On spiritual gifts

[BeHereNow]

Some friends down the street from me run a cell-group ministry for their church. They are quite resolute about their faith in spiritual gifts being alive and active today, and they even have tests you can take to help (but not guarantee to) identify them.

I'd just like to get an idea of how important spiritual gifts / abilities are to people. What role do they play in the modern church, and do people actively seek to identify and employ their gifts?

Peace and Love :)

EDIT: Forgot to add a reference: 1 Cor. 12:8-11

[Warcraft3]

Hello BeHereNow:


Today @ 01:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=152252#post152252)
BeHereNow:

Some friends down the street from me run a cell-group ministry for their church. They are quite resolute about their faith in spiritual gifts being alive and active today, and they even have tests you can take to help (but not guarantee to) identify them.

I'd just like to get an idea of how important spiritual gifts / abilities are to people. What role do they play in the modern church, and do people actively seek to identify and employ their gifts?

Peace and Love :)

EDIT: Forgot to add a reference: 1 Cor. 12:8-11

How important are they? I believe they are ESSENTIAL to Christianity and should be actively sought after and practised. I have much much more to say on this topic, but it will have to wait for now. Maybe Ill dig up some of my previous discussions with freak and Sozo on this issue.............



Russ

[$cirisme]

Russ,

I very much agree with you. I took a test a while back that said I am an administrator... perfectionistic, well planned, blah blah blah. Personally I just like it for the sheer banning power.

Err, wait. I wonder if that's what they meant? :wink:

[BeHereNow]

haha! Probably not the intended meaning Cir :)

I agree with you two that the spiritual gifts are essential, not just nice and fluffy add-ons, but absolutely pertinent to everyday life. But, I've heard many Christians say they think that the spiritual gifts died with the apostles, and that they were meant to help get the church off the ground.

Any thoughts from that perspective?

In grace and love,

BHN

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

As a non-Christian, I am curious/fascinated: What do you mean by "spiritual gifts"?

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[Solly]

BeHereNow, as a cessationist, I would point out that we do not believe that all the gifts ceased; just the salvation-historical miraculous sign gifts - tongues, interpretation, gifts of healing. there are plenty of other gifts listed from teaching to administration to giving.

SMV, as with the bringing out of the Hebrews from Egypt, and the time of Elijah and Elisha, during Christ's ministry, and the early ministry of the church, there were miraculous events accompanying a new work of God, as "signs": "God at Work". Some Christian believers, notably Pentecostals (from, the Day of Pentecost in the Book of Acts) and Charismatics (from Charisma, gift), hold that these miraculous gifts have been restored to the Church (partly because they believe there is a new work of God underway as the end of the world draws nigh). For most of its history, the church has managed quite nicely without them.

[Jaltus]

I think Solly hit it on the button when he said that there are two different catagories of spiritual gifts. THere are miraculous gifts, which is what the debate is oiver. THey are also called the Sign Gifts, since they clearly demonstrate signs from God.

The other gifts are just called Spiritual Gifts and they exist for the edification of the church alone.

I myself truly believe in both sets of gifts for today, and contra what Solly said above, I believe that they have been living and active in the church throughout its entire history. There was not when they were not, if I can truly mangle a Christological saying. I think that the non-sign gifts are much more important to the church, for I believe the sign gifts are set aside for those outside of the church, with the possible exceptions of tongues and interetation of tongues. However, tongues is more likely to be abuse than to work correctly, so I tend to shy away from it.

Now tongues has two distinct occurrences. In 1, tongues means speaking in a foreign language such that you can testify to the truth of Christ to those who speak in a language you do not know but the Holy Spirit enables you to speak. The other form of tongues, the one much more debated, is speaking in languages not known to mankind, but this requires that one with the gift of interpretation is there to allow the church to know what God has allowed to be said through you. The first type is for outside the church, the second type is for inside the church.

[doulos]

They are quite resolute about their faith in spiritual gifts being alive and active today, and they even have tests you can take to help (but not guarantee to) identify them.

I'm curious. In what way do they use tongues? As a private prayer language?



I'd just like to get an idea of how important spiritual gifts / abilities are to people. What role do they play in the modern church, and do people actively seek to identify and employ their gifts?

Well I think Paul makes it clear that the gifts are super important. They are what keeps the church body going. I think they play a very important part in the modern church because we still have pastors, teachers, administrators, etc. and they cannot function successfully in the will of God if they do not have their own gift.

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I thank everyone for their informative replies!

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[Warcraft3]

Miracles and supernatural events should be a natural part of Christianity, and so they should be happening today. The fact that they are not is a reflection of the current state of believers. They arent absent because they arent needed-----they are always needed----they are absent because we Christians are not where we should be and are not seeking to get to the place where such things will happen.



Russ

[Apollos]

Miraculous spiritual gifts (msgs) had a purpose to serve in NT times. That purpose was to reveal and confirm God's revelation.

Once that purpose was served, they passed from the church just as Paul said they would in 1 Corinthians 13.

Msgs were never essential. All in NT times did not receive them.

The "msgs" of today are not like the ones seen in the NT, nor are they obtained and used the same way as they were in the NT.

[Warcraft3]

Miraculous spiritual gifts (msgs) had a purpose to serve in NT times. That purpose was to reveal and confirm God's revelation.
And they are still needed for that purpose.


Once that purpose was served, they passed from the church just as Paul said they would in 1 Corinthians 13.
And exactly WHEN was that purpose served? Exactly WHEN did the miracles cease? When was Gods revelation so "complete" that miracles were no longer a part of a Christians walk or ministry?


Msgs were never essential.
Christ certainly thought they were, as did the apostales.


All in NT times did not receive them.
That does not prove anything other than not everyone has the spiritual maturity to be used in that manner.


The "msgs" of today are not like the ones seen in the NT, nor are they obtained and used the same way as they were in the NT.

You are quite correct. What passes for "msgs" today is pitiful compared to what we read in scripture. We need to come to a place where we can once again have Gods power shown through us.


Russ

[Suede]

I do not believe spiritual gifts are for today. By gifts I mean the ones of Tongues, Healing, and Prophecy. I believe these were for the very, very young church and ended at 70 AD. Granted I don't doubt that God could in cases use perhaps healing, but as a whole these have ended. To me, they were for the "last days", which was the passing of the Old Covenant which happened fully in 70 AD.

SUEDE

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 01:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155397#post155397)
Suede:

I do not believe spiritual gifts are for today. By gifts I mean the ones of Tongues, Healing, and Prophecy. I believe these were for the very, very young church and ended at 70 AD. Granted I don't doubt that God could in cases use perhaps healing, but as a whole these have ended. To me, they were for the "last days", which was the passing of the Old Covenant which happened fully in 70 AD.

SUEDE

Why are they not for today? What has changed since the new testament? Why would we not need them now?

So you believe tounges were being practised in 70 AD but not in 71 AD.....See the problem is there has to be a specific day when these things stopped.....and I just cant imagine what had fundamentally changed from that day to the next that would cause God to stop doing the miracles He was doing.


Russ

[Suede]

Hey Steadele,


+++Why are they not for today?+++

From my view it would be more apt to say why ARE they for today? A few things we must remember, the pre 70 AD church still had a few "mysteries" left for it. I think tongues and prophecies and healings were used to either shine a light towards these mysteries, or to affirm faith that though there are mysteries, all will be well in the end. Believing in Preterism to one degree or another, I don't see there being a need for those things now. We are in the Kingdom of God, it is here in full power in my opinion. Now, only love is needed.

+++What has changed since the new testament?+++

A LOT! The Forty years between 30 and 70 AD were a truly unique point in history. It was a changing of the guard if you will. It was the cross overtaking the dross. We now are in the Kingdom of God.

+++Why would we not need them now?+++

Why would we need them now? I think Revelation has capped everything, we now are truly free.

+++So you believe tongues were being practised in 70 AD but not in 71 AD.....+++

Sort of. I think tongues may have been the first one to go.

+++See the problem is there has to be a specific day when these things stopped.....+++

Not really. They could have faded away so gradually that there's not a noted date.

+++and I just cant imagine what had fundamentally changed from that day to the next that would cause God to stop doing the miracles He was doing.+++

The Kingdom in full power could have stopped him. My take is that gifts, the big three in particular, were only for the church between 30-70 AD, as the Old System went away and the New System was established. Now they are not needed. I don't care if someone still believes they are in existance, that doesn't bother me at all. But I do my best to stay consistent in my theology and "gifts" post 70 AD doesn't fit. Granted I could be wrong, but, I could be right as well. Take care,

SUEDE

[Apollos]

Hey Russ, thanks for your cordial reply…

I had said that miraculous spiritual gifts (msgs) had a purpose to serve in NT times and that purpose was to reveal and confirm God's revelation.

You replied: “And they are still needed for that purpose.”

My answer – No, they are no longer needed for that purpose or any other purpose as I can derive from scripture. However, if you think you know of another purpose for msgs, establish that from scripture, or admit that the purpose of msgs today has changed since NT times. Why are such needed today ??
<<<*>>>

I said that once that the purpose of revealing and confirming God’s revelation was served, msgs passed from the church just as Paul said they would in 1 Corinthians 13.

You replied: “And exactly WHEN was that purpose served? Exactly WHEN did the miracles cease? When was Gods revelation so "complete" that miracles were no longer a part of a Christians walk or ministry?

My answer: Because scripture does not reveal WHEN His revelation was fully revealed and confirmed, one cannot pinpoint the time. But if you believe God’s revelation is COMPLETE and that He fully CONFIRMED it, then your question is really moot. If you believe God’s revelation is deficient, then we should study this.

Miracles ceased after revelation was complete and confirmed. Again we do not know the exact time because God does not reveal that in scripture. But God did reveal was the purpose for those miraculous events was, and Paul tells us that such would cease after complete revelation had come, therefore I know they ceased afterward, even if not exactly when.

Further, because only the Apostles had such miraculous abilities and those upon whom they had laid their hands, then after all of these had died we know for sure msgs had passed from the NT church.
<<<*>>>

Were msgs essential?? If so, then why did not everyone have them in NT times?? So just what were msgs “essential” for? Salvation? Faith? Could one be saved without having msgs?? I know the answer is yes, so define just what msgs were “essential” for?

You said – “That does not prove anything other than not everyone has the spiritual maturity to be used in that manner.”

Well, are msgs “essential” ?? The very meaning of the word “essential” indicates that this is not an if, and, or a but… It means they are a “must have” !
<<<*>>>

I said the "msgs" of today are not like the ones seen in the NT, nor are they obtained and used the same way as they were in the NT.

You replied: You are quite correct. What passes for "msgs" today is pitiful compared to what we read in scripture. We need to come to a place where we can once again have Gods power shown through us.

My answer: Thank you for this honest reply !!!

[Warcraft3]

Hello there Suede,

Okay all previous statements by me are in blue while statements by suede are bolded


Why are they not for today?


From my view it would be more apt to say why ARE they for today? A few things we must remember, the pre 70 AD church still had a few "mysteries" left for it. I think tongues and prophecies and healings were used to either shine a light towards these mysteries, or to affirm faith that though there are mysteries, all will be well in the end. Believing in Preterism to one degree or another, I don't see there being a need for those things now. We are in the Kingdom of God, it is here in full power in my opinion. Now, only love is needed.
Okay without getting into preterism here.......I think the point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to assume they are not for today. The miracles were never meant to be for those within the church primarily, they were meant for those who did not believe.....I believe Christs pointing to His miracles as confirmation for His teaching illustrates this beautifully........So while we can debate how the state of the church has changed and why, the fact is that the world has not changed.....they still need to see Gods power in action just as they did in the scripture (and to a degree so do the Christians).

What has changed since the new testament?


A LOT! The Forty years between 30 and 70 AD were a truly unique point in history. It was a changing of the guard if you will. It was the cross overtaking the dross. We now are in the Kingdom of God.
LOL I should have worded that one a bit differently........You are correct that alot has changed since the new testament so let me rephrase...............what has changed in the needs or nature of man since the new testament? We are still the same, which is why the "gifts" are still necessary.

Why would we not need them now?


Why would we need them now? I think Revelation has capped everything, we now are truly free.
If you mean that the scriptures are complete, then I agree with you. The scripture are complete, but they are not enough to change the world. They never have been. Look at this website..........we argue over those very scriptures....we debate evidence for this thing and that thing.....we make texual and logical arguments.......but all of these combined do not have the power that a miracle does. A miracle makes the unbeliever stop dead in his tracks. He can not deny the event occured and so he is at a point of decision......what to do with the miracle? This is where we step in and point him to the cross....I am not saying miracles guarantee converts, but they are very effective in focusing people on the reality of scripture and ultimately the reality of the cross.

So you believe tongues were being practised in 70 AD but not in 71 AD.....


Sort of. I think tongues may have been the first one to go.
I am interested to know why you think that....

See the problem is there has to be a specific day when these things stopped.....


Not really. They could have faded away so gradually that there's not a noted date.
Yes that is true. I was wrong about the whole "specific day" comment.

and I just cant imagine what had fundamentally changed from that day to the next that would cause God to stop doing the miracles He was doing.


The Kingdom in full power could have stopped him. My take is that gifts, the big three in particular, were only for the church between 30-70 AD, as the Old System went away and the New System was established. Now they are not needed. I don't care if someone still believes they are in existance, that doesn't bother me at all. But I do my best to stay consistent in my theology and "gifts" post 70 AD doesn't fit. Granted I could be wrong, but, I could be right as well. Take care,
I disagree with you that they are not needed. Im not trying to disagree with you to "prove you wrong" or anything.....I just really want to see God move like He did in scripture....I think the reason He doesnt is because of the state of we Christians.


Russ

[Warcraft3]

Hello Apollos,



Hey Russ, thanks for your cordial reply…
You are quite welcome apollos.


I had said that miraculous spiritual gifts (msgs) had a purpose to serve in NT times and that purpose was to reveal and confirm God's revelation.

You replied: “And they are still needed for that purpose.”

My answer – No, they are no longer needed for that purpose or any other purpose as I can derive from scripture. However, if you think you know of another purpose for msgs, establish that from scripture, or admit that the purpose of msgs today has changed since NT times. Why are such needed today ??
Yes ,they are to reveal and confirm Gods revelation in scripture. But this is still needed among those who do not already believe......the miracles are primarily for the unsaved and secondarily for the saved. The purpose I derive from scripture is salvation. Look at how affective the miracles were at getting people to take seriously the message of the cross....that is their purpose......to remove the shackles of doubt and debate from peoples minds and bring them face to face with the reality of Gods power......so that they can be brought face to face with the reality of His love.



I said that once that the purpose of revealing and confirming God’s revelation was served, msgs passed from the church just as Paul said they would in 1 Corinthians 13.

You replied: “And exactly WHEN was that purpose served? Exactly WHEN did the miracles cease? When was Gods revelation so "complete" that miracles were no longer a part of a Christians walk or ministry?

My answer: Because scripture does not reveal WHEN His revelation was fully revealed and confirmed, one cannot pinpoint the time. But if you believe God’s revelation is COMPLETE and that He fully CONFIRMED it, then your question is really moot. If you believe God’s revelation is deficient, then we should study this.
Gods revelation is not deficient, but it is not meant to be a stand alone item.......miracles are needed because people need to see them.........look at where we are right now........we are posting on a forum where people debate Gods revelation......We make arguments and look at evidence, but these just dont have the same affect as seeing a miracle........I guarantee you that an unbeliever who can debate with you all day long about the scripture would not have too much to say after seeing a mans leg grow out where none existed before. Miracles shake people down to their very core and cause them to realize that they need to make a decision.......They might not decide to follow Christ right then and there, but that miracle will haunt them for the rest of their life as a constant reminder


Miracles ceased after revelation was complete and confirmed. Again we do not know the exact time because God does not reveal that in scripture. But God did reveal was the purpose for those miraculous events was, and Paul tells us that such would cease after complete revelation had come, therefore I know they ceased afterward, even if not exactly when.
Gods revelation to unbelievers is never complete and confirmed, which is why we need miracles....to confirm the words of scripture that Christ is God.........


Further, because only the Apostles had such miraculous abilities and those upon whom they had laid their hands, then after all of these had died we know for sure msgs had passed from the NT church.
Actually I would say Pauls letters to the churches implies that these abilities were not uncommon within the church......and I do not think we can restrict it to only those people who had the apostales lay hands on them........


Were msgs essential?? If so, then why did not everyone have them in NT times?? So just what were msgs “essential” for? Salvation? Faith? Could one be saved without having msgs?? I know the answer is yes, so define just what msgs were “essential” for?
They were essential for confirming to the unbelievers that God was working through the person doing the miracles......thus giving his words authority and credibility...


You said – “That does not prove anything other than not everyone has the spiritual maturity to be used in that manner.”

Well, are msgs “essential” ?? The very meaning of the word “essential” indicates that this is not an if, and, or a but… It means they are a “must have” !
I would say yes, they are indeed essential to todays church.


I said the "msgs"of today are not like the ones seen in the NT, nor are they obtained and used the same way as they were in the NT.

You replied: You are quite correct. What passes for "msgs" today is pitiful compared to what we read in scripture. We need to come to a place where we can once again have Gods power shown through us.

My answer: Thank you for this honest reply !!!
You are very welcome. I pray for the day when we will be at a place where God will once again pour out His spirit like He did in times past......the world needs to see it so badly...........as do many Christians....


Russ

[BeHereNow]

doulos:
I'm curious. In what way do they use tongues? As a private prayer language?


You are asking about the specific cell-group that I mentioned? Well, they typically think of tongues in accordance with (I think it was) Paul's teaching that tongues should be minimized because they usually only benefit the person speaking. A whole group won't generally benefit from one person's garble-de-goop. I think it would be apt to say that the group used it as a private prayer language, although there were many times when I was in a meeting where everyone would speak in tongues. In retrospect, I see that as a sort of group trance, a communal transcendence, because after we'd pray in tongues for about half an hour, we'd feel like we were in outer space (you know, that euphoric, overwhelming feelig of faith), and then perhaps begin to prophecy for each other or teach.


Suede:
I do not believe spiritual gifts are for today. By gifts I mean the ones of Tongues, Healing, and Prophecy.
SUEDE

and


Solly:
BeHereNow, as a cessationist, I would point out that we do not believe that all the gifts ceased; just the salvation-historical miraculous sign gifts - tongues, interpretation, gifts of healing. there are plenty of other gifts listed from teaching to administration to giving.


As you pointed out Suede and Solly, there are several different kinds of gifts. Some seem quite mundane, such as gifts of teaching, others are quite extraordinary, like healing. Please don't take this as a hit on you, I don't mean it as such, but from the statements above, it seems you want to believe in the gifts that are easy to achieve without much faith. Tongues, interpretation healing and prophecy each require unquestioning faith, and are therefore quite unpopular in today's faithless church. Teaching and giving require no faith, and so people seem more comfortable with them.


Suede:
+++Why are they not for today?+++

From my view it would be more apt to say why ARE they for today? ....
Why would we need them now? I think Revelation has capped everything, we now are truly free.


I don't think the question to ask when considering spiritual gifts is "What purpose would they serve today?" That, IMO, is questioning God for giving us gifts. I think it is more pertinent to think, "Okay, the spiritual gifts are available through the Holy Spirit through faith. The Holy Spirit is still alive and active today, therefore his gifts must also be still present." God is unchanging. Why would his available "gifts" ever change? People say certain gifts were to get the church off the ground, but that's not what a gift is. A gift is a gift, meant for the benefit of the recipient, yes?

Thanks for the good conversation, lots of different persepectives here :)

BHN

[Suede]

Russ,

Thanks for writing back. BTW, I surround quotes with these +++.


+++The miracles were never meant to be for those within the church primarily, they were meant for those who did not believe.....+++

I agree. That's a great point, and one that is too often overlooked.

+++I believe Christ's pointing to His miracles as confirmation for His teaching illustrates this beautifully......+++

I agree too. But it's interesting that after His resurrection He tells Thomas that blessed are those who believe by faith. Not saying that means gifts would end, but in a way, it almost does.

+++they still need to see Gods power in action just as they did in the scripture (and to a degree so do the Christians).+++

I think the love or charity of Christians is what is needed now. Paul seemed to understand this, as did Christ when he said that all of the Law hindered on love.

+++You are correct that alot has changed since the new testament so let me rephrase...............what has changed in the needs or nature of man since the new testament? We are still the same, which is why the "gifts" are still necessary.+++

Well, we are still humans, that's correct. BUT, I think it is different now for us. I think the Kingdom has come in full power, and the least is much greater then John the Baptist. It is also the Word and words of God that will last forever, not gifts. So, if one believes that gifts are for today, they do need to understand that gifts were not meant to be permanent and will at some point go away. I just believe that point has already happened.

+++The scripture are complete, but they are not enough to change the world.+++

Well, I think they need us to be complete. Us and our love.

+++ A miracle makes the unbeliever stop dead in his tracks.+++

Depends on the unbeliever. I've met some people, athiests, that even God visiting them personally would not change their minds! LOL.

+++SUEDE-“ Sort of. I think tongues may have been the first one to go. ”

I am interested to know why you think that....+++

Well, I think Tongues Biblically is still a "known" language. The reason I say this is because we encounter Tongues in Isaiah. Isaiah told the Israelites when they heard odd tongues in their land that their ruin was at hand. This is very similar to the Day of Pentacost. When Jews came from all over the Empire at the Day of Pentacost, and God poured out his spirit on them, I don't think they were talking all jibber jabber. I think this was in fact a sign that in under 40 years, once again the Israelites would be in ruin. Also, it's very interesting that after Acts, we don't really see Tongues, not really. Now, there are the Corinthians, however because of their city being chock full of Mystery Cults, I think they had a misunderstand as to what Tongues were. Paul corrects them. But sadly their confusion, is still very much our confusion. People want to run around acting the fool and speaking in jibber jabber. To me, this is not a sign of God, and it never was.

+++I disagree with you that they are not needed. Im not trying to disagree with you to "prove you wrong" or anything.....I just really want to see God move like He did in scripture....I think the reason He doesnt is because of the state of we Christians.+++

It's all good my friend. I don't seek out ditto heads. I don't see gifts as being for today. But that's my take on the scriptures. However, I would never ever want my take to be a stumbling block for another Christian. If they believe in gifts for today, that's great. If it helps them and their faith, even better. Since it is a non essential issue, I don't see the point of being red in that face about it. Take care,

SUEDE

[Apollos]

Hey Russ –

Thanks for your reply!


But this [purpose of msgs] is still needed among those who do not already believe...
Really, this is opinion and you will not be able to substantiate this “need” from scripture. It also makes me think of John 20:31.


The purpose I derive from scripture is salvation. Okay then, which scripture(s) would this be. I will take a look. The word saves, but working miracles per se can’t.


Look at how affective the miracles were at getting people to take seriously the message of the cross...
However effective or not, it does not change the point that God chose to give man a written word – and that salvation lies in that WORD, not the “delivery system”. The WORD brings man face to face with the reality of God’s power, grace, and love. Will man ever stop “seeking a sign” ???


Gods revelation is not deficient, but it is not meant to be a stand alone item.......miracles are needed because people need to see them...
I believe the word supplies ALL that God intended for it to supply (ei. 2 Tim. 3:16-17), but not what man may DESIRE. Herein is the main problem with modern day gift seekers. They “need” more than God intended to supply, and they go looking for it! The “need” is man-made & self-induced to justify what they want. Then they go out and find it. Compare this to so many verses where a notable miracle was done, YET the miracle was not “accepted” – cf. John 12:37f, Acts 4:16f.


We make arguments and look at evidence, but these just don't have the same affect as seeing a miracle...
Russ, you are rationalizing here. You want to say that because the WORD of God does not have its intended effect on man, we therefore “need” miracles today… Why if we had miracles today, that would do the trick – man would believe. But I showed above that even miracles do NOT always “do the trick”.

This is exactly the point the Lord Himself makes in Luke 16:30-31 to the rich man in torment – Abraham here said they HAVE “Moses and the prophets”. If the rich man’s brethren would not “hear” these from the written law, then the Lord said in this passage that his brethren would not “hear” one returning from the dead (a miracle)!! So much for God’s WORD being powerful and sharper than a two-edged sword for some today, huh? Hebrews 4:12


I guarantee you that an unbeliever who can debate with you all day long about the scripture would not have too much to say after seeing a mans leg grow out where none existed before.
This is more rationalization. The word has and can do the very same thing. In fact, read Acts 24:25 and see how Felix felt about reasoning with God’s word!


Gods revelation to unbelievers is never complete and confirmed, which is why we need miracles.... Then when will it be?? I believe that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Jude 3 disagree with this premise. It is just more reasoning to “justify” having something today that God planned (and did) do away with. God’s full and confirmed revelation is there for unbelievers to receive at any time!


They were essential for confirming to the unbelievers that God was working through the person doing the miracles......thus giving his words authority and credibility...
I agree absolutely! But they were not “essential” for salvation, faith, etc. And that was my point – msgs were not essential to the Christian, they were essential for God’s purpose only – to reveal and confirm His revelation. It was the message that miracles delivered that was essential! This having been done, the purpose is served.

When anyone wants to see God’s power and the miracles He worked, all they have to do is open their Bible – it is ALL right there for them! It is only a question of whether man will be happy with that which God has provided for him.

[Apollos]

Suede -

This topic is more important that you think. It IS an essential issue.

Because of the attitude it creates towards God's word in many, and because it causes many to fulfill their own desires and lusts, modern day miracles must be denied, and scripture must be used to defend the truth that does exist about this topic.

Too many have already been lead astray from the correct path leading to salvation because they thought they had something real, when in fact, they were being deceived.

I trust you will reconsider!

[Suede]

Hey Apollos,

I do agree that this is an important issue, but not an issue that causes strife, division or becomes a stumbling block for believers. That's in error. I grow weak and weary, sick and tired of Christians crying over their differences instead of acknowledging their overwhelming similiarites. If we could find that common ground, we could be much, much stronger. If someone wants to believe in miracles, fine, go for it. As long as you understand saved by grace, justified by faith and do continue to read and study the Bible. Other then that I care little. I am very much against gifts, but again I would rather see me and my brothers as one. Christians tend to be their own problem, and THAT'S what bugs me. Like the whole Preterist/Partial Preterist thing. Each group calling each other heretics, when neither deny our Lord and Savior. Our pride and egos are a major stumbling block for us. Well, something to think about, Take care,

SUEDE

[Solly]

Steadele: Yes ,they are to reveal and confirm Gods revelation in scripture. But this is still needed among those who do not already believe......the miracles are primarily for the unsaved and secondarily for the saved. The purpose I derive from scripture is salvation. Look at how affective the miracles were at getting people to take seriously the message of the cross....that is their purpose......to remove the shackles of doubt and debate from peoples minds and bring them face to face with the reality of Gods power......so that they can be brought face to face with the reality of His love.


This is part of why I don't believe that signs & wonders & miracles are for today. They are not there to remove doubt, or to add convincing proofs, or to attract people to the Gospel and the church. Initially, they were their to adduce the new work of God in moving out of the Old covenant into the New Heb 2.3,4; and in particular the instances we have of tongues in the book of Acts are part of that extension of the Gospel to different groups previously divided.
More importantly, the idea of the necessity of the S&W preculudes the inward work of the Holy Spirit. it is his job to do these things: John 16.8ff, 6.44,45. He is the means of drawing us to God, by revealing Christ to us. Wonders are just wonders.
It really grieves me to see local churches given over to Healing or Signs and Wonder services - come and get healed, God loves you; and the response expected is based on that, not the Gospel as Paul preached it.

I also think you can't have it both ways. Jaltus says both kinds of gifts have been operative in the church (I did my historical reading when I came out of the charismatics; most of the S&W elements were heretical in doctine and practice, from Marcion to the French Prophets, to Edward Irving to John Wimber - and there is a great deal of misrepresenation today, esp about John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards), yet Steadele says the church should be moving in the gifts, but because of the way we are, we don't.
Isn't God sovereign?
Where are we taught in Scripture that the church needs to get it's act together to have the gifts: check out the backsliding, immorality, erroneous teaching, party politicking etc at Corinth - yet it is to them that Paul outlines the right use of the gifts as a corrective to over use and over reliance, and pride; he doesn't say they are not moving in them.

Finally, I don't think the miracles were so good at getting people to accept the cross. Remember the feeding of the five thousand: you seek me because of the bread, not the sign. they didn't want the cross, they wanted bread.


BeHereNow: Please don't take this as a hit on you, I don't mean it as such, but from the statements above, it seems you want to believe in the gifts that are easy to achieve without much faith. Tongues, interpretation healing and prophecy each require unquestioning faith, and are therefore quite unpopular in today's faithless church. Teaching and giving require no faith, and so people seem more comfortable with them.


No offense taken.
Firstly, I don't believe God doesn't heal today, or do other things we can only call miracles, and in response to prayer.
Secondly, I have spoken in tongues, I have interpreted. it didn't require unquestioning faith; it only required me to go along with what everybody else was doing. Tongues in the bible was spontaneous and most likely other languages; I was taught how to do it; it's just scat.
Once you have interpreted the first time, it's easy, just an emotional barrier crossed. Ditto prophecy, which I learnt in a prophecy workshop.

Now preaching, and doing it to the good of someone's soul, not just to inform and entertain, ma-a-an that takes faith, cos you are waiting on God to give the word, as i am right now for the Sunday's message (and it's Friday already, argh!). And unlike tongues, interps and prophs that come and go, what you say matters.
Giving? Read the life of Hudson Taylor and George Müller then.

slly5

[Apollos]

Suede -

I have an great appreciation for the thrust of your last post, but you cannot have unity without truth being the basis for it. Unity is certainly sometime very desirable, even commanded, but it must be upon truth.

Otherwise, all you will have is unity in diversity.

You will not have unity when one person is saying that the Bible is all we "need" from God, and another is saying we need more.

You will not have unity when one person is saying the Bible is all of God's revelation, and another says there is more to come.

You will not have unity when one person says that God's written word is authoritative, and another says that the spoken words of "prophets" and others should be given heed today.

This "disagreement" is diametrically opposed to most of what the scriptures teach about how God's revelation came to man, it's sufficiency, and its totality. That the two groups agree on some points of scripture can not over-shadow that our view of scripture is totally different in how we interpret scripture and how God works in the lives of men. One group is in ERROR - there is no middle ground.

I do not mean to be harsh, but charismatics have changed the purpose of msgs, the use of msgs, how one obtains msgs, and the nature of msgs - as they are compared to scripture. This most often leads to changes of other basic Bible teaching to make "room" for this teaching. That includes grace, salvation, and other items you just think you agree with them on.

Thankx!

[Suede]

Apollos,


+++I have an great appreciation for the thrust of your last post, but you cannot have unity without truth being the basis for it. Unity is certainly sometime very desirable, even commanded, but it must be upon truth.+++

I agree that unity is needed. That is correct. However, what needs to be unified and on what grounds or terms is that unity to be rooted in? To me, as a Christian our unity needs to be in the major issues, salvation issues for sure. Sadly humans are, well, human. We aren't perfect by a long shot. I'm a Calvinist myself, and completely scratch my head at why everyone isn't a Calvinist too! HOWEVER, being "not a Calvinist" doesn't make them less of a Christian, and I see little point in getting involved in a drag out fight about it. Similarly with gifts. I'm a staunch ceassationist and will vocalize my belief. HOWEVER, what I won't do is cause strife in the Kingdom of God. It is just not worth it. I would rather deal with salvation issues or things that ARE important.

+++Otherwise, all you will have is unity in diversity.+++

True, but unity none the less. Christians are actually united more so then many believe. It's all the nit picking that seperates us.

+++You will not have unity when one person is saying that the Bible is all we "need" from God, and another is saying we need more.+++

On that specific issue, true.

+++You will not have unity when one person says that God's written word is authoritative, and another says that the spoken words of "prophets" and others should be given heed today.+++

True as well.

+++That the two groups agree on some points of scripture can not over-shadow that our view of scripture is totally different in how we interpret scripture and how God works in the lives of men.+++

Well it can actually. We are just too egotistical and prideful.

+++One group is in ERROR - there is no middle ground.+++

I completely agree, 100%.

+++I do not mean to be harsh, but charismatics have changed the purpose of msgs, the use of msgs, how one obtains msgs, and the nature of msgs - as they are compared to scripture. This most often leads to changes of other basic Bible teaching to make "room" for this teaching. That includes grace, salvation, and other items you just think you agree with them on.+++

And I agree too. Take note of your last sentence. That should be the issue, because that IS an issue. If tongues or healing or prophecy or whatever is going to change or alter salvation issues, then yes, that's a big deal. That is now another gospel that Paul warned us against. But, we must note, that this how now moved into a salvation issue, and out of a "gifts" issue. I totally agree that Charsmatics are way off the mark. However, they represent a teeny tiny group of Christians that DO believe in gifts. The man who introduced me to Calvinism is suprisingly a NON cessasionist, he does believe in gifts. Is he a terrible person and a deplorable Christian that should be expelled from God's Kingdom? No, of course not. To me, when it comes to differences we should first gently introduce, instruct, or state our differences. Then, if no agreement can be made, we should decide if it is a true, essential issue. If it is, then tarry on, if it is not though...perhaps we should just disgree on whether the glass is half full or half empty. Take care,
SUEDE

[luv1another]

Hi I just thought I would answer the original question in my own words :smile: I havnt been through the whole post sorry.... so here is my belief on this.

I believe that spiritual Gifts should be as much a part of a bible believeing church as Christ is. I think that the corinthian verses are easy to misunderstand and if you read them in context the verses some refer to as saying the giftswill cease is refering to when the end comes. I would question those who say prophecy and tongues has ceased to tell me that knowledge has also ceased which is right there with the tongues and prophecy part. If Knowledge has ceased then how can we know the bible how can we study the bible? How can a preacher preach the things of God without Knowledge of God ? notice that he tells us 3 things will continue forever FAITH, HOPE and LOVE these things will continue in heaven we won't need the gifts in heaven but we will need these three things. if you then read further into corinthians 14 Paul tells us we should seek after love and that we should want the spiritual gifts especially prophecy.... why if the gifts were ending would he tell the church of corinth to desire prophecy.. wouldnt that be a waste of time since that gift was ending... also when were these gifts going to end? when what is perfect comes.... but Christ had already come and gone.. so hmmm if thats the answer shouldnt these gifts have ended then... if so why did paul say to desire prophecy and that he wishes the whole corinth church would speak in tongues? so has anything or anyone come to earth that is perfect since Christ? NO . therefore either Paul is misleading the corinth church or these gifts have not ceased. why do I say that because Christ was perfect yet Paul wrote this letter after Christs death so where is the perfection that has come so that we don't need these gifts any longer?
hope that wasnt too confusing.
I want to add that I believe in the gifts because I have seen them operate I have the gift of speaking in tongues as a personal prayer language(privately) I have also had prohecys spoken that have come true.
I would also add that some people abuse the gifts and some pretend to have a gift that they don't thus giving the churches that use the gifts as God intended a bad name.
I also believe that prophets will get things wrong sometimes like it says our ability to prophecy is not perfect.

anyway hope you dont mind me adding my 2 cents.

God Bless you

[Warcraft3]

First, let me just say that I will try to respond to the latest posts sometime early this week (some time tomorrow hopefully) so forgive me for not taking the time to respond right now (Im a bit too tired to do so right now), but I just want to say this before I do.......

I believe that christians are going to be in for a wake up call within the next 25 years or so.......

I believe we are going to lose ALOT of political battles and see things legalized that we consider immoral and detrimental to our society. Many Christians will fight this, but I believe we will lose on the political front in the end.

I do not think we are capable of preventing these things from happening without true revivial within the church. The world needs to SEE the truth of Christianity, not hear a good argument for it.

You can say that not EVERYONE who sees a miracle believes, and that is fine.......but MANY MORE will come to Christ than would have otherwise.

People often try and convince me of the great impact we are having on people today......but I have eyes and I can perceive the "impact" we are having.

We need miracles people, and so does the world.....that has been true since the beginning and will be true until the end.

Miracles are a natural result of revivial, and are used to further the revivial. Arguments, theology, evidence, and knowledge are things that we do need and we should have..........but at 2:00 am when you cant sleep and you are crying out to God .....wondering if He is really there at all......they do little to stop the anguish.

I am not saying miracles are the answer............but when the answer comes they will follow and will have a great impact.

They are a natural result of revivial, not a dispensation or some other catch phrase we like to throw around.

Catch phrases and theologies do not lead thousands to Christ like the events in the book of Acts did.



Russ

[Robyn Banks]

Solly:
BeHereNow, as a cessationist, I would point out that we do not believe that all the gifts ceased; just the salvation-historical miraculous sign gifts - tongues, interpretation, gifts of healing. there are plenty of other gifts listed from teaching to administration to giving.

SMV, as with the bringing out of the Hebrews from Egypt, and the time of Elijah and Elisha, during Christ's ministry, and the early ministry of the church, there were miraculous events accompanying a new work of God, as &quot;signs&quot;: &quot;God at Work&quot;.
Against this view:

1 Miracles performed in New Testament times may have had the effect of showing that scripture was authentic. But scripture itself (the New Testament) does not itself state that this was a purpose of the miracles being performed. As the bible provides no clear answer, this argument involves speculation as to the motives behind the miracles being performed

2 The argument that miracles are limited to the time of the writing of scripture is only valid if “authenticating scripture” is the only reason for the miracles. If other reasons exist and continue to exist today, miracles and miraculous gifts are not necessarily limited to New Testament times. If more reasons exist, more miracles could validly be expected today. And other reasons do exist for charismatic gifts.

a It is more accurate to say that miracles authenticated the preaching of the gospel, and therefore only indirectly authenticated the giving of new scripture. For example - both Philip and Stephen used miracles to preach the gospel, but neither wrote any words of scripture (Acts 8:6-8; Acts 6:8). Miracles provided a “sign” that the word being preached was
true. As we are still called to preach the gospel today, then following the biblical example, our preaching should be accompanied by miracles at appropriate times.
b Miracles were also used to show that the kingdom of God had come (Matt 12:28; 10:7-8).
c An obvious purpose for miracles is to help those in need. The mercy and compassion of Jesus is made evident by His healings of the sick (Matt 20:30,34; Matt 14;14). As long as sick people need healing, miraculous healings will be available to those whom God wishes to heal (James 5:14-16).
d Miracles were performed to help Christian evangelism. Epaphroditus was restored to health by God, and then went on to serve the Philippian church (Phil 2:25-30). The usefulness of this purpose of miracles continues in our evangelism, today.
e Miracles were performed in the New Testament in order to bring glory to God (John 9:3). Needless to say, this purpose still exists today

Authentication of scripture may or may not be a purpose of charismatic gifts. But if it is, it is evidently wrong to say that “the sole purpose of these charismatic gifts, as manifested in the New Testament, was to authenticate the scripture being written”. Therefore, it is wrong to say that “miraculous gifts ceased when their only purpose (to authenticate scripture) had ceased”. Other purposes still exist for miracles today, especially the purpose of the preaching of the gospel.

3 Although the first century is remarkable for the volume of Christian miracles (Acts 15:12-16), miraculous works are recorded at a high rate for the first four centuries, and (of course) are recorded in every century since then. Yet scripture ceased in the first century. So, (unless we deny the existence of every miracle performed through a Christian since the first century as being from God, or unless we deny the completion of scripture) other reasons than the authentication of scripture must exist for those miracles. Therefore, those same other reasons may exist for the miracles performed in the New Testament period. Again we can conclude that miraculous gifts were not given merely to verify scripture.

4 It has been argued that miracles, as recorded in the bible, occurred in three brief time periods:
1 the time of Moses/Joshua;
2 the time of Elijah/Elisha;
3 the time of Christ/apostles.
The purpose of each era of miracles is argued to be the introduction of new revelation of scripture from God. Therefore, the three time periods correspond to the following three main areas of scripture:
1 Pentateuch - The Law;
2 the prophets;
3 the New Testament.
As scripture is complete, and miracles only occur at the writing of scripture, no more miracles should be expected today.

Against this view:
a The three periods are not so clear-cut as made out. Presuming that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch, the miracles in Egypt and in the desert do correspond to the writing of the Law. However, the books of the prophets were written over a period of several centuries. Any miracles which occurred in that period would certainly not be viewed as a cohesive whole. Furthermore, it is unclear as to whether some of the latter prophets actually performed miracles as signs of their inspiration. There is not the necessary link between signs and scripture. And what of the poetic books? If miracles are to go hand in hand with scripture, then the poetic books should be cut out of the bible as being uninspired. The prophet / miracle stage in the argument is at best debatable. But the argument completely fails to consider the inspiration of the poetic books.
b Other purposes provide better reasoning for the existence of miracles. At the time of Moses, the establishing of Israel in the Holy Land seems to be the primary reason for God’s intervention in natural laws. Jesus’s power over nature primarily displays His deity. And as discussed above, the miracles of the early church were performed primarily to spread the gospel.
c When the argument is closely examined, we have the coincidence of the Law being written at the time God established Israel in the Holy Land. Prophets were given to Israel over a long period of her history, and sometimes were accompanied by miraculous signs. The poetic books were written in the absence of any sign-miracles. Then the coming of Jesus, the Son of God, was accompanied by miraculous events. When the New Testament came to be written there was no pattern that suggested miracles always accompanied scripture.
d What the argument overlooks, in trying to explain miracles in the early church in terms of the alleged pattern between miracles and scripture, is the fundamental difference of the Church Age to all ages before. If any pattern did exist which restricted miracles to the time when scripture was being written (and such a pattern is at best tenuous, as shown above), the change which came about when Christ’s church was established was enough to break the pattern. Beforehand the Spirit of God only rested upon certain people, at selected times. In this Church Age, the Holy Spirit can potentially be poured out on all people (Acts 2:16-21), and His power to produce miracles and bestow charismatic gifts is freely available. Therefore, miracles and charismatic gifts should be explained in a whole new light, separate from their occurrences in the Old Testament.


Conclusion:

Miraculous works indirectly served the purpose of proving that the new writings were from God. However, as shown above, this was not the sole, or even the major purpose of the miracles. The bible does not even state that miracles served this purpose at all. Therefore, the above argument that charismatic gifts ceased with the giving of scripture is quite invalid.




Solly:
For most of its history, the church has managed quite nicely without them.
In every part of the history of the church, in every age, spiritual gifts have been claimed. There is no era in which the use of spiritual gifts has been absent.

Hope that helps.

Robyn Banks

[John Reece]

Sorry, Solly :smile: .

Robyn is right on this one :thumb: .

Blessings,

John

[John Reece]

07-28-2003 @ 02:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=160712#post160712)
steadele:

First, let me just say that I will try to respond to the latest posts sometime early this week (some time tomorrow hopefully) so forgive me for not taking the time to respond right now (Im a bit too tired to do so right now), but I just want to say this before I do.......

I believe that christians are going to be in for a wake up call within the next 25 years or so.......

I believe we are going to lose ALOT of political battles and see things legalized that we consider immoral and detrimental to our society. Many Christians will fight this, but I believe we will lose on the political front in the end.

I do not think we are capable of preventing these things from happening without true revivial within the church. The world needs to SEE the truth of Christianity, not hear a good argument for it.

You can say that not EVERYONE who sees a miracle believes, and that is fine.......but MANY MORE will come to Christ than would have otherwise.

People often try and convince me of the great impact we are having on people today......but I have eyes and I can perceive the &quot;impact&quot; we are having.

We need miracles people, and so does the world.....that has been true since the beginning and will be true until the end.

Miracles are a natural result of revivial, and are used to further the revivial. Arguments, theology, evidence, and knowledge are things that we do need and we should have..........but at 2:00 am when you cant sleep and you are crying out to God .....wondering if He is really there at all......they do little to stop the anguish.

I am not saying miracles are the answer............but when the answer comes they will follow and will have a great impact.

They are a natural result of revivial, not a dispensation or some other catch phrase we like to throw around.

Catch phrases and theologies do not lead thousands to Christ like the events in the book of Acts did.

Russ

Another stellar post from Russ :thumb: .

[Robyn Banks]

John Reece:
Sorry, Solly :smile: .

Robyn is right on this one :thumb:
I knew I'd get one right sooner or later. :smile:

[John Reece]

Today @ 12:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166066#post166066)
Robyn Banks:

I knew I'd get one right sooner or later. :smile:

:smile:

:thumb:

:cheers: