mat 24:37, Luke 17:26), and went on to describe the suddeness with which judgment came. As noted before, in the time of Noah the earth was filled with evil because of the rebellion of angels (1 Pet 3:19,20 Ge 6:3,5,13).

Satan himself appears to be cast to earth before his final judgment. In Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 Satan's fall is apparently described in parables. Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning after His disciples informed Him of their ability to cast out devils (Luke 10:18).

6. In Revelation we see Satan thrown out of heaven (12:9) where there was no place left for the dragon and his angels. He is later sent to final judgment after a temporary binding (20:10). When Satan is thrown into the lake of fire he is reunited with a couple of his associates, the beast and the false prophet.

What is the relationship of these two beasts (therion) to the earlier beasts in Revelation (zoon)? As earlier noted, before the first end of the world great evil was caused by rebellious angels. The dragon and his cohorts are also responsible for evil, deceiving and causing men to worship them. So Satan and his angels rebel and are removed from heaven (12:7,8). Once on the earth, Satan and his beastly pals cause great evil. Christ wages war againt them, the earth is destroyed, and wicked ones are sentenced to the lake of fire. The final great deception causes the end of the old world (20:11).

In Noah's day angels left their first estate, caused evil in the world, and the earth was destroyed by flood. So there appears to be a similarity between Satan, his angels, the beast, and the false prophet to rebellious angels and perhaps the giants.

7. So how does this help me to understand Revelation? I think the key is to see how the New Testament writers interpreted the scriptures. Paul said these OT stories were written for the benefit of believers (1Cor 10:11 Rom 15:4). He even used the word allegory in Galatians four. He spoke of mountains, women and cities to describe the old and new covenants. Mountains, a woman, and a city are also symbols in Revelation seventeen. Paul believed the symbols were used allegorically to describe theological ideas.

Jude quotes from I Enoch, and uses its symbols to represent false teachers. First Enoch also speaks of seven mountains and seven stars, very similar to what is found in Revelation.

Irenaeus confirms this:

And therefore did the Lord term those whom He knew to be the offspring of men "a generation of vipers; "644 because after the manner of these animals they go about in subtilty, and injure others. For He said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."645 Speaking of Herod, too, He says, "Go ye and tell that fox,"646 aiming at his wicked cunning and deceit. Wherefore the prophet David says, "Man, being placed in honour, is made like unto cattle."647 And again Jeremiah says, "They are become like horses, furious about females; each one neighed after his neighbour's wife."648 And Isaiah, when preaching in Judea, and reasoning with Israel, termed them "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrah; "649 intimating that they were like the Sodomites in wickedness, and that the same description of sins was rife among them, calling them by the same name, because of the similarity of their conduct. And inasmuch as they were not by nature so created by God, but had power also to act rightly, the same person said to them, giving them good counsel, "Wash ye, make you clean; take away iniquity from your souls before mine eyes; cease from your iniquities."650 Thus, no doubt, since they had transgressed and sinned in the same manner, so did they receive the same reproof as did the Sodomites. But when they should be converted and come to repentance, and cease from evil, they should have power to become the sons of God, and to receive the inheritance of immortality which is given by Him. For this reason, therefore, He has termed those "angels of the devil," and "children of the wicked one,"651 who give heed to the devil, and do his works. But these are, at the same time, all created by the one and the same God. When, however, they believe and are subject to God, and go on and keep His doctrine, they are the sons of God; but when they have apostatized and fallen into transgression, they are ascribed to their chief, the devil-to him who first became the cause of apostasy to himself, and afterwards to others.
Book IV. Chapter XLI.3


In 2nd Peter the angels that sinned are compared to false prophets who bring in damnable heresies. Deception also plays a key role in Revelation (Rev 2:20, 12:9 13:14 18:23 19:20 20:3,8,10)

So the whole point in all of this is that the puzzling symbols we see in Revelation that are often drawn from the OT, were seen by NT writers as represenative of theological ideas, such as the difference between law and grace (Gal 4). The evil that led to the end of the world in the OT represented heresies and false prophecies to the NT writers. In Revelation we have Satanic beasts instead of rebellious angels and giants. Both represent false heretical teachings that deceive, and lead to the destruction of the world.

This view of the Revelation symbols is in contrast to the conventional view that these same symbols represent political powers and persecution. Paul said the battle was against rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness, not flesh and blood (Eph 6:12).

I see a chiastic outline of biblical time as follows:

A. Genesis - The Eternal God
B. Genesis - Rebellion of angels and the flood
C. Israelite invasion, and establishment of the nation
X. Israel is disobedient and loses the kingdom
C'. Ministry of Jesus, and establishment of the church
B'. Revelation - Rebellion and end of the world
A'. Revelation - God's eternal judgment


Hollywood has picked up on these eschatological themes in a couple of recent movies that I reccomend.

In the 2001 movie Frailty, Dad Meiks believes the end of the world is coming, and demons are loose in the world. These demons look just like normal people, but go around commiting horrendous acts. Meiks believes God has chosen him and his sons to destroy the demons.

Doom is the video game based movie that was released in 2005. In the movie a "transporter" is discovered on earth that transports people to Mars. It is very old and nobody knows who built it. This transporter is called "The Ark." The implication is obvious. In an archeological dig on Mars the remains of genetically advance humans are found. They are assumed to be the builders of The Ark. Discoveries lead to genetic experiments by scientists on Mars, but what is discovered is that some people are genetically predisposed to become monsters after these treatments, while others, the good ones, become super human. Part of the human genome determines the "soul" of a person. Does any of this sound familiar?

Dr. Jack Bauer
March 22nd 2006, 09:34 PM
It has long been acknowledged that those events before the flood foreshadow the events before the end of the world.THis is not true. The Church has never held this view.
Irenaeus, one of the early church fathers, shows the relationship in Against the Heresies:

For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end.
Book V. Chapter XXIX.2
See? Irenaeus never said that the events preceding the flood would precede the return of Christ. He says that AntiChrist sums up every error of devised idols since the time of the flood, and he says that the wrath of the wicked will rise up against the wicked towrds the time of the end.

How desperate you have become to peddle your novelty!
5. Jesus declared that before the end of the world would be like the days of Noah (Mat 24:37, Luke 17:26), and went on to describe the suddeness with which judgment came. As noted before, in the time of Noah the earth was filled with evil because of the rebellion of angels (1 Pet 3:19,20 Ge 6:3,5,13).Tut tut, how naughty of you. Jesus said that the days of the coming of the Son of Man would be like the days of Noah BECAUSE they were eating and drinking, not expecting anything. That's the similarity right there. They didn;t speak english either. Does that mean nobodsy speaks english on earth prior to the coming of the Son of Man? Not according to you.

The Bible says that the people before the flood were destroyed because of their wickedness. It doesn't say they were destroyed because of angels. Those citations you listed from genesis don't even mention angels. And even if they did, Jesus didn't say that this would happen again prior to His coming - and even you admit that this won't happen. The similarity is what Jesus said it was - not what eschaton thinks it might be.


You are playing fun games with no foundation in Scripture. Not a shred of evidence at all.

eschaton
March 27th 2006, 05:17 PM
THis is not true. The Church has never held this view.
See? Irenaeus never said that the events preceding the flood would precede the return of Christ. He says that AntiChrist sums up every error of devised idols since the time of the flood, and he says that the wrath of the wicked will rise up against the wicked towrds the time of the end.

.


...For as it was in the days of Noe, they did eat and drink, they bought and sold, they married and were given in marriage, and they knew not, until Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all; as also it was in the days of Lot, they did eat and drink, they bought and sold, they planted and builded, until the time that Lot went out of Sodom; it rained fire from heaven, and destroyed them all: so shall it also be at the coming of the Son of man."567 "Watch ye therefore, for ye know not in what day your Lord shall come."568 [In these passages]He declares one and the same Lord, who in the times of Noah brought the deluge because of mews disobedience, and who also in the days of Lot rained fire from heaven because of the multitude of sinners among the Sodomites, and who, on account of this same disobedience and similar sins, will bring on the day of judgment at the end of time (in novissimo); on which day He declares that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for that city and house which shall not receive the word of His apostles. "And thou, Capernaum," He said, "is it that thou shalt be exalted to heaven?569 ...
Chapter XXXVI.3

eschaton
March 27th 2006, 05:28 PM
That's book IV, Against the Heresies.

Dr. Jack Bauer
March 27th 2006, 05:31 PM
Exactly as I claimed. He does NOT say that the events leading up to the flood - in particular the ones you have identified (especially in your thread about signs of the end) - would be reproduced prior to the end. He only says that the wrath at the end will be a punishment for similar sins.

Are you presenting a new claim that it was the particular sins prior to the flood that were signs that the flood was about to happen? If so, what new texts will you appeal to?

eschaton
March 27th 2006, 05:38 PM
You're referring back to the other thread. I didn't say population explosion was a sin. What does the word similar mean to you?

2. Decrease in morality
3. Intercourse with angels
4. Violence on the earth

2. Is there a decrease in morality today?
3. ... but I think this ties into the spiritual realm and the rejection of traditional beliefs. It's a matter of the rejection of God's authority.
4. This is an easy one.

eschaton
March 27th 2006, 05:41 PM
Isn't rejection of God's authority disobedience? What are you thinking?

eschaton
March 27th 2006, 06:59 PM
THis is not true. The Church has never held this view.
See? Irenaeus never said that the events preceding the flood would precede the return of Christ. He says that AntiChrist sums up every error of devised idols since the time of the flood, and he says that the wrath of the wicked will rise up against the wicked towrds the time of the end.

.

BTW, Irenaeus also talked about the wrath of the wicked against the righteous, as in antichrist against the church.