Ruling with a Rod of Iron

[A Cup of No]

For postmillenialists and amillenialists, how do you interpret the passages that state that Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" during his reign?

[eschaton]

For postmillenialists and amillenialists, how do you interpret the passages that state that Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" during his reign?


I see the rod of iron, like the sword, as a symbol of the Word of God.

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Mat 27:7-10

Rev 14:19, 16:19 Rod - 2:27, 12:5, Jer 10:16,51:19 Words of mouth - Psa 64:3, Jer 23:29, Hos 6:5, Rev 1:16 - sword

Eph6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the
gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

These are spiritual symbols. The Christian should arm himself with the Word of God. The end time battles are spiritual.

[eschaton]

Here are my original notes on Revelation 19:15.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

14:19, 16:19 Rod - 2:27, 12:5, Isa 11:4, 30:14,Jer 10:16,51:19 Words of mouth - Psa 64:3, Isa 11:4, Jer 23:29, Hos 6:5, Heb 4:12, Rev 1:16 - sword

[A Cup of No]

:bump:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

:bump:
Haven't given it much thought. But am interested in what others say.

:popcorn:

[dizzle]

For postmillenialists and amillenialists, how do you interpret the passages that state that Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" during his reign?

I think it is basically stating that He will utterly vanguish and defeat His enemies.

[Tim C.]

For postmillenialists and amillenialists, how do you interpret the passages that state that Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" during his reign?

Why, we need to spiritualize it into nothingness, of course. You see, we need to treat the one area of Bible Prophecy differently than the literal interpretation we hold for the rest of Scripture. Once you realize this, we can fit prophecy to any old thing we like. The text don't mean what it says... at least as far as prophecy goes.

-Tim

[dizzle]

We love you Tim! :hug:

[Hitch]

Why, we need to spiritualize it into nothingness, of course. You see, we need to treat the one area of Bible Prophecy differently than the literal interpretation we hold for the rest of Scripture. Once you realize this, we can fit prophecy to any old thing we like. The text don't mean what it says... at least as far as prophecy goes.

-TimAnother reference to R1;1?

[A Cup of No]

Why, we need to spiritualize it into nothingness, of course. You see, we need to treat the one area of Bible Prophecy differently than the literal interpretation we hold for the rest of Scripture. Once you realize this, we can fit prophecy to any old thing we like. The text don't mean what it says... at least as far as prophecy goes.

-Tim

:ahem:

I find it intersesting that in my last thread that I requested get only preterist responses, Tim responded. I sense a pattern.

But yeah, the reason I ask is that this is a pushback I have received concerning postmillenialism (look at hitler, how the world is, how can you say Christ is ruling with a rod of iron) etc etc.

I have my own idea, but I am scared that I am not doing justice to the biblical text, so yeah.

[John Reece]

But yeah, the reason I ask is that this is a pushback I have received concerning postmillennialism (look at Hitler, how the world is, how can you say Christ is ruling with a rod of iron) etc. etc.

Well, look at Hitler: consider his end and his place in history.

Christ ruling with a rod of iron does not mean no enemies will arise or that Christians will not die at the hands of evil earthly rulers.

Quite the contrary: The way of conquering initiated and perpetuated in the reign of Christ is the way of the Cross, the way of martyrdom, which is the way Christ and Christians triumph and leave in their wake from generation to generation ever increasing manifestations of God’s grace in the history of the world.

[A Cup of No]

Well, look at Hitler: consider his end and his place in history.

Christ ruling with a rod of iron does not mean no enemies will arise or that Christians will not die at the hands of evil earthly rulers.

Quite the contrary: The way of conquering initiated and perpetuated in the reign of Christ is the way of the Cross, the way of martyrdom, which is the way Christ and Christians triumph and leave in their wake from generation to generation ever increasing manifestations of God’s grace in the history of the world.

Yes, this was my idea but I wasn't sure if I was right to say that Christ actually changed what power is, what a rod of iron would be, by his willing death and sacrifice. As in Mark 10 when he tells his disciples that they must not lord their authority over others as the gentiles do, but be willing to be the bondservants of all, Christ's power is that of self-sacrifice. I found it strange that he would change his way of ruling once he ascended to something different than how he lived his life. My bible teacher told me, though, that his changing makes sense under a dispensational paradigm, where God can change the way he works with man (I know this is loaded).

Edit: fixing grammatical issue in a sentence

[John Reece]

Yes, this was my idea but I wasn't sure if I was right to say that Christ actually changed what power is, what a rod of iron would be, by his willing death and sacrifice. As in Mark 10 when he tells his disciples that they must not lord their authority over others as the gentiles do, but be willing to be the bondservants of all, Christ's power is that of self-sacrifice. I found it strange that he would change his way of ruling once he ascended to something different than how he lived his life. My bible teacher told me, though, that his changing makes sense under a dispensational paradigm, where God can change the way he works with man (I know this is loaded).

The way of the Cross is not pacifism, else one would have to say that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT.

‘Dying’ with Christ is not limited to physical death; it’s a way of life in all relationships.

God calls people to be soldiers as well as all other professions and ministries.

There remains, as has always been the case, a place for war and warriors in God’s kingdom.

(I know this is loaded) :smile:

[ross3421]

For postmillenialists and amillenialists, how do you interpret the passages that state that Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" during his reign?

I would say that he rules them ( the ungodly) with a rod of iron for eternity (not 1000 years) ......

Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Re 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Who are the nations whom he rules with iron? If one believes in a postmillenium look at the following verse...would he smite them which will populate the earth?

Re 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Where do you get that he ruled with iron already? He WILL rule with iron in the future.. If you are refering to rev. 12:5 it states that he WAS TO rule not that he has or is ruling.

Mark.

[dizzle]

1. Are you amill or postmill? (that is who this thread was limited to)
2. Do you even understand postmill?

[ross3421]

1. Are you amill or postmill? (that is who this thread was limited to)
2. Do you even understand postmill?

1. amil..... note that I do not believe we are in the time frame of 1000 years as the catagory implies but that the 1000 years is being used as a metaphor.

2. I took postmill for premill sorry.

[dizzle]

Okay - what is it used as a metaphor for?

[ross3421]

Okay - what is it used as a metaphor for?

To denote a non measured span of time of events as one would say....."I waited a thousand days for this thing...". The verse below implies such an interpetation. Iam sure you have used this word in like fashion.......Where do you think this catch phrase originated? From the bible.

2pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Also, the term "thousand years" would signify a unspecified time frame apart from the earth as in a different relm as heaven or hell where time may not exsist.

Moreover the support for this line of thought comes by studying the events in the begining of chapter 20 whereby they are seen happening prior to the coming of Christ.

Mark.

[dizzle]

Okay - so far so good - so you don't see the thousand years as the time span that is happening now?

[ross3421]

Okay - so far so good - so you don't see the thousand years as the time span that is happening now?

correct.... nor a time span in the future either.

[dizzle]

correct.... nor a time span in the future either.

This appears to contradict your prior post:


To denote a non measured span of time of events as one would say....."....

If it is a time of events, it has to happen sometime. I am assuming you don't think it is over, so it has to be either now or later.

[ross3421]

This appears to contradict your prior post:



If it is a time of events, it has to happen sometime. I am assuming you don't think it is over, so it has to be either now or later.

The "thousand years" is a time period of non specific length. It is not an literal thousand year period. Notice this period encompasses Satan in Hell those which have been martyred and are in heaven.

Does the demension of time exsist in these realms???? I say no, thus the reason of the term 1000 years. The specific events in the first part of Rev. 20 are future as Satan is not yet bound nor has those been martyred for not accepting his Mark.

The thousand years represents not the things which occur on earth as which is bound by time, but the kingdoms not of the earth i.e heaven and hell and the events which happen therein.


Mark

[dizzle]

You say it is a non-time time period. That doesn't really make much sense. So you think the first part of the thousand years is yet future - okay. What about any other parts of it, are they future or are they present?