Violence in schools an in public in general

[Keepupthefire]

I have been aching to ask this question for awhile. I just want to see what other TWebers believe really. I haven't looked in-depth to see if there where any other threads like this so forgive me the duplication if any.

I remember hearing about a time when school teachers handed out jack-knives to students an it was never something people had to worry about back when this nation was forming. Daniel Webster is who I refer to. One of the tasks that the school teacher(Master James Tappan) had given to students was to memorize as much scripture as possible an whomever remembered the most was to recieve the jack-knife.

Forward ahead, to the future. Now tell me would this be possible given the circumstances as they are now?

What has changed? What reasons can we give that in the past people where trusted with jack-knives but now they would be suspended for concealing such an object now?

I have my own beliefs which I will not omit at this time. I will hear out the the beliefs of others before I omit my own.

[quaist]

I think, that the media and the political propaganda are part of this new culture of violence. Turn on the TV, and you have the option:

1) Reality TV

2) Violence Movies

3) Love Stories

4) News (which are very rare on certain programmes which are mostly consumed by teenagers)

Violence has become a less shocking thing, because you can see violence, war and blood on a flat screen nowadays. Teenagers are very influenced by the media they consume and the video games they play - this is fact. Through the new media, violence and other perversitites is given a platform to bring this material under lots of people.

But now, I would be glad to hear your opinion about this issue. :smile:

[NeilUnreal]

The chain of inter-personal knowledge and accountability have broken down. Modern cities, neighborhoods, and schools are like interchangeable boxes holding large numbers of anonymous individuals as a form of human commodity.

It's more difficult to be violent towards others when we see them as beings and not just "things," and it's more difficult still when they are not just beings, but rather specific, named beings with whom we share a history and life.

At one point in our history, everything was seen as a kind of being: not merely people and animals, but even individual mountains, trees, etc., and individual cultural things like buildings and bowls. Individual things had identities. Then, we began stripping them of identities and making them abstractions. Eventually, we lost the sense of "beingness" of those things, and now we are similarly losing the sense of "beingness" towards other humans.

And when you lose the sense of "beingness" towards other things, you are no longer a being yourself. Anomie prevails, and we can no longer be trusted with sharp objects.

-Neil

[Barry Desborough]

The chain of inter-personal knowledge and accountability have broken down. Modern cities, neighborhoods, and schools are like interchangeable boxes holding large numbers of anonymous individuals as a form of human commodity.

-Neil

I'd echo that. I have the fortune to live in a rural area where generations of families tend to remain in place. People are not crowded together. They are not strangers to each other. It's not paradise - there are still people who don't get along, but generally, people do tend to help each other out in all sorts of ways. They do not see themselves in serious competition with each other. I'm increasingly of the opinion that this is the 'natural' way of life for human beings.

In conservation zoos, every effort is made to ensure that species are provided with the best approximation to a natural environment. This is especially important for social species. But people are increasingly forced to live as rootless transients surrounded by strangers. Social bonds are destroyed. Other people are just 'things' that get in the way.

[Teallaura]

It's the loss of community, I suspect, that let's us fall (easier) prey to the negative influences around us. (True of adults as well as kids - it's just more apparent in the kids, I suspect).

There's a book about the history of abortion, Olansky is the author, I think*. Anyway, his chapter on the differences between the family/community life when the America's were settled (yeah, yeah, by Europeans for you detail nazi's :brood:) and the modern counterparts is particularly interesting and I think may account for more ills than just the one his book discusses.


_______________________________
I'm too lazy to go get it for the title and author, but if someone wants it, say so and I'll dig it out.

[Ryokan]

Can I ask a question? Is this really true? Were their more or less incidence of violent crime per capita 50 years ago? 100? 500? 1000? 5000? 10000? Everyone assumes this is true, but I am not sure if I buy it? Also, how do we test this idea of community as a deterent against violent crime?

[Ryokan]

As a small piece of evidence here, presumably our society is more comparmentalized now than it was 30 odd years ago. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
However, violent crime rates are lower. Much lower, in fact.

[Ryokan]

I am thinking maybe part of the reason we see less crime right now compared to 20 years ago is the aging population. Older people commit fewer crimes. But I don't know how much of an effect this actually has. And in rural, traditional communities, people have more kids, boosting the chance of violence occuring. So..... I don't know. its a confusing issue.

[Dwevlo]

I agree with Ryokan, I don't know about schools, but society in general is much less violent then it used to be. I'm gonna say that one major reason for this is that the dominant culture in the South, Redneckism, is a dying culture. Redneck culture relished violence from its earliest beginnings. The slightest stepping on the toes of pride, would lead to dramatic dueling. That coupled with the love of competition without any thinking of consequence, equals a violent society.

But thats probably enough political incorrectness for one day...

[NeilUnreal]

The OP asked a specific question: “What has changed? What reasons can we give that in the past people where trusted with jack-knives but now they would be suspended for concealing such an object now?”

So the question is not just about violence vs. no-violence. The question is: why have we lost the context in which we can trust each other to be neighbors?

In a context in which we are neighbors, we can trust each other to behave in predictable ways. Most neighbors will be non-violent, but even in that context, some will be violent. The difference is, we know who can be trusted with the knife and who cannot. Since we have lost that context, our only solution is to trust no one.

-Neil

[Ryokan]

The OP asked a specific question: “What has changed? What reasons can we give that in the past people where trusted with jack-knives but now they would be suspended for concealing such an object now?”

So the question is not just about violence vs. no-violence. The question is: why have we lost the context in which we can trust each other to be neighbors?

In a context in which we are neighbors, we can trust each other to behave in predictable ways. Most neighbors will be non-violent, but even in that context, some will be violent. The difference is, we know who can be trusted with the knife and who cannot. Since we have lost that context, our only solution is to trust no one.

-Neil
I'll agree with that.

[Rubia Warren]

The chain of inter-personal knowledge and accountability have broken down. Modern cities, neighborhoods, and schools are like interchangeable boxes holding large numbers of anonymous individuals as a form of human commodity.



*sheds tear* Yet another Bette Midler moment I am having. Carry on..... nothing to see here.... *sob*

[LindaK]

While I don't think that violence is more prevalent today than in any other age of man (and for those who would balk at that...and wo-man).

I might; however, believe that people have become more de-sensitized to it. We are exposed to so much actual world wide violence in real time...the beheadings of teachers in a Baghdad school (in FRONT of the students) a few weeks ago...the wars, the deaths, the children disfigured...and this is all happening. Now add books, movies, video games...

Still, my brothers played with G.I.Joe and Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots...(and no longer politically correct Cowboys & Indians).

I am not an advocator of violence of any kind. That is not to say that I might not someday find a need to resort to it for some unseen reason. When and where was this jack knife handing out? I missed that completely (as well I probably should have), but why was this done? Years ago I was called to pick up my daughter from high school (10th grade) because she had torn her hem and used a safety pin to fasten it together. She was embarrassed enough at all of this, but was sent home because she was in possession of a weapon!!!!!

This topic reminds me of a subject that concerns one of the most (to my mind) misunderstood New Testament Bible verses…but rather than hi-jack this thread…I’ll start its own, if I can figure out where the best place for it is.

[Ben Franklin]

If a society's structure no longer encourages social interaction, then it's time for that society to disband or re-think it's purpose. Where individual dangers outweigh benefits, it's time for either isolation or relocation. The world is big.

[Keepupthefire]

I would like to first apologize for not getting here sooner..Tweb never notified me of this thread having been replied to. I got lucky seeing that people have replied.

I think one of the reasons people have become untrustworthy is that people back in Websters time where too busy really to do anything bad. Thats certainly true about me. I sin more when I'm alone an bored.

I'm sure times where much more rugged, and disciplined. Belongings where valued more because they actually where worked for. Kids today get everything for free it seems. Respect has been lost.

I also agree with television an other modern entertainments have sapped many of our childrens futures away. People who read rather than watch television as children tend to have better attention spans, as well as memory. Television can stunt growth in education causing learning disabilities, attention deficit disorders, which can all lead to fustration, poverty, an eventually violence. I am an example of this. I personally know this through experience. My memory is horrible.

I have a friend who didn't have time for anything else but work on the farm an raising his own brothers an sisters. His father died when he was 5 years old leaving him, his sister, mother an I think two other brothers. He was the eldest. He spent his early years cooking the meals an running the farm. He did read a lot of books. He could name all the calves, and the sires they came from which in itself is amazing. I've noticed this also in other situations.

It is imparitive that we safeguard our children from violence, and too much of television period. I will never have an child that is in my power watch t.v. everyday. They will learn to balance reading with good sports, fishing, an other wholesome activities first. If you wish children to be educated properely then don't let them watch excessive t.v. This is personnal for myself for I regret that I wasn't brought up right. I struggled in school, I was learning disabled, emotionally disabled for a time. I was a violent adolescent. I spent most of my adolescence in foster care, and group homes.

The removal of scripture from the public schools has had a profound impact as well. Webster was a restrained, an smart child to be able to wield a jack-knife in school.

The New-England Primer(1690) was the first printed text book printed in America. Benjamin Harris intruduced it. This was one of the greatest books (alongside the Bible) ever published in America. This book an the bible where taught diligently to the Puritan Fathers children. America's foundation was built upon the bible an this book. We can see for ourselves the consequence of their removal. If children wher allowed to meditate upon God's word we could eliminate much of the violence we see today.

Thanks,

Shawn