Afghan Christian on Trial

[Eleazar]

This bit of news on the BBC got my attention:
Afghan on trial for Christianity
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4823874.stm

I found it interesting that the judge said "we will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance" but yet they are considering killing the man. :frown:

[jason]

Didn't you know that is what being tolerant is all about.

it is the same in the PC west as well. Although a little less extreme.

Jason

[Jin-Roh]

This best belongs in Islam, not in the Amphitheater

[Krusader]

This bit of news on the BBC got my attention:
Afghan on trial for Christianity
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4823874.stm

I found it interesting that the judge said "we will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance" but yet they are considering killing the man. :frown:

I saw a similar article on Jihadwatch. Unfortunately, strict observance of Muslim law demands the death penalty for those who give up Islam. This is also a problem in such countries as Nigeria and other contries where radical Islam dominates in particular areas.

[Soundsurfr]

I saw a similar article on Jihadwatch. Unfortunately, strict observance of Muslim law demands the death penalty for those who give up Islam. This is also a problem in such countries as Nigeria and other contries where radical Islam dominates in particular areas.

It was not too long ago that Christianity demanded the same.

[Krusader]

It was not too long ago that Christianity demanded the same.

It was not "too" long ago? What Christians are you speaking of? Certainly you are talking about ancient history here - and that was very long ago.

Anyway, for those interested, here is a link to the news article on Jihadwatch.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Let's not bring up ancient history - because both Muslims and Christians can hide their heads in shame at things done in the name of their respective religions. Let's look at today and what can be done about it.

[Soundsurfr]

It was not "too" long ago? What Christians are you speaking of? Certainly you are talking about ancient history here - and that was very long ago.

So we'd all like to think. This country is only 300 years old, and it was founded by people who were running from religious persecution by Christians.

Anyway, for those interested, here is a link to the news article on Jihadwatch.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Let's not bring up ancient history - because both Muslims and Christians can hide their heads in shame at things done in the name of their respective religions. Let's look at today and what can be done about it.

There's a saying about history and those who are doomed to repeat it.

I don't disagree with your last sentence, but I think that while we are passing judgement against these people, it needs to be pointed out that religion is as religion does, and the Muslim sentiment that heresy and apostasy are capital offenses is nothing unique to Islam.

[Krusader]

So we'd all like to think. This country is only 300 years old, and it was founded by people who were running from religious persecution by Christians.



There's a saying about history and those who are doomed to repeat it.

I don't disagree with your last sentence, but I think that while we are passing judgement against these people, it needs to be pointed out that religion is as religion does, and the Muslim sentiment that heresy and apostasy are capital offenses is nothing unique to Islam.

Other than possibly, Hinduism, would you please let me know of another religion (other than Islam) that believes apostasy is to be punished by the death penalty TODAY!

Also, let me point out that things that have been done in the Name of Christianity, often have nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity. For instance, could you please provide a reference in the NT stating that those who leave the Church are to be executed. Don't bother looking, because it's not there.

However, this IS the teaching of Islam.

Read the following and get educated if you can stop surfing long enough:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm

[Soundsurfr]

Other than possibly, Hinduism, would you please let me know of another religion (other than Islam) that believes apostasy is to be punished by the death penalty TODAY!

Let's see, we've got Hinduism, Christianity and Islam who have at various times believed apostasy to be punishable by death. If we research, I'm sure we can add many others. The fact that Christianity, for the most part, has changed its mind on this issue is notable. Maybe the Muslims will do the same, eventually.

Also, let me point out that things that have been done in the Name of Christianity, often have nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity.

Which is exactly what many Muslims will say in defense of their religion in this case. It is an appeal not to judge a religion through the actions of some of its followers. Should we proceed along those lines?

For instance, could you please provide a reference in the NT stating that those who leave the Church are to be executed. Don't bother looking, because it's not there.

Interesting that I have to I restrict my references the NT. You mean I shoudn't quote-mine the bible the way your site suggested below quote-mines the Q'ran to make its point? Regardless of what the Bible says or doesn't say, non-Christians will judge Christianity through the actions of its followers - now and throughout history - in much the same way we non-Muslims judge Islam.

We can even restrict our assessment of the Christian religion in this sense to include only the behaviors of its principal leaders. Would that be fair? Like John Calvin, who called for the execution of Michael Servitus on the basis of heresy. Or Martin Luther - we all know how he suggested we deal with Jewish peasants. Or some of the more nefarious Popes - we know who they are.

My point is, be careful about getting all sanctimonious on those you are dealing with. They have plenty to shoot back with.

However, this IS the teaching of Islam.

Read the following and get educated if you can stop surfing long enough:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm

It's interesting that you would send me to a Christian site that quote-mines the Q'ran to become "educated" about Islam. When an Islamist criticizes Christianity, will you suggest an Islamic site to be educated about the Bible?

[Christian2]

It was not too long ago that Christianity demanded the same.

I beg to differ with you. Let me correct your statement above:

It was not too long ago that some Christians demanded the same.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam can justify what they do by the Qur'an and the behavior of their prophet while Christians cannot justify this type of behavior by the New Testment or by the example of Jesus Christ.

See the difference?

[spiritmech]

Lord, have mercy. :pray:

[Christian2]

Let's see, we've got Hinduism, Christianity and Islam who have at various times believed apostasy to be punishable by death. If we research, I'm sure we can add many others. The fact that Christianity, for the most part, has changed its mind on this issue is notable. Maybe the Muslims will do the same, eventually.



Which is exactly what many Muslims will say in defense of their religion in this case. It is an appeal not to judge a religion through the actions of some of its followers. Should we proceed along those lines?



Interesting that I have to I restrict my references the NT. You mean I shoudn't quote-mine the bible the way your site suggested below quote-mines the Q'ran to make its point? Regardless of what the Bible says or doesn't say, non-Christians will judge Christianity through the actions of its followers - now and throughout history - in much the same way we non-Muslims judge Islam.

We can even restrict our assessment of the Christian religion in this sense to include only the behaviors of its principal leaders. Would that be fair? Like John Calvin, who called for the execution of Michael Servitus on the basis of heresy. Or Martin Luther - we all know how he suggested we deal with Jewish peasants. Or some of the more nefarious Popes - we know who they are.

My point is, be careful about getting all sanctimonious on those you are dealing with. They have plenty to shoot back with.



It's interesting that you would send me to a Christian site that quote-mines the Q'ran to become "educated" about Islam. When an Islamist criticizes Christianity, will you suggest an Islamic site to be educated about the Bible?

LOL. FaithFreedom is anything but a Christian site. It's owner is an ex-Muslim now atheist. This site is hard on Christianity too.

[Christian2]

Christians can make a difference in this case as they did in the case of the Muslim woman who was sentenced to be stoned to death in Nigeria.

Write to:

http://www.embassyofafghanistan.org/embassy/home.nsf/level2/contact?OpenDocument

and complain.

It is time that the Muslim world got out of the 7th century.

[Soundsurfr]

LOL. FaithFreedom is anything but a Christian site. It's owner is an ex-Muslim now atheist. This site is hard on Christianity too.

Sorry for that mistake, and thanks for pointing it out. My comments still stand, however.

[Christian2]

Sorry for that mistake, and thanks for pointing it out. My comments still stand, however.

You are welcome. Did you miss my post #10?

[Soundsurfr]

You are welcome. Did you miss my post #10?

No, it's just that I see Christians using the New Testament to justify what I consider to be violent or harmful practices all the time. It's probably a discussion for a different thread.

I think your plea to contact the Afghan embassy is more important to focus on.

[Krusader]

Let's see, we've got Hinduism, Christianity and Islam who have at various times believed apostasy to be punishable by death. If we research, I'm sure we can add many others. The fact that Christianity, for the most part, has changed its mind on this issue is notable. Maybe the Muslims will do the same, eventually.



Which is exactly what many Muslims will say in defense of their religion in this case. It is an appeal not to judge a religion through the actions of some of its followers. Should we proceed along those lines?



Interesting that I have to I restrict my references the NT. You mean I shoudn't quote-mine the bible the way your site suggested below quote-mines the Q'ran to make its point? Regardless of what the Bible says or doesn't say, non-Christians will judge Christianity through the actions of its followers - now and throughout history - in much the same way we non-Muslims judge Islam.

We can even restrict our assessment of the Christian religion in this sense to include only the behaviors of its principal leaders. Would that be fair? Like John Calvin, who called for the execution of Michael Servitus on the basis of heresy. Or Martin Luther - we all know how he suggested we deal with Jewish peasants. Or some of the more nefarious Popes - we know who they are.

My point is, be careful about getting all sanctimonious on those you are dealing with. They have plenty to shoot back with.



It's interesting that you would send me to a Christian site that quote-mines the Q'ran to become "educated" about Islam. When an Islamist criticizes Christianity, will you suggest an Islamic site to be educated about the Bible?

Are you suggesting that the quotes are incorrect? The site is run by an ex-Muslim. Not a Christian. In any case, you need to read the New Testament and learn about Jesus Christ. He never taught his followers to kill - in fact, He said, "those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword." Consider Jesus.

[salvationfound]

My point is, be careful about getting all sanctimonious on those you are dealing with. They have plenty to shoot back with.


So can theists with atheists. Heck the persecution going on against
Christians in communist China for instance. So by your logic no one can say
anything against anyone.

(And no I'm not saying that all atheists are communists)

[Sparko]

Since this thread started in another area and was moved to the Islam area, I am allowing SoundSurfr to participate here even though it is a Theist only area. Other nontheists are not allowed to post here. and guys, please try to keep it on the topic of ISLAM and not about Christianity except as a peripheral topic and it won't be allowed to degenerate into a theist/nontheist debate. Thanks!

[Soundsurfr]

So can theists with atheists. Heck the persecution going on against
Christians in communist China for instance. So by your logic no one can say
anything against anyone.

No, by my logic one should criticize violence and persecution in all forms. I don't even have a problem with those who would criticize the religions or ideologies that lead to violence and persecution. I happen to believe whole-heartedly that certain facets of both Islamic and Christian religions have a tendency to lead to violence. My point is that those who criticize on the basis of ideology or religion should be prepared to have it pointed out that they may adhere to ideologies or religions founded on similar principles to the ones they are criticizing.

(And no I'm not saying that all atheists are communists)

But you are creating a false link between atheism and communism as practiced in China. Tsk. Such a system is not an outgrowth of atheism as a philosophy.

[Soundsurfr]

Are you suggesting that the quotes are incorrect?

No, but I'll be happy to quote you a bunch of stuff from the bible that is equally abhorrent. I'm sure you'll take me to task for it. As Sparko said, however it is a topic for a different thread. PM me if you're interested in taking it up elsewhere.

The site is run by an ex-Muslim. Not a Christian. In any case, you need to read the New Testament and learn about Jesus Christ.

You need to not assume that I have no familiarity wth the New Testament or Jesus Christ.

He never taught his followers to kill - in fact, He said, "those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword." Consider Jesus.

I take it you are against capital punishment and do not agree with our President's decision to invade Iraq, either. Maybe in that other thread you can explain to me why so many Christians, including the president, are on the other side of those issues, given Jesus' comments.

[Krusader]

No, but I'll be happy to quote you a bunch of stuff from the bible that is equally abhorrent. I'm sure you'll take me to task for it. As Sparko said, however it is a topic for a different thread. PM me if you're interested in taking it up elsewhere.



You need to not assume that I have no familiarity wth the New Testament or Jesus Christ.



I take it you are against capital punishment and do not agree with our President's decision to invade Iraq, either. Maybe in that other thread you can explain to me why so many Christians, including the president, are on the other side of those issues, given Jesus' comments.

I detect that you are bitter toward Christians. Perhaps justifiably so, I don't know. However, I will leave you with the advice I already gave you: consider the claims of Christ.

http://www.applesofgold.co.uk/consider_christ_jesus.htm

[Soundsurfr]

I detect that you are bitter toward Christians.

Oy. I detect that you are bitter toward Muslims. But I prefer to discuss issues rather than perceived motivations.

So, what is your stance on capital punishment? Should Christians support it or oppose it? Note: This is on topic.

Perhaps justifiably so, I don't know. However, I will leave you with the advice I already gave you: consider the claims of Christ.

I'm doing exactly that at this moment.

[Krusader]

For any persons out there on TWEB who are concerned about the fact that Abdul Rahman, an Afghan, is now facing the death penalty for his refusal to renounce Christ, here is a link to American Family and a petition that will be forwarded to the White House requesting that our government take action:

http://www.afa.net/Petitions/IssueDetail.asp?id=191

Frankly, if our government doesn't take action, we should all ask ourselves why our soldiers are dying over there - to defend what? The right of Muslims to kill Christian converts?

[Krusader]

Also, please see the following website from Afghanistan dealing with the unfortunate Mr. Rahman:

http://www.watandar.com/

[Christian2]

Also, please see the following website from Afghanistan dealing with the unfortunate Mr. Rahman:

http://www.watandar.com/

Crusader,

I posted the petition on a couple of boards and sent it to a bunch of my Christian friends.

President Bush spoke about this today on TV. He said he was talking to the Afghan officials. He's not happy.

[Krusader]

Crusader,

I posted the petition on a couple of boards and sent it to a bunch of my Christian friends.

President Bush spoke about this today on TV. He said he was talking to the Afghan officials. He's not happy.

I just think it's incredible that we could send our young men and women over to Afghanistan to defend a government that would allow this kind of thing to go on. Right now by grandson's father is over there. Bush needs to speak out, and very loudly.

[Christian2]

I just think it's incredible that we could send our young men and women over to Afghanistan to defend a government that would allow this kind of thing to go on. Right now by grandson's father is over there. Bush needs to speak out, and very loudly.

Well, this is international news now. I just heard that a Muslim organization in the US is asking that this man be released.

What verses in the Qur'an would these people use to justify what they are attempting to do? Do you know?

[Krusader]

Well, this is international news now. I just heard that a Muslim organization in the US is asking that this man be released.

What verses in the Qur'an would these people use to justify what they are attempting to do? Do you know?

I'm giving you a link to an article by "The American Thinker" dealing with the horrors of Islamic law, and providing proof that apostasy from Islam is punishable by death. It's a very well researched article:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4726

The following is from a Muslim website called light.of.life:

"Whoever falls away from faith in Islam commits -- from an Islamic perspective -- an unforgivable sin. He takes himself away from Allah, his owner -- which is theft -- and weakens the Islamic state, an action branded as revolt or insurrection. He who falls away from Islam must, according to the Sharia, be prosecuted, taken into custody by force, and called on to repent. If necessary, his return is to be "helped" along with torture. He who does not embrace Islam again has, according to the Sharia, forfeited his life and is to be put to death by the state."

and

"The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed"; this holds true both for men and women. The apostasy of a man calls for putting him to death. It is unanimously agreed upon that apostasy is a horrible crime deserving a horrible punishment. The apostasy of a woman is no less horrible. Therefore, it too deserves a corresponding punishment: death."

Pretty scary stuff - we need to keep praying for our Afghan brother in Christ who faces death for believing in Jesus. For more info on persecution of Christians in Afghanistan, see this Christian Afghan website:

http://www.shahadat.net/

[Krusader]

This is an update on the situation in Afghanistan. CNN reports that Sunni clerics in Afghanistan have warned the Karsai government that they will not tolerate Rahman being set free (the Afghani facing death for his coversion to Christianity).

One cleric called for his decapitation, and warned that the people will tear him to pieces if the government does not comply with Muslim law calling for the death of those who apostasize from the "peaceful" religion of Islam.

I urge all TWEBBERS to e-mail the White House at comments@whitehouse.gov and urge the president to intervene, militarily if necessary, to free Rahman. American blood spilled in that land demands that we not allow this man to die for his belief in Christ.

See the following story:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html

I

[Bill the Cat]

I read that earlier, Cru and it made me sick. I find it interesting that the one cleric was called "moderate" in relation to the Taliban... and we are just going to stand by and watch this man be murdered for a personal decision that affected no one else. What a bunch of barbarians...

[Cynic Sage]

I heard that Canadian Prime Minister Steven Harper is taking action and using his influence to try to get that guy of death row.

[lao tzu]

Since this thread started in another area and was moved to the Islam area, I am allowing SoundSurfr to participate here even though it is a Theist only area. Other nontheists are not allowed to post here. and guys, please try to keep it on the topic of ISLAM and not about Christianity except as a peripheral topic and it won't be allowed to degenerate into a theist/nontheist debate. Thanks! Greetings, Sparko,

I've been posting this issue with muslims on gawaher.com for a number of days, and would like permission to join this discussion here.

As ever, Jesse

[Soundsurfr]

I'm giving you a link to an article by "The American Thinker" dealing with the horrors of Islamic law, and providing proof that apostasy from Islam is punishable by death. It's a very well researched article:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4726

The following is from a Muslim website called light.of.life:

"Whoever falls away from faith in Islam commits -- from an Islamic perspective -- an unforgivable sin. He takes himself away from Allah, his owner -- which is theft -- and weakens the Islamic state, an action branded as revolt or insurrection. He who falls away from Islam must, according to the Sharia, be prosecuted, taken into custody by force, and called on to repent. If necessary, his return is to be "helped" along with torture. He who does not embrace Islam again has, according to the Sharia, forfeited his life and is to be put to death by the state."

and

"The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed"; this holds true both for men and women. The apostasy of a man calls for putting him to death. It is unanimously agreed upon that apostasy is a horrible crime deserving a horrible punishment. The apostasy of a woman is no less horrible. Therefore, it too deserves a corresponding punishment: death."

Pretty scary stuff - we need to keep praying for our Afghan brother in Christ who faces death for believing in Jesus. For more info on persecution of Christians in Afghanistan, see this Christian Afghan website:

http://www.shahadat.net/

So the question remains unanswered - what exactly are we objecting to here?

From what I can determine based on the posts I've seen, it is not the death penalty, per se. The person in question has clearly broken the law and is being sentenced in accordance with the law.

What we are objecting to then, is Afghanistan's law against apostates, yes? And according to some, we are objecting to this on the basis that Americans fought in Afghanistan against the Taliban, and as such we have a right to insist that the resulting government structures its laws in a certain way that coincides with Western values. Basically, we are saying that the country of Afghanistan does not have the right to enact Islamic Shariah law, if Shariah law is interpreted to include the punishment of apostacy. Is this correct?

I'm not asking to be facetious, I am probing the issue.

[Sparko]

Greetings, Sparko,

I've been posting this issue with muslims on gawaher.com for a number of days, and would like permission to join this discussion here.

As ever, Jesse

OK i am moving this discussion to General Theistics, so anyone can join in on the fun.

[Bill the Cat]

So the question remains unanswered - what exactly are we objecting to here?

This heinous act of barbarism against a man who did nothing more than profess abelief in Jesus Christ as a Christian. No damage to anyone else, no self-inflicted damage, nothing.

From what I can determine based on the posts I've seen, it is not the death penalty, per se. The person in question has clearly broken the law and is being sentenced in accordance with the law.

Yes, just like the Jews broke Hitler's law simply by being a Jew.


What we are objecting to then, is Afghanistan's law against apostates, yes? And according to some, we are objecting to this on the basis that Americans fought in Afghanistan against the Taliban, and as such we have a right to insist that the resulting government structures its laws in a certain way that coincides with Western values. Basically, we are saying that the country of Afghanistan does not have the right to enact Islamic Shariah law, if Shariah law is interpreted to include the punishment of apostacy. Is this correct?

I'm not asking to be facetious, I am probing the issue.

Absolutely. We have the moral duty to protest these sort of atrocities. Genocide, homicide, and religious persecution are internationally decried crimes against humanity. Its what Milosevich, Hitler, and Sadaam were all on trial for. These "men", and I balk at classifying these barbarians as men, are no better off than these tyrants.

[Soundsurfr]

Absolutely. We have the moral duty to protest these sort of atrocities. Genocide, homicide, and religious persecution are internationally decried crimes against humanity. Its what Milosevich, Hitler, and Sadaam were all on trial for. These "men", and I balk at classifying these barbarians as men, are no better off than these tyrants.

Two points, then.

First, religious persecution is the only real operative factor here. There is no genocide taking place, and the term homicide is not generally applied to situations where there is a court and a trial in accordance with an established law.

Second, this makes me wonder why we would only single out Afghanistan. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria and a host of other countries have these laws on the books and enforce them.

I am for escalating the issue. I say we object to the application of Shariah law anytime, anywhere. I think we should impose sanctions on countries that adhere to it.

Of course, there would be some serious political and economic fallout if we did that, wouldn't there? A catastrophic shortage of oil to begin with, and a cry of anti-Islamic bias on top of that.

It's hard not be hypocritical when they've got us in a sling.

[Bill the Cat]

Two points, then.

First, religious persecution is the only real operative factor here. There is no genocide taking place, and the term homicide is not generally applied to situations where there is a court and a trial in accordance with an established law.

:hrm: Isn't that the charge against Sadaam? I can't recall for sure...

Second, this makes me wonder why we would only single out Afghanistan. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria and a host of other countries have these laws on the books and enforce them.

They do have them on the books. I receive the "Voice of the Martyrs" mailer and I see it happen in more than just one instance. It is barbaric to say the least.

I am for escalating the issue. I say we object to the application of Shariah law anytime, anywhere. I think we should impose sanctions on countries that adhere to it.

Certain parts of it at least.


Of course, there would be some serious political and economic fallout if we did that, wouldn't there? A catastrophic shortage of oil to begin with, and a cry of anti-Islamic bias on top of that.

It's hard not be hypocritical when they've got us in a sling.

We need a better way out of that sling, then... agreed?

Thanks for the discussion!
Bill

[Soundsurfr]

:hrm: Isn't that the charge against Sadaam? I can't recall for sure...



They do have them on the books. I receive the "Voice of the Martyrs" mailer and I see it happen in more than just one instance. It is barbaric to say the least.



Certain parts of it at least.




We need a better way out of that sling, then... agreed?

Thanks for the discussion!
Bill

Agreed.

[Krusader]

I believe that Afghanistan is a special case, because right now American young people are stationed over there, jeapordizing their lives, to bring freedom to that country. Many in ther service are Christians - should Christian blood be spilled to protect a regime that is hostile to Christianity? Are Christian missionaries allowed into Afghanistan? No. When is the last time a Christian Church was built there? Probably not very recently.

Trying to prove that Mr. Rahman became a Christian because he is mentally ill just doesn't cut it. Frankly, I believe people are mentally ill if they associate with a religion that forces you to remain in it under penalty of death.

[lao tzu]

Greetings, folks, (and thanks Sparko),

I'm sure everyone is aware by now that the charges have been dropped against Abdul Rahman, though there's still some question about whether they'll be reinstated.

Over the past few days, I've been engaging muslims on this issue on muslim boards, and it's given me some perspective. First of all, killing apostates actually is supported by a number of hadith ... but not by the qur'an itself. There is some disagreement with the ruling in the muslim community, especially from muslim-americans and shias, but both shia and sunni clerics have issued rulings supporting the decision based on authentic hadith.

This is not merely a religious crime in their thinking, but a political crime as well, similar to treason. It is as difficult for us to get around the idea of a union between church and state as it is for the muslims to understand their separation. The caliphate was in existence for nearly 1400 years until it finally came to an end with the fall of the ottoman empire about a century ago, following the first world war. The shari'ah reflects this history, and is based on precedents from this period. Non-muslims under the caliphate were not citizens. Muslims under the caliphate who renounced their allegiance to Islam effectively were renouncing their allegiance to the caliph as well, and were treated as traitors.

I've read the fatwa and associated tafsir from clerics from both the major sects now. Some of the reasoning is just ludicrous. The worst tried to justify killing apostates by linking it to the west's prohibition of running red lights.

The opinions of individual muslims are somewhat mixed, and badly misinformed. A bangladeshi on one of the boards actually seemed to think that no government allows anyone to speak out against it. Confronted by the question ...
What country do you live in? In my country you can say bad things about the government its ok its free speech.
... he responded ...
what country do you live where u post a lie against the government in the newspaper or publicly and nothing would happen?
I don't know if that was more shocking or just sad. But he seemed entirely sincere in thinking westerners aren't allowed to speak out against the government. Folks, learning about freedom takes time and it's just not reasonable to expect a backwards country like Afghanistan to pick up the tricks overnight.

As ever, Jesse

[Soundsurfr]

I believe that Afghanistan is a special case, because right now American young people are stationed over there, jeapordizing their lives, to bring freedom to that country. Many in ther service are Christians - should Christian blood be spilled to protect a regime that is hostile to Christianity?

Only if there's oil involved. There are Christians stationed in Saudi Arabia also. Try building a church there.

Trying to prove that Mr. Rahman became a Christian because he is mentally ill just doesn't cut it. Frankly, I believe people are mentally ill if they associate with a religion that forces you to remain in it under penalty of death.

Historically speaking, that's a relatively recent point of view. 500 years ago, Christians who criticized their religion faced death as well. Were the ones who remained Christians mentally ill?

[Soundsurfr]

Greetings, folks, (and thanks Sparko),

Greetings.

I'm sure everyone is aware by now that the charges have been dropped against Abdul Rahman, though there's still some question about whether they'll be reinstated.

Nice to see that political pressure actually works at times. Don't expect that attitudes have changed, however.

Over the past few days, I've been engaging muslims on this issue on muslim boards, and it's given me some perspective. First of all, killing apostates actually is supported by a number of hadith ... but not by the qur'an itself.

I always hear that as an excuse for moderates to re-interpret distasteful Islamic traditions. The fact is, the hadiths are as much a part of Islam as the Council of Nicea is part of Roman Catholicism.

There is some disagreement with the ruling in the muslim community, especially from muslim-americans and shias, but both shia and sunni clerics have issued rulings supporting the decision based on authentic hadith.

This is not merely a religious crime in their thinking, but a political crime as well, similar to treason.

Excellent point, and here's where things get dicey.

It is as difficult for us to get around the idea of a union between church and state as it is for the muslims to understand their separation. The caliphate was in existence for nearly 1400 years until it finally came to an end with the fall of the ottoman empire about a century ago, following the first world war. The shari'ah reflects this history, and is based on precedents from this period. Non-muslims under the caliphate were not citizens. Muslims under the caliphate who renounced their allegiance to Islam effectively were renouncing their allegiance to the caliph as well, and were treated as traitors.

Exactly. Now the question becomes - do we respect the soveriegnty of these states who are enacting their own laws in accordance with their religious and political traditions, and perhaps even in accordance with the will of the people, or do we intervene on some moral basis? If so, on what moral basis do we intervene?

We would be, in effect stating that our western values of freedom and equality are more important than their religious and political beliefs.

Good post.

[Krusader]

Greetings.



Nice to see that political pressure actually works at times. Don't expect that attitudes have changed, however.



I always hear that as an excuse for moderates to re-interpret distasteful Islamic traditions. The fact is, the hadiths are as much a part of Islam as the Council of Nicea is part of Roman Catholicism.



Excellent point, and here's where things get dicey.



Exactly. Now the question becomes - do we respect the soveriegnty of these states who are enacting their own laws in accordance with their religious and political traditions, and perhaps even in accordance with the will of the people, or do we intervene on some moral basis? If so, on what moral basis do we intervene?

We would be, in effect stating that our western values of freedom and equality are more important than their religious and political beliefs.

Good post.

If these Muslim regimes expect us to support them with Christian soldiers, then they better learn to change their tune. Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I no longer want to send our young men and women to Muslim lands - because I believe their desire to see sharia rule their respective countries and institutionalized in their "constitutions" is something we should not ask our young soldiers to protect or die for. Islam is antithetical to Christian values, and always will be. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Furthermore, here's the latest MSN report out of Afghanistan proving my point:

"On Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting “Death to Christians!” marched through the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif to protest the court decision Sunday to dismiss the case. Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

“Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it,” said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. “The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion.”

[spiritmech]

If these Muslim regimes expect us to support them with Christian soldiers, then they better learn to change their tune. Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I no longer want to send our young men and women to Muslim lands - because I believe their desire to see sharia rule their respective countries and institutionalized in their "constitutions" is something we should not ask our young soldiers to protect or die for. Islam is antithetical to Christian values, and always will be. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Furthermore, here's the latest MSN report out of Afghanistan proving my point:

"On Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting “Death to Christians!” marched through the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif to protest the court decision Sunday to dismiss the case. Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

“Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it,” said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. “The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion.”
It appears that his family (which turned him in) has picked him up. His whereabouts are currently unknown. He is probably already dead, but I'm praying he's not.

sm

[Soundsurfr]

If these Muslim regimes expect us to support them with Christian soldiers, then they better learn to change their tune.

Well, that would work with Saudi Arabia, whose government does prefer that we support them with soldiers. But I don't recall being invited into Afghanistan.

Now, if they don't learn to "change their tune", what are we gonna do? Pull out? We have interests to protect, as I mentioned earlier.

Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I no longer want to send our young men and women to Muslim lands - because I believe their desire to see sharia rule their respective countries and institutionalized in their "constitutions" is something we should not ask our young soldiers to protect or die for.

There are many Middle Eastern scholars who pointed that out before we went. And many US government officials who put their hands over their ears.

Islam is antithetical to Christian values, and always will be. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

And Christianity is antithetical to Islamic values. As far as which one is the silk purse and which one is the sow's ear, depends entirely on whether you are a Christian or a Muslim.

Furthermore, here's the latest MSN report out of Afghanistan proving my point:

"On Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting “Death to Christians!” marched through the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif to protest the court decision Sunday to dismiss the case. Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

“Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it,” said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. “The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion.”

But you see, we ARE attacking their religion. Again, I'm not arguing against that, but we can't pretend that we're not saying their religion is a crock, and that we're willing to use force to put it down when we don't like what they do with it.

Consider this - suppose there was another culture in the world more powerful than ours. Suppose this culture considered the execution of criminals as barbaric, and ever time we sentenced someone to the gas chamber for murder, this big powerful regime would lean on us politically and even militarily saying "THIS IS BARBARIC AND IT MUST STOP NOW!"

How do you suppose we would react? Would we not say - "Get your big, fat, imperialistic nose out of our business?"