The Communion of Saints

[ReinnieR]

The Nicene Creed says

"I believe in the COMMUNION OF SAINTS"

i know Catholics are not the only ones who profess this.

What's your point of view of it?

[furay]

The Nicene Creed says

"I believe in the COMMUNION OF SAINTS"

i know Catholics are not the only ones who profess this.

What's your point of view of it?
Actually the Apostle's Creed says that. It means those in the Church on earth are in communion with those in the Church in heaven. These comprise one Body of Christ.

[ReinnieR]

Actually the Apostle's Creed says that. It means those in the Church on earth are in communion with those in the Church in heaven. These comprise one Body of Christ.
yes you're right.

i'm sorry i meant the Apostles's Creed.

[spiritmech]

yes you're right.

i'm sorry i meant the Apostles's Creed.
I believe in it.
sm

[Hitch]

Actually the Apostle's Creed says that. It means those in the Church on earth are in communion with those in the Church in heaven. These comprise one Body of Christ.

PERF!


H

[furay]

PERF!


H
And those on earth can ask the intercession of those in heaven.

:poke: Lest too many agree with me... :teeth:

[ReinnieR]

And those on earth can ask the intercession of those in heaven.

:poke: Lest too many agree with me... :teeth:
i agree with you.

[furay]

i agree with you.
:highfive: Right on.

[Keumkang]

Silly question, I'm sure, but is there any other meaning to this phrase, accepted by protestants? Reason I ask is, I know of a few protestant or post-protestant churches that make use of the Creed, which don't hold to the doctrine of Communion of Saints as I understand it(intercession and all that). If not, then it's a mite bit silly to be reciting a creed they don't really buy all of.

[elysian]

Lutherans profess the Apostle's Creed, and we do believe in the communion of saints. All believers belong to the Body of Christ. Most Lutherans however do NOT believe that the communion of saints implies that we can chat with our departed relatives. Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons. In the First Commandment God tells us He is a jealous God, and that we are to worship Him alone. We are all part of the Body of Christ, but those who have gone before us have completed their work here (the Church Triumphant) while we are still struggling in this life on earth (the Church Militant.) Until we are reunited with the departed at the End of Days, we cannot communicate with those who have gone before us.

In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth. Likewise, because of that great chasm, those still here on Earth can no longer influence those who have passed on. Their work has been completed. We who remain on this earth are still works-in-progress but thankfully we are works-in-progress who have the hope and the assurance that God will indeed complete the good work He began in us.

At the moment a believer in Christ moves on we become party to the mystery the the apostle Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 which clearly states that at the End of Days, in a twinkling of an eye- a mystery to us- that we will be changed. We die and immediately (or so it will seem to us) we will be made perfect and we will be standing in the presence of God. The refining process is worked in us here on Earth, and when God moves us on we are changed and made perfect- not because of our righteousness or the "holiness level" we achieved on Earth, but for Jesus' sake. While no one really knows where the dead are from the time they die until the End of Days (this is a mystery) there is no mention in Scripture of a transitional place or of a necessity for further testing and refinement after our death.

While those who have gone before us are still a part of the Body of Christ, we cannot go to them nor can they go to us until the End of Days. It is at that time when we will truly be as one with the communion of saints and we will be able to see and communicate with them again. When we pray to or for those who are departed we run the risk of making them into idols or opening the door for demons rather than relying on our One Mediator, Jesus. Jesus did not teach us to pray to His mother or any other departed saint- He taught us to pray to God the Father, and to trust in Him alone for our salvation.

[maudman]

Lutherans profess the Apostle's Creed, and we do believe in the communion of saints. All believers belong to the Body of Christ. Most Lutherans however do NOT believe that the communion of saints implies that we can chat with our departed relatives. Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons. In the First Commandment God tells us He is a jealous God, and that we are to worship Him alone. We are all part of the Body of Christ, but those who have gone before us have completed their work here (the Church Triumphant) while we are still struggling in this life on earth (the Church Militant.) Until we are reunited with the departed at the End of Days, we cannot communicate with those who have gone before us.

In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth. Likewise, because of that great chasm, those still here on Earth can no longer influence those who have passed on. Their work has been completed. We who remain on this earth are still works-in-progress but thankfully we are works-in-progress who have the hope and the assurance that God will indeed complete the good work He began in us.

At the moment a believer in Christ moves on we become party to the mystery the the apostle Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 which clearly states that at the End of Days, in a twinkling of an eye- a mystery to us- that we will be changed. We die and immediately (or so it will seem to us) we will be made perfect and we will be standing in the presence of God. The refining process is worked in us here on Earth, and when God moves us on we are changed and made perfect- not because of our righteousness or the "holiness level" we achieved on Earth, but for Jesus' sake. While no one really knows where the dead are from the time they die until the End of Days (this is a mystery) there is no mention in Scripture of a transitional place or of a necessity for further testing and refinement after our death.

While those who have gone before us are still a part of the Body of Christ, we cannot go to them nor can they go to us until the End of Days. It is at that time when we will truly be as one with the communion of saints and we will be able to see and communicate with them again. When we pray to or for those who are departed we run the risk of making them into idols or opening the door for demons rather than relying on our One Mediator, Jesus. Jesus did not teach us to pray to His mother or any other departed saint- He taught us to pray to God the Father, and to trust in Him alone for our salvation.

Well Done. Nice post

[furay]

Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons.
Praying to the saints is not communicating with the dead precisely because they are not dead. Rather, those holy ones to whom we pay veneration are alive in Christ. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth.
Um, you do realise that this took place before the Resurrection of our Lord? Heaven had not been open to us yet. Now when a saint "dies" they pass on to be with the Lord in heaven, they are no longer floating in limbo or hades.

The heresy of Luther is vile indeed, for it seeks to cut the Body of Christ into two pieces... separating us from those who have run the race to the finish. No, we are not cut off from them, rather they cheer us on with all the Angels and the very Mother of God. Amen.

[eschaton]

Praying to the saints is not communicating with the dead precisely because they are not dead. Rather, those holy ones to whom we pay veneration are alive in Christ. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
.


But are we on the spiritual level that we should assume we can talk to them? Why can't we just pray to God? Why should we think we can talk to them? Did the apostles give us an example of talking to the departed?

[furay]

But are we on the spiritual level that we should assume we can talk to them?
Are you on a spiritual level where you can ask a friend to pray for you? St James says the prayer of a righteous man avails much. Who are more righteous than those saints in heaven with Jesus the King?

Why can't we just pray to God?
We can and we should. I'd say 2-3% of all my prayers are directed to the Theotokos, the Angels, and the saints - the other 97% are to God. I think a common misconception Protestants have is that any one who prays to saints does so primarily and chooses to neglect God. These saints can do nothing apart from God! When you honor the servants of the King, you honor the King Himself.

Did the apostles give us an example of talking to the departed?
Yes, and it has been preserved in the oral deposit of faith known as Tradition.

[eschaton]

Are you on a spiritual level where you can ask a friend to pray for you? St James says the prayer of a righteous man avails much. Who are more righteous than those saints in heaven with Jesus the King?

Well, I don't feel the need to ask others to pray for me, because I figure God will give me what I deserve, good or bad. But I'm not opposed to having others pray for me, or myself praying for others. But I'll admit I'm delving into areas that I don't really know much about because they're not usually very interesting to me. I kinda wonder why this is in the eschatology section, but it's okay with me. I guess it's a matter of personal eschatology rather than end time eschatology.

We can and we should. I'd say 2-3% of all my prayers are directed to the Theotokos, the Angels, and the saints - the other 97% are to God. I think a common misconception Protestants have is that any one who prays to saints does so primarily and chooses to neglect God. These saints can do nothing apart from God! When you honor the servants of the King, you honor the King Himself.

Prayer seems like a type of worship to me. The angels and the departed are part of creation because God created them. I know we're not supposed to worship creation. (Rom 1:25)

Yes, and it has been preserved in the oral deposit of faith known as Tradition.

Well, it's been pointed out that most Christians believe in the Apostle's creed, but not all of them interpret the communion of the saints as do Roman Catholics. Since it's not perfectly clear in the creed, I would look for NT examples primarily. It's fair to look at the ECF, but the further they get away from the first century the more I would be skeptical about what they say, but I wouldn't rule it out. I know the Roman church is big on tradition. My wife was brought up Roman Catholic.

I admit there's a lot of things in the RC church I don't agree with, but if I knew more about them maybe I would be a little more accepting. I think I understand the RC church a little better than I used to.

The role of tradition in religion is an interesting subject, since most of religion is tradition in one form or another. Look at Islam. As far as I can tell it's about 99% tradition IMO. I don't think it says anything in the Quran about Judas being crucified on the cross. Some teacher about 1000 ad said that I think, yet most all Muslims believe that as far as I know. I'm not against tradition, but in Christianity I think we should be sure it doesn't contradict the scriptures.

[furay]

I kinda wonder why this is in the eschatology section, but it's okay with me. I guess it's a matter of personal eschatology rather than end time eschatology.
In a broad sense eschatology covers heaven and hell, purgatory, Judgment, the afterlife, etc. So I'd say it's an acceptable subject for this forum.

Prayer seems like a type of worship to me. The angels and the departed are part of creation because God created them. I know we're not supposed to worship creation. (Rom 1:25)
When we pray to saints we are not worshipping them (adoration), but rather venerating them. There is a big difference between the two. If you want to know more, do some research on Latria and Dulia.

I'm not against tradition, but in Christianity I think we should be sure it doesn't contradict the scriptures.
I agree.

[azaelia]

Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons.
It should be noted that there is a difference between praying to the dead and and communicating to the spiritually dead through wizards and mediums.


In the First Commandment God tells us He is a jealous God, and that we are to worship Him alone.
Again, we should differentiate between praying for intercession and worship. Yes, worship is due to God alone, and when we pray to the saints we do not worship them, but rather are imploring their intercession. God listens to the prayers of the righteous (James 5:16 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=James+5%3A16&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jas&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5), Proverbs 15:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Proverbs+15%3A8&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=pr&NavGo=15&NavCurrentChapter=15)). Who better to ask for help than the righteous who are in heaven?

We are all part of the Body of Christ, but those who have gone before us have completed their work here (the Church Triumphant) while we are still struggling in this life on earth (the Church Militant.) Until we are reunited with the departed at the End of Days, we cannot communicate with those who have gone before us.
Dead or alive, anyone who becomes a part of the Body of Christ remains a part of the Body of Christ. Physical death does not separate us from our living brothers and sisters.

Even in the Old Testament the departed communicated with the living. Samuel appeared to Saul, who asked Samuel for his help(Samuel 28:12-15 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Samuel+28%3A12-15&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1sa&NavGo=28&NavCurrentChapter=28)). And in the New Testament, the dead appeared to many after the death of Christ (Matthew 27:50-53 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+27%3A50-53&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=17&NavCurrentChapter=17)).


In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth. Likewise, because of that great chasm, those still here on Earth can no longer influence those who have passed on. Their work has been completed. We who remain on this earth are still works-in-progress but thankfully we are works-in-progress who have the hope and the assurance that God will indeed complete the good work He began in us.
It seems you are taking that verse out of context. If you read the entire passage it can be seen that Jesus is speaking of the chasm between heaven and hell (the chasm between the rich man and Lazarus), not between the living and the dead.


At the moment a believer in Christ moves on we become party to the mystery the the apostle Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 which clearly states that at the End of Days, in a twinkling of an eye- a mystery to us- that we will be changed. We die and immediately (or so it will seem to us) we will be made perfect and we will be standing in the presence of God. The refining process is worked in us here on Earth, and when God moves us on we are changed and made perfect- not because of our righteousness or the "holiness level" we achieved on Earth, but for Jesus' sake. While no one really knows where the dead are from the time they die until the End of Days (this is a mystery) there is no mention in Scripture of a transitional place or of a necessity for further testing and refinement after our death.
I think if we're going to get into the subject of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory we may want to make it anothere discussion altogether. This seems a bit off topic to me.


While those who have gone before us are still a part of the Body of Christ, we cannot go to them nor can they go to us until the End of Days. It is at that time when we will truly be as one with the communion of saints and we will be able to see and communicate with them again. When we pray to or for those who are departed we run the risk of making them into idols or opening the door for demons rather than relying on our One Mediator, Jesus. Jesus did not teach us to pray to His mother or any other departed saint- He taught us to pray to God the Father, and to trust in Him alone for our salvation.
Again, we must differentiate between worship and intercession, as well as between communication and prayer. We are not trying to "connect" with the saints, but rather are asking for their assistance in interceding to God the Father through Jesus Christ. The saints and mary do not usurp Jesus' role as mediator, but rather act a subordinate mediators. Having the advantage of being closer to God and free of earthly impediments, they can more effectively petition to Jesus, who can in turn petition His Father for our needs. So that you may more fully understand what we believe, the Church has this to say on the matter:

"Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness... [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped." (Lumen gentium 49; cf. I Tim. 2:5. CCC 956)

To over-simplify it, we pray to the saints because they've finished the race and know the course.

[eschaton]

In a broad sense eschatology covers heaven and hell, purgatory, Judgment, the afterlife, etc. So I'd say it's an acceptable subject for this forum.


When we pray to saints we are not worshipping them (adoration), but rather venerating them. There is a big difference between the two. If you want to know more, do some research on Latria and Dulia.


I agree.

I read a web page about Latria and Dulia. I guess there's no hope for me as far as Catholocism is concerned. I suppose it all goes back to Peter being the rock the church is built on thing. I just can't see it the RC way. But it must please God that there are different churches. After all there are seven of them in Revelation.

[apologist]

I read a web page about Latria and Dulia. I guess there's no hope for me as far as Catholocism is concerned. I suppose it all goes back to Peter being the rock the church is built on thing. I just can't see it the RC way. But it must please God that there are different churches. After all there are seven of them in Revelation.
eschaton.........check out this thread:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=72473&page=3&pp=16

start with my first post on this page and continue from there. i would like to know what u think. maybe i can help clear up what seems difficult about it.

pax christi,
apologist

[elysian]

Again, we must differentiate between worship and intercession, as well as between communication and prayer. We are not trying to "connect" with the saints, but rather are asking for their assistance in interceding to God the Father through Jesus Christ. The saints and mary do not usurp Jesus' role as mediator, but rather act a subordinate mediators. Having the advantage of being closer to God and free of earthly impediments, they can more effectively petition to Jesus, who can in turn petition His Father for our needs. So that you may more fully understand what we believe, the Church has this to say on the matter:

"Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness... [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped." (Lumen gentium 49; cf. I Tim. 2:5. CCC 956)

To over-simplify it, we pray to the saints because they've finished the race and know the course.

I understand the RCC tradition regarding intercession of the saints and the arguments in support of it- I was raised Catholic. I simply don't agree with the practice and don't find definitive support for it in Scripture. Jesus did not teach us to pray to the departed, and the examples given for intercessory prayer in Scripture refer to those living here on earth praying for and with each other. I have trouble accepting traditions that aren't necessarily supported by Scripture especially when there is evidence that may in fact contradict those traditions. There is no requirement in Scripture that says: you have to pray to St. so-and-so or you have to pray to Mary. The lack of a requirement on its own does not prohibit prayer to the departed, but at the very least it renders prayer to the departed as optional- a conscience issue (see Romans 14.) For me and my conscience I see the prohibition against necromancy as enough warning not to engage in the practice of praying to the departed or asking their intercession.

I believe that the practice of prayer to/ asking intercession of the departed can be very dangerous and at the least can cause a person to take their focus off of Jesus. I also believe that when we pray to anyone other than the Three Persons of the Trinity that we can open the door to demons. For me the risk of inviting demons in overrules any possible benefit of asking departed souls to intercede for me. I believe the time for intercession for each other is while we are here on earth running the race together, not after we have come to our rest.

[eschaton]

eschaton.........check out this thread:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=72473&page=3&pp=16

start with my first post on this page and continue from there. i would like to know what u think. maybe i can help clear up what seems difficult about it.

pax christi,
apologist

I think those are some interesting arguments, but basically I don't see them proving or disproving the papacy. Maybe my Southern Baptist upbringing is just too deeply ingrained in me, but so much of Catholicism just seems too alien to me. Maybe that's just because of who I am, and maybe Catholics are just the same in reverse. But I guess God must want it that way. No? But it's good to try and resolve these things, although I wouldn't try to convince any of my Catholic relatives (by marriage) of my view. It might cause bad blood you know?

Like I've said before, I don't claim a great deal of knowledge on the subject, but it seems that there have been enough scandalous popes in the past that any claims of divine guidance should have gone by the way by now. Am I wrong about that?

On the scriptural side, since Jesus is the cornerstone it seems he could of been talking about himself when he said "upon this rock." Or he could have been referring to the unity and love between Himself and Peter or the disciples in general. I don't understand why Peter has to be the basis of Apostolic succession, or whatever it's called.

[dizzle]

Most of that is very contrary to the Early Church. Ironic.

[eschaton]

Most of that is very contrary to the Early Church. Ironic.

You mean that I'm Baptist?

[elysian]

I think those are some interesting arguments, but basically I don't see them proving or disproving the papacy. Maybe my Southern Baptist upbringing is just too deeply ingrained in me, but so much of Catholicism just seems too alien to me. Maybe that's just because of who I am, and maybe Catholics are just the same in reverse. But I guess God must want it that way. No? But it's good to try and resolve these things, although I wouldn't try to convince any of my Catholic relatives (by marriage) of my view. It might cause bad blood you know?

Like I've said before, I don't claim a great deal of knowledge on the subject, but it seems that there have been enough scandalous popes in the past that any claims of divine guidance should have gone by the way by now. Am I wrong about that?

On the scriptural side, since Jesus is the cornerstone it seems he could of been talking about himself when he said "upon this rock." Or he could have been referring to the unity and love between Himself and Peter or the disciples in general. I don't understand why Peter has to be the basis of Apostolic succession, or whatever it's called.

My Mom is Catholic, my Dad is a Regular Baptist (even more conservative than the Southerns.) Dad couldn't get beyond, "why is the preacher wearing a dress?" :lol: For this reason he is suspect of traditional Lutheran worship as well as Catholic Mass. He was brought up with the old-school Baptist "Come forth to Jeeeee-sussss and be ye saved-uh!" hellfire and brimstone sermons. He can also quote the old KJV chapter and verse. Catholicism is a very different view of Christian faith than the Baptists hold though on examination you will find far more in common than you think. I had opportunity to investigate both traditions in great depth (at one point I almost became a Southern Baptist, like my sister did) and ended up in a different tradition altogether that (to me) espouses a bit of a middle ground- the best of both worlds, so to speak.

It's good for us to seek, knock, and ask and learn about other traditions even if we don't agree with them. Some of the best Bible study courses I've ever taken have been facilitated by Baptists, for instance- even though I do not agree with or accept certain points of Baptist theology. Catholics have much to teach us about living sacrificially and the importance of spiritual disciplines and ritual- but part of truly being a part of the RCC by their own standard means that you accept their doctrines and the authority of the Church even above the authority of Scripture.

I don't think any one church has all the answers- and I don't believe anyone other than God has it 100% right. I do believe that we are more faithful to God when we do question what we are taught and when we trust the Holy Spirit to inform and teach us. Human teachers are always fallible. The apostle Paul commended the Bereans for testing his teaching against Scripture. We too should follow this example and not just accept a teaching because so-and-so - no matter who he is - said so.

[elysian]

Most of that is very contrary to the Early Church. Ironic.

What is contrary? What I said? What apologist said? Can you 'splain? :lol:

[eschaton]

What is contrary? What I said? What apologist said? Can you 'splain? :lol:

I think she was talking to me, but I'll let her explain herself.

[eschaton]

I think she was talking to me, but I'll let her explain herself.



Maybe she was talking about "mixed" marriages. I know I've gotten in trouble about mentioning that before.

[eschaton]

My Mom is Catholic, my Dad is a Regular Baptist (even more conservative than the Southerns.) Dad couldn't get beyond, "why is the preacher wearing a dress?" :lol: For this reason he is suspect of traditional Lutheran worship as well as Catholic Mass. He was brought up with the old-school Baptist "Come forth to Jeeeee-sussss and be ye saved-uh!" hellfire and brimstone sermons. He can also quote the old KJV chapter and verse. Catholicism is a very different view of Christian faith than the Baptists hold though on examination you will find far more in common than you think. I had opportunity to investigate both traditions in great depth (at one point I almost became a Southern Baptist, like my sister did) and ended up in a different tradition altogether that (to me) espouses a bit of a middle ground- the best of both worlds, so to speak.

It's good for us to seek, knock, and ask and learn about other traditions even if we don't agree with them. Some of the best Bible study courses I've ever taken have been facilitated by Baptists, for instance- even though I do not agree with or accept certain points of Baptist theology. Catholics have much to teach us about living sacrificially and the importance of spiritual disciplines and ritual- but part of truly being a part of the RCC by their own standard means that you accept their doctrines and the authority of the Church even above the authority of Scripture.

I don't think any one church has all the answers- and I don't believe anyone other than God has it 100% right. I do believe that we are more faithful to God when we do question what we are taught and when we trust the Holy Spirit to inform and teach us. Human teachers are always fallible. The apostle Paul commended the Bereans for testing his teaching against Scripture. We too should follow this example and not just accept a teaching because so-and-so - no matter who he is - said so.

I like your attitude.