Made In China

[decoski]

Seems like every product I buy these days has "Made In China" stamped on it. That reality didn't really set in until I recently purchased some new K2 brand skis. They used to pride themselves in being made in the USA, but now - you guessed it - made in China. Now, I don't pretend to be an economist, but it seems to me that outsourcing jobs to China will have negative implications for the United States economy, if it hasn't already. Am I wrong here? If so, why?

[Ryokan]

Seems like every product I buy these days has "Made In China" stamped on it. That reality didn't really set in until I recently purchased some new K2 brand skis. They used to pride themselves in being made in the USA, but now - you guessed it - made in China. Now, I don't pretend to be an economist, but it seems to me that outsourcing jobs to China will have negative implications for the United States economy, if it hasn't already. Am I wrong here? If so, why?It has a whole bunch of implications. The first is the the US industrial sector has shifted away from labour intesive, low tech commodity production to more mechanized, high tech value added items. The secon is it has pushed down the real wages for American unskilled labourers, and pushed up wages for just about everyone else (in a real sense). Its helping fuel the global economy, and our economy, but also fueling US trade deficits. Overall, I think China's rise is good for the US, but we do have to be aware of adjust to the draw backs, and work with China so we both grow properly together.

[rmwilliamsjr]

just from an energy or materials viewpoint, not from an economic one.


i scrapped out a car the other day, it would have been shredded and set via rail to the west coast. loaded on a boat and taken to china as scrap steel. the prices of which here has gone up 3x with the chinese demand.
then unloaded in china, hauled to a steel plant and made into some ingot.
then shipped to a factory and made into say-clamps.
then shipped back to LA, loaded on a truck which ends up at my local harbour freight.
to which i go when my welding clamp breaks to buy another one.

does that movement of Fe molecules around the world and back really make sense? hasn't economics lost something when it tells me that this is the rational and efficient way of allocating resources?

come on guys. count the energy cost first.

[Ryokan]

just from an energy or materials viewpoint, not from an economic one. Wuzza?


i scrapped out a car the other day, it would have been shredded and set via rail to the west coast. loaded on a boat and taken to china as scrap steel. the prices of which here has gone up 3x with the chinese demand.
then unloaded in china, hauled to a steel plant and made into some ingot.
then shipped to a factory and made into say-clamps.
then shipped back to LA, loaded on a truck which ends up at my local harbour freight.
to which i go when my welding clamp breaks to buy another one.

does that movement of Fe molecules around the world and back really make sense? hasn't economics lost something when it tells me that this is the rational and efficient way of allocating resources?

come on guys. count the energy cost first.
Actually, williams, energy is factored in. Energy, like everything else, has a cost. Its just that in China, they can make say clamps cheaper than they can here. So much cheaper they can afford to pay that energy cost. You sound like a conservationist, though, so what I am assuming is that you feel that that energy would be better of conserved, because you have a different idea of our energy reserves than the market does. iow, energy should be more expensive. Which is very possible. But economist can't really conclusively say that.

[Teallaura]

Actually, if oil prices continue upward, I doubt China will be able to deal with that for long. At present it is as oil dependant, if not more, than the US. Somehow, I don't think an energy crisis would be a good thing for China, at least not now.

[Mark_S]

I'm already dealing with lead times upwards of 40 weeks on certain domestic steels. Buy foreign and quit messing with me.

[Teallaura]

I'm already dealing with lead times upwards of 40 weeks on certain domestic steels. Buy foreign and quit messing with me.

Awww, just go down to the hardware store and get your little screws already... ya big baby! :brood:





:wink:

[Mark_S]

For some reason I don't think Home Depot is on my approved source list....

[micah4]

just from an energy or materials viewpoint, not from an economic one.


i scrapped out a car the other day, it would have been shredded and set via rail to the west coast. loaded on a boat and taken to china as scrap steel. the prices of which here has gone up 3x with the chinese demand.
then unloaded in china, hauled to a steel plant and made into some ingot.
then shipped to a factory and made into say-clamps.
then shipped back to LA, loaded on a truck which ends up at my local harbour freight.
to which i go when my welding clamp breaks to buy another one.

does that movement of Fe molecules around the world and back really make sense? hasn't economics lost something when it tells me that this is the rational and efficient way of allocating resources?

come on guys. count the energy cost first.


I don't think it's a matter of not counting the energy cost (as ry said, that's factored in) as it is a matter of counting the regulation cost.

What that tells me is that because of extensive regulation, labor laws, unions, environmental laws, minimum wage laws, OSHA, ADA, etc., etc., ad naseum the cost of manufacturing here in the U.S. is so exorbitantly out of line with the market that we are doing ridiculous things like you've described.

I don't think your observation is the result as Ry suggested of you thinking you know better than the market how much energy should cost, that's a result of the government thinking it knows better than the market how much labor should cost, and how much the labor market values safety and this and that and how much consumers value the environment. The chinese government allows their industry to perform without as strict regulation because they know they're at war economically with the U.S.

Yes, an energy crunch would be disastrous for China, which is why they're presently in competition with us all around the globe to secure future oil reserves.

The problem is, because of so many years of ridiculous behavior resulting from market interference, we owe China billions and billions of dollars worth of something. So when push comes to a shove over who gets the oil, the gravy train of handing them paper dollars for all our doormats and wall clocks and home decor trinkets and all that cr$$ nobody really needed anyway (but they bought because walmart had such 'great prices') is going to end, and they're going to demand something besides paper and promises in return. Either they'll own the whole U.S. of A, or we'll go to war in order to avoid making good on our debts.

[Telleriab2]

Seems like every product I buy these days has "Made In China" stamped on it. That reality didn't really set in until I recently purchased some new K2 brand skis. They used to pride themselves in being made in the USA, but now - you guessed it - made in China.

I feel your pain, mate. I know exactly how you feel. That was my same reaction when I read that label of a Lindt's chocolate bar. The company prides itself on making fine Swiss chocolates. Now, the wrappers either say "Made in Germany" or "Made in France." Gahh!! What is this world coming to where one cannot even purchase a Swiss chocolate from a Swiss company anymore?!

:teeth:

Although, the whole situation of the Chinese taking over American labour is only part of the job. It seems that anything I purchase is not American. The Uniball pens I use are from Japan. The sneakers I wear had materials manufactured in either Bangladesh or assembled somewhere else.The TVs, DVD players, radio sets are Sony. To find a true 100% Made-in-America product is like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. If you wish to find a decent patriotic product, you would be wasting your time rummaging through the local Wal-Mart. American outsourcing is serious business. It is true that the companies manage to make their money at cheaper labour costs, but that means less jobs for America, one of the most affluent countries in the world. America, though some might care to overlook this, is a nation of wasters. If something stops working, you should just go out to get a new one. And when you get a new one, you can bet your boots that it was probably made, assembled, and shipped from elsewhere.

:help: :violin:

[Teallaura]

Is anyone else here old enough to remember when everyone was convinced that the trade deficit with Japan and all the goods we were importing from them (read cars) was sure to sink the US? (I know you aren't Ry - you were a baby - literally.) I'm beginning to think that while we should pay attention and respond appropriately, the whole thing is more tempest in a teapot than serious risk.

China's big and unquestionably growing fast - but like Japan before it, that fast growth can backfire. I'm no expert, but it seems to me a fast growing economy with as little historic capital (?) as China has to fall back on is in a much more precarious position than a stable slow growing economy like the US when it comes to rising energy costs. Not that it will necessarily fail, but I just am not so sure that China is the Goliath that everyone seems to think it is - and even Goliath had his weakness.

I'm guessing that the real test for China will be when its growth begins to slow. :shrug:

[micah4]

Is anyone else here old enough to remember when everyone was convinced that the trade deficit with Japan and all the goods we were importing from them (read cars) was sure to sink the US? (I know you aren't Ry - you were a baby - literally.) I'm beginning to think that while we should pay attention and respond appropriately, the whole thing is more tempest in a teapot than serious risk.

China's big and unquestionably growing fast - but like Japan before it, that fast growth can backfire. I'm no expert, but it seems to me a fast growing economy with as little historic capital (?) as China has to fall back on is in a much more precarious position than a stable slow growing economy like the US when it comes to rising energy costs. Not that it will necessarily fail, but I just am not so sure that China is the Goliath that everyone seems to think it is - and even Goliath had his weakness.

I'm guessing that the real test for China will be when its growth begins to slow. :shrug:

I dunno. Japan's got only 125million people or so (less I'm sure back then), and their on a tiny little island with very few resources, so they're bound to demand imports from somewhere which helps even out the trade balance all partners considered - and then Japan's military power was also severely constrained post WWII, so they weren't in any position to become a world power.

China, OTOH, has over a billion people which is an economic juggernaut by any standard, even with fits and spurts in development. Undoubtedly china will be the number one competitor for energy resources through the coming century, and there is no doubt that this is going to become a major issue probably sooner than later; we've already seen e.g., the Chinese trying to buy out UNOCAL and the uproar that caused with the U.S. senate stepping in an effort to keep the deal from going through. That's an act of aggression, to be honest, having the government to step in and use political muscle to interfere with what would otherwise be a free trade- not in a grossly overt way but it's definitely a sign of things to come. Without a doubt, it was a statement from our government to China that our government is not going to sit idly by and watch china gobble up energy resources that we want. And that was happening already yesterday. You can bet there will be a lot more headbutting between the US and china over energy. Things aren't incredibly scarce now, but when things really get scarce- well, that's when wars get started. In this world, nobody owns a thing but by the power to take it and hold onto it, and that's the historical norm. China and U.S. are heading up for a long time of conflict in the coming years as energy resources get scarce.

[semmie'ssister]

Is there anyone out there who just absolutely does not buy anything made in china?

I'm not going to mention names......but one girl (A) told me of another girl (B) who absolutely refuses to buy anything that is labeled 'Made in China'. But it doesn't stop there. She will not even use anything that has been given to her or passed on to her that has teh 'Made in China' stamped on it.

Now girl (B) is as close to me as she is to girl (A)....but girl (B) has never mentioned this to me, nor have I asked her about it. But girl (A) told me that she will not buy/used 'Made in China' products not for teh sole purpose of buying/using only USA made products, but becasue of the child labor and unfair wages being paid to the workers in China.

I thought it was aprticularly funny when she had a baby and spent all her time researching and finding the 'best' car seat for her baby. But when it was bought and given to her as a gift, she found out it was made in China, and never used it after that. Now, this is a car seat that she herself picked out and asked for.

I think she's making too big a deal out of it. Realistically, if the workers is China were gettting paid comparible to US wages, it would be chaos! The current China economy cannot handle the larger wages that US minimum wage workers have come to expect from a job. But in time, I think China will work it's way out of cheap labor, and I don't think it's wrong for companies to outsource labor to China.

But I'd be curious to know if there is anyone else out there who absolutely refuses to buy/use anything 'Made in China'. And if so, why do you not buy 'Made in China' items?

[Rubia Warren]

I don't absolutely refuse to, but I personally try to not buy products that are made in foreign countries when possible. I do this for a variety of reasons:

1. Many of the products being made outside the US have diminished in quality and longevity (note I said "many", but certainly not all), so if I know that there is a USA-made alternative that is still built to last, I will invest in that instead. It's often a better consumer decision. Many times there is no alternative, or the american alternative is also made with cheap parts/methods of production/bad design, so then my decision is altered.

2. While I realize that the Chinese and others may be on their way developmentally in their economies, I have first-hand experience in the struggle between capital owners and labor-- I know the back-and-forth routines (not that no one else knows, but that I lived it and it shaped me as I grew), and I have permanent damage in the spinal area (discs) of my neck, giving me chronic pain daily since I was 18 years old as a reminder of what many people running companies are made of and what they really care about.
A lot of companies who leave the US do to motivated by the potential to make more money..... but as they have left, they have often badmouthed the US worker, and thumbed their noses at us. As a blue collar worker, to me, it's the equivalent of a drunk beating up his wife in a rage, then screwing with her head by blaming her as the reason he flew off the handle. Or a guy cheating on his wife and then blaming her for his sneaky infidelity. It's that type of a mindscramble.
Often, they are not even leaving due to the employees themsevles and what they cost, but some have left due to high tariffs or environmental laws but the public since toward the end of the Reagan years especially seems to be conditioned in a knee-jerk response to quickly roll eyes and poo-poo workers about it (I think if I remember right, the lifesavers plant moved to Canada or something more for the reason of sugar tariffs and other things rather than employee wages/benefits--- but I could be thinking of another company so don't take that as written in stone, I'm going from memory-- it was some candymaker).
Anyways, companies are moving to please shareholders and to make the pockets of management much thicker, and people justify the working conditions of the employees by that same reasoning. It may be true. But I have a hard time as a blue collar worker, studied a small bit of America's own labor movement of the past, and a person who struggles with Christian faith, to willfully fund what I see that Americans went through in the industrial revolution, and justify it away as though I am doing someone a favor. It doesn't feel like a favor, to me. I've had it explained to me that in the long run, it is a favor. But my conscience has a hard time with it. If I am to live in the "greatest country on the planet", and live quite richly compared to many other people on the globe, though I am considered poor here, I don't wanna act like the rich do.
I see most corporations who nation-hop for maximum profit as unevolved knuckledraggers.

It was not capital owners who voluntarily made working conditions in this country better for their workers after a certain amount of time. And if I will willfully fund something (speaking as if I had some spare change *snort*), I would fund a global jackbooted union thug organization as a favor to exploited workers abroad instead.

3. I don't like one-stop-shopping places, like Wal-Mart, Meijer, Target, etc. They seem to be set up to fool a consumer into thinking that he is getting better deals, but in terms of quality (and sometimes even price), my experience has been the contrary, usually, AND it seems that it is easier to get carried away by the convenience and spend more money that what one planned. I am currently reading a book called The Wal-Mart Effect and it is fascinating the ways in which a company has changed the way business is done, and I think that overall it is bad for America to shop that way, culturally.

4. CHeap foreign goods and big marketing give the lower/middle classes in America the illusion that they, too, are rich. When a poor person can walk into a store (like the Dollar Tree), load up a cart, and not have to keep track of how much he is spending, he can pretend he is rich for the moment. He can forget his poverty for a sec. I see much of the lower classes in America trying to be something they are not, by consuming great amounts of cheap imports, and easy lines of credit/no savings. It seems a tool (along with expanding government programs) for the poor to forget they are poor. I don't like this, because it is not building wealth for them- it does nothing to address their economic status, it does not bring them up. It gives them an opportunity to play dress-up in their mom's clothes and nothing more. I am concerned about this because every drunk binge brings a hangover eventually........ and I wonder how hard the hangover will be, and how to salvage what is left of the middle/lower classes' values.

5. Cheaply made products at cheap prices and big marketing, to me, lead people to look at things as disposable. Things which they once did not. This concerns me for our landfills in America, among other things. How many VCR's can we throw away? How many plastic products can we dump in there and forget about? How many sofas can we really leave out at the curb? These things really do still exist after the trash guy hauls them away on trash day. I think this is a dangerous attitude for a society to have, and the disposable mentality is bad for one's soul.
For this reason, I will take an item that is made overseas that someone gives me, for it is better to put something to use, or pass along to someone who will, than to bury it in a hole and buy another.

[NeilUnreal]

Cheap foreign goods and big marketing give the lower/middle classes in America the illusion that they, too, are rich.

5 Pearls. :thumb:

If I have one pair of sturdy shoes in decade, both I and expert shoemaker can eat well. If I buy three pairs of cheap sneakers in a year, both I and the factory workers may go hungry.

-Neil

[decoski]

This is a good time to ressurect this thread. I needed to vent about the recent Chinese products flooding our market that are dangerous to health. First it was the poisoned dog food, then the toothpaste, and now it hits home and I am mad! We recently had to send back two of my son's Thomas and Friends train toys that were recalled because of lead paint, and now we had to throw out my daughter's vinyl bib because of ANOTHER made in China recall due to lead paint. Mattel just put out a long list of toys recalled because of lead and dangerous small magnets and fortunately - at least so far - none of my childrens' toys are on that list. What a great opportunity for some business to advertise "SAFE MADE IN THE USA" toys!

[Tladatsi]

Seems like every product I buy these days has "Made In China" stamped on it. That reality didn't really set in until I recently purchased some new K2 brand skis. They used to pride themselves in being made in the USA, but now - you guessed it - made in China. Now, I don't pretend to be an economist, but it seems to me that outsourcing jobs to China will have negative implications for the United States economy, if it hasn't already. Am I wrong here? If so, why?

Well first off, they made in China FOR US BASED CORPORATIONS. The Chinese do not make these things on their own. The reason is of course labor costs, they would have to pay a US worker 15 $ an hour while they can pay Chinese workers 0.15$ an hour. The machinery used to make these products costs the same here as there. There are no environmental protection or worker safety laws worth speaking about so there are saving there. This out sourcing has certainly resulted in the loss of plenty of jobs for semi-skilled workers. The real income of ordinary working people in the US has remained stagnant for several decades. So yes, there are negative impacts on many people in the US.

[decoski]

Well first off, they made in China FOR US BASED CORPORATIONS. The Chinese do not make these things on their own. The reason is of course labor costs, they would have to pay a US worker 15 $ an hour while they can pay Chinese workers 0.15$ an hour. The machinery used to make these products costs the same here as there. There are no environmental protection or worker safety laws worth speaking about so there are saving there. This out sourcing has certainly resulted in the loss of plenty of jobs for semi-skilled workers. The real income of ordinary working people in the US has remained stagnant for several decades. So yes, there are negative impacts on many people in the US.

With all the recent recalls of lead paint and with the inevitable backlash of parents against the loose environmental laws, the companies will pay for their negligence.

[Storico]

I'm a fan of fair trade, not free trade. It seems that free trade agreements have resulted in all of these products coming over from factories that have far less stringent, careful policies on what goes into the manufacture of toys, and when you combine that with workers who are paid very poorly and not looked after well, you're going to have toys that are mass-manufactured while being unsafe for use. Having no foresight at all in order to cheaply make something like a toy (which just happens to have lead paint on it) or a food product or whatever WILL result in problems later.

It's odd, walking past stores here that all have signs up somewhere saying either "none of our Mattel products have been affected" or "we are deeply sorry for the inconvenience of having to recall.... (fill in blank)".

It doesn't matter to me that it's China. It could be anywhere with cheap labour, environmental and safety policies, and it would still be a huge problem. That's why I tend to favour fair trade over free trade. Workers working in an environment where the pay is better and the safety standards and environmental policies are higher will tend to produce products that are safer and less likely to ever need to get recalled.

[Teallaura]

I suspect, at least in the short term, Mattel lost a lot more than it gained - a good rep in the toy business is pretty important.

[Nicholas]

Reminds me of something I posted about a while back about people dying in Panama because the manufacturer in China used a toxic substitute because it was cheaper than the substance that was safe for human consumption.

A link to the article can be found here:http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=96499&highlight=China

[Teallaura]

Yeah, China is getting a horrendous reputation. I'm actively looking for Made in America - or anywhere but China - labels. I actually feed my dog one can of the recalled dog food - that was close enough, thanks (Scooter is fine, and yes, I took him to the vet).

[Zeluvia]

I don't think it's a matter of not counting the energy cost (as ry said, that's factored in) as it is a matter of counting the regulation cost.

What that tells me is that because of extensive regulation, labor laws, unions, environmental laws, minimum wage laws, OSHA, ADA, etc., etc., ad naseum the cost of manufacturing here in the U.S. is so exorbitantly out of line with the market that we are doing ridiculous things like you've described.

I don't think your observation is the result as Ry suggested of you thinking you know better than the market how much energy should cost, that's a result of the government thinking it knows better than the market how much labor should cost, and how much the labor market values safety and this and that and how much consumers value the environment. The chinese government allows their industry to perform without as strict regulation because they know they're at war economically with the U.S.

Yes, an energy crunch would be disastrous for China, which is why they're presently in competition with us all around the globe to secure future oil reserves.

The problem is, because of so many years of ridiculous behavior resulting from market interference, we owe China billions and billions of dollars worth of something. So when push comes to a shove over who gets the oil, the gravy train of handing them paper dollars for all our doormats and wall clocks and home decor trinkets and all that cr$$ nobody really needed anyway (but they bought because walmart had such 'great prices') is going to end, and they're going to demand something besides paper and promises in return. Either they'll own the whole U.S. of A, or we'll go to war in order to avoid making good on our debts.

Someone in this thread said it was American companies manufacturing things in China because it is cheaper.

After the toothpaste, dog food, and childrens toys debacles do we still think regulation for safe products, safe enviroment, and safe working conditions is an excessive economic burden given the recent rash of questionable practices by American companies operating in China?

[nomad]

There's no reason regulations couldn't apply as easily to the products themselves as they do the process by which it was produced. However, I am not completely unhappy with how things are turning out; I just hope nobody gets hurt in the process. China is learning the costs of cutting costs. Since they want to stay in business with the US, natural market forces are going to start pressuring them to increase quality controls and safeguards in their process. This without any intervention from the Chinese government, which isn't passing laws to regulate this (and some believe that the bureaucracy is out of control and corrupt enough it would be difficult to enforce them anyways). This should lead to better products overall, without resorting to any xenophobia. By the same token, whatever manufacturers caused these recalls will likely be out of business soon, leaving room for others who will make better - and safer - products.

Along those same lines, I am wondering why more companies don't get on the bandwagon of advertising their 'humane' production processes, or if they do, why don't they advertise it better. There is much precedent that enough people are willing to pay 'premium' prices for this sort of 'badge of honor'; just look at organic produce, which has been both an environmental and economic success.

[decoski]

Oh goodie, ANOTHER toy recall from Matell came out yesterday. Luckily, my kids don't have these toys.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, China is getting a horrendous reputation. I'm actively looking for Made in America - or anywhere but China - labels.Of course, Made in America, doesn't necessarily mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal) Made in "the United States"ish.

[decoski]

Well, well, well. Surprise, surprise. ANOTHER recall! Guess where it's made? http://www.kansascity.com/382/story/285659.html

[Ryokan]

Well its good to see protectionism, paranoia, and populism continue to go strong here at Tweb even without me to provoke them.

[Teallaura]

:brood: I'm the one who had to pay the vet bill to have my dog checked out after he ate some of that contaminated food. Parents buy Mattel fully expecting those toys to be safe. Those weren't minor recalls - not a 'oops, that little part might come off, ship it back, we'll fix it' but a 'sorry about your dead dog or cat and don't worry, the lead probably wasn't enough to brain damage your child'. But hey, we missed out on losing family members to toothpaste like they did in South America.

If being leery of products produced in a nation that was infamous for cutting corners before all this happened and which has been involved in so many major recalls of indisputably dangerous products is 'protectionism' then count me in!

Yeah, I'm paranoid - that pet food thing scared the daylights out of me! Do you have any idea what it feels like to find out you may have fed your pet poison? It's a lovely feeling you can savor as you drive 30 miles to the vet. Tell ya what, if you think I'm being paranoid I'll send you the vet bill - luckily for you, I have a fairly inexpensive vet...

Populism: unwilling to trust products from a nation that has an increasingly bad safety track record. Hmmm, never heard that definition before...

:brood:

[Ryokan]

:brood: I'm the one who had to pay the vet bill to have my dog checked out after he ate some of that contaminated food. Parents buy Mattel fully expecting those toys to be safe. Those weren't minor recalls - not a 'oops, that little part might come off, ship it back, we'll fix it' but a 'sorry about your dead dog or cat and don't worry, the lead probably wasn't enough to brain damage your child'. But hey, we missed out on losing family members to toothpaste like they did in South America.

If being leery of products produced in a nation that was infamous for cutting corners before all this happened and which has been involved in so many major recalls of indisputably dangerous products is 'protectionism' then count me in!

Yeah, I'm paranoid - that pet food thing scared the daylights out of me! Do you have any idea what it feels like to find out you may have fed your pet poison? It's a lovely feeling you can savor as you drive 30 miles to the vet. Tell ya what, if you think I'm being paranoid I'll send you the vet bill - luckily for you, I have a fairly inexpensive vet...

Populism: unwilling to trust products from a nation that has an increasingly bad safety track record. Hmmm, never heard that definition before...

:brood:
I bought the pet food too. I no longer by that brand. But most factories in China are fine, Teal. My parents had bad firestones. Does this mean they should only get German tires now?

[nomad]

The answer is clear... I just need to stop buying things, since everything I buy can potentially kill me :)

[Teallaura]

I bought the pet food too. I no longer by that brand. But most factories in China are fine, Teal. My parents had bad firestones. Does this mean they should only get German tires now?
Are they? Seriously, you can't know that - the surveillance for incoming products is a joke. And if the problem wasn't isolated then yeah, I'd seriously rethink using Firestone - just as you no longer buy that pet food. As I said before, these aren't minor recalls but major safety concerns and they keep happening.

It's not a particular company but numerous different ones. Something stinks in Denmark and I'm not inclined to risk my safety or anyone else's until someone finds out what that is - and eliminates it. I'm dubious that can be done as the problems China has are more wide spread than a few unscrupulous companies. And for the record, I'd feel the same way if such recalls were coming out of a particular state in the Union.

[Teallaura]

The answer is clear... I just need to stop buying things, since everything I buy can potentially kill me :)
Wanna try some Chinese toothpaste?

Seriously, you guys realize you're only gonna exacerbate the problem by downplaying or dismissing people's legitimate concerns, right?

[Ryokan]

Are they? Seriously, you can't know that - the surveillance for incoming products is a joke. And if the problem wasn't isolated then yeah, I'd seriously rethink using Firestone - just as you no longer buy that pet food. As I said before, these aren't minor recalls but major safety concerns and they keep happening.

It's not a particular company but numerous different ones. Something stinks in Denmark and I'm not inclined to risk my safety or anyone else's until someone finds out what that is - and eliminates it. I'm dubious that can be done as the problems China has are more wide spread than a few unscrupulous companies. And for the record, I'd feel the same way if such recalls were coming out of a particular state in the Union.

I'll tell you what stinks in Denmark, Teal. China manufactures more things than anyone else in the world, and is still a third world country with a third world country infrastructure. The odds of getting a dangerous product are not worse than any other such country. CHina jsut does it big when it happens because China IS big, And yes, you can only buy AMerican. But the odds are small lightening will strike you twice from China. But if yolu have a very low risk tolerance its your business. I am more interested in decoski than you.

[Teallaura]

I don't like killing my pets - so sue me. I still think poo-pooing legit concerns exacerbates the problem you're trying to counteract. All you've done is convince me that no one is taking this seriously - and that makes it all the more disturbing.

For the record, I buy Toyotas from here on out - they are the better mouse trap and I'm not worried that it'll collapse on me in a fender bender. I am all for fair competition as I think it's good for both countries. I am not, however, going to buy stuff from a country I know has serious safety issues since I can't differentiate between the good companies you say exist and the bad ones that keep sending out deadly items. If that's low risk tolerance then you're right, I don't have much tolerance for products I normally trust killing people. Lightning keeps striking - your chances of getting hit twice increase dramatically if you're stupid enough to stand outside in a thunderstorm.

I'm pretty sure your kids won't be getting a race car from the movie Cars this year - and Mattel is normally a trusted brand.

You realize that as China's reputation worsens the very position (decoski's) you say interests you more will gain more and more political traction, right?

[Ryokan]

My son will get Mattel cars. Frankly, after all this, if Mattel has another recall I'll eat my shoes. They want to stay in business. The serious action needed is more inspectors here in the US. China's toy division has thousands of people checking exports. Ours has 1.

[Teallaura]

... The serious action needed is more inspectors here in the US. China's toy division has thousands of people checking exports. Ours has 1.
Agreed.

So, why the pet food but not Mattel's Cars line?

[Ryokan]

Agreed.

So, why the pet food but not Mattel's Cars line?

The alternative pet food is cheaper and of equal quality. The alternative cars break to easy. No one died from the cars. Above all else my wife is not always a rational actor.:teeth:

[nomad]

I expect to see China, like any good capitalist entity, start showing a lot more interest in quality control. Their buyers (american and european companies) are going to start demanding demanding it, as they themselves come up against the very attitude you exhibit. You might even see some executions in China. The biggest problem there is that there isn't much governmental oversight there (even if the government wanted to, they just don't have that much control over the whole country).

Anyways, my point was actually serious... brands used to mean quality control: if Mattel puts its name on it, I expect it to be safe for my kids. And that fell apart here. But if it happened once to Mattel, how do I know it won't happen again, even if it says 'made in (other country than china)'? We're looking at China, but that's just the biggest. What about Malaysia? Thailand? Singapore? etc. It could even happen here in the US, though it is probably far less likely.

I see what you are saying might be valid as a risk reduction strategy, though. But is it possible to completely avoid risk today? It should be, but it seems like it isn't.

[Teallaura]

The alternative pet food is cheaper and of equal quality. The alternative cars break to easy. You have no idea what Cars I'm talking about, do you? :hrm: Are they even licensed anywhere else?

Just a note (as I realize there weren't any deaths associated with that - yet) lead poisoning is nasty business and it takes weeks to complete testing. Some parents are already having to go through that - waiting to know whether or not their kids were damaged by the lead. I doubt it (lead poisoning usually takes higher quantities) unless a child was particularly sensitive but it's still nerve wracking for the parents.

No one died from the cars. Above all else my wife is not always a rational actor.:teeth:I'm telling her you said that! :grin:


I see what you are saying might be valid as a risk reduction strategy, though. But is it possible to completely avoid risk today? It should be, but it seems like it isn't.I don't expect to completely avoid risk - but I also don't see a point in standing on the train tracks when there's a perfectly good trail next to it. they killed people with tooth paste and I may have already poisoned my dog - no more for me, thanks, I'm driving...

I'll reconsider in a few years IF they have gotten their act together...

[Crow]

Here's another side of the story. I buy some of the stones for my part time jewelry business from China. Directly from China, in fact.

About 99% of what I buy is turquoise. Chinese turquoise is less expensive than American turquoise. Part of this is no doubt due to the differences in labor costs, but part of this is due to the differences in appearance. Compared to American mined turquoise, much Chinese turquoise is positively wild. The most expensive stuff is fairly close in price to it's American counterpart, but the turquoise I've come to love is the turquoise which is less expensive and doesn't sell as well here because it doesn't look the way most people think turquoise should look. Near florescent blues and greens and golds splashed together on a black matrix are common. It makes what we commonly think of as "good turquoise" look sick.

I've made the aquaintance of several Chinese merchants, and one of them has become a good friend. We swap stuff back and forth on occasion- my hand made sterling findings for his stones. He is a reminder that honesty and good character know no borders.

I wouldn't buy every product from every Chinese merchant, just as there is a meat market within walking distance that I would not patronize to purchase meat for dogs. Chinese people have different customs, but they are exactly like us in one respect. Some of them are honest; some are not.

My own practice is this--when I find good people with a good product, I buy from them whether they are next door or halfway around the world. I buy supplies from good merchants in this country and in several others. I'm sure this is not how some view it, but I personally don't buy from countries. I buy from people. I would rather conduct business on the basis of honesty and trust than on where someone lives. China has some slipshod dishonest manufacturers. It also has some who are a joy to deal with and who provide excellent goods and take pride in what they produce.